Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 09:46:45AM -0400, Stephen Powell uttered: You're welcome to search our archives. But don't post here unless you run Debian, want to know how your system works, and are willing to help others as well as yourself. I'm not trying to be unkind. I have nothing against you personally. But it is not fair for you to run another OS and then come over here asking for free help. This is not a forum for users of all 250+ Debian-derived distributions. This is a *Debian* forum. Period. +1 Agreed, said far better than I could have stated. I've been seeing the sudo approach come up in answers more frequently; which is usually the giveaway. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100412142725.gb2...@google.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Saturday 10 April 2010 22:12:04 Dotan Cohen wrote: On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Stephen Powell put forth on 4/8/2010 9:38 PM: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. [snip] I only use Linux for non-GUI servers. I don't use desktop Linux. All my admin'ing requires knuckle busting. ;) And I like it that way. But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? Recently I was trying to show my 15 year old granddaughter, who runs Open SuSU 11 on her laptop, how to do some small admin job. She said that she didn't want to know. When I queried this, she said: When I am at school, the IT department does it for me. When I am at home here, you do it for me. When I am in Japan, Daddy does it for me. Why do I need to know how to do it? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201004110756.10207.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Lisi put forth on 4/11/2010 1:56 AM: On Saturday 10 April 2010 22:12:04 Dotan Cohen wrote: On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Stephen Powell put forth on 4/8/2010 9:38 PM: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. [snip] I only use Linux for non-GUI servers. I don't use desktop Linux. All my admin'ing requires knuckle busting. ;) And I like it that way. But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? Recently I was trying to show my 15 year old granddaughter, who runs Open SuSU 11 on her laptop, how to do some small admin job. She said that she didn't want to know. When I queried this, she said: When I am at school, the IT department does it for me. When I am at home here, you do it for me. When I am in Japan, Daddy does it for me. Why do I need to know how to do it? That sound like a perfect teachable moment. How did you answer your granddaughter? -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bc17faf.2080...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On 11/04/10 07:56 +0100, Lisi wrote: Recently I was trying to show my 15 year old granddaughter, who runs Open SuSU 11 on her laptop, how to do some small admin job. She said that she didn't want to know. When I queried this, she said: When I am at school, the IT department does it for me. When I am at home here, you do it for me. When I am in Japan, Daddy does it for me. Why do I need to know how to do it? I really think this would be the right approach for many, even windows and macos users. If your car needs maintenance most people ask a mechanic or at least somebody who knows what (s)he is doing. have a nice day Rolf -- ... Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' ... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100411073012.gc11...@vzsze.de
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? Recently I was trying to show my 15 year old granddaughter, who runs Open SuSU 11 on her laptop, how to do some small admin job. She said that she didn't want to know. When I queried this, she said: When I am at school, the IT department does it for me. When I am at home here, you do it for me. When I am in Japan, Daddy does it for me. Why do I need to know how to do it? That is the kind of user who can learn! If the small admin job had been diagnose kernel crashes and her answer would have been I am a brain surgeon, not a computer scientist. I fix the brain, you fix the computer. Today is the one day off that I have to spend with my family and I don't want to spend it with the computer instead. then her reluctance would have been valid. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k2h880dece01004110102oc3af0a16gdbc6dd4c64844...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? They want the computer to be as transparent as possible in their workflow. If they don't wont to learn they don't have. That's way there is PC service. Tell me how much of them know solution for some bigger Ms Windows problem? Are they bitching around how Ms Windows is hard to use? No they call PC service to fix their problem and that is perfectly normal, but when it is the same situation with Linux then Linux is OS for sys admins, hackers, etc. Can you remember how are you feel when you got first box? I can. I was wondering what means little picture of house in IE, and I was to afraid to click because I didn't know would it make some black magic and fuck up my box :-) My first Linux was Debian Lenny Beta. And now I wasn't frighten to click that little house in Konqueror. And also I notice if you put your right mouse on something that there is Copy, Paste, Delete... I was start to thinking why people talk that Linux is so different and hard to learn? Why people talk that Debian is one of the harder Linux distro? And yes I was pissing blood for 2 days because I didn't know how to tell Lenny that there is new HDD in box. But finally I find solution. How many Ms Windows end users know to put HDD in box, format, set up jumpers etc.? What is difference in clicking on VLC (or Firefox, OO, GIMP) in Linux or Windows? Are they born with knowledge of using Ms Office? No they learn to use it. Second example: My friend is 43yo. He got first box (Windows XP) before 2y. I learn him how to use it because he didn't know absolutely nothing. Before 3 month he both laptop and I install Squeeze. I was just say to him Look here is 'K' this is 'Start from XP' and here are all programs. After few days he told me Woow it's much easer to use and it is much faster, there is no reboot, no manual app. installation and loop of Next. That Linux is really good! Of course he doesn't know how to do some sys. stuff but he is just end user. Does he know install Ms Windows? No, he is end user. So whats the point or conclusion? If you are end user it's the same. If something go to hell call your friend or PC service. If you wont more than that learn it. If you can learn it in Ms Windows you can on Linux to. -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bc183be.8000...@dobosevic.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? They want the computer to be as transparent as possible in their workflow. If they don't wont to learn they don't have. That's way there is PC service. Tell me how much of them know solution for some bigger Ms Windows problem? Are they bitching around how Ms Windows is hard to use? No they call PC service to fix their problem and that is perfectly normal, but when it is the same situation with Linux then Linux is OS for sys admins, hackers, etc. No, these are normal everyday people who don't know what Windows or what Linux is. They have a problem, they call me. No bitching, no blaming. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/t2m880dece01004110218x6515cd5dl82128b9b5674d...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sunday 11 April 2010 09:02:49 you wrote: But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? Recently I was trying to show my 15 year old granddaughter, who runs Open SuSU 11 on her laptop, how to do some small admin job. She said that she didn't want to know. When I queried this, she said: When I am at school, the IT department does it for me. When I am at home here, you do it for me. When I am in Japan, Daddy does it for me. Why do I need to know how to do it? That is the kind of user who can learn! Of course! That is why I was trying to show her. If the small admin job had been diagnose kernel crashes and her answer would have been I am a brain surgeon, not a computer scientist. I fix the brain, you fix the computer. Today is the one day off that I have to spend with my family and I don't want to spend it with the computer instead. then her reluctance would have been valid. I was, I thought, supporting your view that most/many people simply don't _want_ to know. Why does their reluctance have to be valid? Are you saying that only those who want to learn to administer it should be allowed to use Linux? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100419.33913.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
No, these are normal everyday people who don't know what Windows or what Linux is. They have a problem, they call me. No bitching, no blaming. In that case there is no really meter what they have. Only you will do him a big favor if you put Debian because in that case they will be much safer from virus's and it's much easier to open synaptic, hit refresh button, upgrade and apply then manually download all app. and next, next, next, reboot. From my experience it is really much easier to have Debian then Windows. They will call you less :-) -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bc1a159.5050...@dobosevic.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun,11.Apr.10, 12:15:53, godo wrote: In that case there is no really meter what they have. Only you will do him a big favor if you put Debian because in that case they will be much safer from virus's and it's much easier to open synaptic, hit refresh button, upgrade and apply then manually download all app. and next, next, next, reboot. From my experience it is really much easier to have Debian then Windows. They will call you less :-) Sure, but first you have to take care at least of these issues: * proprietary drivers (if applicable and/or needed) * multimedia stuff (add debian-multimedia repos) * backports for: - wicd or network-manager (if applicable, especially since network-manager in lenny is too old) - flashplugin-nonfree - newer apps if needed (OOo, ...) Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Are you saying that only those who want to learn to administer it should be allowed to use Linux? No, no, not at all. It may have been like that once, but today anyone can pick it up and use it. Maintain and fix it, no, but use it until problems arise, most certainly. And for some distros, there are much fewer problems per usage hour than even the Big W. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/k2y880dece01004110348s3a5cb07fo5b8196af8e708...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
No, these are normal everyday people who don't know what Windows or what Linux is. They have a problem, they call me. No bitching, no blaming. In that case there is no really meter what they have. Only you will do him a big favor if you put Debian because in that case they will be much safer from virus's and it's much easier to open synaptic, hit refresh button, upgrade and apply then manually download all app. and next, next, next, reboot. From my experience it is really much easier to have Debian then Windows. They will call you less :-) That is exactly what I do! However, I use a Debian derivative as it has slightly better hardware support out of the box and more up-to-date packages than straight Debian. That is exactly what this thread is about. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/p2g880dece01004110349x335b1dcdx88bdf3472c07f...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Sure, but first you have to take care at least of these issues: * proprietary drivers (if applicable and/or needed) * multimedia stuff (add debian-multimedia repos) * backports for: - wicd or network-manager (if applicable, especially since network-manager in lenny is too old) - flashplugin-nonfree - newer apps if needed (OOo, ...) Regards, Andrei Of course but it is necessary step with Windows or any other OS also. But after that anybody can update with Synaptic. -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bc1b294.3070...@dobosevic.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 11:49, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: That is exactly what I do! However, I use a Debian derivative as it has slightly better hardware support out of the box and more up-to-date packages than straight Debian. That is exactly what this thread is about. For personal use i prefer Debian, i really dislike the sudo approach and all the pampering (as dislike big desktop environments regardless of my über hardware). Wanting to look under the hood is why i tried Linux in the first place (some old redhat i didn't like). Distros like Ubuntu are good in that they are much more end-user friendly and are good advertising tools - provided the issues Andrei Popescu mentioned are dealt with; as people already stated, end-users don't care about open source or GPL or the evil Mr Gates, they want stuff that Just Works™. As long as the user is willing to tolerate a slight aesthetic change, it's a go. However, the more these distros become windows-ised the more i get this eerie feeling i can't quite name, maybe history repeating? My 2¢ -- () ascii-rubanda kampajno - kontraŭ html-a retpoŝto /\ ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/v2r6b1504c41004110437p3113b149ubad817b7f7868...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 12:29, godo go...@dobosevic.com wrote: Sure, but first you have to take care at least of these issues: * proprietary drivers (if applicable and/or needed) * multimedia stuff (add debian-multimedia repos) * backports for: - wicd or network-manager (if applicable, especially since network-manager in lenny is too old) - flashplugin-nonfree - newer apps if needed (OOo, ...) Regards, Andrei Of course but it is necessary step with Windows or any other OS also. But after that anybody can update with Synaptic. No. In windows this is 100% transparent to the user, since all the hardware vendors provide all the drivers. Seldom does a winuser have to do any hardware config or so much as use the installation CD. Windows update will do it for them. (Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Red Hat some 10years ago have a tray icon for updates like XP now does?) -- () ascii-rubanda kampajno - kontraŭ html-a retpoŝto /\ ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/u2n6b1504c41004110440l7cbb0569j17a3a19171cbd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Nuno Magalhães wrote: On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 12:29, godo go...@dobosevic.com wrote: Sure, but first you have to take care at least of these issues: * proprietary drivers (if applicable and/or needed) * multimedia stuff (add debian-multimedia repos) * backports for: - wicd or network-manager (if applicable, especially since network-manager in lenny is too old) - flashplugin-nonfree - newer apps if needed (OOo, ...) Regards, Andrei Of course but it is necessary step with Windows or any other OS also. But after that anybody can update with Synaptic. No. In windows this is 100% transparent to the user, since all the hardware vendors provide all the drivers. Correct, but that doesn't mean that drivers will perfectly work and easy to install and configure for average user. Seldom does a winuser have to do any hardware config or so much as use the installation CD. Windows update will do it for them. Unless Windows update broke your Windows :-) Remember SP2 and SP3 on XP? Or your Vista think that Lenovo WiFi drivers are evil and block them. (Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Red Hat some 10years ago have a tray icon for updates like XP now does?) I wish i know before 10y what is Red Hat! -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bc1baf4.5010...@dobosevic.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 07:56:10AM +0100, Lisi wrote: On Saturday 10 April 2010 22:12:04 Dotan Cohen wrote: On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Stephen Powell put forth on 4/8/2010 9:38 PM: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. [snip] I only use Linux for non-GUI servers. I don't use desktop Linux. All my admin'ing requires knuckle busting. ;) And I like it that way. But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? Recently I was trying to show my 15 year old granddaughter, who runs Open SuSU 11 on her laptop, how to do some small admin job. She said that she didn't want to know. When I queried this, she said: When I am at school, the IT department does it for me. When I am at home here, you do it for me. When I am in Japan, Daddy does it for me. Why do I need to know how to do it? The best answer I can think of is so that you don't get financially abused by the people who do know how to do it. Whenever kids ask why they need to learn math, I tell them at the very least, you need to know that the person behind the counter at McDonald's is giving you the correct change. Learning something doesn't mean you have to be an expert, or that you have to do it all the time. But knowledge is power, and it seems silly to actively avoid knowledge, as so many people seem to do. (By the way, Lisi, this is not directed at your granddaughter -- your post just got me thinking...) -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100411125859.ga2...@aurora.owens.net
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 06:49:45 -0400 (EDT), Dotan Cohen wrote: I use a Debian derivative as it has slightly better hardware support out of the box and more up-to-date packages than straight Debian. That is exactly what this thread is about. No, that is not what this thread is about. I am the OP of this derivative of the thread [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name and *I* decide what this thread is about. Please don't hijack my thread. If you want to start a thread that says Ubuntu is better than Debian, then go over to the *Ubuntu* forum and start one. This is *my* thread, and I clearly stated the topic in my original post. I acknowledge that there are people in this world who don't want to know the details of how to administer a computer OS. In fact, that probably describes the majority of desktop users. I'm not condemning them. If they have problems, they can ask a personal friend who is willing to help them, or they can get a paid support contract. But this forum is not for them. This forum is for *Debian* users who *do* want to know how their system works and are *willing* to work at it *and* help others. It is not for Ubuntu users who don't know enough about their system to administer it, can't get adequate help from their fellow Ubuntu users on their own forum, and are too cheap to get a paid Ubuntu support contract. If you want to run Ubuntu, then run Ubuntu. The choice is yours. But don't come over here if you have problems. Get help on the Ubuntu forum, ask a friend who also runs Ubuntu, or buy an Ubuntu support contract. *That's* what this thread is about! This forum is, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, ... A forum *of* the Debian users *by* the Debian users *for* the Debian users. You're welcome to search our archives. But don't post here unless you run Debian, want to know how your system works, and are willing to help others as well as yourself. I'm not trying to be unkind. I have nothing against you personally. But it is not fair for you to run another OS and then come over here asking for free help. This is not a forum for users of all 250+ Debian-derived distributions. This is a *Debian* forum. Period. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/120720411.2434831270993605552.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:46:45 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: (...) You're welcome to search our archives. But don't post here unless you run Debian, want to know how your system works, and are willing to help others as well as yourself. I'm not trying to be unkind. I have nothing against you personally. But it is not fair for you to run another OS and then come over here asking for free help. This is not a forum for users of all 250+ Debian-derived distributions. This is a *Debian* forum. Period. Uh, that hurts :-( I join another distribution mailing lists and is not so uncommon to see questions coming from another OS (linux based). We are all in the same boat. I acknowledge every list has it own rules but true is that some questions are so wide that are also valid for any kind of linux flavour and every list user will get benefit from the responses. And Ubuntu and Debian are almost cousins. Well, I think you already know my personal point of view about this. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.04.11.14.00...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Camaleón wrote: On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:46:45 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: (...) You're welcome to search our archives. But don't post here unless you run Debian, want to know how your system works, and are willing to help others as well as yourself. I'm not trying to be unkind. I have nothing against you personally. But it is not fair for you to run another OS and then come over here asking for free help. This is not a forum for users of all 250+ Debian-derived distributions. This is a *Debian* forum. Period. Uh, that hurts :-( I join another distribution mailing lists and is not so uncommon to see questions coming from another OS (linux based). We are all in the same boat. I acknowledge every list has it own rules but true is that some questions are so wide that are also valid for any kind of linux flavour and every list user will get benefit from the responses. And Ubuntu and Debian are almost cousins. Well, I think you already know my personal point of view about this. Greetings, We can talk about everything not just Linux OS on d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org Why not ask there? -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bc1e1d5.70...@dobosevic.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 16:51:01 +0200, godo wrote: Camaleón wrote: (...) I acknowledge every list has it own rules but true is that some questions are so wide that are also valid for any kind of linux flavour and every list user will get benefit from the responses. And Ubuntu and Debian are almost cousins. Well, I think you already know my personal point of view about this. We can talk about everything not just Linux OS on d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org Why not ask there? Because I sincerely think that things like i.e., how to read kernel messages or log files are issues that also fit fine here, regardless the linux distribution being in play. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.04.11.14.59...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:59:48 + (UTC) Camaleón noela...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 11 Apr 2010 16:51:01 +0200, godo wrote: ... We can talk about everything not just Linux OS on d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org Why not ask there? Because I sincerely think that things like i.e., how to read kernel messages or log files are issues that also fit fine here, regardless the linux distribution being in play. I agree with Camaleón. This list is for: Support for Debian users who speak English. http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ I think that the things she mentions certainly qualify, even if they are not Debian specific. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100411121636.026e0fa2.cele...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
I use a Debian derivative as it has slightly better hardware support out of the box and more up-to-date packages than straight Debian. That is exactly what this thread is about. No, that is not what this thread is about. I am the OP of this derivative of the thread [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name and *I* decide what this thread is about. Please don't hijack my thread. If you want to start a thread that says Ubuntu is better than Debian, then go over to the *Ubuntu* forum and start one. This is *my* thread, and I clearly stated the topic in my original post. Sorry for stepping on your toes there, buddy. You can have your thread back, I did not intend to misinterpret, hijack, or declare Foo better than Bar. I acknowledge that there are people in this world who don't want to know the details of how to administer a computer OS. In fact, that probably describes the majority of desktop users. I'm not condemning them. If they have problems, they can ask a personal friend who is willing to help them, or they can get a paid support contract. But this forum is not for them. This forum is for *Debian* users who *do* want to know how their system works and are *willing* to work at it *and* help others. It is not for Ubuntu users who don't know enough about their system to administer it, can't get adequate help from their fellow Ubuntu users on their own forum, and are too cheap to get a paid Ubuntu support contract. If you want to run Ubuntu, then run Ubuntu. The choice is yours. But don't come over here if you have problems. Get help on the Ubuntu forum, ask a friend who also runs Ubuntu, or buy an Ubuntu support contract. *That's* what this thread is about! This forum is, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, I'm a Debian user, helping other users. I ask on the Ubuntu list when appropriate and I ask on the Debian list when appropriate. Other than this pointless thread, I do not post such off topic nonsense and everything I ask here is applicable to Debian. I do not ask about the Ubuntu installer or wallpaper. ... A forum *of* the Debian users *by* the Debian users *for* the Debian users. Thank you, that's me. You're welcome to search our archives. Thanks for being so generous. I thoroughly abuse those archives, don't worry. I post only when my question is not answered there. But don't post here unless you run Debian, want to know how your system works, and are willing to help others as well as yourself. If you haven't noticed, exactly what I am doing is learning how Debian systems work in order to help others. I'm not trying to be unkind. I have nothing against you personally. I know, you did not attack me personally. I'm not sensitive, don't worry! Some idiot on the kde-usability list did attack me personally just yesterday, and I simply asked why the personal attack but in this case I understand that your frustration is aimed at Ubuntards dragging down the Debian list, not Dotan Cohen. But it is not fair for you to run another OS and then come over here asking for free help. I disagree that I am: 1) running another OS -or- 2) coming over here asking for free help I ask Debian-related questions, and make an effort to learn. I then apply that knowledge to help users of a Debian-based distro. I'm not the one ruining your list, I promise. This is not a forum for users of all 250+ Debian-derived distributions. This is a *Debian* forum. Period. I therefore ask only Debian-related questions, and even then only after extensively searching tfa and stfw. Where I apply that knowledge is irrelevant. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/l2u880dece01004110929zb9c4d307hd42bf2d35355b...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
You're welcome to search our archives. But don't post here unless you run Debian, want to know how your system works, and are willing to help others as well as yourself. I'm not trying to be unkind. I have nothing against you personally. But it is not fair for you to run another OS and then come over here asking for free help. This is not a forum for users of all 250+ Debian-derived distributions. This is a *Debian* forum. Period. Could be a good idea creating a Debian and derivated distributions list where all .deb related questions where welcome ? -- :set joke on -- We are here, because we are escaping from rpm hell, aren't we ! :P :P -- :set joke off -- Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/n2r81c921f31004111500hdb39dda8p96402539056fc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 08:58:59AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 07:56:10AM +0100, Lisi wrote: On Saturday 10 April 2010 22:12:04 Dotan Cohen wrote: On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? Recently I was trying to show my 15 year old granddaughter, who runs Open SuSU 11 on her laptop, how to do some small admin job. She said that she didn't want to know. When I queried this, she said: When I am at school, the IT department does it for me. When I am at home here, you do it for me. When I am in Japan, Daddy does it for me. Why do I need to know how to do it? The best answer I can think of is so that you don't get financially abused by the people who do know how to do it. Whenever kids ask why they need to learn math, I tell them at the very least, you need to know that the person behind the counter at McDonald's is giving you the correct change. Learning something doesn't mean you have to be an expert, or that you have to do it all the time. But knowledge is power, and it seems silly to actively avoid knowledge, as so many people seem to do. (By the way, Lisi, this is not directed at your granddaughter -- your post just got me thinking...) -Rob 100% in agreement with the above - Lisi seems like a wonderful grandparent in trying to instil the value of knowledge. Isaac Asimov - A Feeling of Power - should tell you all you need to know :) Clever stuff, this graphitics Or my favourite little ditty which shows that you can't necessarily rely on the fact that your father was clever so you need do no work thereby Learning by study must be won 'Twas ne'er entailed from son to son All best, AndyC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100411125859.ga2...@aurora.owens.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100411235428.ga20...@galactic.demon.co.uk
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Andrew M.A. Cater put forth on 4/11/2010 6:54 PM: On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 08:58:59AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 07:56:10AM +0100, Lisi wrote: On Saturday 10 April 2010 22:12:04 Dotan Cohen wrote: On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? This is a mis-quote above. Just making clear that the above statement was not made by me, but by Dotan Cohen: Dotan Cohen put forth on 4/10/2010 4:12 PM: On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Stephen Powell put forth on 4/8/2010 9:38 PM: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. I told a friend I wanted a server distro that wasn't going to spoon feed me, but make me learn something about Linux. Casey, a seasoned Debian sysadmin, recommended I download the Debian net install floppies and do my first install from the mirrors, only a compact base install, and to install everything else I needed by hand with apt. That was Potato with a 2.2 kernel. I only use Linux for non-GUI servers. I don't use desktop Linux. All my admin'ing requires knuckle busting. ;) And I like it that way. But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? They want the computer to be as transparent as possible in their workflow. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bc288f2.1030...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Well, squeeze my be well into the last half of its cycle. They are working toward a pre-release freeze now. I was thinking of squeeze as (if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I am) Lenny is still on KDE 4.2.x and Open Office 2.x. KDE 4.4 is such an improvement over 4.2, and OOo 3.2 is worlds ahead of 2.4. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/s2n880dece01004101400ob9e4be10sa24da092927eb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
While what you say is true to an extent, there are a number of members of the Ubuntu list who are quite sharp. The Debian list on the whole is more informative. I did not mean to insult the whole list. Users such as NoOp (who also posts on openoffice-users) as tremendous help there. I really think that they hold the mailing list together. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/o2o880dece01004101402jcac8f9b3m89a5ec98110fb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
(1) No need to CC me; I am subscribed to the list. Sorry, I will try to remember. Gmail has random to-whom-the-message-will-be-replied-to behaviour, and furthermore I prefer that I get CCed. So I usually play it safe. (2) I see that you (and a number of others) have had fun with parodies of the give a fish / teach to fish parable, but its point is still valid. Only for users who are willing to learn. Most are not. (3) If you are unwilling to teach, then there is no reason why your technological dependents would not be just as happy with an appropriately installed and configured Debian system as they would be with an Ubuntu system. I am willing to teach! However I know that my users do not want a CS degree from Dotan University. They want how to not why. (4) If you are unwilling to teach, then don't come here for support, because that's what you're asking us to do. Why should we do for you what you are not willing to do for others? When I do post here I ask why and show me where tfm is because I've googled and cannot find it. I have _never_ asked a question that a simple google query would answer if one does not already know the right keywords. And I always try to ask where I could have learned the information for myself. I prefer that answers to the few questions that I post are answered with RTFM and a link, rather than just doing my homework for me. Don't dismiss me as dear lazyweb. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/t2m880dece01004101408ve246149dhf7a4bad07c43...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Stability issues and updates are the reasons that I switched _to_ Ubuntu! Before that it was the early Fedoras. I still think that my favourite two Linux OSes were Fedora Core 3 and Ubuntu Feisty. Maybe I will give Squeeze a round before my next install. I've last tested only Lenny. While I've enjoyed all the fish exchanges from this thread, how on earth have you found Ubuntu more stable than Lenny? You cite stability issues and updates as reasons for using Ubuntu and then state you last tested Lenny, leading one to believe an Ubuntu-Lenny comparison is being made here. Maybe I'm totally off my gourd but that doesn't make sense at all. No, for stability I pitted Ubuntu vs. Fedora. Yeah, no match here. I pit Ubuntu vs. Lenny for features and time-to-working-system. Ubuntu (generally) needs less manual configuration and has more up-to-date software. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/z2u880dece01004101410sccfd8e02p3cfc94466023a...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun,11.Apr.10, 00:00:24, Dotan Cohen wrote: I was thinking of squeeze as (if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I am) Lenny is still on KDE 4.2.x and Open Office 2.x. KDE 4.4 is such an improvement over 4.2, and OOo 3.2 is worlds ahead of 2.4. Actually lenny is still on KDE 3.5, but you can get OOo 3.2 from backports. Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Stephen Powell put forth on 4/8/2010 9:38 PM: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. I told a friend I wanted a server distro that wasn't going to spoon feed me, but make me learn something about Linux. Casey, a seasoned Debian sysadmin, recommended I download the Debian net install floppies and do my first install from the mirrors, only a compact base install, and to install everything else I needed by hand with apt. That was Potato with a 2.2 kernel. I only use Linux for non-GUI servers. I don't use desktop Linux. All my admin'ing requires knuckle busting. ;) And I like it that way. But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? They want the computer to be as transparent as possible in their workflow. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/w2m880dece01004101412k40049bb2q9d8458321d74f...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Actually lenny is still on KDE 3.5, but you can get OOo 3.2 from backports. Thanks, I was going from the info on distrowatch. I will look into backports. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j2k880dece01004101413w865b64b0o2ee02a4c2a172...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 12:12:04AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 10 April 2010 00:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: Stephen Powell put forth on 4/8/2010 9:38 PM: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. I told a friend I wanted a server distro that wasn't going to spoon feed me, but make me learn something about Linux. Casey, a seasoned Debian sysadmin, recommended I download the Debian net install floppies and do my first install from the mirrors, only a compact base install, and to install everything else I needed by hand with apt. That was Potato with a 2.2 kernel. I only use Linux for non-GUI servers. I don't use desktop Linux. All my admin'ing requires knuckle busting. ;) And I like it that way. But you do understand that desktop users _don't_ want to learn about their OS, correct? They want the computer to be as transparent as possible in their workflow. Debian is a fantastic OS, created by brilliant people with a brilliant vision. It is not as difficult for the diligent layman as its reputation implies if he/she knows and sticks to their original goals as a user. However, it may never be the desktop candidate for fun exploration during family hour, excepting the the technologically inclined and strange wannabes like myself. -- Kind Regards, Freeman http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100410221102.ga5...@europa.office
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Dotan Cohen wrote: I run Ubuntu and regularly read the Debian list, so maybe I can answer. That's my situation as well. If I need to know where is the menus Firefox is, or how to change my wallpaper, the Ubuntu list is fine. But nobody there understands _anything_ about the OS. That is fine, the target audience of Ubuntu is not technical users. The barrier to entry is very low. My 74-year-old mother in law uses Kubuntu. While what you say is true to an extent, there are a number of members of the Ubuntu list who are quite sharp. The Debian list on the whole is more informative. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.deb.2.00.1004082313380.20...@localhost
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Hi, On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Bob McGowan bob_mcgo...@symantec.com wrote: On 04/08/2010 07:17 AM, Stephen Powell wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:57:17 -0400 (EDT), bri...@aracnet.com wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:09:09 -0400 (EDT), Stephen Powell wrote: BTW, does anyone know why Ubuntu users seem to want to use the Debian forums? Don't they have forums of their own? Yes they do, and in fact I find them helpful even though I'm running Debian :-) I have occasionally found a solution to a problem I'm having on Debian by searching the internet and finding the solution posted on an Ubuntu forum. But I never *post* there because I run Debian, not Ubuntu. What I don't understand is why Ubuntu users *post* here, when they actually run Ubuntu. According to the OP of this thread, he posted here because he posted on the Ubuntu forums first and no-one answered. I wonder how common that is, and why. Ubuntu alleges a larger installed --gone:-) I run Ubuntu on my laptop, because I got tired of the manual Nvidia setup every time the kernel changed. Currently: # m-a a-i nvidia-kernel # aptitude install nvidia-glx # /etc/init.d/gdm restart I think this is acceptable when kernel change. Maybe dkms could do the think better Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/y2g81c921f31004090450ma2822682w2aa2300668918...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:00:39 -0400 (EDT), Dotan Cohen wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. In this case it's: Take a rope off their necks and you save him today. (get him off Windows) Try to teach him what to do with a better rope and he will call you twice a day for the next four years (install Debian for him) Give him a rope made for babies and you'll both be happy (install Ubuntu) (1) No need to CC me; I am subscribed to the list. (2) I see that you (and a number of others) have had fun with parodies of the give a fish / teach to fish parable, but its point is still valid. (3) If you are unwilling to teach, then there is no reason why your technological dependents would not be just as happy with an appropriately installed and configured Debian system as they would be with an Ubuntu system. (4) If you are unwilling to teach, then don't come here for support, because that's what you're asking us to do. Why should we do for you what you are not willing to do for others? -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/213608328.2107461270820068094.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Stephen Powell wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:00:39 -0400 (EDT), Dotan Cohen wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Â Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Â Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. In this case it's: Take a rope off their necks and you save him today. (get him off Windows) Try to teach him what to do with a better rope and he will call you twice a day for the next four years (install Debian for him) Give him a rope made for babies and you'll both be happy (install Ubuntu) (1) No need to CC me; I am subscribed to the list. (2) I see that you (and a number of others) have had fun with parodies of the give a fish / teach to fish parable, but its point is still valid. (3) If you are unwilling to teach, then there is no reason why your technological dependents would not be just as happy with an appropriately installed and configured Debian system as they would be with an Ubuntu system. (4) If you are unwilling to teach, then don't come here for support, because that's what you're asking us to do. Why should we do for you what you are not willing to do for others? Stephen This is one of your *best* posts ever! Years ago. this was how this list operated. Sadly it has changed over the years. Newcomers rush to this list for answers no matter how simple the problem is with no thought given to doing *any* research on the own. I guess it may be a sign of the times. The world has changed over the past 16+ years since I first joined this list. Sadly, for this list, not for the better. Maybe if we stressed your points 2,3,4, it might change for the better. One can only hope. Wayne -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bbf4a9c.3040...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:26 PM, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] Stability issues and updates are the reasons that I switched _to_ Ubuntu! Before that it was the early Fedoras. I still think that my favourite two Linux OSes were Fedora Core 3 and Ubuntu Feisty. Maybe I will give Squeeze a round before my next install. I've last tested only Lenny. While I've enjoyed all the fish exchanges from this thread, how on earth have you found Ubuntu more stable than Lenny? You cite stability issues and updates as reasons for using Ubuntu and then state you last tested Lenny, leading one to believe an Ubuntu-Lenny comparison is being made here. Maybe I'm totally off my gourd but that doesn't make sense at all. Mark
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 16:41, Wayne linux...@gmail.com wrote: I guess it may be a sign of the times. The world has changed over the past 16+ years since I first joined this list. Sadly, for this list, not for the better. Maybe if we stressed your points 2,3,4, it might change for the better. One can only hope. +1 -- () ascii-rubanda kampajno - kontraŭ html-a retpoŝto /\ ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/p2k6b1504c41004090850pf051cc0aldceff92e6e371...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Stephen Powell put forth on 4/8/2010 9:38 PM: For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. I told a friend I wanted a server distro that wasn't going to spoon feed me, but make me learn something about Linux. Casey, a seasoned Debian sysadmin, recommended I download the Debian net install floppies and do my first install from the mirrors, only a compact base install, and to install everything else I needed by hand with apt. That was Potato with a 2.2 kernel. I only use Linux for non-GUI servers. I don't use desktop Linux. All my admin'ing requires knuckle busting. ;) And I like it that way. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bbf9f3f.1040...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Ron Johnson put forth on 4/8/2010 9:58 PM: On 2010-04-08 21:38, Stephen Powell wrote: [snip] For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. There's another proverb: Teach a man to fish and he gets angry for making him work. I've never heard that. Must be a socialist thing... -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bbf9fce.3010...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 22:42, Stan Hoeppner s...@hardwarefreak.com wrote: This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. I told a friend I wanted a server distro that wasn't going to spoon feed me, but make me learn something about Linux. Slackware is usually recommended for this. Or you you wanna learn the very basics, LFS and derivates. -- () ascii-rubanda kampajno - kontraŭ html-a retpoŝto /\ ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/p2g6b1504c41004091455h89a1613ai496ca9219c606...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 04:44:46PM -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Ron Johnson put forth on 4/8/2010 9:58 PM: On 2010-04-08 21:38, Stephen Powell wrote: [snip] For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. There's another proverb: Teach a man to fish and he gets angry for making him work. I've never heard that. Must be a socialist thing... Give a man a fire and he's warm for an hour. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. [Courtesy of the fortunes-offensive program, I think :) -- Stan AndyC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100409230847.ga8...@galactic.demon.co.uk
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:55:56 -0400 (EDT), Nuno Magalhães wrote: On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 22:42, Stan Hoeppner wrote: This is exactly the reason I chose Debian 10 years ago when I was looking for my first Linux distro. I told a friend I wanted a server distro that wasn't going to spoon feed me, but make me learn something about Linux. Slackware is usually recommended for this. Or you you wanna learn the very basics, LFS and derivates. Slackware is a dictatorship. Debian is a republic. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1764366359.2247791270858897963.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
[OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:57:17 -0400 (EDT), bri...@aracnet.com wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:09:09 -0400 (EDT), Stephen Powell wrote: BTW, does anyone know why Ubuntu users seem to want to use the Debian forums? Don't they have forums of their own? Yes they do, and in fact I find them helpful even though I'm running Debian :-) I have occasionally found a solution to a problem I'm having on Debian by searching the internet and finding the solution posted on an Ubuntu forum. But I never *post* there because I run Debian, not Ubuntu. What I don't understand is why Ubuntu users *post* here, when they actually run Ubuntu. According to the OP of this thread, he posted here because he posted on the Ubuntu forums first and no-one answered. I wonder how common that is, and why. Ubuntu alleges a larger installed base than Debian, at least for desktop machines; so there ought to be an even larger number of users available to answer posts on the Ubuntu forums. I always assume that posters are running Debian. But a specific procedure that works in Debian may not work in Ubuntu. They have a lot in common, but they are not exactly the same. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/184589566.1868501270736222616.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On 04/08/2010 07:17 AM, Stephen Powell wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:57:17 -0400 (EDT), bri...@aracnet.com wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:09:09 -0400 (EDT), Stephen Powell wrote: BTW, does anyone know why Ubuntu users seem to want to use the Debian forums? Don't they have forums of their own? Yes they do, and in fact I find them helpful even though I'm running Debian :-) I have occasionally found a solution to a problem I'm having on Debian by searching the internet and finding the solution posted on an Ubuntu forum. But I never *post* there because I run Debian, not Ubuntu. What I don't understand is why Ubuntu users *post* here, when they actually run Ubuntu. According to the OP of this thread, he posted here because he posted on the Ubuntu forums first and no-one answered. I wonder how common that is, and why. Ubuntu alleges a larger installed --gone:-) I run Ubuntu on my laptop, because I got tired of the manual Nvidia setup every time the kernel changed. But I use Debian at work and on systems that don't need any proprietary stuff. I've found some good technical help from Ubuntu forums, but it seems to generally come from Ubuntu personnel rather than users. So, Ubuntu seems to attract a less 'technical' group of users. And, since Ubuntu uses Debian as its starting point, less technical users could assume using Debian lists is OK. The above is guess work based on observation, not critical analysis. YMMV. ;) -- Bob McGowan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bbe0eb2.5070...@symantec.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:13:22 -0400 (EDT), Bob McGowan wrote: I run Ubuntu on my laptop, because I got tired of the manual Nvidia setup every time the kernel changed. I have been a regular on this forum for several months now, and I know from experience that the topic of the proprietary nvidia driver has come up as a topic of frustration many times. I have a couple of machines at home with nvidia cards in them, and I plan to do some research in this area and publish my findings on a web page, assuming that I can find something useful to say. But first, I've got to get my taxes done! -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/255649179.1925261270748527351.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Stephen Powell wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:13:22 -0400 (EDT), Bob McGowan wrote: I run Ubuntu on my laptop, because I got tired of the manual Nvidia setup every time the kernel changed. I have been a regular on this forum for several months now, and I know from experience that the topic of the proprietary nvidia driver has come up as a topic of frustration many times. I have a couple of machines at home with nvidia cards in them, and I plan to do some research in this area and publish my findings on a web page, assuming that I can find something useful to say. But first, I've got to get my taxes done! Man, can I sympathize with you two. I started using Linux about a year-and-a-half ago. Various versions of Ubuntu worked perfectly well on one notebook, and anything but perfectly on another. The other notebook has an nVidia Quadro 1400 Go display subsystem on it, and I was using the restricted (proprietary) drivers. Just about every time there was an update to GNOME or Xorg or maybe something else I would see new glitches on the system with the nVidia card. No problems on the system with the integrated Inel video. A year ago I switched to Debian testing and saw the same danged thing on the system with the nVidia video card. No problems on the system with the system with the integrated Intel video. I tried Xfce. Same weirdness, though a little less drastic. I reinstalled the OS on the nVidia-capped (as in handicapped) system, but this time just used the FOSS drivers. Yeah, it's slow -- especially desktop compositing. But the system is now as reliable as a train in countries where trains are reliable instead of messed up like in the U.S. I'm thinking that, if you want a system with nVidia parts to work well under Linux, you should stick with the open source drivers. I realize that I'm making a huge leap with my extrapolation, but I'm not going to be putting any blobs on my systems any time soon. I don't even have wireless because I've extended that philosophy all the way. No contrib, no non-free, no commercial stuff. It has been a really nice ride since I made that decision. Regards, Sam attachment: wallenjames.vcf
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
What I don't understand is why Ubuntu users *post* here, when they actually run Ubuntu. I run Ubuntu and regularly read the Debian list, so maybe I can answer. If I need to know where is the menus Firefox is, or how to change my wallpaper, the Ubuntu list is fine. But nobody there understands _anything_ about the OS. That is fine, the target audience of Ubuntu is not technical users. The barrier to entry is very low. My 74-year-old mother in law uses Kubuntu. So if the Debian support is so great, why do I run Ubuntu and not Debian? Several reasons. One, the low barrier to entry means that I can get a system up and running in no time flat. Twice a year, 20 minutes and I've got the latest and greatest software versions. Debian still needs tweaking for my problematic video card, and some other really small details. But the biggest reason that I run Ubuntu is to promote it. I have done tens of installs for friends, neighbours, and family. I need to be familiar with what they are running. Debian just needs a bit too much work, a bit too much handholding, and a bit too much explaining things. So while my heart is with Debian, I run the best Debian derivative out there. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/q2g880dece01004081837w316faaebs535b0ae430a03...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] But the biggest reason that I run Ubuntu is to promote it. I have done tens of installs for friends, neighbours, and family. I need to be familiar with what they are running. Debian just needs a bit too much work, a bit too much handholding, and a bit too much explaining things. Interesting. This is the opposite of my experience, where I started friends out on Ubuntu as a way to break them into Linux but they found the amount of updates annoying, and there were some instability issues at different times. So I switched them to Lenny - sure it took a little more to set up, but now it is *set up* and stays that way, unlike my/their experiences with Ubuntu. It's pretty much zero maintenance for me, unlike when they had Ubuntu on their computers. 5 updates a week, if that many? I'll take it. Plus, if I can use a non-company based OS that won't install, for example, Ubuntu One, without my choice to not install it, I'll choose that path. I was kinda disappointed to see Ubuntu starting to include bloatware in their last few releases, just my experience though. Mark
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
Interesting. This is the opposite of my experience, where I started friends out on Ubuntu as a way to break them into Linux but they found the amount of updates annoying, and there were some instability issues at different times. So I switched them to Lenny - sure it took a little more to set up, but now it is set up and stays that way, unlike my/their experiences with Ubuntu. It's pretty much zero maintenance for me, unlike when they had Ubuntu on their computers. 5 updates a week, if that many? I'll take it. Plus, if I can use a non-company based OS that won't install, for example, Ubuntu One, without my choice to not install it, I'll choose that path. I was kinda disappointed to see Ubuntu starting to include bloatware in their last few releases, just my experience though. Stability issues and updates are the reasons that I switched _to_ Ubuntu! Before that it was the early Fedoras. I still think that my favourite two Linux OSes were Fedora Core 3 and Ubuntu Feisty. Maybe I will give Squeeze a round before my next install. I've last tested only Lenny. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/t2i880dece01004081926gb691d9eeo688737211f952...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:34 -0400 (EDT), Dotan Cohen wrote: Stephen Powell wrote: What I don't understand is why Ubuntu users *post* here, when they actually run Ubuntu. I run Ubuntu and regularly read the Debian list, so maybe I can answer. If I need to know where is the menus Firefox is, or how to change my wallpaper, the Ubuntu list is fine. But nobody there understands _anything_ about the OS. That is fine, the target audience of Ubuntu is not technical users. The barrier to entry is very low. My 74-year-old mother in law uses Kubuntu. So if the Debian support is so great, why do I run Ubuntu and not Debian? Several reasons. One, the low barrier to entry means that I can get a system up and running in no time flat. Twice a year, 20 minutes and I've got the latest and greatest software versions. Debian still needs tweaking for my problematic video card, and some other really small details. But the biggest reason that I run Ubuntu is to promote it. I have done tens of installs for friends, neighbours, and family. I need to be familiar with what they are running. Debian just needs a bit too much work, a bit too much handholding, and a bit too much explaining things. So while my heart is with Debian, I run the best Debian derivative out there. For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1280705063.2050161270780727932.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On 2010-04-08 21:38, Stephen Powell wrote: [snip] For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. There's another proverb: Teach a man to fish and he gets angry for making him work. -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bbe97de.2090...@cox.net
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. In this case it's: Take a rope off their necks and you save him today. (get him off Windows) Try to teach him what to do with a better rope and he will call you twice a day for the next four years (install Debian for him) Give him a rope made for babies and you'll both be happy (install Ubuntu) -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/t2w880dece01004082000r3623e42cre13675c8382d7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
There's another proverb: Teach a man to fish and he gets angry for making him work. Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for an evening. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/z2h880dece01004082001v51cb8233nf932c388f8dba...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:58:38 -0500 Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2010-04-08 21:38, Stephen Powell wrote: [snip] For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. There's another proverb: Teach a man to fish and he gets angry for making him work. Teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day. Cybe R. Wizard -- There is absolutely no substitute for a complete lack of information upon which to base a considered opinion. Rugg Diddle -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100408223133.76ecf...@wizardstower
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 10:31:33PM -0500, Cybe R. Wizard wrote: On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:58:38 -0500 Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2010-04-08 21:38, Stephen Powell wrote: [snip] For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. There's another proverb: Teach a man to fish and he gets angry for making him work. Teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day. Teach a man to drink good Irish Whiskey and there's no telling what might happen. -- Kind Regards, Freeman http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100409044955.gd13...@europa.office
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 05:26:20AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Interesting. This is the opposite of my experience, where I started friends out on Ubuntu as a way to break them into Linux but they found the amount of updates annoying, and there were some instability issues at different times. So I switched them to Lenny - sure it took a little more to set up, but now it is set up and stays that way, unlike my/their experiences with Ubuntu. It's pretty much zero maintenance for me, unlike when they had Ubuntu on their computers. 5 updates a week, if that many? I'll take it. Plus, if I can use a non-company based OS that won't install, for example, Ubuntu One, without my choice to not install it, I'll choose that path. I was kinda disappointed to see Ubuntu starting to include bloatware in their last few releases, just my experience though. Stability issues and updates are the reasons that I switched _to_ Ubuntu! Before that it was the early Fedoras. I still think that my favourite two Linux OSes were Fedora Core 3 and Ubuntu Feisty. Maybe I will give Squeeze a round before my next install. I've last tested only Lenny. Well, squeeze my be well into the last half of its cycle. They are working toward a pre-release freeze now. However, I don't recommend testing without somehow setting up some qualifications and preparations for yourself. Mine was to become adept at using aptitude, which I depend on regarding dependency handling, and to and develop a plan. The plan: 1. Make a habit of reading about packages on the Debian site. 2. Learn to read bug reports and watch Debian bug tracking. 3. Install and pay attention to both apt-listbugs and apt-listchanges. 4. Get used to a pool of uninstalled upgrades and use the hold function liberally. 5. Set aptitude to *not* remove unused or obsolete packages and let the cache bloat indefinitely (large partition). 6. Set an upgrade schedule that allows time to think rather than rush upgrades between tasks. 7. Stay behind the curve and read the experiences of other testers. 8. Get ready to submit some bug reports as a contribution to the effort. Still, squeeze has not been the easiest of testing cycles. And one could get stuck in an difficult situation for a long time. We seem to have made some recent advancements in ALSA but I think that the video on some old Radeons like mine is awaiting a entirely new driver. -- Kind Regards, Freeman http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100409044947.gc13...@europa.office
Re: [OT] Ubuntu vs Debian forums (was recompiling the kernel with a different version name)
On 2010-04-08 23:49, Freeman wrote: On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 10:31:33PM -0500, Cybe R. Wizard wrote: On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:58:38 -0500 Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2010-04-08 21:38, Stephen Powell wrote: [snip] For some reason, this well-known proverb is going through my head: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I'd rather learn to fish. There's another proverb: Teach a man to fish and he gets angry for making him work. Teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day. Teach a man to drink good Irish Whiskey and there's no telling what might happen. After all, the Irish were about to transcend their corporeal forms when whiskey was discovered... -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bbeb3a1.7050...@cox.net
