Re: Unusual idea..
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:22:47 +0100 "Craig Tinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When I say "number" I don't mean as in integer, long etc.. I mean as in > a huge set of individual integers.. > Hope that all makes sense.. anyone any ideas on how this could be done? Erm, erm... that is what the .wav file is. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days ---+- pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Unusual idea..
On Sat, Aug 09, 2003 at 03:36:58AM -0500, Alex Malinovich wrote: > I don't know if I'm the only one, but has anyone thought that perhaps > the OP wanted to do this 'just because'? Personally, I think it would be > quite 'cool' to be able to convert a stream of audio into a stream of > integers corresponding to the waveform of the original source. Not to > compress it, not to convert it back, and not to get a unique value. Just > to do it. But then, that's just me. I can't pretend to know what the OP > truly had in mind. :) You mean like the sox .dat output format ? Frank > > -- > Alex Malinovich > Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! > Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the > pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Fri, 2003-08-08 at 11:22, Craig Tinson wrote: > Guys... > > I've had an idea for a "play project" I can work on at home in my spare > time.. but before I start on it I need a few ideas.. > > Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a > number"? I know that sounds weird so I'll explain what I mean... > > Imagine converting an mp3 into a wav and loading it into a wav editor.. > you will see a waveform.. there must be a mathematical way of converting > that waveform into a unique number that will represent that waveform.. > the number would be huge to hold all the information for the waveform... > > When I say "number" I don't mean as in integer, long etc.. I mean as in > a huge set of individual integers.. > > Hope that all makes sense.. anyone any ideas on how this could be done? > > Cheers > > Craig > > You can never convert it into a single unique number. That can be proved to be impossible. You can convert it into a different set of numbers if you fill like it. Look into the theory of wavelets or fourier transforms if you really fill like it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
Craig Tinson wrote: Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a number"? Well, whatever you're going to use it for, it has probably already been done, or it's not going to work out like you hope. Let me touch on all of the possible things I can think of: First, either you want to convert a wav into a number that is possible to convert back into the original wav, or you want to convert a wav into a number that is *not* possible to convert back into the original wav but still the number is unique to that wav (ie, a hash value). If you're after the first one, a reversible conversion, then I figure you're hoping to either: 1 - Compress or somehow make the storage more efficient by messing with the number. In that case, forget it. It's not gonna happen. or, 2 - Somehow get around P2P copyright violations (ie, "But your honor, I was just sharing really, really, REALLY big numbers. You can't put me in jail for sharing *numbers*".). In that case, forget it. This tactic will go absolutely nowhere. If you're after some hash value... some way of uniquely refering to a sound without actually having to store the whole sound, then you're probably after something called an "audio fingerprint". Go to www.musicbrainz.org and read about TRM's. Did that pretty much answer your question? - Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Sat, 2003-08-09 at 01:03, Alan Shutko wrote: > Micha Feigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > You can never convert it into a single unique number. That can be proved > > to be impossible. > > No, it can't. Counter-proof: let the MP3 represent a single number, > base 256, where the first byte is the lowest-order digit, second byte > next lowest order, etc. Every unique MP3 is now a unique (really, > really big) number. > Thats nice, and might be close to the truth, numerically. The problem is that this is true as long as you seriously limit your domain. Without limiting the possible signals I can build a signal you can't produce a unique number for whatever encoding you use. But you are right, since we are talking about a very limited domain in this case, since wav and mp3 or both lossy (44khz wav can't properly reconstruct signals with more then 22khz). > -- > Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - I am the rocks. > "Fax licks mole a$$es..." > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 12:26:15PM +0300, Micha Feigin wrote: > since wav and mp3 or both lossy (44khz wav can't properly > reconstruct signals with more then 22khz). That's something of a confusing statement... All recording formats are "lossy" in that the recording is never a perfect copy of the original real-world event. A "perfect" recording of a real-world event cannot exist. But this isn't what the word usually means in this context. There is a set of recording formats, such that conversion of a file into/out of the format gives a result identical with the original; the chances of it being different are about the same as those of the very large number of monkeys writing Hamlet. These are "lossless" formats, such as wav and flac. There is another set of recording formats, such that conversion of a file into/out of the format gives a result which differs from the original. These are "lossy" formats, and include mp3, ogg and all analogue formats. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Unusual idea..
On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 15:56, Pigeon wrote: > On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 12:26:15PM +0300, Micha Feigin wrote: > > since wav and mp3 or both lossy (44khz wav can't properly > > reconstruct signals with more then 22khz). > > That's something of a confusing statement... > > All recording formats are "lossy" in that the recording is never a > perfect copy of the original real-world event. A "perfect" recording > of a real-world event cannot exist. But this isn't what the word > usually means in this context. > You are right, sorry, didn't have a better terminology but it is a bit confusing. I was just point mt mistake in this case. I was thinking of the theoretical concept by mistake instead of the real life case. Once you limit yourself to the finite dimensional case then the conversion would be unique. > There is a set of recording formats, such that conversion of a > file into/out of the format gives a result identical with the > original; the chances of it being different are about the same as > those of the very large number of monkeys writing Hamlet. These are > "lossless" formats, such as wav and flac. > > There is another set of recording formats, such that conversion of a > file into/out of the format gives a result which differs from the > original. These are "lossy" formats, and include mp3, ogg and all > analogue formats. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 09:22:47AM +0100, Craig Tinson wrote: > Guys... > > I've had an idea for a "play project" I can work on at home in my spare > time.. but before I start on it I need a few ideas.. > > Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a > number"? I know that sounds weird so I'll explain what I mean... > > Imagine converting an mp3 into a wav and loading it into a wav editor.. > you will see a waveform.. there must be a mathematical way of converting > that waveform into a unique number that will represent that waveform.. > the number would be huge to hold all the information for the waveform... > > When I say "number" I don't mean as in integer, long etc.. I mean as in > a huge set of individual integers.. > > Hope that all makes sense.. anyone any ideas on how this could be done? A wav file is already a huge list of numbers. CD quality audio in wav format is about 44100 numbers per second (these are called samples), times 2 because it is stereo and has two waveforms one for right and one for left, (these are called channels) and each number is 16 bits in size (0 to 65535) this is the size of each sample. The waveform you see in an editor is just a line joining these numbers/samples. If you open up a wav file in a text editor you won't be able to see this because the numbers are stored in binary. I also believe that there is some information about the file stored either at the beginning or the end of the wav file. It seems that what you want to do is write a filter that will take a wav file and output the numbers in the wav file as human readable numbers. Rather than writing one I recommend you take a look at a library for dealing with sound file formats. Possibly a program like play or sox could also do. Hope that helps, Bijan pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
[OT] Re: Unusual idea..
Le Vendredi 8 Août 2003 10:22, Craig Tinson a déclamé : > Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a > number"? I know that sounds weird so I'll explain what I mean... > When I say "number" I don't mean as in integer, long etc.. I mean as in > a huge set of individual integers.. A Wav is an integer. You can put this Wav in a not lossy format (Flac, zip...) and obtain another shorter integer which could be identified as your Wav. You can search in pi (or every other "universe-number") for the place where your Wav begins in the flow of the decimals of pi. That would be another (huge) number. You can compute the Wav (or the Flac or the gzip) any way you like with every bijective mathematical function, that would give you other numbers. You can associate to your wav its physical location (from GPS coordinates to the sector of your HD), that would another unique identifier. You can create a timestamp on your computer (08/08/2003, 13:40:52,5639782154611666840007) from the day it is classified, and add it to the serial numbers of your hardware, that would be another key. And perhaps could you tell us what it would be useful for ? -- Christophe Courtois - Ostwald, Alsace, France http://www.courtois.cc/ - Clé PGP : 0F33E837 -- Any suficiently stupid /. poster is indistinguishable from a troll -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Sat, 2003-08-09 at 04:36, Alex Malinovich wrote: > On Sat, 2003-08-09 at 03:30, Joe Emenaker wrote: > > Craig Tinson wrote: > > > > >Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a > > >number"? > > > to me unique number = fingerprint. watermark. if you exaimine the analog waveform, extract the min and max, then quantize it to some integer values... then you could take the values, string them together and get a REALLY BIG number. i.e. a sine wave(y=sine(x) quantized to values 0 to 255, where the points would be 128,129,130,...255...,128,127...0,1,2,..128 then make a number 128129130...255...128127...01002...128 -Kev -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Friday 08 August 2003 13:43, Pigeon wrote: > read a book on DSP. Recommendations? -- Mike Mueller -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Sat, 2003-08-09 at 03:30, Joe Emenaker wrote: > Craig Tinson wrote: > > >Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a > >number"? > > > Well, whatever you're going to use it for, it has probably already been > done, or it's not going to work out like you hope. Let me touch on all > of the possible things I can think of: > > First, either you want to convert a wav into a number that is possible > to convert back into the original wav, or you want to convert a wav into > a number that is *not* possible to convert back into the original wav > but still the number is unique to that wav (ie, a hash value). > > If you're after the first one, a reversible conversion, then I figure > you're hoping to either: > 1 - Compress or somehow make the storage more efficient by messing > with the number. In that case, forget it. It's not gonna happen. > or, > 2 - Somehow get around P2P copyright violations (ie, "But your honor, > I was just sharing really, really, REALLY big numbers. You can't put me > in jail for sharing *numbers*".). In that case, forget it. This tactic > will go absolutely nowhere. > > If you're after some hash value... some way of uniquely refering to a > sound without actually having to store the whole sound, then you're > probably after something called an "audio fingerprint". Go to > www.musicbrainz.org and read about TRM's. I don't know if I'm the only one, but has anyone thought that perhaps the OP wanted to do this 'just because'? Personally, I think it would be quite 'cool' to be able to convert a stream of audio into a stream of integers corresponding to the waveform of the original source. Not to compress it, not to convert it back, and not to get a unique value. Just to do it. But then, that's just me. I can't pretend to know what the OP truly had in mind. :) -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Unusual idea..
Guys... I've had an idea for a "play project" I can work on at home in my spare time.. but before I start on it I need a few ideas.. Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a number"? I know that sounds weird so I'll explain what I mean... Imagine converting an mp3 into a wav and loading it into a wav editor.. you will see a waveform.. there must be a mathematical way of converting that waveform into a unique number that will represent that waveform.. the number would be huge to hold all the information for the waveform... When I say "number" I don't mean as in integer, long etc.. I mean as in a huge set of individual integers.. Hope that all makes sense.. anyone any ideas on how this could be done? Cheers Craig -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
"Craig Tinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Imagine converting an mp3 into a wav and loading it into a wav editor.. > you will see a waveform.. there must be a mathematical way of converting > that waveform into a unique number that will represent that waveform.. > the number would be huge to hold all the information for the waveform... The MP3 _is_ just a number. It just happens to be stored as a long sequence of bytes, instead of a long sequence of digits. -- Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - I am the rocks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unusual idea..
On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 09:22:47AM +0100, Craig Tinson wrote: > Guys... > > I've had an idea for a "play project" I can work on at home in my spare > time.. but before I start on it I need a few ideas.. > > Can anyone come up with a theory on how to "convert an mp3 into a > number"? I know that sounds weird so I'll explain what I mean... > > Imagine converting an mp3 into a wav and loading it into a wav editor.. > you will see a waveform.. there must be a mathematical way of converting > that waveform into a unique number that will represent that waveform.. > the number would be huge to hold all the information for the waveform... > > When I say "number" I don't mean as in integer, long etc.. I mean as in > a huge set of individual integers.. > > Hope that all makes sense.. anyone any ideas on how this could be done? It kind of does, because wild ideas like that have occasionally come into my head; and it kind of doesn't, because such ideas have generally failed to make any sort of sense when I tried to define them in a more rigorous manner. The first thing that comes to mind is the Fourier transform. This basically takes the string of integers which the .wav file consists of which describes the waveform in terms of instantaneous amplitude with respect to time, and gives you an equallly large set of (amplitude, phase) pairs representing a large set of continuous frequencies. So you could work out how to tune half a billion organ pipes so that when you blew them all at the same time for three quarters of an hour it would sound like 'The Final Cut'. What do you actually want to do with this magic number? Do you want to store it in less space than the original? If it's going to store all the information in the original waveform, it can't be guaranteed to be any smaller. You will probably also find that existing compression tools won't do such a good job on it as they would on the raw .wav. Do you want to uniquely identify a .wav? Have a look at something like md5sums. This generates a number from the contents of the file which identifies the file as belonging to one of a finite number of sets each containing an infinite number of different files, the only one of which you'll ever manage to find is the one you generated the number from. Do you want to change the sound of the file in some way? It's probably easier to leave it as a .wav, and use sox / look at the source code of sox / read a book on DSP. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Unusual idea..
On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 05:22:42PM -0400, MJM wrote: > On Friday 08 August 2003 13:43, Pigeon wrote: > > read a book on DSP. > > Recommendations? ...would also be of interest to me! I'm no DSP expert; I merely know one or two basics, and bemoan the lack of good technical volumes in public libraries. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Unusual idea..
Micha Feigin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > You can never convert it into a single unique number. That can be proved > to be impossible. No, it can't. Counter-proof: let the MP3 represent a single number, base 256, where the first byte is the lowest-order digit, second byte next lowest order, etc. Every unique MP3 is now a unique (really, really big) number. -- Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - I am the rocks. "Fax licks mole a$$es..." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
