Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
https://www.mycause.com.au/page/183259/a-smile-will-change-a-day-love-that-changed-my-world From: Joe Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2018 7:10 PM To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: delop...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems) On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200 deloptes wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my > > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a > > pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years, > > and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as > > multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them > > reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal > > and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound > > devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the > > identity crisis. > > Hi, > for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use > stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for > playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try > testing it is usually stable. Outside the release freeze, testing is only a little more stable than unstable, and gets fixes later. In the long term, there's not a lot to choose. > > If you don't read/write code, I don't see why someone would use > unstable. As I mentioned ubuntu is much better to take in such a case > (Not a developer, but want to be ahead of debian time) Because there are a few applications still under development, they are seriously buggy and continuously increasing in features. Even a few weeks can make a big difference in functionality. I'm looking at you, libreoffice, libreCAD, geda PCB, etc... And since I'm not a professional developer, unstable is the practical way to donate to Debian, in the form of bug reports. All the work has already been done in stable. > > Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years. You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it existed. If you look up sound problems in conjunction with Linux, the wealth of results you get will tell you how it has been. Because it has happened over such a long period of time, almost all of what you find will be obsolete and completely worthless, which makes fixing the problems so frustrating. > Why? Because I did configure the system properly and I use stable. So > instead of "getting brutal" you could setup your system properly and > forget about the issues. "Properly", eh? You mean spending a few days messing around with those intuitive udev naming rules? Why should that be necessary? Surely, running a *sound* utility *once*, and telling it which sound card I want to use should be sufficient? Why should I need to mess around with system stuff in order to choose my sound card and prevent it toggling my choice now and then? That kind of stuff should happen automatically at installation time, once and for all. Possibly it does, now. > > One bad thing that people do is the install things on the production > system just to try them out. Take a second system - or a second drive > - or a second installation on the same driver. Test there and move to > the working environment, when you are sure it works. > With other works make backups before doing something on your > production system. Yes, it would be nice to have batches of identical computers, and nothing to do all day but mess about with them... this isn't a commercial system, and I have neither the time nor the money to treat it as one. I'm a computer *user*. -- Joe
Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
Cindy-Sue Causey wrote: ... > I did finally figuratively "run away" while very literally "shrieking" > one day because there were SO MANY upgrades. I wasn't able to do both > that and the advocacy that MUST be done from behind this keyboard > right now. That just doesn't work on dialup... unfortunately... or I > would still be on testing.. :) i used to use the debdelta package/service to speed things up and it did help quite a bit for certain packages but i have no idea if it is really kept up any longer. > The first time I did testing was for Stretch. That happened to be at > the end of the cycle just before it became stable. It spoiled me. > Upgrades are much rarer at that point because Developers have > consciously put a hold on any new tweaks so as to have a product > that's legitimately ready to wear the tag "stable". > > Something like that... :) > > BECAUSE things are getting ready to roll over again sooner than later, > I decided this week to try another testing debootstrap. In fact, let's > do that right now. See ya! Can't do that and chat online at the same > time, either, dialup yada-yada.. :D > > Cindy :) ok, so perhaps the above may help, or not, i don't think it costs much to use/install. songbird
Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
On 8/9/18, deloptes wrote: > Joe wrote: > >> On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200 >> deloptes wrote: >> >>> Joe wrote: >>> >>> > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my >>> > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a >>> > pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years, >>> > and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as >>> > multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them >>> > reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal >>> > and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound >>> > devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the >>> > identity crisis. >>> >>> Hi, >>> for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use >>> stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for >>> playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try >>> testing it is usually stable. >> >> Outside the release freeze, testing is only a little more stable than >> unstable, and gets fixes later. In the long term, there's not a lot to >> choose. > > don't think so because after unstable iteration, the fixes usually work > intesting. That was my experience with testing.. Buster. It worked great *for me*. I did finally figuratively "run away" while very literally "shrieking" one day because there were SO MANY upgrades. I wasn't able to do both that and the advocacy that MUST be done from behind this keyboard right now. That just doesn't work on dialup... unfortunately... or I would still be on testing.. :) The first time I did testing was for Stretch. That happened to be at the end of the cycle just before it became stable. It spoiled me. Upgrades are much rarer at that point because Developers have consciously put a hold on any new tweaks so as to have a product that's legitimately ready to wear the tag "stable". Something like that... :) BECAUSE things are getting ready to roll over again sooner than later, I decided this week to try another testing debootstrap. In fact, let's do that right now. See ya! Can't do that and chat online at the same time, either, dialup yada-yada.. :D Cindy :) -- Cindy-Sue Causey Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with duct tape *
Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
Joe wrote: > On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200 > deloptes wrote: > >> Joe wrote: >> >> > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my >> > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a >> > pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years, >> > and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as >> > multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them >> > reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal >> > and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound >> > devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the >> > identity crisis. >> >> Hi, >> for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use >> stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for >> playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try >> testing it is usually stable. > > Outside the release freeze, testing is only a little more stable than > unstable, and gets fixes later. In the long term, there's not a lot to > choose. don't think so because after unstable iteration, the fixes usually work intesting. >> >> If you don't read/write code, I don't see why someone would use >> unstable. As I mentioned ubuntu is much better to take in such a case >> (Not a developer, but want to be ahead of debian time) > > Because there are a few applications still under development, they are > seriously buggy and continuously increasing in features. Even a few > weeks can make a big difference in functionality. I'm looking at you, > libreoffice, libreCAD, geda PCB, etc... > This hasn't change much in the past 10 years - neither in stable nor in testing > And since I'm not a professional developer, unstable is the practical > way to donate to Debian, in the form of bug reports. All the work has > already been done in stable. > Well, I said - in VM ware. I would not relay on it for daily use. >> >> Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years. > > You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for > sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I > didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it > existed. > I put index in the driver setup long time ago - never had an issue - you don't need to mess up with udev rules - see there are intelligent hack and not so intelligent. One should learn to find and use the intelligent one. > If you look up sound problems in conjunction with Linux, the wealth of > results you get will tell you how it has been. Because it has happened > over such a long period of time, almost all of what you find will be > obsolete and completely worthless, which makes fixing the problems so > frustrating. > well - identify intelligent resolutions and apply - no problem - but is challenging - there are so many "experts" posting arround >> Why? Because I did configure the system properly and I use stable. So >> instead of "getting brutal" you could setup your system properly and >> forget about the issues. > > "Properly", eh? You mean spending a few days messing around with those > intuitive udev naming rules? Why should that be necessary? Surely, > running a *sound* utility *once*, and telling it which sound card I want > to use should be sufficient? Why should I need to mess around with > system stuff in order to choose my sound card and prevent it toggling > my choice now and then? That kind of stuff should happen automatically > at installation time, once and for all. Possibly it does, now. > Not at all - I spent few days understanding how it works and applying proper setup. One of my problems was and is still in some extend - bluetooth with pulseaudio. I want be able to play music from phone to PC. I ended up compiling pulseaudio and the latest release 11.99 pre seomthing managed to solve allthe issues, so guess when I update PA next time ... you can not guess - I will never remove this until there is something much better - means I have a working setup and the source for this in my control. It is not likely it will stop working soon. >> >> One bad thing that people do is the install things on the production >> system just to try them out. Take a second system - or a second drive >> - or a second installation on the same driver. Test there and move to >> the working environment, when you are sure it works. >> With other works make backups before doing something on your >> production system. > > Yes, it would be nice to have batches of identical computers, and > nothing to do all day but mess about with them... this isn't a > commercial system, and I have neither the time nor the money to treat > it as one. I'm a computer *user*. You just mentioned above you want to contribute to debian and this is why you take unstable - now contradicting yourself. Look I met guys like you. I just wanted to give you good advice. Accept it or not is your choice, but using
Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
On Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:14:44 +0200 deloptes wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my > > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a > > pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years, > > and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as > > multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them > > reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal > > and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound > > devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the > > identity crisis. > > Hi, > for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use > stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for > playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try > testing it is usually stable. Outside the release freeze, testing is only a little more stable than unstable, and gets fixes later. In the long term, there's not a lot to choose. > > If you don't read/write code, I don't see why someone would use > unstable. As I mentioned ubuntu is much better to take in such a case > (Not a developer, but want to be ahead of debian time) Because there are a few applications still under development, they are seriously buggy and continuously increasing in features. Even a few weeks can make a big difference in functionality. I'm looking at you, libreoffice, libreCAD, geda PCB, etc... And since I'm not a professional developer, unstable is the practical way to donate to Debian, in the form of bug reports. All the work has already been done in stable. > > Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years. You are fortunate. I went though a period where the assignments for sound card 0 and 1 would randomly flip, every few weeks or months. I didn't find whatever magical incantation would prevent this, if it existed. If you look up sound problems in conjunction with Linux, the wealth of results you get will tell you how it has been. Because it has happened over such a long period of time, almost all of what you find will be obsolete and completely worthless, which makes fixing the problems so frustrating. > Why? Because I did configure the system properly and I use stable. So > instead of "getting brutal" you could setup your system properly and > forget about the issues. "Properly", eh? You mean spending a few days messing around with those intuitive udev naming rules? Why should that be necessary? Surely, running a *sound* utility *once*, and telling it which sound card I want to use should be sufficient? Why should I need to mess around with system stuff in order to choose my sound card and prevent it toggling my choice now and then? That kind of stuff should happen automatically at installation time, once and for all. Possibly it does, now. > > One bad thing that people do is the install things on the production > system just to try them out. Take a second system - or a second drive > - or a second installation on the same driver. Test there and move to > the working environment, when you are sure it works. > With other works make backups before doing something on your > production system. Yes, it would be nice to have batches of identical computers, and nothing to do all day but mess about with them... this isn't a commercial system, and I have neither the time nor the money to treat it as one. I'm a computer *user*. -- Joe
Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
Joe wrote: > Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my > sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a pig > on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years, and > until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as multiple > NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them reliably. I've > solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal and actually ripping > out and blacklisting drivers for the sound devices I'm not using. > Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the identity crisis. Hi, for my workstation (I want to turn it on and just work), I use stable. For my server(s) the same. IMO Sid belongs in a VM for playing arround. If you want to be one step ahead of time, try testing it is usually stable. If you don't read/write code, I don't see why someone would use unstable. As I mentioned ubuntu is much better to take in such a case (Not a developer, but want to be ahead of debian time) Regarding the sound - I never had a problem in the past 12+ years. Why? Because I did configure the system properly and I use stable. So instead of "getting brutal" you could setup your system properly and forget about the issues. One bad thing that people do is the install things on the production system just to try them out. Take a second system - or a second drive - or a second installation on the same driver. Test there and move to the working environment, when you are sure it works. With other works make backups before doing something on your production system. regards
Re: Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
On Wed, 08 Aug 2018 13:13:32 +0200 Rodolfo Medina wrote: > Curt writes: > > > On 2018-08-07, deloptes wrote: > >> Curt wrote: > >> > >>> He means it's self-explanatory given you're using testing and > >>> when using testing shit happens (things break) > >> > >> its not even testing it is sid - as far as I know it is after > >> testing and there even more shit happens, so I don't understand > >> why he/she should bother us or we should bother answering. > >> This definitely is not a user query but rather something that goes > >> to package/support etc. > > > > Right, sorry, Sid is unstable not testing, which is even more > > "self-explanatory." > > > deloptes, Curt, I understand what you say so that I'm considering > downgrading to Stable. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that the > debian-user list should not discuss problems arising from the use of > Sid. After all, my recent experience with Sid and two problems > coming up: `no sound' and `su/sudo', gave birth and occasion for an > interesting discussion with a lot of passionate users taking part to > it (the `su/sudo' one). Discussions that turn to be useful and > clarifying also for Stable of course. Secondarily, what is important > I think to point out is the fact that I've been using Sid for may > years now - I that am not expert at all - and, after all, the > problems that I've had using Sid were of minor issue. Consider for > example these two latest: the `no sound' problem were easily solved > simply removing pulseaudio, and the `su/sudo' one was just a matter > of doing, since now on, `su -' in place of `su': not a big one. > Yes, there's no suggestion that this list is 'stable-only', just that sid users should expect a certain amount of trouble. Having said that, I don't think I've had more sound problems with my sid workstations than with my stable server. Sound is generally a pig on Linux, as the software base seems to change every few years, and until recently, multiple sound cards had the same problem as multiple NICs in that the OS couldn't seem to identify them reliably. I've solved most of my sound problems by getting brutal and actually ripping out and blacklisting drivers for the sound devices I'm not using. Nothing less seemed to permanently solve the identity crisis. -- Joe
Using Sid (was: New `no sound' problems)
Curt writes: > On 2018-08-07, deloptes wrote: >> Curt wrote: >> >>> He means it's self-explanatory given you're using testing and when using >>> testing shit happens (things break) >> >> its not even testing it is sid - as far as I know it is after testing and >> there even more shit happens, so I don't understand why he/she should >> bother us or we should bother answering. >> This definitely is not a user query but rather something that goes to >> package/support etc. > > Right, sorry, Sid is unstable not testing, which is even more > "self-explanatory." deloptes, Curt, I understand what you say so that I'm considering downgrading to Stable. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that the debian-user list should not discuss problems arising from the use of Sid. After all, my recent experience with Sid and two problems coming up: `no sound' and `su/sudo', gave birth and occasion for an interesting discussion with a lot of passionate users taking part to it (the `su/sudo' one). Discussions that turn to be useful and clarifying also for Stable of course. Secondarily, what is important I think to point out is the fact that I've been using Sid for may years now - I that am not expert at all - and, after all, the problems that I've had using Sid were of minor issue. Consider for example these two latest: the `no sound' problem were easily solved simply removing pulseaudio, and the `su/sudo' one was just a matter of doing, since now on, `su -' in place of `su': not a big one. Thanks, cheers, Rodolfo
