Re: Why I left Debian

[Damon L. Chesser]

Sven Arvidsson wrote:

On Sun, 2006-10-29 at 10:53 -0600, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
  
You are right. It is not. Nor are the w32codecs you need to watch video. 
Nor are they included in any distro I know of due to legal reasons, by 
default. This is not a Debian issue, it is a Linux/DRM/Copy right issue. 



The w32codecs package isn't really needed for most video formats. The
only mainstream ones I can think of is the newest Real Video ones. 


What you need are players with a recent ffmpeg version. ffmpeg supports
most formats, for example WMV9.

  

This is news to me, and good news at that!  Thanks!

--
Damon L. Chesser
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Sun, 2006-10-29 at 10:53 -0600, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
> You are right. It is not. Nor are the w32codecs you need to watch video. 
> Nor are they included in any distro I know of due to legal reasons, by 
> default. This is not a Debian issue, it is a Linux/DRM/Copy right issue. 

The w32codecs package isn't really needed for most video formats. The
only mainstream ones I can think of is the newest Real Video ones. 

What you need are players with a recent ffmpeg version. ffmpeg supports
most formats, for example WMV9.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 760BDD22



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Re: Why I left Debian

[John L Fjellstad]

Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Indeed I just grab a Ubuntu DVD (labelled 'Dapper-drake 6.06 LTS'
> which looks very recent).  Ubuntu is based and so I'll probably try it
> as a replacement of etch.

Ubuntu Edgy Edge got releases on the 26th.

-- 
John L. Fjellstad
web: http://www.fjellstad.org/  Quis custodiet ipsos custodes


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Damon L. Chesser]

Bruno wrote:

On Sunday 29 October 2006 02:14, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
...

  

I 'll say that Debian detect correctly the hardware on my laptob (Dell
Aspire 9100). Except, it seems, video card ATI Radeon x600 for which I
had to install different stuffs fglrx and ati as it was not able to do
3D.

But I'm not sure about that because I have the feeling that 3D support is
in fact not included in the standard etch reposititories (but I might be
wrong on this last asumption...)

Bruno
  

No, you are right, but as far as I know, it is NOT included by default
in any Linux.  Nos Suse, not FC, not Ubuntu, not Debian, not any I have
tried.

--
Damon L. Chesser
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Hummm...I'm not sure about this : in fact I just installed KUbuntu 6.06 on my 
laptop and found 'DRI enabled' (in Xorg.0.log) which should confirm (correct 
me if I'm wrong) that 3d is available.


Bruno


  

Disclaimer, I missed this from your post

"3D support is in fact not included in the /*standard*/ etch repositories"



You are right. It is not. Nor are the w32codecs you need to watch video. 
Nor are they included in any distro I know of due to legal reasons, by 
default. This is not a Debian issue, it is a Linux/DRM/Copy right issue. 
I went to kubuntu.org and I found on this page instructions on how to 
set up ATI 3d drivers:


http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/hardware.html

quote:


   3D ATI Video Card Driver

  1.

 Install the *xorg-driver-fglrx* package from the /Restricted/
 repository (see Chapter 3, /Adding, Removing and Updating
 Applications/
 ).

  2.

 echo fglrx | sudo tee -a /etc/modules
 sudo depmod -a ; sudo modprobe fglrx
 sudo cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf_backup 
 sudo sed -i -e 's/"ati"/"fglrx"/' /etc/X11/xorg.conf


  3.

 If you are using an NForce2-based motherboard you will also need
 to do the following:

 kdesu kate /etc/X11/xorg.conf

 Change “Section "Device"” add the following line:

 Option  "UseInternalAGPGART" "no"

  4.

 Restart your machine for changes to take effect.

end quote

That leaves me to believe two things:
1. That it is not installed by default (though ati drivers are, NOT 3d)
2. That the install might be somewhat easier then in Debian, but that is 
only because they allready installed all the other pieces ATI 3d needs 
to run. No doubt to make it easier to do other kernel module things with 
out having to compile your own.


Keep in mind that I am not that familiar ATI as I only have one box with 
that card. I tend to set it up and forget it.


Also, I am not knocking your choice to use FC or any other distro, I 
just wanted to point out that I personally do not know of a distro that 
configures ATI "out of the box". Libranet used to, but Libranet is dead. 
A better comparison to FC then Sarge would be Sid. I think you would 
find that Sid is much more stable then FC. But: and this is a big BUT, 
it does come with a 50/50 warranty: If it breaks you will own both 
parts. Before you jump onto Sid (if you ever do) you should be able to 
trouble shoot your way out of a bad upgrade, know when an upgrade might 
break things, or be able and willing to learn how to do these things.


Debian is first and foremost a distro designed to be run on a server and 
be rock solid stable. That is why the stable branch has "old" software. 
New means untested. If you can run it on a desktop/laptop with new 
hardware that is a bonus! Woot! Any comparison of Debian stable to any 
other distro out there is not valid unless you take that into account 
(for example, you can't compare FC5 to stable, but RHEL-4 to stable IS 
valid)


To make the correct comparison, compare the latest FC release to Sid. 
You will find that Debian holds up very well indeed and you still get to 
keep your apt-get. Drawbacks: Since Debian is about installing what you 
need, YOU need to configure your environment (3d vid, wireless (if you 
need ndiswrapper, or need to go get firmware, etc). You will need to 
have someone (like this mailing list or a real live person) you can 
bounce help question off of. You might well need to be very good at 
google to find config answers to your questions.


If you think that, after measuring all this against 
FC5/Mandriva/Suse10.1 it is lacking and to hard then I advise you do 
this: Search those other distros forums. Look at their mailing lists. 
Jump on to their IRC channels and hang out and monitor the newbie 
questions. They are flooded! I can't use this, this config will not 
work, how do I get XYZ running? I upgraded to the latest point update 
and now my system will not work! etc, etc, etc.


As for testing (etch) I advise all new guys to stay out! Testing is for 
testing. If testing breaks, nobody really cares until you get close to a 
release cycle. Either use stable or Sid. Stable will give you stability, 
Sid 

Re: Why I left Debian

[Hal Vaughan]

On Sunday 29 October 2006 06:29, Karl Goetz wrote:
> Bruno wrote:
> > On Sunday 29 October 2006 02:14, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >>> I 'll say that Debian detect correctly the hardware on my laptob
> >>> (Dell Aspire 9100). Except, it seems, video card ATI Radeon x600
> >>> for which I had to install different stuffs fglrx and ati as it
> >>> was not able to do 3D.
> >>>
> >>> But I'm not sure about that because I have the feeling that 3D
> >>> support is in fact not included in the standard etch
> >>> reposititories (but I might be wrong on this last asumption...)
> >>>
> >>> Bruno
> >>
> >> No, you are right, but as far as I know, it is NOT included by
> >> default in any Linux.  Nos Suse, not FC, not Ubuntu, not Debian,
> >> not any I have tried.
> >
> > Hummm...I'm not sure about this : in fact I just installed KUbuntu
> > 6.06 on my laptop and found 'DRI enabled' (in Xorg.0.log) which
> > should confirm (correct me if I'm wrong) that 3d is available.
> >
> > Bruno
>
> Ubuntu ships Nvidia and ATI binary drivers (infact all of
> linux-restricted-modules-*) on the install cds, its installed by
> default. kk

Maybe in Edgy, but that didn't happen on my system when I installed 
Dapper.  Ubunutu, like many distros, focuses on the free software.  I 
had to go to a separate non-free one for Flash, Acrobat, and the NVidia 
drivers.  When I did the first install of the full system, I tested my 
card with a game that slows down the entire system if the NVidia 
drivers are not installed and it brought my system to a crawl.  I quit 
it, added the non-free repository, installed the NVidia drivers, 
restarted X, and the game ran fine.

Hal


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Miles Bader]

Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hummm...I'm not sure about this : in fact I just installed KUbuntu
> 6.06 on my laptop and found 'DRI enabled' (in Xorg.0.log) which should
> confirm (correct me if I'm wrong) that 3d is available.

On my work machine, running debian unstable, it says the same thing,
with no special effort from me; the glxinfo program (part of the
mesa-utils package) also says "direct rendering: Yes".

[Not that this makes much speed difference; it's an Intel i845G on the
motherboard though, and as far as I know those are just really
crappy) :-]

-Miles
-- 
Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it
has to be us.  -- Jerry Garcia


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Tim Post]

That doesn't mean its not an experimental OS :), and Wikipedia is a
cluster .. much different application and use of FC5. 

Building a cluster is quite a bit different than installing an OS on
your laptop. FC5 has support for all kinds of file systems and
hardware .. but not yet tried / tested.

Sarge is tried, tested and stable. 

Not saying FC(x) can't be made to work beautifully, just don't count on
it out of the box .. as you were counting on Etch working well out of
the box .. or you may be in for a disappointment.

HTH,

-Tim

On Sun, 2006-10-29 at 10:41 +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote:
> On 10/28/06, Tim Post <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2006-10-28 at 15:09 +0200, Bruno wrote:
> >
> > > However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if 
> > > yum
> > > is so far behind dpkg).
> > >
> > > Bye,
> > > Bruno
> > >
> >
> > Fedora is an *experimental* operating system, etch is a *beta*. Neither
> > one should be used in any kind of production setting, production being
> > defined as you need all features and packages working all of the time.
> 
> I heard that Fedora Core 5 runs wikipedia.org.
> 
> 


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Gerard Robin]

On Sun, Oct 29, 2006 at 10:20:24AM +1100, M-L wrote:

From: M-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Why I left Debian
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On Saturday 28 October 2006 23:09, Bruno shared this with us all:

--> Hello,
-->
--> I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used
Debian --> for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
-->
--> So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had
Fedora-5 on --> it) just to try it and because I think is good and
important to try other --> distros when you have some free partition /
computer and time to do it. -->
--> Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :
-->
--> - as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common
that I --> was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout
session' --> which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.
-->
--> - recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on
previous --> version because latest version continuously break apt-get
repository. Only --> cost few hours of googling to find a solution.
-->
--> - 'kde su root' reject root password (...which was accepted in a 'su
root' in --> a console)
-->
--> - flgrx / mesa / libGL often block apt-get update/upgrade seems because
of a --> dependency about libGL. Difficult to install a 3D system but even
more --> difficult to keep it stable that I decide to forget 3D when using
etch on my --> laptop.
-->
--> - others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..
-->
--> Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a
superb --> distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated
to 'Linux --> techies' ?
--> However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if
yum --> is so far behind dpkg).
-->
--> Bye,
--> Bruno


Hello Bruno,

Laptops can be a pig to get working with any distro, especially if they are 
new on the retail counter.


If you're new to Debian or any Linux distro, you will have to do a bit of 
reading a bit of asking and then a bit of tweaking. 

Taking Linux Debian as an example, install stable, Sarge in this case, and 
then check out the problems and try to discover why they are being caused. In 
my own case, I started with Woody, but it wouldn't touch some of the hardware 
in my lappy. So then moved to Sarge while it was testing, and discovered what 
had to be done to get the system up and running, and then moved it to Etch, 
another testing. Where things get broken, but you either have to have the 
patience to be able to work around something till the next upgrade stream, or 
learn the way to fix it yourself.


Linux Debian is a philosophy I think. Not a geeks distro, but rather an 
lifelong learning experience. You are always embarrassed by the options 
available in Debian. But if you're set in your ways, won't use Lyx, Abiword, 
or something else when OpenOffice.org doesn't cut it for you before the next 
update stream in testing. Stay in stable and look at backports.


When you get everything working on your system, in Debian, you have already 
gleaned a great deal of knowledge about your system and the way Debian works. 
Then you hit testing and "laffs at things broken for a little while." If you 
only want a stable system that works a treat, then you want any Debian stable 
system, and if it doesn't work with your hardware to do all you want. Run 
your system through a testing version of Debian till it all works, and stay 
there if you feel comfortable with it. There are quite a few people still 
running Debian Woody, because they know it and it works. New hardware or 
something else might move them on. But it will always be their own choice to 
do something that also requires the shift.


There is no best system in Linux, there is only what you want to do, how you 
want to do it, and your outlook on life. I am certain that Fedora is also 
very good. I don;t think their is a bad Linux system, or none that I have 
tried at any rate. But Debian suits me best, because it suits my character.


Your speech for the defense of Debian ( and fo linux in general) is very 
good and I agree with you, but we are not culprit to use Debian.
I think that the builders of laptops have a big respnsability in the fact 
that the free OS have problem with the laptops. 

For example I look at an acer laptop: 
acer writes : acer recommand Windows XP.


I phoned to acer (in France) and when I prononced the word linux my
correspondent hang up ...

The world of linux (free) isn't free in the "world said as free" !   


--
Gérard

Re: Why I left Debian

[Karl Goetz]

Bruno wrote:

On Sunday 29 October 2006 02:14, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
...

  

I 'll say that Debian detect correctly the hardware on my laptob (Dell
Aspire 9100). Except, it seems, video card ATI Radeon x600 for which I
had to install different stuffs fglrx and ati as it was not able to do
3D.

But I'm not sure about that because I have the feeling that 3D support is
in fact not included in the standard etch reposititories (but I might be
wrong on this last asumption...)

Bruno
  

No, you are right, but as far as I know, it is NOT included by default
in any Linux.  Nos Suse, not FC, not Ubuntu, not Debian, not any I have
tried.



Hummm...I'm not sure about this : in fact I just installed KUbuntu 6.06 on my 
laptop and found 'DRI enabled' (in Xorg.0.log) which should confirm (correct 
me if I'm wrong) that 3d is available.


Bruno
Ubuntu ships Nvidia and ATI binary drivers (infact all of 
linux-restricted-modules-*) on the install cds, its installed by default.

kk

--
Karl Goetz
The buck stops there -> $
Australian Ubuntu users team - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AustralianTeam


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Bruno]

On Sunday 29 October 2006 02:14, Damon L. Chesser wrote:
...

> >
> > I 'll say that Debian detect correctly the hardware on my laptob (Dell
> > Aspire 9100). Except, it seems, video card ATI Radeon x600 for which I
> > had to install different stuffs fglrx and ati as it was not able to do
> > 3D.
> >
> > But I'm not sure about that because I have the feeling that 3D support is
> > in fact not included in the standard etch reposititories (but I might be
> > wrong on this last asumption...)
> >
> > Bruno
>
> No, you are right, but as far as I know, it is NOT included by default
> in any Linux.  Nos Suse, not FC, not Ubuntu, not Debian, not any I have
> tried.
>
> --
> Damon L. Chesser
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hummm...I'm not sure about this : in fact I just installed KUbuntu 6.06 on my 
laptop and found 'DRI enabled' (in Xorg.0.log) which should confirm (correct 
me if I'm wrong) that 3d is available.

Bruno


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Tshepang Lekhonkhobe]

On 10/28/06, Tim Post <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sat, 2006-10-28 at 15:09 +0200, Bruno wrote:

> However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if yum
> is so far behind dpkg).
>
> Bye,
> Bruno
>

Fedora is an *experimental* operating system, etch is a *beta*. Neither
one should be used in any kind of production setting, production being
defined as you need all features and packages working all of the time.


I heard that Fedora Core 5 runs wikipedia.org.


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Damon L. Chesser]

Steve Lamb wrote:

Damon L. Chesser wrote:
  

No, you are right, but as far as I know, it is NOT included by default
in any Linux.  Nos Suse, not FC, not Ubuntu, not Debian, not any I have
tried.



Mepis?  One of my on-again-off-again projects is to drop Windows for my
gaming platform.  Switching to OSX is one option but it's major drawback is
that I am praying for developers to port to it.

The other is Cedega layered over a Debian distribution.  However since it
is my game machine I don't want to twiddle with making audio/video work.  The
point of the game box is to turn it on and relax not tinker with stuff that
can get quite frustrating.

To that end I tried Fedora as a base for Cedega but it honked me off about
5 minutes after a fresh install.  Switched over to Mepis and it does have
automatic ATI/nVidia drivers install in the same amount of time as Windows
does.  IE, about 1 reboot.

Of course my game machine is ATI and ATI's driver support barely covers
enough to get 3D started.  Last I tried CoH, CSS and WoW all didn't work.  :/

Anyway, point is there's at least one distro out there that is kind to
people who want high-end 3D.

  
I know of a newbie to Linux who swears by Mandriva 2006 Power Pack.  He 
says it comes with cedega and he can play games on it.  I have not 
verified this.  I also know that upgrading to Mandriva 2007 completely 
borked his Xorg.  I also know that he has to pay a subscription fee to 
Mandriva to be a member of their "club" to get access to these ISO's.


I have never tried Mepis or Mandriva.

--
Damon L. Chesser
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Hal Vaughan]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 14:39, Mark Grieveson wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I
> > used Debian for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving
> > it.
>
> Hmm.  Why on earth would anyone use Linux, and not want to start
> flame wars?  That's part of the fun.

I don't think so.  I'm working over 14 hours a day getting my business 
running and setting things up so I can one day work fewer hours and 
still make more money.  I've got too much work and too many things I 
want to do in my time off to spend time pissing people off.

But, as usual, ymmv.

Hal


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Steve Lamb]

Damon L. Chesser wrote:
> No, you are right, but as far as I know, it is NOT included by default
> in any Linux.  Nos Suse, not FC, not Ubuntu, not Debian, not any I have
> tried.

Mepis?  One of my on-again-off-again projects is to drop Windows for my
gaming platform.  Switching to OSX is one option but it's major drawback is
that I am praying for developers to port to it.

The other is Cedega layered over a Debian distribution.  However since it
is my game machine I don't want to twiddle with making audio/video work.  The
point of the game box is to turn it on and relax not tinker with stuff that
can get quite frustrating.

To that end I tried Fedora as a base for Cedega but it honked me off about
5 minutes after a fresh install.  Switched over to Mepis and it does have
automatic ATI/nVidia drivers install in the same amount of time as Windows
does.  IE, about 1 reboot.

Of course my game machine is ATI and ATI's driver support barely covers
enough to get 3D started.  Last I tried CoH, CSS and WoW all didn't work.  :/

Anyway, point is there's at least one distro out there that is kind to
people who want high-end 3D.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Re: Why I left Debian

[Damon L. Chesser]

Bruno wrote:

On Saturday 28 October 2006 20:50, Pollywog wrote:
  

On Saturday 28 October 2006 14:42, Bruno wrote:


Thanks I'll certainly re-try later Debian and etch.
Especially because I already put stikers 'Debian' on my laptop and would
not like to remove them ;-)

Bruno
  

Did Debian detect all the hardware on your laptop?  The reason I removed
Debian from my laptop (I run Debian on two desktops) is that it would not
detect the modem (a "winmodem") or the wifi interface.  I then tried
Xandros and it did not detect them either, but Linspire detected all
hardware.  I now have Linspire and Freespire installed on the laptop.

I did not try Ubuntu or Kubuntu but those might be good choices.


8)



I 'll say that Debian detect correctly the hardware on my laptob (Dell Aspire 
9100). Except, it seems, video card ATI Radeon x600 for which I had to 
install different stuffs fglrx and ati as it was not able to do 3D.


But I'm not sure about that because I have the feeling that 3D support is 
in fact not included in the standard etch reposititories (but I might be wrong 
on this last asumption...)


Bruno


  
No, you are right, but as far as I know, it is NOT included by default 
in any Linux.  Nos Suse, not FC, not Ubuntu, not Debian, not any I have 
tried.


--
Damon L. Chesser
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2006-10-28 23:09:18 +0800, Tim Post wrote:
> If you want to tinker, check out www.backports.org , and sit down for an
> evening to install Sarge and then pick and choose what you need.

Sarge can't be installed directly on recent machines, because the
kernel it provides doesn't recognize SATA disks.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arenaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: Why I left Debian

[M-L]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 23:09, Bruno shared this with us all:
>--> Hello,
>-->
>--> I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used
> Debian --> for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
>-->
>--> So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had
> Fedora-5 on --> it) just to try it and because I think is good and
> important to try other --> distros when you have some free partition /
> computer and time to do it. -->
>--> Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :
>-->
>--> - as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common
> that I --> was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout
> session' --> which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.
>-->
>--> - recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on
> previous --> version because latest version continuously break apt-get
> repository. Only --> cost few hours of googling to find a solution.
>-->
>--> - 'kde su root' reject root password (...which was accepted in a 'su
> root' in --> a console)
>-->
>--> - flgrx / mesa / libGL often block apt-get update/upgrade seems because
> of a --> dependency about libGL. Difficult to install a 3D system but even
> more --> difficult to keep it stable that I decide to forget 3D when using
> etch on my --> laptop.
>-->
>--> - others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..
>-->
>--> Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a
> superb --> distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated
> to 'Linux --> techies' ?
>--> However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if
> yum --> is so far behind dpkg).
>-->
>--> Bye,
>--> Bruno

Hello Bruno,

Laptops can be a pig to get working with any distro, especially if they are 
new on the retail counter.

If you're new to Debian or any Linux distro, you will have to do a bit of 
reading a bit of asking and then a bit of tweaking. 

Taking Linux Debian as an example, install stable, Sarge in this case, and 
then check out the problems and try to discover why they are being caused. In 
my own case, I started with Woody, but it wouldn't touch some of the hardware 
in my lappy. So then moved to Sarge while it was testing, and discovered what 
had to be done to get the system up and running, and then moved it to Etch, 
another testing. Where things get broken, but you either have to have the 
patience to be able to work around something till the next upgrade stream, or 
learn the way to fix it yourself.

Linux Debian is a philosophy I think. Not a geeks distro, but rather an 
lifelong learning experience. You are always embarrassed by the options 
available in Debian. But if you're set in your ways, won't use Lyx, Abiword, 
or something else when OpenOffice.org doesn't cut it for you before the next 
update stream in testing. Stay in stable and look at backports.

When you get everything working on your system, in Debian, you have already 
gleaned a great deal of knowledge about your system and the way Debian works. 
Then you hit testing and "laffs at things broken for a little while." If you 
only want a stable system that works a treat, then you want any Debian stable 
system, and if it doesn't work with your hardware to do all you want. Run 
your system through a testing version of Debian till it all works, and stay 
there if you feel comfortable with it. There are quite a few people still 
running Debian Woody, because they know it and it works. New hardware or 
something else might move them on. But it will always be their own choice to 
do something that also requires the shift.

There is no best system in Linux, there is only what you want to do, how you 
want to do it, and your outlook on life. I am certain that Fedora is also 
very good. I don;t think their is a bad Linux system, or none that I have 
tried at any rate. But Debian suits me best, because it suits my character.

HTH
Be well,
Charlie

-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
+++
Of what significance are the things you can 
forget. .Henry David Thoreau

>>>
Linux Debian Etch


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Re: Why I left Debian

[tom arnall]

On Sunday 29 October 2006 07:18, steef wrote:
> Bruno wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used
> > Debian for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
> >
> > So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5
> > on it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try
> > other distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do
> > it.
> >
> > Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :
> >
> > - as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common
> > that I was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout
> > session' which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.
> >
> > - recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on
> > previous version because latest version continuously break apt-get
> > repository. Only cost few hours of googling to find a solution.
> >
> > - 'kde su root' reject root password (...which was accepted in a 'su
> > root' in a console)
> >
> > - flgrx / mesa / libGL often block apt-get update/upgrade seems because
> > of a dependency about libGL. Difficult to install a 3D system but even
> > more difficult to keep it stable that I decide to forget 3D when using
> > etch on my laptop.
> >
> > - others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..
> >
> > Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a
> > superb distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to
> > 'Linux techies' ?
> > However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if
> > yum is so far behind dpkg).

Bruno,

Reading your posts definitely strikes a sympathetic chord with me. My take on 
this kind of thing is that free software is not software for nothing. Rather, 
it is software that sets people free to an amazing degree from slavery to the 
owning classes. And part and parcel of this freedom is giving back to the 
community. For some this may mean trying something like Debian and deciding 
it's not for them >and making public the reasons for their decision. For 
others giving back is trying directly to solve problems in the community. I 
hope that in the future both of us will be able to make contributions of the 
latter type. 

tom arnall
north spit, ca
usa


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Pollywog]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 20:24, Douglas Tutty wrote:

>
> I'm assuming you tried Etch because your hardware was too new to install
> Sarge (the current stable).  It is frustrating to have new hardware and
> no stable distro to install on it.  Fortunatly, I find myself in that
> predicament only every 10 years or so :)

I had never had that problem until very recently. My new machine refused 
Sarge, so I had to install Etch.  Is this a common problem for people who get 
new machines?


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Bruno]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 20:50, Pollywog wrote:
> On Saturday 28 October 2006 14:42, Bruno wrote:
> > Thanks I'll certainly re-try later Debian and etch.
> > Especially because I already put stikers 'Debian' on my laptop and would
> > not like to remove them ;-)
> >
> > Bruno
>
> Did Debian detect all the hardware on your laptop?  The reason I removed
> Debian from my laptop (I run Debian on two desktops) is that it would not
> detect the modem (a "winmodem") or the wifi interface.  I then tried
> Xandros and it did not detect them either, but Linspire detected all
> hardware.  I now have Linspire and Freespire installed on the laptop.
>
> I did not try Ubuntu or Kubuntu but those might be good choices.
>
>
> 8)

I 'll say that Debian detect correctly the hardware on my laptob (Dell Aspire 
9100). Except, it seems, video card ATI Radeon x600 for which I had to 
install different stuffs fglrx and ati as it was not able to do 3D.

But I'm not sure about that because I have the feeling that 3D support is 
in fact not included in the standard etch reposititories (but I might be wrong 
on this last asumption...)

Bruno


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Bruno]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 18:24, Zoran Kolic wrote:
> > I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used
> > Debian for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
>
> It is not a living thing. Has it's
> own purpose and fulfils it. Anyway,
> linux is user friendly this days.
>
> > - as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common
> > that I was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout
> > session' which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.
>
> Etch is not stable. Some laptops are
> culprits for one reason or another,
> rather than debian. Broken acpi, bad
> bios, cheap nics...
>
> > - recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on
> > previous version because latest version continuously break apt-get
> > repository. Only cost few hours of googling to find a solution.
>
> That's the best part. Fun!!!
>
> > - others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..
>
> Fantastic! You found it by yourself.
>
> > Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a
> > superb distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to
> > 'Linux techies' ?
>
> Some kind of weasel?!
> Come back in december, for weasel feat.
>
> Zoran

I'll certainly be back in December.
So, Etch and all debian guys, see u soon ;-)

Bruno



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Re: Why I left Debian

[Douglas Tutty]

On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 03:09:14PM +0200, Bruno wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used Debian 
> for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
> 
> So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5 on 
> it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try other 
> distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do it.
> 
> Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :
(I'll summarize as instability).

So let me understand.  You're comparing stable Fedora-5 to an early
testing Etch Debian?

I'm assuming you tried Etch because your hardware was too new to install
Sarge (the current stable).  It is frustrating to have new hardware and
no stable distro to install on it.  Fortunatly, I find myself in that
predicament only every 10 years or so :)

I would suggest you keep that partition free and as time permits try
Etch again.  In the interim, I hope your current distro continues to be
satisfactory.

Doug.


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Pollywog]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 14:42, Bruno wrote:

> Thanks I'll certainly re-try later Debian and etch.
> Especially because I already put stikers 'Debian' on my laptop and would
> not like to remove them ;-)
>
> Bruno

Did Debian detect all the hardware on your laptop?  The reason I removed 
Debian from my laptop (I run Debian on two desktops) is that it would not 
detect the modem (a "winmodem") or the wifi interface.  I then tried Xandros 
and it did not detect them either, but Linspire detected all hardware.  I now 
have Linspire and Freespire installed on the laptop.

I did not try Ubuntu or Kubuntu but those might be good choices.


8)


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Mark Grieveson]

Hello,

I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used Debian 
for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
  
Hmm.  Why on earth would anyone use Linux, and not want to start flame 
wars?  That's part of the fun.

Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :

- as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. 
  
I think the package initscripts, and/or the package sysv-rc, would solve 
this.

Bye,
Bruno
  

Ciao!

Mark


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Pollywog]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 13:09, Bruno wrote:

> Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a
> superb distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to
> 'Linux techies' ?
> However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if
> yum is so far behind dpkg).
>

My first Linux experience was with Caldera OpenLinux.  After a year or so of 
that, I moved to Debian Hamm or Slink and I can't imagine going back to an 
rpm-based distribution.

If you like the Debian packaging system but think Debian is for "techies", I 
suggest you try Xandros, Linspire, or Freespire.  Freespire might be 
too "techy" but you might want to try it anyway and it is available at no 
cost.  If you want a Linux that works "out of the box", Linspire and Xandros 
are very good Debianish distros.


8)


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Zoran Kolic]

> I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used Debian 
> for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.

It is not a living thing. Has it's
own purpose and fulfils it. Anyway,
linux is user friendly this days.

> - as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common that I
> was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout session' 
> which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.

Etch is not stable. Some laptops are
culprits for one reason or another,
rather than debian. Broken acpi, bad
bios, cheap nics...

> - recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on previous
> version because latest version continuously break apt-get repository. Only 
> cost few hours of googling to find a solution.

That's the best part. Fun!!!

> - others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..

Fantastic! You found it by yourself.

> Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a superb 
> distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to 'Linux 
> techies' ?

Some kind of weasel?!
Come back in december, for weasel feat.

Zoran



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Re: Why I left Debian

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 10/28/06 10:15, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 09:42:58AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> On 10/28/06 09:16, Carl Fink wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2006 at 04:18:29PM +0100, steef wrote:
>>> 
 etch is a *testing* distro. why not try sarge (stable)
 first *before* thinking of turning back to fedora?
>>> He has modern hardware, or wants to run modern software?
>> Ubuntu 6.05
> 
> The question was "Why not run Sarge?"  I agree that Ubuntu might
> be a good alternative to Etch for the non-experimenter.

Modern versions of software.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

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LxJqvjz6k7OL/6pZOi//wtM=
=ZMIH
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Jerome BENOIT]

Bruno wrote:

On Saturday 28 October 2006 15:37, Jerome BENOIT wrote:

Hello,

why did you not try first the current stable version of Debian ?

Cheers,
Jerome

Bruno wrote:

Hello,

I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used
Debian for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.

So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5
on it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try
other distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do
it.

Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :

- as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common
that I was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout
session' which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.

- recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on
previous version because latest version continuously break apt-get
repository. Only cost few hours of googling to find a solution.

- 'kde su root' reject root password (...which was accepted in a 'su
root' in a console)

- flgrx / mesa / libGL often block apt-get update/upgrade seems because
of a dependency about libGL. Difficult to install a 3D system but even
more difficult to keep it stable that I decide to forget 3D when using
etch on my laptop.

- others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..

Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a
superb distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to
'Linux techies' ?
However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if
yum is so far behind dpkg).

Bye,
Bruno

--
Jerome BENOIT
jgmbenoit_at_mailsnare_dot_net


You're right. However IMHO versioning at Debian looks confusing, or (more 
correctly) at least make me confused : Etch is out since a long time now and 
people (obvously wrongly) consider it as 99+% mature even if 
labelled 'testing'.


Cycles are long for Debian: the criteria is stability and nothing else:
so `testing' really means testing as you had noticed despite yourself,
`unstable' is really unstable, and `stable' is solid rock.
When you install testing on your box, you must be ready for the worst:
a few days ago there were troubles with the Xorg stuff, namely no more
working Xserver: I you are not ready to face this kind of issue,
you must consider the `stable' distribution. With some experience, you can
easily manage issue in testing, but first you must familiarise yourself with
the stable distribution.


In fact, I read somewhere that the delivery cycle will be reviewed to make it 
more 'readable' (I didn't wrote 'commercial'), is that correct ? 



I have not heard about this part.

Jerome





--
Jerome BENOIT
jgmbenoit_at_mailsnare_dot_net


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Carl Fink]

On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 09:42:58AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 10/28/06 09:16, Carl Fink wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 29, 2006 at 04:18:29PM +0100, steef wrote:
> > 
> >> etch is a *testing* distro. why not try sarge (stable) first *before* 
> >> thinking of turning back to fedora?
> > 
> > He has modern hardware, or wants to run modern software?
> 
> Ubuntu 6.05

The question was "Why not run Sarge?"  I agree that Ubuntu might be a good
alternative to Etch for the non-experimenter.
-- 
Carl Fink   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Read my blog at nitpickingblog.blogspot.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Bruno]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 15:48, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used
> > Debian for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
> >
> > So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5
> > on it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try
> > other distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do
> > it.
>
> Just to be sure, you do know etch is the "testing" distribution? If you
> want an (almost) unbreakable system you should try sarge or try
> etch again when it is released (should be in December).
>
> Good luck,
> Andrei
> --
> If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
> (Albert Einstein)

Thanks I'll certainly re-try later Debian and etch.
Especially because I already put stikers 'Debian' on my laptop and would not 
like to remove them ;-)

Bruno


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Bruno]

On Saturday 28 October 2006 15:47, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Bruno wrote:
> > However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if
> > yum is so far behind dpkg).
>
> Why switch off apt/dpkg if you think they are superior?  There are
> Debian based distributions which you could try first which attempt to
> address the problems you're experiencing.  Give Kubuntu and Mepis a try
> first.

Indeed I just grab a Ubuntu DVD (labelled 'Dapper-drake 6.06 LTS' which looks 
very recent).  
Ubuntu is based and so I'll probably try it as a replacement of etch.

Thanks for your attention.
Bruno


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Tim Post]

On Sat, 2006-10-28 at 15:09 +0200, Bruno wrote:

> However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if yum 
> is so far behind dpkg).
> 
> Bye,
> Bruno
> 

Fedora is an *experimental* operating system, etch is a *beta*. Neither
one should be used in any kind of production setting, production being
defined as you need all features and packages working all of the time.

However, its your laptop :) You need it to work and I'd imagine want to
be on familiar ground. 

If you want to tinker, check out www.backports.org , and sit down for an
evening to install Sarge and then pick and choose what you need. Again,
if you enjoy breaking stuff, then fixing it .. its a fun thing to do and
really gets you indoctrinated to how Debian works.

I manage over 2000 production servers scattered across a dozen countries
(about 12 clusters + some isolated farms), and I'm advising - Debian is
worth the initial hassles. Most of my servers are an Admin's worst
nightmare - shared web hosting... I insist on Debian.

Yum in and of itself is fine .. it does its job rather well, provided
the packagers do theirs :) Debian *really* puts effort into package
consistency. Fedora just releases too often to do this.. its just too
much work to try to keep up on broken packages. Its not a knock against
Fedora, more of a reality check on what you can expect.

If you really need your laptop working, give CentOS a whirl before you
go back to Fedora on anything important.

I *like* Fedora because so much of an effort is going into it and it
does break quite a bit of ground.. but realize the nature of the beast
you are working with :) Sounds like your headed out of the pot and back
into the frying pan.. 

Best,
-Tim



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Re: Why I left Debian

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 10/28/06 09:16, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2006 at 04:18:29PM +0100, steef wrote:
> 
>> etch is a *testing* distro. why not try sarge (stable) first *before* 
>> thinking of turning back to fedora?
> 
> He has modern hardware, or wants to run modern software?

Ubuntu 6.05

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

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hV323XOyqvOkExAv/CpFwtI=
=cWpQ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Carl Fink]

On Sun, Oct 29, 2006 at 04:18:29PM +0100, steef wrote:

> etch is a *testing* distro. why not try sarge (stable) first *before* 
> thinking of turning back to fedora?

He has modern hardware, or wants to run modern software?
-- 
Carl Fink   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Read my blog at nitpickingblog.blogspot.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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Re: Why I left Debian

[steef]

Bruno wrote:

Hello,

I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used Debian 
for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.


So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5 on 
it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try other 
distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do it.


Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :

- as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common that I 
was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout session' 
which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.


- recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on previous 
version because latest version continuously break apt-get repository. Only 
cost few hours of googling to find a solution.


- 'kde su root' reject root password (...which was accepted in a 'su root' in 
a console)


- flgrx / mesa / libGL often block apt-get update/upgrade seems because of a 
dependency about libGL. Difficult to install a 3D system but even more 
difficult to keep it stable that I decide to forget 3D when using etch on my 
laptop.


- others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..

Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a superb 
distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to 'Linux 
techies' ?
However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if yum 
is so far behind dpkg).


Bye,
Bruno


  

hi,

etch is a *testing* distro. why not try sarge (stable) first *before* 
thinking of turning back to fedora?


regards,

steef


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hello,

why did you not try first the current stable version of Debian ?

Cheers,
Jerome

Bruno wrote:

Hello,

I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used Debian 
for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.


So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5 on 
it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try other 
distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do it.


Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :

- as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common that I 
was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout session' 
which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.


- recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on previous 
version because latest version continuously break apt-get repository. Only 
cost few hours of googling to find a solution.


- 'kde su root' reject root password (...which was accepted in a 'su root' in 
a console)


- flgrx / mesa / libGL often block apt-get update/upgrade seems because of a 
dependency about libGL. Difficult to install a 3D system but even more 
difficult to keep it stable that I decide to forget 3D when using etch on my 
laptop.


- others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..

Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a superb 
distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to 'Linux 
techies' ?
However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if yum 
is so far behind dpkg).


Bye,
Bruno




--
Jerome BENOIT
jgmbenoit_at_mailsnare_dot_net


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Andrei Popescu]

Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used Debian 
> for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.
> 
> So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5 on 
> it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try other 
> distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do it.

Just to be sure, you do know etch is the "testing" distribution? If you
want an (almost) unbreakable system you should try sarge or try
etch again when it is released (should be in December).

Good luck,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: Why I left Debian

[Steve Lamb]

Bruno wrote:
> However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if yum 
> is so far behind dpkg).

Why switch off apt/dpkg if you think they are superior?  There are Debian
based distributions which you could try first which attempt to address the
problems you're experiencing.  Give Kubuntu and Mepis a try first.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   |   And dream I do...
---+-



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Why I left Debian

[Bruno]

Hello,

I really do not want to start any flame here but after all, as I used Debian 
for few months, I find honest to say why I'm leaving it.

So few months ago, I installed etch on my laptop (previously had Fedora-5 on 
it) just to try it and because I think is good and important to try other 
distros when you have some free partition / computer and time to do it.

Hereafter main problems encountered (some recurrent) these last months :

- as I installed etch around 50% of shutdowns never complete. So common that I 
was used to unplug battery simply to shutdown. Same for 'logout session' 
which allways freeze the laptop with a new login attempt.

- recently I had to 'pinning' apt-get (or dpkg..do not remember..) on previous 
version because latest version continuously break apt-get repository. Only 
cost few hours of googling to find a solution.

- 'kde su root' reject root password (...which was accepted in a 'su root' in 
a console)

- flgrx / mesa / libGL often block apt-get update/upgrade seems because of a 
dependency about libGL. Difficult to install a 3D system but even more 
difficult to keep it stable that I decide to forget 3D when using etch on my 
laptop.

- others..sorry only remember hours of googling to find solutions..

Once again I do not want to start any flame here : indeed Debian is a superb 
distro (packaging system is really superb) but, IMHO, dedicated to 'Linux 
techies' ?
However my conclusion is this week-end I'll move back to Fedora (even if yum 
is so far behind dpkg).

Bye,
Bruno


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