Re: drive controller Q?

[David Christensen]

On 9/15/22 10:55, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/15/22 12:43, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/15/22 05:18, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/15/22 03:04, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 20:06, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/14/22 19:50, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 11:40, gene heskett wrote:


I now have added 2 rock64's and killed one old Dell with a 
lightning strike since.


I redid the service in 2008, brought it all up to NEC specs, but the 
computer and the monitor were

plugged into two different circuits. Jury rigged, fixed now.



Were the two different circuits on the same phase, or opposite phases?

IDK, old house wiring, which is now a 240 volt ct branch of the new 200 
amp box. I rarely tear
out a wall just to see the wiring. The house is a 1969-1970 National 
prefab, and from looking at it
for 34 years now, the NEC as it existed then, wasn't well followed. The 
living room has no
overhead lighting at all, and only two wall switched outlets, both on 
outside walls.  When I decided
to use this small childs bedroom as a den for my computing, I did run 
down the circuit for one
on its inside wall sockets, and soldered everything all the way back to 
the pushmatics, then put a huge surge absorbing pluggin strip into that 
plug. And a 1500wa ups, so both holes of that duplex are loaded. Almost 
everything in this room but the overhead lights and some x10 stuff runs 
on that duplex.,


How did plugging the computer and the monitor into two different 
circuits affect the outcome of a lightning strike?


Probably on opposite phases. But thats a SWAG at best. Until that, after 
the new service in 2008, I'd not had any lightning damages despite the 
pole with my can on it being struck multiple times.



Most residential NEMA 5-15R duplex receptacles in USA are fed by one 
115~120 VAC circuit, except for the receptacle under the kitchen sink -- 
it is fed by two circuits: one for the dishwasher and one for the 
garbage disposal.



To determine if two electrical outlets are on the same phase or on 
different phases, measure the voltage between the hot terminals when the 
outlets are energized.  If the voltage is around zero, the outlets are 
on the same phase.  If the voltage is much higher, the outlets are on 
different phases.



David

Re: drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

On 9/15/22 12:43, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/15/22 05:18, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/15/22 03:04, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 20:06, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/14/22 19:50, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 11:40, gene heskett wrote:



... existing software raid10's 4 Samsung 1T's ...



228G currently used.
I currently have 1 extra 1T Samsung and an empty sata socket ...



Amanda would need 5 drives, cuz it uses a
dedicated holding disk and completes the DLE to it, before moving 
the completed DLE

to the vtape.


I now have added 2 rock64's and killed one old Dell with a 
lightning strike since.


Lightning strikes getting into residential electrical systems is 
extremely dangerous.



You are preaching to the choir. I am a Certified Electronics Technician.


4 @ 1 TB HDD RAID10 seems like overkill for 228 GB of backup data.

I'm just getting re-started. Before the seagate experiment killed 
everything, my typical

nightly backup was over 40 Gigs on a 14 day dumpcycle.


... I would buy three mobile racks:

https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/drw150satbk

I already have a 4 bay version of that, half full of SSD's now at 2 
per 3.5" bay.



Okay.  2 @ 1 TB RAID1 in the server and individual 1 TB drives for 
off-site would work for 560 GB.



I put my bare drives in these cases:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018VKBYWI


I redid the service in 2008, brought it all up to NEC specs, but the 
computer and the monitor were

plugged into two different circuits. Jury rigged, fixed now.



Were the two different circuits on the same phase, or opposite phases?

IDK, old house wiring, which is now a 240 volt ct branch of the new 200 
amp box. I rarely tear
out a wall just to see the wiring. The house is a 1969-1970 National 
prefab, and from looking at it
for 34 years now, the NEC as it existed then, wasn't well followed. The 
living room has no
overhead lighting at all, and only two wall switched outlets, both on 
outside walls.  When I decided
to use this small childs bedroom as a den for my computing, I did run 
down the circuit for one
on its inside wall sockets, and soldered everything all the way back to 
the pushmatics, then put a huge surge absorbing pluggin strip into that 
plug. And a 1500wa ups, so both holes of that duplex are loaded. Almost 
everything in this room but the overhead lights and some x10 stuff runs 
on that duplex.,


How did plugging the computer and the monitor into two different 
circuits affect the outcome of a lightning strike?


Probably on opposite phases. But thats a SWAG at best. Until that, after 
the new service in 2008, I'd not had any lightning damages despite the 
pole with my can on it being struck multiple times. I use wireless 
keyboards and mice as I did once years ago take it in the fingers and 
lost a keyboard with wired stuff. Theory is that if my can gets hit, and 
the whole room bounces half a million volts, its all bouncing in unison 
and as long as it doesn't
jump an air gap, its all fine.  Before 2008 and back in telco wiring, I 
lost a modem everytime we had a heavy
dew. But I sent a gooby to vz & their 75 yo cable they couldn't make 
work a decade back in favor of the local cable for phone and net. Almost 
zero problems since, lost the phone for 2 days in the aftermath of a direcho
that did $18,000 in damages. For a while after that, I had the only tree 
that survived in the path of that
direcho. 4, 45 foot pines in my front yard didn't but that pin oak did. 
That was in 2010.


David

.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: drive controller Q?

[David Christensen]

On 9/15/22 05:18, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/15/22 03:04, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 20:06, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/14/22 19:50, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 11:40, gene heskett wrote:



... existing software raid10's 4 Samsung 1T's ...



228G currently used.
I currently have 1 extra 1T Samsung and an empty sata socket ...



Amanda would need 5 drives, cuz it uses a
dedicated holding disk and completes the DLE to it, before moving the 
completed DLE

to the vtape.


I now have added 2 rock64's and killed one old Dell with 
a lightning strike since.


Lightning strikes getting into residential electrical systems is 
extremely dangerous.



You are preaching to the choir. I am a Certified Electronics Technician.


4 @ 1 TB HDD RAID10 seems like overkill for 228 GB of backup data.

I'm just getting re-started. Before the seagate experiment killed 
everything, my typical

nightly backup was over 40 Gigs on a 14 day dumpcycle.


... I would buy three mobile racks:

https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/drw150satbk

I already have a 4 bay version of that, half full of SSD's now at 2 per 
3.5" bay.



Okay.  2 @ 1 TB RAID1 in the server and individual 1 TB drives for 
off-site would work for 560 GB.



I put my bare drives in these cases:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018VKBYWI


I redid the service in 2008, brought it all up to NEC specs, but the 
computer and the monitor were

plugged into two different circuits. Jury rigged, fixed now.



Were the two different circuits on the same phase, or opposite phases?


How did plugging the computer and the monitor into two different 
circuits affect the outcome of a lightning strike?



David

Re: drive controller Q?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 11:50:35AM +0100, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> > > On 9/14/22 14:55, Dan Ritter wrote:  
> > (This is definitely the case for mdadm and ZFS, probably less so
> > for btrfs, and possibly not at all true for LVM.)
> 
> As long as LVM is over mdadm it doesn't matter. Can't speak for btrfs.

LVM will look for its PVs on every kind of block device, including
network ones, even including floppy disks, unless configured not to.
Those block devices don't need to be MD ones.

The same is true for btrfs, it's whatever udev sees as a new block
device.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: drive controller Q?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 04:38:35PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 9/14/22 16:03, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > The glory of software RAID over SATA3 is that they don't have to
> > be on the same controller at all. All the clever systems put
> > identifiers on each of the participating drives and you can
> > assemble the RAID without necessarily knowing where all the
> > parts are -- they will be found.
> Great. Good news. So all I really need are the drives.
> > (This is definitely the case for mdadm and ZFS, probably less so
> > for btrfs, and possibly not at all true for LVM.)
> I knew there was a reason I've never used LVM. But I didn't know it till
> now.

You still do not know it - LVM will look for its PVs on any
available block device, unless it has been told not to scan
particular patterns of block device name. It's conceptually not any
different to MD in this regard.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

On 9/15/22 06:53, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:

gene heskett wrote:

On 9/14/22 14:55, Dan Ritter wrote:

gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software
raid10's 4 Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a
separate 4T raid-10 for amanda?

Without any data loss if possible?

I don't have any experience with this one. I don't know what
SATA chipset it is using, but there aren't many that the kernel
doesn't already support.

That said, it is a straight SATA3 board, not a RAID board, so
there will be no difficulty in moving mdadm, btrfs or zfs RAIDs
over to it.

I would point out that you can't actually fit 16 x 3Gb/s worth
of bandwidth over one PCIe lane; if this is v1 PCIe, you have a
total of 250MB/s available. That's probably fine for four
spinning disks doing backup duty.

Here's a 4-port model with named PCIe v2 support and a
recognizable SATA chipset, for slightly less money:

https://www.newegg.com/syba-si-pex40064-sata-iii/p/N82E16816124064?Item=N82E16816124064

-dsr-
.

I looked at that one too, Dan, but I've filled up the back panel
with usb breakouts and it will
take a major re-arrangement to clear a pic-e slot. This mobo only
has two, and another drive
controller like this 4 port is already in the other slot.  Not
saying it can't be done, but
will be a pita to do. There is also a 6 port onboard controller
that I might be able to use
for the 2nd raid. With a boot drive, and a buffer drive for amanda,
and 4 2T's on it that would
fill it up. I've got a usb3 optical drive that burns a dvd now and
then so I can do away with the
sata drive if push comes to shove. Or the accessory card for
the /home raid-10 is a 6 port with
2 empty sockets.

Can I make a 2nd raid 10 from two separate controllers? 2 drives on
the mobo controller and 2 on the
plugin controller? I'd think that could lead to mix-n-match
problems given udevs penchant for
shuffling drives.

Too many options..

The glory of software RAID over SATA3 is that they don't have to
be on the same controller at all. All the clever systems put
identifiers on each of the participating drives and you can
assemble the RAID without necessarily knowing where all the
parts are -- they will be found.

One thing to watch out for is the time when you do need to know exactly
where the parts are. Namely when a drive fails. Some upmarket drive
cages have an LED that can be turned on so the software can indicate
'this is the drive I just told you about - please replace this one'.
Without that LED, it is sometimes difficult to be sure you've correctly
identified the piece of hardware that the software says has failed.
Don't ask me how I know :(


Been there, done that, pain in the a$$

(This is definitely the case for mdadm and ZFS, probably less so
for btrfs, and possibly not at all true for LVM.)

As long as LVM is over mdadm it doesn't matter. Can't speak for btrfs.
I still don't entirely trust LVM. Stuff does get fixed eventually, but I 
got tired of
being an unpaid lab rat for RedHat and broke out of the fedora camp 
almost 2
decades ago. I wanted something that worked. Fedora /always/ had a boil 
that needed
medical attention.  Used ubuntu for about 3 versions, but linuxcnc went 
to a debian

base just before wheezy, and is still there.

So between OpenSCAD, Cura, LinuxCNC, a garage & shed full of cnc metal 
carving
machines, and a couple 3d printers, my creativity, such as it is as I 
look at my 88th,

has an outlet.

This morning I've a big grin, I've been working on making a BIG vise 
screw for a

woodworkers workbench, and took a stick of hard maple off one of my milling
machines that will be still working 100 years from now.

Carved with code I wrote.

Threaded with a 2 start, 6mm buttress thread, for a 12mm pitch, no 
measurable taper
in 20" of it.  Antique, 100+ yo worn out junk like it sells for $200 on 
fleabay. This one
I'll offer for 3x that as it far more complete, but the woodworker/buyer 
will will it to

one of his great grandchildren when he is done with it,

That's the intention, we'll see if it sells.

The nice thing about cnc is that once the code is fine tuned, unlimited 
copies can be

made if the machine has a big enough work envelope.

Unforch, its not fast as it takes around 2 days to carve the screw, and 
around 2 weeks to
make the rest of the kit on a couple 3d printers. Per sellible piece. 
Will it sell? DIIK. But I'll

find out.

Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

On 9/15/22 03:04, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 20:06, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/14/22 19:50, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 11:40, gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software 
raid10's 4 Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 
4T raid-10 for amanda?


Backup the contents of the 4 @ 1 TB RAID before making any changes; 
just in case.


Unforch, until I get another raid-10 going, I have nothing big enough 
to back it up to.

228G currently used.
I currently have 1 extra 1T Samsung and an empty sata socket though.



Please confirm that you are using Linux md for software RAID.

yes.


As others have mentioned, a PCIe 2.0 1x connection (500 MB/s) may 
become a bottleneck for intensive RAID operations, such as copying 
the 4 @ 1 TB RAID10 to the 4 @ 2 TB RAID10, scrubbing a RAID, 
replacing/ resilvering RAID drives, etc..  I expect Amanda will be 
limited by HDD seek time and/or Gigabit Ethernet, not by PCIe 2.0 1x 
bandwidth.


That would probably bother me eventually. Amanda would need 5 drives, 
cuz it uses a
dedicated holding disk and completes the DLE to it, before moving the 
completed DLE
to the vtape. A decided advantage in terms of preventing a real tape 
from being shoe
shined to death, but relatively unimportant in this case. I had 
amanda backing up my
whole local network until those two seagates puked and choked to 
death on it. But with
3d printers, I now have added 2 rock64's and killed one old Dell with 
a lightning strike since.


That disk can co-exist on the mobo's ports.  And has, its still there 
in fact. Unmounted, sdb.

Shows up in a blkid scan.

Let me acquire the drives and we can continue this later.

Thanks David

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Lightning strikes getting into residential electrical systems is 
extremely dangerous.  I suggest that you address that first -- upgrade 
to a grounded electrical system if you have an ungrounded electrical 
system, install lightning arresters, etc., at the electrical service 
entrance, use surge suppressors between electrical receptacles and 
equipment, etc..  Most importantly -- stay away from electrical 
equipment during a lightning storm; watch for fires!



You are preaching to the choir. I am a Certified Electronics Technician.


4 @ 1 TB HDD RAID10 seems like overkill for 228 GB of backup data.

I'm just getting re-started. Before the seagate experiment killed 
everything, my typical

nightly backup was over 40 Gigs on a 14 day dumpcycle.


Rather than buying four 2 TB HDD's, I would buy three mobile racks:

https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/drw150satbk

I already have a 4 bay version of that, half full of SSD's now at 2 per 
3.5" bay.


Install the extra 1 TB HDD into the first mobile rack tray and install 
the bay in the server.  Now it is easy to backup (or restore) Amanda, 
or whatever.



I would then convert the 4 @ 1 TB HDD RAID10 into a 2 @ 1 TB HDD 
RAID1, and put the other two 1 TB HDD's into mobile rack trays. Now 
you can have three backups of your backups in rotation.  This will 
provide good protection against crashed drives, lightning, etc..
I redid the service in 2008, brought it all up to NEC specs, but the 
computer and the monitor were

plugged into two different circuits. Jury rigged, fixed now.



David

.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: drive controller Q?

[debian-user]

> gene heskett wrote: 
> > On 9/14/22 14:55, Dan Ritter wrote:  
> > > gene heskett wrote:  
> > > > Greetings all;
> > > > 
> > > > Does anyone have experience with this controller card?
> > > > 
> > > > https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880
> > > > 
> > > > Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software
> > > > raid10's 4 Samsung 1T's to it,
> > > > and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a
> > > > separate 4T raid-10 for amanda?
> > > > 
> > > > Without any data loss if possible?  
> > > I don't have any experience with this one. I don't know what
> > > SATA chipset it is using, but there aren't many that the kernel
> > > doesn't already support.
> > > 
> > > That said, it is a straight SATA3 board, not a RAID board, so
> > > there will be no difficulty in moving mdadm, btrfs or zfs RAIDs
> > > over to it.
> > > 
> > > I would point out that you can't actually fit 16 x 3Gb/s worth
> > > of bandwidth over one PCIe lane; if this is v1 PCIe, you have a
> > > total of 250MB/s available. That's probably fine for four
> > > spinning disks doing backup duty.
> > > 
> > > Here's a 4-port model with named PCIe v2 support and a
> > > recognizable SATA chipset, for slightly less money:
> > > 
> > > https://www.newegg.com/syba-si-pex40064-sata-iii/p/N82E16816124064?Item=N82E16816124064
> > > 
> > > -dsr-
> > > .  
> > I looked at that one too, Dan, but I've filled up the back panel
> > with usb breakouts and it will
> > take a major re-arrangement to clear a pic-e slot. This mobo only
> > has two, and another drive
> > controller like this 4 port is already in the other slot.  Not
> > saying it can't be done, but
> > will be a pita to do. There is also a 6 port onboard controller
> > that I might be able to use
> > for the 2nd raid. With a boot drive, and a buffer drive for amanda,
> > and 4 2T's on it that would
> > fill it up. I've got a usb3 optical drive that burns a dvd now and
> > then so I can do away with the
> > sata drive if push comes to shove. Or the accessory card for
> > the /home raid-10 is a 6 port with
> > 2 empty sockets.
> > 
> > Can I make a 2nd raid 10 from two separate controllers? 2 drives on
> > the mobo controller and 2 on the
> > plugin controller? I'd think that could lead to mix-n-match
> > problems given udevs penchant for
> > shuffling drives.
> > 
> > Too many options..  
> 
> The glory of software RAID over SATA3 is that they don't have to
> be on the same controller at all. All the clever systems put
> identifiers on each of the participating drives and you can
> assemble the RAID without necessarily knowing where all the
> parts are -- they will be found.

One thing to watch out for is the time when you do need to know exactly
where the parts are. Namely when a drive fails. Some upmarket drive
cages have an LED that can be turned on so the software can indicate
'this is the drive I just told you about - please replace this one'.
Without that LED, it is sometimes difficult to be sure you've correctly
identified the piece of hardware that the software says has failed.
Don't ask me how I know :(

> (This is definitely the case for mdadm and ZFS, probably less so
> for btrfs, and possibly not at all true for LVM.)

As long as LVM is over mdadm it doesn't matter. Can't speak for btrfs.

> -dsr-

Re: drive controller Q?

[David Christensen]

On 9/14/22 20:06, gene heskett wrote:

On 9/14/22 19:50, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 11:40, gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software 
raid10's 4 Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 
4T raid-10 for amanda?


Backup the contents of the 4 @ 1 TB RAID before making any changes; 
just in case.


Unforch, until I get another raid-10 going, I have nothing big enough to 
back it up to.

228G currently used.
I currently have 1 extra 1T Samsung and an empty sata socket though.



Please confirm that you are using Linux md for software RAID.

yes.


As others have mentioned, a PCIe 2.0 1x connection (500 MB/s) may 
become a bottleneck for intensive RAID operations, such as copying the 
4 @ 1 TB RAID10 to the 4 @ 2 TB RAID10, scrubbing a RAID, replacing/ 
resilvering RAID drives, etc..  I expect Amanda will be limited by HDD 
seek time and/or Gigabit Ethernet, not by PCIe 2.0 1x bandwidth.


That would probably bother me eventually. Amanda would need 5 drives, 
cuz it uses a
dedicated holding disk and completes the DLE to it, before moving the 
completed DLE
to the vtape. A decided advantage in terms of preventing a real tape 
from being shoe
shined to death, but relatively unimportant in this case. I had amanda 
backing up my
whole local network until those two seagates puked and choked to death 
on it. But with
3d printers, I now have added 2 rock64's and killed one old Dell with a 
lightning strike since.


That disk can co-exist on the mobo's ports.  And has, its still there in 
fact. Unmounted, sdb.

Shows up in a blkid scan.

Let me acquire the drives and we can continue this later.

Thanks David

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Lightning strikes getting into residential electrical systems is 
extremely dangerous.  I suggest that you address that first --  upgrade 
to a grounded electrical system if you have an ungrounded electrical 
system, install lightning arresters, etc., at the electrical service 
entrance, use surge suppressors between electrical receptacles and 
equipment, etc..  Most importantly -- stay away from electrical 
equipment during a lightning storm; watch for fires!



4 @ 1 TB HDD RAID10 seems like overkill for 228 GB of backup data.


Rather than buying four 2 TB HDD's, I would buy three mobile racks:

https://www.startech.com/en-us/hdd/drw150satbk


Install the extra 1 TB HDD into the first mobile rack tray and install 
the bay in the server.  Now it is easy to backup (or restore) Amanda, or 
whatever.



I would then convert the 4 @ 1 TB HDD RAID10 into a 2 @ 1 TB HDD RAID1, 
and put the other two 1 TB HDD's into mobile rack trays.  Now you can 
have three backups of your backups in rotation.  This will provide good 
protection against crashed drives, lightning, etc..



David

Re: drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

On 9/14/22 19:50, David Christensen wrote:

On 9/14/22 11:40, gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software 
raid10's 4 Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 
4T raid-10 for amanda?


Without any data loss if possible?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Backup the contents of the 4 @ 1 TB RAID before making any changes; 
just in case.


Unforch, until I get another raid-10 going, I have nothing big enough to 
back it up to.

228G currently used.
I currently have 1 extra 1T Samsung and an empty sata socket though.


What are the makes and model numbers of your computer, motherboard, 
chassis(es), drive rack(s), and disk drives?



That list would exceed the listservers limits. Asus high end mobo, 32G dram


Please confirm that you are using Linux md for software RAID.

yes.




What other expansion cards will be connected to the computer at the 
same time as the new HBA?



What other drives will be connected to the new HBA?


AIUI Linux md(4)/ mdadm(8) marks block devices when they are added 
into an array, and is able to find them if and when the device node 
changes.  So, shutting down, moving the 4 @ 1 TB drives to the new 
HBA, and booting should "just work".



As others have mentioned, a PCIe 2.0 1x connection (500 MB/s) may 
become a bottleneck for intensive RAID operations, such as copying the 
4 @ 1 TB RAID10 to the 4 @ 2 TB RAID10, scrubbing a RAID, replacing/ 
resilvering RAID drives, etc..  I expect Amanda will be limited by HDD 
seek time and/or Gigabit Ethernet, not by PCIe 2.0 1x bandwidth.


That would probably bother me eventually. Amanda would need 5 drives, 
cuz it uses a
dedicated holding disk and completes the DLE to it, before moving the 
completed DLE
to the vtape. A decided advantage in terms of preventing a real tape 
from being shoe
shined to death, but relatively unimportant in this case. I had amanda 
backing up my
whole local network until those two seagates puked and choked to death 
on it. But with
3d printers, I now have added 2 rock64's and killed one old Dell with a 
lightning strike since.


That disk can co-exist on the mobo's ports.  And has, its still there in 
fact. Unmounted, sdb.

Shows up in a blkid scan.

Let me acquire the drives and we can continue this later.

Thanks David

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: drive controller Q?

[David Christensen]

On 9/14/22 11:40, gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software raid10's 4 
Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 4T 
raid-10 for amanda?


Without any data loss if possible?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.



Backup the contents of the 4 @ 1 TB RAID before making any changes; just 
in case.



What are the makes and model numbers of your computer, motherboard, 
chassis(es), drive rack(s), and disk drives?



Please confirm that you are using Linux md for software RAID.


What other expansion cards will be connected to the computer at the same 
time as the new HBA?



What other drives will be connected to the new HBA?


AIUI Linux md(4)/ mdadm(8) marks block devices when they are added into 
an array, and is able to find them if and when the device node changes. 
 So, shutting down, moving the 4 @ 1 TB drives to the new HBA, and 
booting should "just work".



As others have mentioned, a PCIe 2.0 1x connection (500 MB/s) may become 
a bottleneck for intensive RAID operations, such as copying the 4 @ 1 TB 
RAID10 to the 4 @ 2 TB RAID10, scrubbing a RAID, replacing/ resilvering 
RAID drives, etc..  I expect Amanda will be limited by HDD seek time 
and/or Gigabit Ethernet, not by PCIe 2.0 1x bandwidth.



David

Re: drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

On 9/14/22 16:03, Dan Ritter wrote:

gene heskett wrote:

On 9/14/22 14:55, Dan Ritter wrote:

gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software raid10's 4
Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 4T
raid-10 for amanda?

Without any data loss if possible?

I don't have any experience with this one. I don't know what
SATA chipset it is using, but there aren't many that the kernel
doesn't already support.

That said, it is a straight SATA3 board, not a RAID board, so
there will be no difficulty in moving mdadm, btrfs or zfs RAIDs
over to it.

I would point out that you can't actually fit 16 x 3Gb/s worth
of bandwidth over one PCIe lane; if this is v1 PCIe, you have a
total of 250MB/s available. That's probably fine for four
spinning disks doing backup duty.

Here's a 4-port model with named PCIe v2 support and a
recognizable SATA chipset, for slightly less money:

https://www.newegg.com/syba-si-pex40064-sata-iii/p/N82E16816124064?Item=N82E16816124064

-dsr-
.

I looked at that one too, Dan, but I've filled up the back panel with usb
breakouts and it will
take a major re-arrangement to clear a pic-e slot. This mobo only has two,
and another drive
controller like this 4 port is already in the other slot.  Not saying it
can't be done, but
will be a pita to do. There is also a 6 port onboard controller that I might
be able to use
for the 2nd raid. With a boot drive, and a buffer drive for amanda, and 4
2T's on it that would
fill it up. I've got a usb3 optical drive that burns a dvd now and then so I
can do away with the
sata drive if push comes to shove. Or the accessory card for the /home
raid-10 is a 6 port with
2 empty sockets.

Can I make a 2nd raid 10 from two separate controllers? 2 drives on the mobo
controller and 2 on the
plugin controller? I'd think that could lead to mix-n-match problems given
udevs penchant for
shuffling drives.

Too many options..

The glory of software RAID over SATA3 is that they don't have to
be on the same controller at all. All the clever systems put
identifiers on each of the participating drives and you can
assemble the RAID without necessarily knowing where all the
parts are -- they will be found.

Great. Good news. So all I really need are the drives.

(This is definitely the case for mdadm and ZFS, probably less so
for btrfs, and possibly not at all true for LVM.)
I knew there was a reason I've never used LVM. But I didn't know it till 
now.
 Seems like I can faintly recall a fedora install going south in a day 
or so, wy back
then before I decided I wasn't cut out to be a red hat lab rat. Wasn't 
healthy at all.


Thanks Dan

-dsr-

.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

On 9/14/22 15:23, Charles Curley wrote:

On Wed, 14 Sep 2022 14:40:10 -0400
gene heskett  wrote:


Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Gene, I don't know why you think you need 16 SATA ports. Also, this
card ships from China, and 3 to 31 days shipping may be optimistic.

I can tell you I have done very well with this two port card and the
four SATA ports already on board my motherboard.
https://www.newegg.com/syba-model-si-pex40148-pci-express-to-sata-card/p/14G-009S-00017?Item=14G-009S-00017
Or you may prefer the four port version.

I also recommend you use the software RAID built in to the Linux kernel.
Hardware RAID tends to be proprietary, which means you are stuck with
that line of card should your card die on you. And Murphy help you
getting updates if it's buggy.
There's echo in here Charles. Proprietary is the last thing I need. A 
lesson I learned the
hard way back in scsi days. We had idiots with an EE trying to design 
those who didn't
have transmission lines in their vocabulary, wouldn't know what they 
were looking at

on the o'scope if I showed them.

Software raid is working fine here. Despite udev playing 52 pickup 
discovering drives,

md manages to sort them out and assemble a raid 10 at boot time. Every time.

Thanks.





Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: drive controller Q?

[Dan Ritter]

gene heskett wrote: 
> On 9/14/22 14:55, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > gene heskett wrote:
> > > Greetings all;
> > > 
> > > Does anyone have experience with this controller card?
> > > 
> > > https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880
> > > 
> > > Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software raid10's 4
> > > Samsung 1T's to it,
> > > and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 4T
> > > raid-10 for amanda?
> > > 
> > > Without any data loss if possible?
> > I don't have any experience with this one. I don't know what
> > SATA chipset it is using, but there aren't many that the kernel
> > doesn't already support.
> > 
> > That said, it is a straight SATA3 board, not a RAID board, so
> > there will be no difficulty in moving mdadm, btrfs or zfs RAIDs
> > over to it.
> > 
> > I would point out that you can't actually fit 16 x 3Gb/s worth
> > of bandwidth over one PCIe lane; if this is v1 PCIe, you have a
> > total of 250MB/s available. That's probably fine for four
> > spinning disks doing backup duty.
> > 
> > Here's a 4-port model with named PCIe v2 support and a
> > recognizable SATA chipset, for slightly less money:
> > 
> > https://www.newegg.com/syba-si-pex40064-sata-iii/p/N82E16816124064?Item=N82E16816124064
> > 
> > -dsr-
> > .
> I looked at that one too, Dan, but I've filled up the back panel with usb
> breakouts and it will
> take a major re-arrangement to clear a pic-e slot. This mobo only has two,
> and another drive
> controller like this 4 port is already in the other slot.  Not saying it
> can't be done, but
> will be a pita to do. There is also a 6 port onboard controller that I might
> be able to use
> for the 2nd raid. With a boot drive, and a buffer drive for amanda, and 4
> 2T's on it that would
> fill it up. I've got a usb3 optical drive that burns a dvd now and then so I
> can do away with the
> sata drive if push comes to shove. Or the accessory card for the /home
> raid-10 is a 6 port with
> 2 empty sockets.
> 
> Can I make a 2nd raid 10 from two separate controllers? 2 drives on the mobo
> controller and 2 on the
> plugin controller? I'd think that could lead to mix-n-match problems given
> udevs penchant for
> shuffling drives.
> 
> Too many options..

The glory of software RAID over SATA3 is that they don't have to
be on the same controller at all. All the clever systems put
identifiers on each of the participating drives and you can
assemble the RAID without necessarily knowing where all the
parts are -- they will be found.

(This is definitely the case for mdadm and ZFS, probably less so
for btrfs, and possibly not at all true for LVM.)

-dsr-

Re: drive controller Q?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 03:43:16PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 9/14/22 14:55, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > gene heskett wrote:
> > > Greetings all;
> > > 
> > > Does anyone have experience with this controller card?
> > > 
> > > https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880
> > > 
> > > Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software raid10's 4
> > > Samsung 1T's to it,
> > > and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 4T
> > > raid-10 for amanda?
> > > 

If your existing software raid is mdadm, quite good. YOu're pinning quite a
lot on one card though - as mentioned, you may suffer bandwidth poverty :)

> > > Without any data loss if possible?
> > I don't have any experience with this one. I don't know what
> > SATA chipset it is using, but there aren't many that the kernel
> > doesn't already support.
> > 
> > That said, it is a straight SATA3 board, not a RAID board, so
> > there will be no difficulty in moving mdadm, btrfs or zfs RAIDs
> > over to it.
> > 
> > I would point out that you can't actually fit 16 x 3Gb/s worth
> > of bandwidth over one PCIe lane; if this is v1 PCIe, you have a
> > total of 250MB/s available. That's probably fine for four
> > spinning disks doing backup duty.
> > 
> > Here's a 4-port model with named PCIe v2 support and a
> > recognizable SATA chipset, for slightly less money:
> > 
> > https://www.newegg.com/syba-si-pex40064-sata-iii/p/N82E16816124064?Item=N82E16816124064
> > 
> 
> Can I make a 2nd raid 10 from two separate controllers? 2 drives on the mobo
> controller and 2 on the
> plugin controller? I'd think that could lead to mix-n-match problems given
> udevs penchant for
> shuffling drives.
> 

mdadm should use internal blkid and shouldn't care if you shuffle drives.
Mixing and matching two controllers almost certainly won't work for other
reasons: there's a reason that add in cards are usually intended to 
support one set of RAID.

> Too many options..
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> -- 
>

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater 

Re: drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

On 9/14/22 14:55, Dan Ritter wrote:

gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software raid10's 4
Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 4T
raid-10 for amanda?

Without any data loss if possible?

I don't have any experience with this one. I don't know what
SATA chipset it is using, but there aren't many that the kernel
doesn't already support.

That said, it is a straight SATA3 board, not a RAID board, so
there will be no difficulty in moving mdadm, btrfs or zfs RAIDs
over to it.

I would point out that you can't actually fit 16 x 3Gb/s worth
of bandwidth over one PCIe lane; if this is v1 PCIe, you have a
total of 250MB/s available. That's probably fine for four
spinning disks doing backup duty.

Here's a 4-port model with named PCIe v2 support and a
recognizable SATA chipset, for slightly less money:

https://www.newegg.com/syba-si-pex40064-sata-iii/p/N82E16816124064?Item=N82E16816124064

-dsr-
.
I looked at that one too, Dan, but I've filled up the back panel with 
usb breakouts and it will
take a major re-arrangement to clear a pic-e slot. This mobo only has 
two, and another drive
controller like this 4 port is already in the other slot.  Not saying it 
can't be done, but
will be a pita to do. There is also a 6 port onboard controller that I 
might be able to use
for the 2nd raid. With a boot drive, and a buffer drive for amanda, and 
4 2T's on it that would
fill it up. I've got a usb3 optical drive that burns a dvd now and then 
so I can do away with the
sata drive if push comes to shove. Or the accessory card for the /home 
raid-10 is a 6 port with

2 empty sockets.

Can I make a 2nd raid 10 from two separate controllers? 2 drives on the 
mobo controller and 2 on the
plugin controller? I'd think that could lead to mix-n-match problems 
given udevs penchant for

shuffling drives.

Too many options..

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: drive controller Q?

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2022 14:40:10 -0400
gene heskett  wrote:

> Does anyone have experience with this controller card?
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Gene, I don't know why you think you need 16 SATA ports. Also, this
card ships from China, and 3 to 31 days shipping may be optimistic.

I can tell you I have done very well with this two port card and the
four SATA ports already on board my motherboard.
https://www.newegg.com/syba-model-si-pex40148-pci-express-to-sata-card/p/14G-009S-00017?Item=14G-009S-00017
Or you may prefer the four port version.

I also recommend you use the software RAID built in to the Linux kernel.
Hardware RAID tends to be proprietary, which means you are stuck with
that line of card should your card die on you. And Murphy help you
getting updates if it's buggy.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: drive controller Q?

[Dan Ritter]

gene heskett wrote: 
> Greetings all;
> 
> Does anyone have experience with this controller card?
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880
> 
> Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software raid10's 4
> Samsung 1T's to it,
> and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 4T
> raid-10 for amanda?
> 
> Without any data loss if possible?

I don't have any experience with this one. I don't know what
SATA chipset it is using, but there aren't many that the kernel
doesn't already support.

That said, it is a straight SATA3 board, not a RAID board, so
there will be no difficulty in moving mdadm, btrfs or zfs RAIDs
over to it.

I would point out that you can't actually fit 16 x 3Gb/s worth
of bandwidth over one PCIe lane; if this is v1 PCIe, you have a
total of 250MB/s available. That's probably fine for four
spinning disks doing backup duty.

Here's a 4-port model with named PCIe v2 support and a
recognizable SATA chipset, for slightly less money:

https://www.newegg.com/syba-si-pex40064-sata-iii/p/N82E16816124064?Item=N82E16816124064

-dsr-

drive controller Q?

[gene heskett]

Greetings all;

Does anyone have experience with this controller card?

https://www.newegg.com/p/14G-04YB-3?Item=9SIB2XHHUE3880

Specifically, whats my chances of moving an existing software raid10's 4 
Samsung 1T's to it,
and then attaching 4 more 2T drives to it too, to create a separate 4T 
raid-10 for amanda?


Without any data loss if possible?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page