Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 11:43:28AM +1200, Richard Hector wrote:
> On 28/07/21 7:55 am, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > https://bugs.debian.org/991578
> 
> Nice.
> 
> I looked at the patch, but I'm not familiar with what processing gets done
> on that code.
> 
> Does your reference to the reference manual, in the last  of the diff,
> get expanded to tell me where to find the reference manual? Is that
> feasible?

I'm not really fluent in docbook, so I can't say what's possible or
impossible.  The sentence that refers to the "reference guide" is
already in the current aptitude(8) man page.  All I did was move it.

Looking at it again, it's curious that this one sentence says "reference
guide" when all the others say "reference manual".  But again, I didn't
write this sentence; it was already there.

Putting "aptitude reference manual" into Google gives me
 which is
self-titled "Chapter 2. aptitude reference guide".  So maybe the one
that says "reference guide" is the correct one, and it's all the rest
that are wrong.

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Richard Hector]

On 28/07/21 7:55 am, Greg Wooledge wrote:

https://bugs.debian.org/991578


Nice.

I looked at the patch, but I'm not familiar with what processing gets 
done on that code.


Does your reference to the reference manual, in the last  of the 
diff, get expanded to tell me where to find the reference manual? Is 
that feasible?


Cheers,
Richard

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[tomas]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 03:55:27PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> https://bugs.debian.org/991578

Wow. Thanks for making Debian better :-)

Cheers
 - t


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Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 07:28:30AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2021-07-27 at 07:25, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > I would suggest taking the paragraph that describes what the letters
> > mean, which is currently under the "search" subcommand, and doing two
> > things to it:
> > 
> > 1) Reformat it as a table.
> > 2) Move it to a separate section, and drop a sentence in the "search"
> >subcommand pointing to it.
> > 
> > Then, add that same sentence to the "why" subcommand, and to any other
> > subcommands that have the same single-letter output indicators.
> 
> Sounds worth a wishlist bug report, to me (against whatever package it
> is that contains the file which includes the text in question).
> 
> If you can come up with a patch that implements this, that would make it
> *far* more likely that the requested change would get implemented.

https://bugs.debian.org/991578

At this point, I am firmly convinced that docbook's table generation
(at least as used by aptitude) is broken beyond repair.  There is no
combination of width='...' and colwidth='...' which generates acceptable
output.  I am also convinced that everyone else who uses docbook already
knows this, and does not try to use it to generate tables, and this is
why there are no real life examples of docbook man pages with tables
for Google to give me.

So, I gave up and made each table a "variable list" instead.

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[The Wanderer]

On 2021-07-27 at 07:25, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 03:38:31PM +1200, Richard Hector wrote:

>> But experience suggests that A means 'automatically installed' (and p stands
>> for purged, which linguistically doesn't really mean 'maybe has been purged;
>> maybe has never been installed').
> 
> See, it's *not just me*!  Nobody else can find the section that says
> what the letters mean either.  Well, OK, not "nobody", but damned few
> people know about it.
> 
> I know that "search" comes alphabetically before "why", but the most
> common use of aptitude by people who only use it for one thing is
> "aptitude why".  So, when there is *nothing* at all in the "why"
> section that documents what the letters mean, most people will simply
> assume it's not anywhere in the man page.
> 
> I would suggest taking the paragraph that describes what the letters
> mean, which is currently under the "search" subcommand, and doing two
> things to it:
> 
> 1) Reformat it as a table.
> 2) Move it to a separate section, and drop a sentence in the "search"
>subcommand pointing to it.
> 
> Then, add that same sentence to the "why" subcommand, and to any other
> subcommands that have the same single-letter output indicators.

Sounds worth a wishlist bug report, to me (against whatever package it
is that contains the file which includes the text in question).

If you can come up with a patch that implements this, that would make it
*far* more likely that the requested change would get implemented.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 03:38:31PM +1200, Richard Hector wrote:
> My main issue with aptitude documentation is that most of it isn't in the
> manpage, but in the 'aptitude reference manual' which is referred to without
> a link. The path given in the SEE ALSO section might be that, but it doesn't
> say so.

Agreed.  But it's a tricky line to walk, when you have a *lot* of
documentation.  It's reasonable to avoid writing bash(1)-sized man
pages, and to put the less-often-needed details in an external
reference.

However, I think the aptitude(8) man page has some room for improvement.

> But experience suggests that A means 'automatically installed' (and p stands
> for purged, which linguistically doesn't really mean 'maybe has been purged;
> maybe has never been installed').

See, it's *not just me*!  Nobody else can find the section that says
what the letters mean either.  Well, OK, not "nobody", but damned few
people know about it.

I know that "search" comes alphabetically before "why", but the most
common use of aptitude by people who only use it for one thing is
"aptitude why".  So, when there is *nothing* at all in the "why"
section that documents what the letters mean, most people will simply
assume it's not anywhere in the man page.

I would suggest taking the paragraph that describes what the letters
mean, which is currently under the "search" subcommand, and doing two
things to it:

1) Reformat it as a table.
2) Move it to a separate section, and drop a sentence in the "search"
   subcommand pointing to it.

Then, add that same sentence to the "why" subcommand, and to any other
subcommands that have the same single-letter output indicators.

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Richard Hector]

On 27/07/21 5:22 am, Greg Wooledge wrote:

P.S. If we're complaining about the lack of documentation for the cryptic
output of the Debian tool set, can we say some words about aptitude?
Seriously.

This command searches for packages that require or conflict with
the given package. It displays a sequence of dependencies leading
to the target package, along with a note indicating the installed
state of each package in the dependency chain:

$ aptitude why kdepim
i   nautilus-data Recommends nautilus
i A nautilus  Recommends desktop-base (>= 0.2)
i A desktop-base  Suggests   gnome | kde | xfce4 | wmaker
p   kde   Dependskdepim (>= 4:3.4.3)

What do *any* of those column-ish letters mean?  I can guess "i", maybe,
but not "A" or "p".  (I might have guessed "purged" for "p", but that
doesn't seem to fit the picture being painted by the example, which is
of a system that *does* have KDE installed.  In any case, why should I
have to guess these things?)


My main issue with aptitude documentation is that most of it isn't in 
the manpage, but in the 'aptitude reference manual' which is referred to 
without a link. The path given in the SEE ALSO section might be that, 
but it doesn't say so.


But experience suggests that A means 'automatically installed' (and p 
stands for purged, which linguistically doesn't really mean 'maybe has 
been purged; maybe has never been installed').


Cheers,
Richard

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Javier Barroso]

Hello Greg,

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 7:22 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 01:01:59PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> > # man dpkg-query
> > ...
> >   Desired action:
> > u = Unknown
> > i = Install
>
> > v   lightdm-greeter  -
>
> I'm guessing it means "virtual".  Let's see:
>
> unicorn:~$ apt-cache show lightdm-greeter
> N: Can't select versions from package 'lightdm-greeter' as it is purely
> virtual
> N: No packages found
>
> Yeah, seems likely.
>
> P.S. If we're complaining about the lack of documentation for the cryptic
> output of the Debian tool set, can we say some words about aptitude?
> Seriously.
>
> Please see /usr/share/doc/aptitude/README

Probabbly the most complete README in Debian Archive

I would not complaint about aptitude documentation, but yes about all that
packages that are shipping with a poor /usr/share/doc/xxx directory and
without package-doc package (which would be nice to have).

At my system:
1364 /usr/share/doc/xxx directories with a README file (seems fine to me)
3591 /usr/share/doc/xxx directories without a README file (many of that
packages sure have manpages and/or info files)

I think it would be a improvement that README file be present at each
package, at least providing a mininum info about the package / program /
library.

i know it is a utopy, but would be beatiful an unified README file with
sections like:

What it is? Why it is installed? Is it configurable? What manpage or doc to
read? Links to webs

I know, it is Debian, you want, you can start to do the work ...

It is only a suggestion that would be Debian better for me.

Sometimes I says , oh no, another /usr/share/doc/xxx package only with
changelog (necessary for me too!) and license (perfect too!!) ! Where could
I learn about what is that library or that program! ?

i know how to search manpages, and search on the internet and search at
https://packages.qa.debian.org/common/index.html ... but it would be useful
to have a nice README for every package.

Well I hope this mail not disturb anybody, it is only a simple idea

Regards!

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-07-26 1:22 p.m., l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 26 juil. 2021, 19:01 de mrma...@earthlink.net:
> 
>> # man dpkg-query
>> ...
>>  Desired action:
>>  u = Unknown
>>  i = Install
>>  h = Hold
>>  r = Remove
>>  p = Purge
>>
>>  Package status:
>>  n = Not-installed
>>  c = Config-files
>>  H = Half-installed
>>  U = Unpacked
>>  F = Half-configured
>>  W = Triggers-awaiting
>>  t = Triggers-pending
>>  i = Installed
>>
>>  Error flags:
>>   = (none)
>>  R = Reinst-required
>> ...
>>
>> Above is the best I could find to explain the meaning of first columns.
>> Conspicuously absent is:
>>
>>  v
>>
>> e.g.:
>> # aptitude search lightdm
>> ...
>> p   liblightdm-qt5-3-dev - LightDM Qt 5 client library 
>> (development f
>> p   lightdm  - Display Manager
>> v   lightdm-greeter  -
>> p   lightdm-gtk-greeter  - simple display manager (GTK+ greeter)
>> v   lightdm-gtk-greeter-config   -
>> p   lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings - settings editor for the LightDM GTK+ 
>> Greet
>> p   lightdm-kde-greeter  - LightDM KDE greeter
>> p   lightdm-settings - LightDM configuration tool
>> p   lightdm-webkit-greeter   - LightDM Webkit Greeter
>> p   mythbuntu-lightdm-theme  - Mythbuntu LightDM setup
>> p   razorqt-lightdm-greeter  - LightDM greeter for Razor-qt desktop 
>> envir
>> v   razorqt-lightdm-greeter-config   -
>> ...
>>
>> What man page has a listing that includes "v"? Web searches are proving 
>> highly
>> resistant to providing its meaning. :~(
>>
>> Bonus question: why are descriptions absent from v line-items?
>>
> aptitude man page:
> 
> "Each search result is listed on a separate line. The first character of each 
> line indicates the current state of the package: the most common states are 
> p, meaning that no trace of the package exists on the system, c, meaning that 
> the package was deleted but its configuration files remain on the system, i, 
> meaning that the package is installed, and v, meaning that the package is 
> virtual."
> 
Would make sense to share the same character code with DPKG... Wouldn't it ?
> Best regards,
> l0f4r0
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Felix Miata]

Andrei POPESCU composed on 2021-07-26 21:54 (UTC+0300):

> Greg Wooledge wrote:

>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 07:22:49PM +0200, l0f4r0 wrote:

>>> Felix Miata wrote:

 # man dpkg-query

>>> aptitude man page:

>>> "Each search result is listed on a separate line. The first 
>>> character of each line indicates the current state of the package: 
>>> the most common states are p, meaning that no trace of the package 
>>> exists on the system, c, meaning that the package was deleted but 
>>> its configuration files remain on the system, i, meaning that the 
>>> package is installed, and v, meaning that the package is virtual."

>> Wait, wait, wait

>> First, are you telling me that the documentation for dpkg-query's output
>> format is in aptitude's man page? 


I pasted that list from aptitude's man page, at the point at which I had given 
up
hope of finding the answer. It's the identical "v"-omitted list from 
dpkg-query's
man page.

> I believe you misread, it was the OP that searched in 'man dpkg-query' 
> for the meaning of aptitude flags.


I was searching www and various man pages for a tabular *list* of meanings of 
the
letters after finding no "v" in the dpkg*/apt* man pages. After a long period of
frustration searching for that single letter command option, I pasted into my OP
the only list I managed to find that answered the question in an apparent
comprehensive tabular list format.

Had the word "virtual" come to mind, as it did for Greg, I may have managed to
come up with an answer myself, likely in similar manner.

Is there a catalog anywhere of all Debian's package management commands? 
Figuring
out which to use for any given requirement is a daunting task, with a multitude 
of
similar sibling/hyphenated/plugin commands taking the place of command options,
switches and sub-commands (as with yum/dnf); as opposed to zypper, which works
virtually exclusively with switches, sub-commands and options, *all* 
discoverable
by searching through a comprehensive _single_man_page_.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 26 iul 21, 13:22:12, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> P.S. If we're complaining about the lack of documentation for the cryptic
> output of the Debian tool set, can we say some words about aptitude?

There are many things to be said about aptitude. Lack of documentation 
wouldn't make my list.

Cryptic and hidden? Maybe... but lack of?

> Seriously.


$ wc /usr/share/doc/aptitude/README
8018  45423 458751 /usr/share/doc/aptitude/README


Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 26 iul 21, 13:40:46, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 07:22:49PM +0200, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
> > 26 juil. 2021, 19:01 de mrma...@earthlink.net:
> > > # man dpkg-query
> 
> > aptitude man page:
> > 
> > "Each search result is listed on a separate line. The first 
> > character of each line indicates the current state of the package: 
> > the most common states are p, meaning that no trace of the package 
> > exists on the system, c, meaning that the package was deleted but 
> > its configuration files remain on the system, i, meaning that the 
> > package is installed, and v, meaning that the package is virtual."
> 
> Wait, wait, wait
> 
> First, are you telling me that the documentation for dpkg-query's output
> format is in aptitude's man page?

I believe you misread, it was the OP that searched in 'man dpkg-query' 
for the meaning of aptitude flags.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 07:22:49PM +0200, l0f...@tuta.io wrote:
> 26 juil. 2021, 19:01 de mrma...@earthlink.net:
> > # man dpkg-query

> aptitude man page:
> 
> "Each search result is listed on a separate line. The first character of each 
> line indicates the current state of the package: the most common states are 
> p, meaning that no trace of the package exists on the system, c, meaning that 
> the package was deleted but its configuration files remain on the system, i, 
> meaning that the package is installed, and v, meaning that the package is 
> virtual."

Wait, wait, wait

First, are you telling me that the documentation for dpkg-query's output
format is in aptitude's man page?

Second, I searched for "and v" to find the section you cited... and it's
under "search".  Huh.  Well then.  It would be REALLY super helpful if
there were something under "why" that said "see search for the meaning
of the package state indicators".

Even better would be if the package state indicators were documented
in a separate section, all by themselves, in a *table*, so that they
stand out visually and can't be overlooked.  And then point to that
table from both "search" and "why".

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[l0f4r0]

Hi,

26 juil. 2021, 19:01 de mrma...@earthlink.net:

> # man dpkg-query
> ...
>  Desired action:
>  u = Unknown
>  i = Install
>  h = Hold
>  r = Remove
>  p = Purge
>
>  Package status:
>  n = Not-installed
>  c = Config-files
>  H = Half-installed
>  U = Unpacked
>  F = Half-configured
>  W = Triggers-awaiting
>  t = Triggers-pending
>  i = Installed
>
>  Error flags:
>   = (none)
>  R = Reinst-required
> ...
>
> Above is the best I could find to explain the meaning of first columns.
> Conspicuously absent is:
>
>  v
>
> e.g.:
> # aptitude search lightdm
> ...
> p   liblightdm-qt5-3-dev - LightDM Qt 5 client library 
> (development f
> p   lightdm  - Display Manager
> v   lightdm-greeter  -
> p   lightdm-gtk-greeter  - simple display manager (GTK+ greeter)
> v   lightdm-gtk-greeter-config   -
> p   lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings - settings editor for the LightDM GTK+ 
> Greet
> p   lightdm-kde-greeter  - LightDM KDE greeter
> p   lightdm-settings - LightDM configuration tool
> p   lightdm-webkit-greeter   - LightDM Webkit Greeter
> p   mythbuntu-lightdm-theme  - Mythbuntu LightDM setup
> p   razorqt-lightdm-greeter  - LightDM greeter for Razor-qt desktop 
> envir
> v   razorqt-lightdm-greeter-config   -
> ...
>
> What man page has a listing that includes "v"? Web searches are proving highly
> resistant to providing its meaning. :~(
>
> Bonus question: why are descriptions absent from v line-items?
>
aptitude man page:

"Each search result is listed on a separate line. The first character of each 
line indicates the current state of the package: the most common states are p, 
meaning that no trace of the package exists on the system, c, meaning that the 
package was deleted but its configuration files remain on the system, i, 
meaning that the package is installed, and v, meaning that the package is 
virtual."

Best regards,
l0f4r0

Re: explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 01:01:59PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> # man dpkg-query
> ...
>   Desired action:
> u = Unknown
> i = Install

> v   lightdm-greeter  -

I'm guessing it means "virtual".  Let's see:

unicorn:~$ apt-cache show lightdm-greeter
N: Can't select versions from package 'lightdm-greeter' as it is purely virtual
N: No packages found

Yeah, seems likely.

P.S. If we're complaining about the lack of documentation for the cryptic
output of the Debian tool set, can we say some words about aptitude?
Seriously.

   This command searches for packages that require or conflict with
   the given package. It displays a sequence of dependencies leading
   to the target package, along with a note indicating the installed
   state of each package in the dependency chain:

   $ aptitude why kdepim
   i   nautilus-data Recommends nautilus
   i A nautilus  Recommends desktop-base (>= 0.2)
   i A desktop-base  Suggests   gnome | kde | xfce4 | wmaker
   p   kde   Dependskdepim (>= 4:3.4.3)

What do *any* of those column-ish letters mean?  I can guess "i", maybe,
but not "A" or "p".  (I might have guessed "purged" for "p", but that
doesn't seem to fit the picture being painted by the example, which is
of a system that *does* have KDE installed.  In any case, why should I
have to guess these things?)

explanation of first column "v" is hiding

[Felix Miata]

# man dpkg-query
...
  Desired action:
u = Unknown
i = Install
h = Hold
r = Remove
p = Purge

  Package status:
n = Not-installed
c = Config-files
H = Half-installed
U = Unpacked
F = Half-configured
W = Triggers-awaiting
t = Triggers-pending
i = Installed

  Error flags:
 = (none)
R = Reinst-required
...

Above is the best I could find to explain the meaning of first columns.
Conspicuously absent is:

v

e.g.:
# aptitude search lightdm
...
p   liblightdm-qt5-3-dev - LightDM Qt 5 client library (development 
f
p   lightdm  - Display Manager
v   lightdm-greeter  -
p   lightdm-gtk-greeter  - simple display manager (GTK+ greeter)
v   lightdm-gtk-greeter-config   -
p   lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings - settings editor for the LightDM GTK+ 
Greet
p   lightdm-kde-greeter  - LightDM KDE greeter
p   lightdm-settings - LightDM configuration tool
p   lightdm-webkit-greeter   - LightDM Webkit Greeter
p   mythbuntu-lightdm-theme  - Mythbuntu LightDM setup
p   razorqt-lightdm-greeter  - LightDM greeter for Razor-qt desktop 
envir
v   razorqt-lightdm-greeter-config   -
...

What man page has a listing that includes "v"? Web searches are proving highly
resistant to providing its meaning. :~(

Bonus question: why are descriptions absent from v line-items?
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata