Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 05:36:55PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > debian-u...@howorth.org.uk (12023-03-30): > > But as a Perl developer you generally want something closer > > to the latest, greatest version. > > No. I develop, including in Perl, and like any other language, I want a > stable version for most use cases. Back when I did Perl more, I made a point that my applications ran with a wide range of versions. I only introduced version dependencies when there was a strong reason to do so. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
debian-u...@howorth.org.uk (12023-03-30): > But as a Perl developer you generally want something closer > to the latest, greatest version. No. I develop, including in Perl, and like any other language, I want a stable version for most use cases. -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Dan Ritter wrote: > Perl is quite stable, and has tooling to acquire modules and turn > them into Debian packages that works very well most of the time. Perl is a special case IME. It is used a lot by system features so it is important that the installed module versions match the rest of the system. (Although python et al are taking over some of these respons- ibilities). But as a Perl developer you generally want something closer to the latest, greatest version. Fortunately perl has an excellent mechanism for maintaining multiple versions of modules such that those installed from system repositories for system use and those installed from CPAN for development or other uses keep themselves separate in a very nice way. Other languages would do well to emulate it, IMHO.
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Albretch Mueller wrote: > On 3/29/23, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote: > > As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to > > me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency, > > since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time, > > and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get. > > Well, debian folks say it is gradle folks the ones that didn't get it > right and vice versa. > As you could see from their installation page, the one and only > installation prerequisite is a java version after the reflection API > was introduced. I would guess everyone who works from a Debian install > and need to install gradle is because they are using java already. > There have been 7 releases till JDK 19. > > Maybe debian packages should have various installation candidates > based on the JDK one has installed or during configuration of the > package if no java install is reachable it should look for it in the > filesystem and if it is still not found tell user and abort the > installation. The way it works in practice is this: - if you want a system to provide services, Debian has a consistent and stable method. - if you want to develop new software or run the latest versions of some applications, you will need to bring in specialized infrastructure on top of Debian's stable base. If the software is destined to be a Debian package, testing or even unstable might be your preference, and cooperation with a Debian development team. The simplest development approach is with the most stable languages. If you're writing in one of the gcc or clang supported languages, the versions supplied by Debian are generally what you want to use. But if you see a specific library that is under current development, or you need to track recent releases, you will need to obtain it and keep it up to date yourself. Perl is quite stable, and has tooling to acquire modules and turn them into Debian packages that works very well most of the time. Java and Python are of medium stability. For most projects, a C-like approach will work, but if you need specific recent features, you will need to get the ones you want yourself. For some newer languages, like Go or Rust, where the language itself is still under significant development, starting with the Debian-supplied packages is really only suitable for learning the language. Once you start a serious development effort, you will definitely want to maintain your own copy from upstream. -dsr-
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
On 3/29/23, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote: > As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to > me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency, > since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time, > and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get. Well, debian folks say it is gradle folks the ones that didn't get it right and vice versa. As you could see from their installation page, the one and only installation prerequisite is a java version after the reflection API was introduced. I would guess everyone who works from a Debian install and need to install gradle is because they are using java already. There have been 7 releases till JDK 19. Maybe debian packages should have various installation candidates based on the JDK one has installed or during configuration of the package if no java install is reachable it should look for it in the filesystem and if it is still not found tell user and abort the installation. lbrtchx
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
debian-u...@howorth.org.uk (12023-03-29): > As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to > me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency, > since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time, > and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get. This is true for most packages: you can install your .so.* in /usr/local/lib/. Yet packages depend on the shared libraries they need. If you install something separately, the solution to have it fulfill dependencies for packages is to make and install a dummy package. Regards, -- Nicolas George
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Albretch Mueller wrote: > OK this is what the gradle folks told me/us: > > > https://discuss.gradle.org/t/gradle-wants-as-java-version-openjdk-11-even-if-a-newer-version-is-installed/45254/6 > > Gradle itself would just use the Java from your JAVA_HOME or as > fallback from PATH (given you use a version that is compatible with > your Gradle version, otherwise it will most likely fail to execute > later on). > ~ > so, the installation by apt-get should have detected that I had set > JAVA_HOME and the included the JDK in my PATH. As others have pointed out, apt-get doesn't work like that. It seems to me that the gradle package is wrong in having java as a dependency, since the need can be resolved at run-time rather than install time, and by a dynamic link. So bug report the gradle package, not apt-get. > In case someone stumbles on the same problems, runs into the same > thread, here are the quick steps about how to install gradle on Linux > (without gregorian chanting " ... and if you use Windows, ... and if > you use MacOS, ..."): > > 1) look for the installation file at: https://gradle.org/install/ [snip of a message where Albretch explains how to install the upstream version of gradle instead of the packaged version.]
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
OK this is what the gradle folks told me/us:
https://discuss.gradle.org/t/gradle-wants-as-java-version-openjdk-11-even-if-a-newer-version-is-installed/45254/6
Gradle itself would just use the Java from your JAVA_HOME or as
fallback from PATH (given you use a version that is compatible with
your Gradle version, otherwise it will most likely fail to execute
later on).
~
so, the installation by apt-get should have detected that I had set
JAVA_HOME and the included the JDK in my PATH.
In case someone stumbles on the same problems, runs into the same
thread, here are the quick steps about how to install gradle on Linux
(without gregorian chanting " ... and if you use Windows, ... and if
you use MacOS, ..."):
1) look for the installation file at: https://gradle.org/install/
right now:
$ date
Tue 28 Mar 2023 06:14:52 PM UTC
it was: https://services.gradle.org/distributions/gradle-8.0.2-all.zip
2) set the directory where you want to keep the installation file
3) download the file to §2 using wget, curl or your browser
4) choose an
5) unzip -d "§4: which ever you chose" "§2:
path to the installation file "
6) set your: PATH="/bin"$PATH
7) test everything is OK:
$ which gradle
/bin/gradle
$ gradle --version
ERROR: JAVA_HOME is not set and no 'java' command could be found in your PATH.
Please set the JAVA_HOME variable in your environment to match the
location of your Java installation.
$ JAVA_HOME="<...>/GraalVM/graalvm-ce-java19-22.3.0"
PATH="${JAVA_HOME}/bin:$PATH"
which javac
javac -version
which java
java -version
<...>/GraalVM/graalvm-ce-java19-22.3.0/bin/javac
javac 19.0.1
<...>/GraalVM/graalvm-ce-java19-22.3.0/bin/java
openjdk version "19.0.1" 2022-10-18
OpenJDK Runtime Environment GraalVM CE 22.3.0 (build 19.0.1+10-jvmci-22.3-b08)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM GraalVM CE 22.3.0 (build
19.0.1+10-jvmci-22.3-b08, mixed mode, sharing)
$ gradle --version
Welcome to Gradle 8.0.2!
Here are the highlights of this release:
- Improvements to the Kotlin DSL
- Fine-grained parallelism from the first build with configuration cache
- Configurable Gradle user home cache cleanup
For more details see https://docs.gradle.org/8.0.2/release-notes.html
Gradle 8.0.2
Build time: 2023-03-03 16:41:37 UTC
Revision: 7d6581558e226a580d91d399f7dfb9e3095c2b1d
Kotlin: 1.8.10
Groovy: 3.0.13
Ant: Apache Ant(TM) version 1.10.11 compiled on July 10 2021
JVM: 19.0.1 (GraalVM Community 19.0.1+10-jvmci-22.3-b08)
OS: Linux 5.10.0-18-amd64 amd64
$ gradle --help
To see help contextual to the project, use gradle help
USAGE: gradle [option...] [task...]
-?, -h, --help Shows this help message.
...
$
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Let me try to disabuse myself somewhat with a bit of humor. Some of you have been telling me for a long time about how "visually upsetting" and "procedurally obnoxious" I am and as they say: "misunderstanding is as mutual as love should be". I can't really make sense of what you are telling me, nor do I understand why you would even take the time, energy to do so. Becoming a teacher, taught me to be a better person and notice a lot of other things about "people" (as a teacher you must entertain the functional illusion that people can, do learn, have free will, ... in the same way that when you are a doctor you must understand that there is an essential difference between biological beings, rocks and the rain). Now, do you know that more than a generation ago handwriting was basically written off curricula in the U.S.! https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/gen-z-handwriting-teaching-cursive-history/671246/ I have a hard time even trying to figured out what my students' name (let alone what they had written), but I would not really care about the visual aspects of it I would just try to decypher it. The same problem I have had with the truly crappy code that I have had to debug and here when I say "crappy" I am not referring to the visual impression of it (some people tend to make a big deal about the number of spaces you use for indentation and other people speaking with an accent), but the logic behind it. Let me not go into why I think that the new normal being taught is keyboarding. ~ Partially due to habituation, the neurobiology of our perception, evolutive adaptations, culture, ... we all have our own ways of doing, liking and disliking things. I am not a visual person, nor is my brother and mother (both excellent, creative musicians) and there is "something it is like" not being a visual person. I asked once my supervisor: "why she was talking in a bossy way to me and why she was talking like (with the timbre, voice and accent of) my supervisor?". You walk into a crowded elevator and you overhear two people talking, your mind goes "I know these 'voices'" and when you turn in an inadvertent way they happily go like: "Hi, Mr. López! How are you?" and I put on a smirk while "my mind" goes like: "and who the eff are you guys?" As girlfriend has told me "I can't just sit and watch a movie with her". I don't even own a TV set. The idea of "'just' sitting to watch a movie" I find so out of it all stupid that when girlfriend has forced me to go to the movies with her (and who am I to think that I don't have to do what my lady says?!) I invariably go with my books and almost always have stepped out to the lobby to read as I wait for her to come out. There are only like five (5) movies I can watch, have kept watching. I was shocked, very confused when I have heard Žižek using movies for his elucidations. I had put up with his philosophical bitchiness because we both love grandpa Hegel, but that started to give me serious doubts about his smarts and the depths his mind could reach. I keep three languages (all of them shamefully enough European), but even the white space doesn't feel the same in German, English or Spanish, not even within the same paragraph in the same language (I have heard other people saying similar things). They somehow feel like tones within their melodies. Racism (another "visual thing", mind you) I can't make sense of (I have a very hard time visually telling people apart, which the police know, so they use it against me). I take it as "a necessary social, 'functional illusion'", that people choose, need to believe in to make sense of, "justify" other social needs; kind of the crazy obsession Nazis/Adolf Hitler had with people's ears. He sent his "personal photographer" to a meeting some Nazi officers had with the Soviet nomenclature with the special job to get a good picture of Stalin's ear, to see "if he was really human", which based on his ear lobes he was! (what a disappointment!; now, that story is not totally stupid and hopelessly so, at least there was a falsifiable way to check your assertions. To gringos Russian people are "un-'American'" anyway (and in addition to that they are pro Russian?!) and that is all they need to know, they wouldn't have to prove anything to themselves). I once read from a scientific report from the times before the wide spread adoption of the Internet, computers and cell phones that on average gringos spent (1/4) of the waking time of their life watching TV! How is that even possible, even Mathematically! and the funny thing about it is that they make fun of Muslim people going for their relatively brief prayer calls three times during the day. Do the Math! I would rather pray to "Vladimir Putin" if it came to that, than spending (1/4) of my waking life watching TV! The best story I have heard so far about how we are different is about a person I know. His wife was dressing as a nun for Halloween with a large ruler hanging on
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
On 3/28/23, Nicolas George wrote: > Cindy Sue Causey (12023-03-28): >> Has "diff" come up in this thread yet? > The thread is in the archives. Yes, pleeze! Thank you very much! lbrtchx
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Even though I think it is not a problem with gradle per se, I was trying to make sense of things by also raising those issues with them: https://discuss.gradle.org/t/gradle-wants-as-java-version-openjdk-11-even-if-a-newer-version-is-installed/45254 those gradle folks should avail jar files with the latest version of their thing. On 3/28/23, Nicolas George wrote: > So what? You expect apt to check the random things installed in your > path? That is not how a package manager works. "random things" you said? Since we are talking here about gradle which is based of groovy, which is just a DSL implementation in java exploiting its reflection API, ... you are not making much sense. Notice that on their installation page: https://gradle.org/install/ they are not telling you that you must have exactly jdk-11. They do state that it must be greater than java version "1.8.0_121" which you check in exactly the way I did; so, it seems that during installation they do check for a java installation in the standard "java -version" way. What I am talking about doesn't exactly relate to what "package managers" do, or so I thought.
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Cindy Sue Causey (12023-03-28): > Has "diff" come up in this thread yet? The thread is in the archives. -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
On 3/28/23, Albretch Mueller wrote: > On 3/28/23, Nicolas George wrote: >> I suggest you show the contents of this file instead ... > > Did you mean you would rather have me post both 348 line files > instead of showing that they are the same? (I had eyeballed them, BTW) Has "diff" come up in this thread yet? That might catch a show stopper that appears visually normal otherwise.. Just thinking out loud. :) Cindy :) -- Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with birdseed *
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Albretch Mueller (12023-03-28): > Did you mean you would rather have me post both 348 line files > instead of showing that they are the same? That would have been less useless. But… > (I had eyeballed them, BTW) … you already knew how to make it even less useless. > as I showed by running "which ..." and "... -version" on the command > line, I did set up JAVA_HOME and included the corresponding version in > the PATH variable. So what? You expect apt to check the random things installed in your path? That is not how a package manager works. -- Nicolas George
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
On 3/28/23, Nicolas George wrote: > I suggest you show the contents of this file instead ... Did you mean you would rather have me post both 348 line files instead of showing that they are the same? (I had eyeballed them, BTW) as I showed by running "which ..." and "... -version" on the command line, I did set up JAVA_HOME and included the corresponding version in the PATH variable. lbrtchx
Re: gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
Albretch Mueller (12023-03-28):
> $ sudo apt-get install gradle --dry-run > jdk-19.txt
I suggest you show the contents of this file instead of showing us five
times it is identical to the previous one. But the explanation is quite
obvious:
> $ JAVA_HOME="/media/user/078TG3336/graalvm-ce-java19-22.3.0"
> PATH="${JAVA_HOME}/bin:$PATH"
How do you expect apt to take into account the fact that you installed
Java on a removable device?
Regards,
--
Nicolas George
gradle wants openjdk-11 even if a newer version is installed? ...
I was having issues with the installation of gradle (the groovy DSL
based compilation tool) and I think it relates to gradle assuming you
have version 11 of the jdk installed:
$ sudo apt-get install gradle --dry-run > jdk-11.txt
$ JAVA_HOME="/media/user/078TG3336/graalvm-ce-java19-22.3.0"
PATH="${JAVA_HOME}/bin:$PATH"
which javac
javac -version
which java
java -version
/media/user/078TG3336/graalvm-ce-java19-22.3.0/bin/javac
javac 19.0.1
/media/user/078TG3336/graalvm-ce-java19-22.3.0/bin/java
openjdk version "19.0.1" 2022-10-18
OpenJDK Runtime Environment GraalVM CE 22.3.0 (build 19.0.1+10-jvmci-22.3-b08)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM GraalVM CE 22.3.0 (build
19.0.1+10-jvmci-22.3-b08, mixed mode, sharing)
$ sudo apt-get install gradle --dry-run > jdk-19.txt
$ diff jdk-11.txt jdk-19.txt
$
$ file jdk-11.txt jdk-19.txt
jdk-11.txt: ASCII text
jdk-19.txt: ASCII text
$ wc -l jdk-11.txt jdk-19.txt
348 jdk-11.txt
348 jdk-19.txt
696 total
$ ls -l jdk-11.txt jdk-19.txt
-rw-r--r-- 1 user user 21405 Mar 28 07:58 jdk-11.txt
-rw-r--r-- 1 user user 21405 Mar 28 07:59 jdk-19.txt
$ sha256sum jdk-11.txt jdk-19.txt
a9f91225693514bfdf4a1079d4a22f9f8086959bd8939b0b592cba042aff689e jdk-11.txt
a9f91225693514bfdf4a1079d4a22f9f8086959bd8939b0b592cba042aff689e jdk-19.txt
$
Is there a way to fix that? I am asking the gradle folks as well, but
I am not sure if it is a Debian package maintenance issue.
lbrtchx
