Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2005-08-18 13:15:23 +0800, csj wrote:
> If that's the case the patent on mp3 should have expired by
> now.

There are several patents. See .

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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[csj]

On 17. August 2005 at 10:37PM -0700,
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wednesday 17 August 2005 08:57 am, Javier-Elias Vasquez-Vivas wrote:
> > On 8/13/05, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Saturday 13 August 2005 10:05 pm, Rishi wrote:
> > > > Just curious. Any reasons why the 'lame' package is not included in
> > > > the debian package repository?
> > >
> > > Thanks to BMG Music, all MP3 encoders are non-free.  Try a
> > > patent-unencumbered format like Ogg Vorbis instead.
> >
> > How about flac?  Is there any comparisson between flac and Ogg in
> > terms of compresion and sound quality?
> 
> Well, FLAC aims to be lossless, so I would estimate compression
> to be practically nil (I could be wrong; don't know about
> FLAC).  Haven't heard or seen comparisons between the two
> formats.

My "real life" tests tell me FLAC compresses to better than 50%
of a .wav ripped from a digitally recorded (DDD) "classical"
music CD. That is, the file size is effectively halved. The ratio
can get as good as 1/3 of the file. "Remastered" analog
recordings (AAD or ADD) fare slightly worse.

Not as good as Vorbis or MP3, where you typically get 1/10th
compression. But for archiving my audio CDs, there's simply no
substitute. It's a different matter if I'm looking to have the
music available in a "portable" format. Then I settle for Ogg
Vorbis.

> I do know the odds of finding a portable Ogg Vorbis player is
> slightly better than that of finding a portable FLAC player,
> though.

More like orders of magnitude better. I now see Ogg Vorbis
players from non-niche manufacturers like Samsung (which
manufactures everything from TVs to washing machines).


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Paul Johnson]

http://ursine.ca/Top_Posting

On Wednesday 17 August 2005 08:57 am, Javier-Elias Vasquez-Vivas wrote:
> On 8/13/05, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Saturday 13 August 2005 10:05 pm, Rishi wrote:
> > > Just curious. Any reasons why the 'lame' package is not included in
> > > the debian package repository?
> >
> > Thanks to BMG Music, all MP3 encoders are non-free.  Try a
> > patent-unencumbered format like Ogg Vorbis instead.
>
> How about flac?  Is there any comparisson between flac and Ogg in
> terms of compresion and sound quality?

Well, FLAC aims to be lossless, so I would estimate compression to be 
practically nil (I could be wrong; don't know about FLAC).  Haven't heard or 
seen comparisons between the two formats.

I do know the odds of finding a portable Ogg Vorbis player is slightly better 
than that of finding a portable FLAC player, though.


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Packaging of lame upstream (was: Re: lame not in the debian package repository?)

[Rogério Brito]

Hi, this is just an aside on this discussion.

I am a member of the lame team and I am gradually upgrading things related
to the Debian packaging of lame, since a new release (that is, lame 3.97)
is expected to happen soon.

If you use MP3 for your computers/devices and you use Debian, please let me
know how the package works for you.

The packaging is still not in a good shape, but I hope to get it better and
I would appreciate any help from developers with comments on the packaging.

BTW, talking about MP3, I also plan on packaging vbrfix for Debian (which
is a utility to fix VBR MP3 files that don't have proper headers). I am in
contact with the author of vbrfix and I have some clean-ups in mind.

This program, BTW, is written in C++, which means that it may not reach
Debian's testing soon, given the ABI transition, if I manage to get it
sponsored for Debian proper.


Cheers,

-- 
Rogério Brito : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito
Homepage of the algorithms package : http://algorithms.berlios.de
Homepage on freshmeat:  http://freshmeat.net/projects/algorithms/


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[csj]

On 17. August 2005 at 6:04PM +0200,
Hans du Plooy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


[...]

> Ogg (Vorbis audio) is a much more recent technology than mp3, twenty or 
> so years if I'm not mistaken.  mp3 has been around a lot longer than it 
> has been popular, mostly because PCs only became strong enough to play 
> back mp3s smoothly around the time of the 386/486.  And of course saving 
> audio was a drag in those days because of space :-)

If that's the case the patent on mp3 should have expired by
now. If I'm not mistaken (and I'm also shooting in the dark here)
patents are good for 15 years. Unless of course Fraunhofer took
its sweet time applying for their mp3 patent.

[...]


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Hans du Plooy]

Javier-Elias Vasquez-Vivas wrote:

How about flac?  Is there any comparisson between flac and Ogg in
terms of compresion and sound quality?


Flac is lossless compression.  Almost like zipping a wav file, the 
compression is just optimised for the type of data in an audio stream.


Ogg does the same thing as mp3, it just does it a lot better.  It cuts 
out some (how much depends on the quality value or bitrate you specify) 
things that the human ear supposedly cannot hear, to save space, and 
then compresses it.  This is called lossy encoding.


Ogg (Vorbis audio) is a much more recent technology than mp3, twenty or 
so years if I'm not mistaken.  mp3 has been around a lot longer than it 
has been popular, mostly because PCs only became strong enough to play 
back mp3s smoothly around the time of the 386/486.  And of course saving 
audio was a drag in those days because of space :-)


I don't know the exact dates or specs, but I know mp3 (MPEG 2 layer 3 I 
think) has been around for a while.


Hans


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Javier-Elias Vasquez-Vivas]

How about flac?  Is there any comparisson between flac and Ogg in
terms of compresion and sound quality?

Thx,

Javier.

On 8/13/05, Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Saturday 13 August 2005 10:05 pm, Rishi wrote:
> 
> > Just curious. Any reasons why the 'lame' package is not included in
> > the debian package repository?
> 
> Thanks to BMG Music, all MP3 encoders are non-free.  Try a
> patent-unencumbered format like Ogg Vorbis instead.

Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 10:33 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 11:53:11PM -0700, Marc Wilson wrote:
> > 
> > He also incorrectly attributed the ownership of the patent(s).
> 
> Just for the record, what *is* the proper patent attribution?

The Fraunhofer Institute for Integrated Circuits.
http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/legal/index.html

They, though, have licensed it to Thomson.
http://www.mp3licensing.com/
-- 
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Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

"You ask us the same question every day, and we give you the same
answer every day. Someday, we hope that you will believe us..."
U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to a reporter



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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 11:53:11PM -0700, Marc Wilson wrote:
> 
> He also incorrectly attributed the ownership of the patent(s).

Just for the record, what *is* the proper patent attribution?

-- hendrik



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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Paul Johnson]

On Saturday 13 August 2005 11:40 pm, Rishi wrote:
> > As Paul pointed out, it is better to use a tool that implements a
> > patent-free algorithm.
>
> Hmm. Then I guess I screwed up when I bought the Sony USB NS-11 MP3
> Player (512 MB). I tried to play an OGG file on the device, but no
> joy.
>
> Does anyone know of hardware ogg players (usb) that I can buy?

Given Ogg Vorbis' strong and increasingly large following, particularly on 
file sharing networks, makes the lack of abundant and inexpensive Ogg Vorbis 
hardware particularly odd...


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Douglas Ward]

On Monday 15 August 2005 04:37, Hans du Plooy wrote:
> I really couldn't care if mp3 is free or not, it doesn't cost anything
> to compile lame and it doesn't cost anything to play back mp3s either,
> so what's the fuss?

Another poster correctly stated it isn't DFSG-Free, though it is available. 
Simply put, issues occur when LAME is sold (i.e., part of a for-profit 
distribution). (For playback of MP3/decoding, the issue is that the license 
is restrictive in a way that the owner(s) can, at any time, decide when to 
charge for decoders.) Basically, a stamp of Debian Free means that the the 
software can legally be distributed and redistributed forever (including in 
for-profit usage of Debian). Because of similar issues, MP3 encoders and 
decoders can not be guaranteed to be forever redistributable.


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Anders Breindahl]

On Monday 15 August 2005 10:37, Hans du Plooy wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > But the point still stands, if you want free you use Ogg.  If you want
> > wrong, go with MP3.
>
> I really couldn't care if mp3 is free or not, it doesn't cost anything
> to compile lame and it doesn't cost anything to play back mp3s either,
> so what's the fuss?

That, in order to use the technology patented by BMG Music (right?), you'll 
have to make an agreement with them. That technology only is in effect when 
encoding to mp3, and therefore LAME -- although easily and freely 
distributable -- can't be used freely; it isn't DFSG-free.

That's the fuss.

> What concerns me more is that ogg offers much better sound quality for
> the same bitrate/size as mp3.  *That* is what's important to me.

Sorry to hear that, but it's your choice nonetheless. BTW, ``ogg'' is only the 
container format -- the audio codec goes by the name ``Vorbis''.

Regards, Anders Breindahl.


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Hans du Plooy]

Paul Johnson wrote:
But the point still stands, if you want free you use Ogg.  If you want wrong, 
go with MP3.


I really couldn't care if mp3 is free or not, it doesn't cost anything 
to compile lame and it doesn't cost anything to play back mp3s either, 
so what's the fuss?


What concerns me more is that ogg offers much better sound quality for 
the same bitrate/size as mp3.  *That* is what's important to me.


Hans


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Paul Johnson]

On Sunday 14 August 2005 08:25 am, Marc Wilson wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2005 at 02:45:21PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > Then you should use MS Windows. :-/
>
> I do, for some things.  For other things, I use Linux, for still other
> things I use oBSD, and for yet more things, I use MacOS X.

But the point still stands, if you want free you use Ogg.  If you want wrong, 
go with MP3.


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Marc Wilson]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2005 at 02:45:21PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> Then you should use MS Windows. :-/

I do, for some things.  For other things, I use Linux, for still other
things I use oBSD, and for yet more things, I use MacOS X.

-- 
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | geek.


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2005-08-13 23:53:11 -0700, Marc Wilson wrote:
> Paul did not point out that it was better to use a tool that
> implements a patent-free algorithm. He merely made the usual "use
> Vorbis!" knee-jerk reaction.
> 
> Personally, I find "more widely supported" a compelling measure of
> "better".

Then you should use MS Windows. :-/

As for me, I neither use MS Windows, nor MP3 (when encoding audio files).
If some hardware doesn't support Ogg Vorbis, then I don't use it.

-- 
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Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Jochen Schulz]

Rishi:
> 
> Does anyone know of hardware ogg players (usb) that I can buy?

This question was answered just a couple of days ago. Search for
"Portable OGG Player". My recommendation: Iriver H120 (or H140, for 40GB
instead of 20).

J.
-- 
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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Marc Wilson]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2005 at 01:38:52AM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> As Paul pointed out, it is better to use a tool that implements a
> patent-free algorithm.

Paul did not point out that it was better to use a tool that implements a
patent-free algorithm.  He merely made the usual "use Vorbis!" knee-jerk
reaction.

Personally, I find "more widely supported" a compelling measure of
"better".

He also incorrectly attributed the ownership of the patent(s).

-- 
 Marc Wilson | mummy, n.: An Egyptian who was pressed for time.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Rishi]

> As Paul pointed out, it is better to use a tool that implements a
> patent-free algorithm.

Hmm. Then I guess I screwed up when I bought the Sony USB NS-11 MP3
Player (512 MB). I tried to play an OGG file on the device, but no
joy.

Does anyone know of hardware ogg players (usb) that I can buy?

Rishi

Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Roy Pluschke]

On August 13, 2005 22:38, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
> As Paul pointed out, it is better to use a tool that implements a
> patent-free algorithm.

Yes, but unfortunately my car stereo only plays mp3's

RJP


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 10:22:52PM -0700, Roy Pluschke wrote:
> On August 13, 2005 22:05, Rishi wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Just curious. Any reasons why the 'lame' package is not included in
> > the debian package repository?
> >
> > Regards
> 
> Legal reasons -- mp3 encoding is patented.  Use ftp://ftp.nerim.net as a 
> repository for lame, mplayer, audio/video codecs etc.
> 

As Paul pointed out, it is better to use a tool that implements a
patent-free algorithm.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Roy Pluschke]

On August 13, 2005 22:05, Rishi wrote:
> Hi
>
> Just curious. Any reasons why the 'lame' package is not included in
> the debian package repository?
>
> Regards

Legal reasons -- mp3 encoding is patented.  Use ftp://ftp.nerim.net as a 
repository for lame, mplayer, audio/video codecs etc.

RJP


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Re: lame not in the debian package repository?

[Paul Johnson]

On Saturday 13 August 2005 10:05 pm, Rishi wrote:

> Just curious. Any reasons why the 'lame' package is not included in
> the debian package repository?

Thanks to BMG Music, all MP3 encoders are non-free.  Try a 
patent-unencumbered format like Ogg Vorbis instead.


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lame not in the debian package repository?

[Rishi]

Hi

Just curious. Any reasons why the 'lame' package is not included in
the debian package repository?

Regards
-- 
Rishi