Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-18 Thread Ron Leach 

On 18/11/2013 16:33, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

Hi,

I don't know what happened to quoting in your message but it was nigh-on
unreadable. It might be worth a look at your mailer settings.



Jonathan, thank you for the note.  I've rechecked.

Looks OK in our mailer, looks fine from the copy from the list and, 
especially, looks ok on the list archive:


http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg00965.html

Happy to check further, but not seeing any problem to aim at, at the 
moment.


regards, Ron


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Archive: http://lists.debian.org/528a45dc.6080...@tesco.net

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-18 Thread Tony van der Hoff 
On 18/11/13 16:52, Ron Leach wrote:
> On 18/11/2013 16:33, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't know what happened to quoting in your message but it was nigh-on
>> unreadable. It might be worth a look at your mailer settings.
>>
>>
> Jonathan, thank you for the note.  I've rechecked.
> 
> Looks OK in our mailer, looks fine from the copy from the list and,
> especially, looks ok on the list archive:
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg00965.html
> 
> Happy to check further, but not seeing any problem to aim at, at the
> moment.
> 
> regards, Ron
> 
This, and the previous, looks fine here; I suspect the problem might be
at Jonathan's end.



-- 
Tony van der Hoff| mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org
Buckinghamshire, England |


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/528a4755.10...@vanderhoff.org

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-18 Thread Bob Proulx 
Ron Leach wrote:
> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I don't know what happened to quoting in your message but it was nigh-on
> >unreadable. It might be worth a look at your mailer settings.
>
> Jonathan, thank you for the note.  I've rechecked.
> 
> Looks OK in our mailer, looks fine from the copy from the list and,
> especially, looks ok on the list archive:
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg00965.html
> 
> Happy to check further, but not seeing any problem to aim at, at the
> moment.

Wrong message.  The message Jonathan responded to was this one:

  Emilio Lopez wrote:
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg00927.html

That message was bottom posted after the full long quoting of your
message.  Your original message was format=flowed so the long lines
were no problem.  (Except for verbatim cut-n-paste of program output
or configuration files, which would get wrapped then.  Only a
potential problem at this point since you haven't sent any that would
be long enough to hit the wrap problem yet.)

But in the full quoting the format=flowed was lost and the result of
that was quite hard to read since in the bad quoting the lines were
very long.  Since it was full quoted 2 lines were from Emilio and 75
were from Ron.  Really the quoted message should have been trimmed.
Personally I would love to see a mail filter on mailing lists that
examined a message and rejected it if too much text was quoted without
trimming.

Bob


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-18 Thread Brad Rogers 
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:52:44 +
Ron Leach  wrote:

Hello Ron,

>Jonathan, thank you for the note.  I've rechecked.

I think Jonathan was directing his comments to Emilio, not you.   It's
difficult to know for sure as he didn't use a name, or quote some of the
offending message.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
I must be hallucinating, watching angels celebrating
There Must Be An Angel (Playing With My Heart) - Eurythmics


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Chris Bannister 
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 05:07:52PM +, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:52:44 +
> Ron Leach  wrote:
> 
> Hello Ron,
> 
> >Jonathan, thank you for the note.  I've rechecked.
> 
> I think Jonathan was directing his comments to Emilio, not you.   It's
> difficult to know for sure as he didn't use a name, or quote some of the
> offending message.

It was hard to take seriously exactly for that reason.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131119085400.GB1151@tal

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Andre Majorel 
On 2013-11-19 21:54 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 05:07:52PM +, Brad Rogers wrote:
>
> > I think Jonathan was directing his comments to Emilio, not
> > you. It's difficult to know for sure as he didn't use a
> > name, or quote some of the offending message.

An attribution wouldn't have hurt but it's plain to see that Jon
was replying to Emilio's message, not Ron's. Or don't mailers
show threads any more ?

> It was hard to take seriously exactly for that reason.

Don't make a rod for your own back. 

-- 
André Majorel 
Choosy spammers prefer lists.debian.org.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131119132621.gd6...@aym.net2.nerim.net

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Jonathan Dowland 
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 05:07:52PM +, Brad Rogers wrote:
> I think Jonathan was directing his comments to Emilio, not you.   It's
> difficult to know for sure as he didn't use a name, or quote some of the
> offending message.

That's right. My mailer did set in-reply-to correctly, and the message
threaded properly in my mailer, but it would not have hurt for me to
mention Emilio in the body of my message.

The main issue, as Bob P has correctly identified, relates to
format=flowed. Ron's message was marked as format=flowed, but Emilio's
was not. Emilio's mailer added newlines in the middle of Ron's lines but
didn't add corresponding quote marks.

The solution would probably be to trim the quote down to the minimum
required context.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131119133843.gb27...@bryant.redmars.org

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Bob Proulx 
Andre Majorel wrote:
> Or don't mailers show threads any more ?

Actually many popular (but incorrect) mail user agents do not show
threads.  Previously the biggest offender was Outlook.  These days the
biggest offender is Gmail.  I find it very surprising that a mail user
agent wouldn't handle theads.  I forgive mailx for not handling
threads but Gmail?  Especially these days.  Gmail should handle
message threads.

Gmail uses a "group by subject line" model.  It is definitely not the
same as a threaded conversation.  In Gmail if the subject line
changes, something that has always been a good practice when the topic
has drifted, then the message is displayed unattached to any previous
message.  Worse is that if an unrelated message has the same subject
then it is grouped together into the same "group by subject" even if
it has no relationship to the previous email.

Bob


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 16:04 -0700, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Andre Majorel wrote:
> > Or don't mailers show threads any more ?
> 
> Actually many popular (but incorrect) mail user agents do not show
> threads.  Previously the biggest offender was Outlook.  These days the
> biggest offender is Gmail.  I find it very surprising that a mail user
> agent wouldn't handle theads.  I forgive mailx for not handling
> threads but Gmail?  Especially these days.  Gmail should handle
> message threads.
> 
> Gmail uses a "group by subject line" model.  It is definitely not the
> same as a threaded conversation.  In Gmail if the subject line
> changes, something that has always been a good practice when the topic
> has drifted, then the message is displayed unattached to any previous
> message.  Worse is that if an unrelated message has the same subject
> then it is grouped together into the same "group by subject" even if
> it has no relationship to the previous email.

Averaged computer users very often replace the subject and body of a
message, IOW they only keep the address to write a new mail. They aren't
aware, that they keep some magic note that is hidden in a magical
header. I suspect that Gmail doesn't support it for good reasons. Mails
sorted by thread for the averaged Gmail user would cause much confusion
and claims that Gmail should be buggy. They likely try to protect users
against confusion and Gmail against a bad reputation for the masses. I
don't know Gmail myself, but it sounds like it's perfectly pimped out
for the masses.



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1384903384.1207.138.camel@archlinux

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Bob Proulx 
Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Averaged computer users very often replace the subject and body of a
> message, IOW they only keep the address to write a new mail. They aren't
> aware, that they keep some magic note that is hidden in a magical
> header. I suspect that Gmail doesn't support it for good reasons.

They do so many other heavy handed things it would be easy if they
stripped out the In-Reply-To and References headers if someone
completely changed the subject to something different.  Still
incorrect but at least less annoying.

> Mails sorted by thread for the averaged Gmail user would cause much
> confusion and claims that Gmail should be buggy. They likely try to
> protect users against confusion and Gmail against a bad reputation
> for the masses. I don't know Gmail myself, but it sounds like it's
> perfectly pimped out for the masses.

You are very likely correct considering how popular it is with the
masses.

Bob


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Ralf Mardorf 
On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 16:29 -0700, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > Averaged computer users very often replace the subject and body of a
> > message, IOW they only keep the address to write a new mail. They aren't
> > aware, that they keep some magic note that is hidden in a magical
> > header. I suspect that Gmail doesn't support it for good reasons.
> 
> They do so many other heavy handed things it would be easy if they
> stripped out the In-Reply-To and References headers if someone
> completely changed the subject to something different.  Still
> incorrect but at least less annoying.

That's a good idea for this kind of web-mailers + those web-mailers
should default to plain text.

Incorrect, but I agree, it's not a bad idea.

:)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1384904415.1207.143.camel@archlinux

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-19 Thread Chris Bannister 
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 02:26:21PM +0100, Andre Majorel wrote:
> On 2013-11-19 21:54 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 05:07:52PM +, Brad Rogers wrote:
> >
> > > I think Jonathan was directing his comments to Emilio, not
> > > you. It's difficult to know for sure as he didn't use a
> > > name, or quote some of the offending message.
> 
> An attribution wouldn't have hurt but it's plain to see that Jon
> was replying to Emilio's message, not Ron's. Or don't mailers
> show threads any more ?

Mutt, the one I use, does; but I don't keep *all* the messages in a
thread. I must have deleted the message that Jonathan referred to at
some stage. I think this adds more credence to the point that providing
context and attribution would certainly help avoid conversations like
this one.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131120044545.GC20025@tal

Re: message formatting [was Wheezy/XFCE/VNC}

2013-11-22 Thread Andre Majorel 
On 2013-11-20 17:45 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 02:26:21PM +0100, Andre Majorel wrote:
>
> > An attribution wouldn't have hurt but it's plain to see that Jon
> > was replying to Emilio's message, not Ron's. Or don't mailers
> > show threads any more ?
> 
> Mutt, the one I use, does; but I don't keep *all* the messages
> in a thread. I must have deleted the message that Jonathan
> referred to at some stage. I think this adds more credence to
> the point that providing context and attribution would
> certainly help avoid conversations like this one.

Agreed with your conclusion but I'll add one of my own :
deleting mail has a cost. :->

A possible alternative is flagging. "F" to mark the important
posts, "/~F" and "n" to find them, "l~F" to hide the others.

-- 
André Majorel 
bugs.debian.org, food for your spambots.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131122152849.ga14...@aym.net2.nerim.net