Re: new pc and swap

[Richard Hector]

On 01/11/16 22:57, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>> Spanning devices seems to me to be more or less the same as RAID0
>> (striping), and just as risky
> 
> The default is to concatenate PVs like RAID "linear" (JBOD), although
> LVM can do striping too.

True, but either way, removing one disk may damage a volume.

Richard

Re: new pc and swap

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 01/11/16 19:04, Johann Spies wrote:

LVM has bitten me more than once in the past and I will not use it again.
In both situations it spanned more than one disk and one of the disks
failed - leaving you with unrecoverable data.


I use LVM inside LUKS on a single device. This configuration is great 
for requiring only one encrypted partition, with LVM providing the 
benefit of multiple logical volumes and the management benefits of 
separate volumes for root and home (for example).


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: new pc and swap

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 01/11/2016 à 14:07, Stefan Monnier a écrit :


The only times I put several PVs in a VG is when moving data between
disks:


Several PVs does not mean several disks.

A use case of multiple PVs per VG on one disk is when you want to create 
several VGs (for whatever reason) and be able to extend them. So you 
leave free space on the disk and create a new PV every time you need to 
extend a VG.

Re: new pc and swap

[Stefan Monnier]

>> LVM has bitten me more than once in the past and I will not use it
>> again.  In both situations it spanned more than one disk and one of the
>> disks failed - leaving you with unrecoverable data.
> I don't think I've ever used it like that, and probably wouldn't. At
> least not unless the underlying devices were RAID1 or similar.

The only times I put several PVs in a VG is when moving data between
disks:
- pvcreate /dev/sd
- vgextend  /dev/sd
- pvmove /dev/sd
- vgreduce  /dev/sd

But indeed, this creates a temporary mirror and is hence safe w.r.t
disk failure.


Stefan

Re: new pc and swap

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 01/11/2016 à 09:25, Richard Hector a écrit :

On 01/11/16 19:04, Johann Spies wrote:

LVM has bitten me more than once in the past and I will not use it
again.  In both situations it spanned more than one disk and one of the
disks failed - leaving you with unrecoverable data.


I don't think I've ever used it like that, and probably wouldn't. At
least not unless the underlying devices were RAID1 or similar.


Indeed it is highly recommended to use some redundancy (external with 
physical or software mdadm RAID, or internal within LVM) when spanning 
LVM over multiple disks.



Spanning devices seems to me to be more or less the same as RAID0
(striping), and just as risky


The default is to concatenate PVs like RAID "linear" (JBOD), although 
LVM can do striping too.

Re: new pc and swap

[Richard Hector]

On 01/11/16 19:04, Johann Spies wrote:
> LVM has bitten me more than once in the past and I will not use it
> again.  In both situations it spanned more than one disk and one of the
> disks failed - leaving you with unrecoverable data.

I don't think I've ever used it like that, and probably wouldn't. At
least not unless the underlying devices were RAID1 or similar.

Spanning devices seems to me to be more or less the same as RAID0
(striping), and just as risky - perhaps slightly more convenient to
recover data from, but it certainly doesn't sound easy.

On the other hand, constraining myself to one 'device' (generally an
mdraid RAID1 device, often on partitions smaller than the disk) per vg,
I would rarely do without it.

Richard




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Re: new pc and swap

[Johann Spies]

On 1 November 2016 at 01:08, Mark Fletcher  wrote:

>
> > (am I an LVM fanboy ? Hmm, maybe)is better than life itself,
>
>
LVM has bitten me more than once in the past and I will not use it again.
In both situations it spanned more than one disk and one of the disks
failed - leaving you with unrecoverable data.

Regards
Johann

Re: new pc and swap

[Mark Fletcher]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 07:53:31PM +0100, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Le 31/10/2016 à 14:54, Stefan Monnier a écrit :
> >
> >Of course, it's possible.  But if you setup a system from scratch I'd
> >highly recommend you put "everything" into an LVM volume group so you
> >can then use an LVM volume for swap rather than a file (but with the
> >same advantages as using a file: it's easy to resize/create on-demand
> >at run-time).
> 
> I second that suggestion.
> (am I an LVM fanboy ? Hmm, maybe)
> 
> >PS: I put "everything" between quotes because I'm not sure I'd recommend
> >to also put /boot in an LVM volume.  IIUC it can be made to work
> >nowadays, but my systems still use a two-partition setup: one small
> >partition for /boot, and the rest for LVM.
> 
> GRUB 2 can read LVM, so it can boot a system with /boot in LVM. I have used
> this kind of setup. The advantage is that you don't need a separate
> partition for /boot and that it provides all the benefits of LVM to /boot. I
> don't know about LILO nor any other bootloader.
> 
> However, if the LVM structure gets corrupted and GRUB cannot read it, then
> the boot process will fail before the boot menu. If /boot is on a separate
> partition which can be read, then the boot will fail only after loading and
> running the kernel and the initramfs. So the initramfs debug shell is still
> available to investigate and try to repair the issue without requiring to
> boot another system.
> 
> Also, with BIOS/legacy boot, putting /boot in LVM requires that GRUB's core
> image (boot sector) is installed in the disk boot sector (aka MBR, not in a
> partition boot sector) and GRUB's core image is installed in the "embedded
> area" on a DOS-style disk or in a dedicated "BIOS boot"/bios_grub partition
> on a GPT-style disk (not as a regular file in /boot/grub).
> 
 This subthread (this mail and all the ones that led to it) have been 
most enlightening. Please ignore my previous mail asking for 
clarification -- should have read this subthread before replying.

Mark

Re: new pc and swap

[Mark Fletcher]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:54:19AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> 
> PS: I put "everything" between quotes because I'm not sure I'd recommend
> to also put /boot in an LVM volume.  IIUC it can be made to work
> nowadays, but my systems still use a two-partition setup: one small
> partition for /boot, and the rest for LVM.
> 

Sorry, stupid question alert. Are you saying you use LVM on a single 
partition? What's the benefit of that?

Mark

Re: new pc and swap

[John L. Ries]

On Monday 2016-10-31 12:27, Richard Owlett wrote:

> Whither goest LVM?

I normally put it on a primary partition as if I'm using it, I've never
needed more than four partitions.  But I know of no reason why it can't
go on a logical partition.

--|
John L. Ries  |
Salford Systems   |
Phone: (619)543-8880 x107 |
or (435)867-8885  |
--|


On Monday 2016-10-31 12:27, Richard Owlett wrote:

>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 12:27:22
>From: Richard Owlett <rowl...@cloud85.net>
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>Subject: Re: new pc and swap
>Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 18:27:47 +
>Resent-From: <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
>
> On 10/31/2016 8:54 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>>> I once read that it was possible to swap to a named file, rather
>>>>> than a swap partition.  Is that possible with Jessie?
>>
>> Of course, it's possible.  But if you setup a system from scratch I'd
>> highly recommend you put "everything" into an LVM volume group so you
>> can then use an LVM volume for swap rather than a file (but with the
>> same advantages as using a file: it's easy to resize/create on-demand
>> at run-time).
>>
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>> PS: I put "everything" between quotes because I'm not sure I'd recommend
>> to also put /boot in an LVM volume.  IIUC it can be made to work
>> nowadays, but my systems still use a two-partition setup: one small
>> partition for /boot, and the rest for LVM.
>>
>>
>
> HUH! U lost me ;/
> To paraphrase Julius Caesar:
> omnia disci en tres partes est:
>  primary
>  extended
>  logical
>
> Whither goest LVM?
>
> I'm so lost as to not be able to ask an answerable question.
> Help please ;/
> TIA
>
> P.S. a wise person admits his ignorance.
>
>
>
>

Re: new pc and swap

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 01:27:22PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> omnia disci en tres partes est:
>   primary
>   extended
>   logical
> 
> Whither goest LVM?

Either ou go with Pascal's advice and use GPT, or, if you feel more
comfortable, you go with the traditional DOS partitioning you sketched
above. Then, you need two "traditional" partitions:

 - one (small) primary for boot
 - another (the rest) either primary, or a logical within the extended
   (doesn't matter that much which; my Debian installer chose the second
   variant, I let it do its thing), which is then the "physical volume"
   for LVM, which does its own partition scheme within that.

In my case, the partition looks like:

  tomas@rasputin:~$ sudo fdisk -l /dev/sda
  [sudo] password for tomas: 
  
  Disk /dev/sda: 1000.2 GB, 1000204886016 bytes
  255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 121601 cylinders, total 1953525168 sectors
  Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
  Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 4096 bytes
  I/O size (minimum/optimal): 4096 bytes / 4096 bytes
  Disk identifier: 0x000d2482
  
 Device Boot  Start End  Blocks   Id  System
  /dev/sda1   *2048 2099199 1048576   83  Linux
  /dev/sda2 2099200  1953525167   9757129845  Extended
  /dev/sda5 2101248  1953525167   975711960   83  Linux

Note that /dev/sda2 isn't a real partition, but the extended, containing
the "real meat" /dev/sda5. This one is an encrypted Luks partition (in
my case), which then is subdivided by LVM into /, /usr, /var, /home.

What does that buy you? Well, you can, with enough care, resize your
partitions within LVM after the fact [1] (you can even add a second
hard disk and allot some or all of its space to one of the existing
volumes).

For me, the nicest part is that I can have all my separate partitions
encrypted in one fell swoop.

> P.S. a wise person admits his ignorance.

;-)

regards

[1] You have to take care of the file systems: before modifying the
  partition when shrinking, after when growing. Growing is typically
  painless and low risk and can be achieved on-line (i.e. while the
  file system is mounted), shrinking can typically only be done
  off-line (for ext4 this is so).

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Re: new pc and swap

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 31/10/2016 à 19:45, Greg Wooledge a écrit :

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 01:27:22PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

  primary
  extended
  logical

Whither goest LVM?


1) Use GPT partitioning and get rid of this obsolete distinction between 
primary, extended and logical partition.


2) LVM can use any type of block device as a "container" (physical 
volume, or PV) : partitions, RAID arrays, encrypted volumes...



Under LVM, you create two (or more, but usually two) *real* partitions:
say, sda1 and sda1.


That looks like the same one partition.


 The first partition (sda1) is just formatted using
a straight file system, used for /boot.


As discussed in other messages in this thread, a separate partition with 
a plain filesystem for /boot is not always required.



 The other partition (sda2)
is not given a file system; instead, it is turned into a Volume Group
(VG)


No, a Physical Volume (PV). Then you create a VG on top of one or 
several PV.



Typically you perform your LVM installation by setting up the file systems
and swap partitions (created on LVs) using minimum sizes, and leave most
of the VG unused.


I would not be as extreme as you, and just advise to leave enough free 
space in the VG for future LV growth or creation. Some filesystems such 
as the ext family come with a fixed number of "inodes" (each file or 
directory consumes one inode) which depends on the initial size by 
default, and cannot be increased even when the filesystem size is 
extended. So a filesystem with minimal size may have too few inodes for 
its lifetime.


Unfortunately, the Debian installer does exactly the opposite in 
assisted mode : beside assigning insane sizes to the logical volumes, it 
allocates all the available space in the VG, making it harder to resize 
logical volumes later.

Re: new pc and swap

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 31/10/2016 à 14:54, Stefan Monnier a écrit :


Of course, it's possible.  But if you setup a system from scratch I'd
highly recommend you put "everything" into an LVM volume group so you
can then use an LVM volume for swap rather than a file (but with the
same advantages as using a file: it's easy to resize/create on-demand
at run-time).


I second that suggestion.
(am I an LVM fanboy ? Hmm, maybe)


PS: I put "everything" between quotes because I'm not sure I'd recommend
to also put /boot in an LVM volume.  IIUC it can be made to work
nowadays, but my systems still use a two-partition setup: one small
partition for /boot, and the rest for LVM.


GRUB 2 can read LVM, so it can boot a system with /boot in LVM. I have 
used this kind of setup. The advantage is that you don't need a separate 
partition for /boot and that it provides all the benefits of LVM to 
/boot. I don't know about LILO nor any other bootloader.


However, if the LVM structure gets corrupted and GRUB cannot read it, 
then the boot process will fail before the boot menu. If /boot is on a 
separate partition which can be read, then the boot will fail only after 
loading and running the kernel and the initramfs. So the initramfs debug 
shell is still available to investigate and try to repair the issue 
without requiring to boot another system.


Also, with BIOS/legacy boot, putting /boot in LVM requires that GRUB's 
core image (boot sector) is installed in the disk boot sector (aka MBR, 
not in a partition boot sector) and GRUB's core image is installed in 
the "embedded area" on a DOS-style disk or in a dedicated "BIOS 
boot"/bios_grub partition on a GPT-style disk (not as a regular file in 
/boot/grub).

Re: new pc and swap

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 01:27:22PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> To paraphrase Julius Caesar:
> omnia disci en tres partes est:
>   primary
>   extended
>   logical
> 
> Whither goest LVM?

LVM is a more flexible alternative to using a set of fixed-sized
partitions.

Under LVM, you create two (or more, but usually two) *real* partitions:
say, sda1 and sda1.  The first partition (sda1) is just formatted using
a straight file system, used for /boot.  The other partition (sda2)
is not given a file system; instead, it is turned into a Volume Group
(VG), which is sort of like a virtual disk.

Within the VG you have a whole bunch of "slices" or "physical extents"
(PE), each one being some fixed size like 4 MB or 16 MB.  The whole VG
therefore contains however many thousand PE make up the physical space.

When you want to actually use the disk, you create a "logical volume" (LV)
out of however many PEs you need.  If you're creating a 1 GB file system
for a disk with 4 MB PEs, then your new LV would consist of 256 PEs.
These don't have to be contiguous.  Once the LV is created, it is usable
just like a partition.  You can format it with a file system, and mount
it, and put files on it.  Or format it for swap, or whatever.

Typically you perform your LVM installation by setting up the file systems
and swap partitions (created on LVs) using minimum sizes, and leave most
of the VG unused.

Later, if you realize you need to increase the size of /usr by 8 GB,
you just increase the size of its LV (assigning some more PEs to it,
even if they're not contiguous to the original set), and then increase
the size of the file system to match.  With most unix-like file systems,
this doesn't require any down time (unmounting) at all.

Re: new pc and swap

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/31/2016 8:54 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

I once read that it was possible to swap to a named file, rather
than a swap partition.  Is that possible with Jessie?


Of course, it's possible.  But if you setup a system from scratch I'd
highly recommend you put "everything" into an LVM volume group so you
can then use an LVM volume for swap rather than a file (but with the
same advantages as using a file: it's easy to resize/create on-demand
at run-time).


 Stefan


PS: I put "everything" between quotes because I'm not sure I'd recommend
 to also put /boot in an LVM volume.  IIUC it can be made to work
 nowadays, but my systems still use a two-partition setup: one small
 partition for /boot, and the rest for LVM.




HUH! U lost me ;/
To paraphrase Julius Caesar:
omnia disci en tres partes est:
  primary
  extended
  logical

Whither goest LVM?

I'm so lost as to not be able to ask an answerable question.
Help please ;/
TIA

P.S. a wise person admits his ignorance.

Re: new pc and swap

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> I once read that it was possible to swap to a named file, rather
>>> than a swap partition.  Is that possible with Jessie?

Of course, it's possible.  But if you setup a system from scratch I'd
highly recommend you put "everything" into an LVM volume group so you
can then use an LVM volume for swap rather than a file (but with the
same advantages as using a file: it's easy to resize/create on-demand
at run-time).


Stefan


PS: I put "everything" between quotes because I'm not sure I'd recommend
to also put /boot in an LVM volume.  IIUC it can be made to work
nowadays, but my systems still use a two-partition setup: one small
partition for /boot, and the rest for LVM.

Re: new pc and swap

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/30/2016 9:15 AM, Nicolas George wrote:

Le nonidi 9 brumaire, an CCXXV, Richard Owlett a écrit :

I once read that it was possible to swap to a named file, rather than a swap
partition.
Is that possible with Jessie?


Please check: fallocate, mkswap, swapon, and tell us the result.

Regards,



As I don't have a functioning Debian system at the moment
and
As https://manpages.debian.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi remains *DOWN* :{
I tried https://manned.org/pkg/debian-jessie as it _appeared_ to 
index all _current_ Debian manpages without success.
There were no hits in 
https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=all=all=any=names=...

Fell back to the GENERIC https://manned.org/browse/search?q=...
That tells me swap files have existed in the past and they all 
effectively say "Beware. Here dragons have laird here." ;/


Does not answer the question I posed.
Markus' post indicates swap files may be unreliable for 
hibernation, my only likely use.
I've seen posts on multiple fora suggesting hibernation is the 
only use that will absolutely require swap. That routine use does 
not tend to require swap.

Re: new pc and swap

[David Christensen]

On 10/30/2016 04:56 AM, Pol Hallen wrote:
> I bought a new notebook: i7 2.2Ghz, 8Gb ram and ssd 256Gb.
> 
> Consider that small disk, can I install debian without swap? Does swap
> still useful?

For my SOHO LAN environment, I build my Debian Wheezy systems on a 16 GB
SSD with 10% over-provisioning [1].  The installer defaults to MBR
partitioning [2], which is what I prefer.  Here are my notes from the
last laptop build:

Partitioning method manual

partition #1
size0.5 GB
typeprimary
locationbeginning
use as  ext4
format  yes
mount point /boot
mount options   defaults
label   t7400_boot
reserved blocks 5%
typical usage   standard
bootable flag   on

partition #2
size0.5 GB
typeprimary
locationbeginning
use as  physical volume for encryption
encrypt method  device-mapper
encryption  aes
key size256
IV algorithmxts-plain64
encryption method   random key
erase data  yes
bootable flag   off

partition #3
size13.4 GB
typeprimary
locationbeginning
use as  physical volume for encryption
encrypt method  device-mapper
encryption  aes
key size256
IV algorithmxts-plain64
encryption method   Passphrase
erase data  yes
bootable flag   off

Encrypted volume (sdb3_crypt)  - 13.4 GB Linux device-mapper
use as  ext4
mount point /
mount options   defaults
label   t7400_root
reserved blocks 5%
typical usage   standard


The only thing I'd change today would be "Encrypted volume (sdb3_crypt)"
-> "use as btrfs".


I have run systems without swap in the past, but found that they crashed
when memory usage was heavy.


When a workstation system drive is an SSD larger than 16 GB, I often
create a "scratch" partition with 90% of the remaining space that I can
use for applications that create large temporary directories/ files
(such as the 'Lives' video editor).


I put my "bulk" data on a file server with TB+ HDD's.


This works great when I'm at home, but not so great when I go remote
with my laptop.  Solution ideas include:

1.  VPN.

2.  A FOSS equivalent of Microsoft's Offline Files/Client Side Caching:

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues/2009/99/Offline-FS



David


[1]
http://www.edn.com/design/systems-design/4404566/Understanding-SSD-over-provisioning

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_partitioning

Re: new pc and swap

[Markus Grunwald]

Servus Pascal,

> > I once read that it was possible to swap to a named file, rather than a
> > swap partition.
> > Is that possible with Jessie?

Creating (and using) a swapfile is easy, no problem in Jessie:

sudo mkswap /swap.0
sudo swapon /swap.0
grep swap /etc/fstab
/swap.0 swapswapdefaults0

> Swap to a file is possible but IIRC hibernate to a file is not possible.

It is. In fact, I do it on my machine. Configuring it is not so easy,
but again: google is your friend.

Unfortunately, a few weeks ago, hibernating stopped working reliably
here. I wrote to this list a few days ago, without any response :(

So, hibernating to a swapfile (or a separate hibernation file) is
possible, but it doesn't seem to be a good idea. I would recommend a
swap partition. On my T61 with 4GB RAM and 128GB SSD, I have a 5GB
swapfile. As gparted works very reliably, misjudging the size of the
partition is only a small problem...

So I consider switching from swapfile to a swappartition.

cu
--
Markus Grunwald

Re: new pc and swap

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 30/10/2016 à 17:41, Ben Caradoc-Davies a écrit :

RAM disks (tmpfs)


Tmpfs and ramdisks are very different.
A tmpfs is a filesystem in virtual memory (in RAM or swap) with variable 
size.

A ramdisk is a block device (not a filesystem) in RAM with fixed size.

Re: new pc and swap

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 31/10/16 00:56, Pol Hallen wrote:

I bought a new notebook: i7 2.2Ghz, 8Gb ram and ssd 256Gb.
Consider that small disk, can I install debian without swap? Does swap
still useful?


I have not used swap since I switched to SSDs in 2009. This works only 
if you are confident that you will never use all your RAM. Even with use 
of RAM disks (tmpfs), I have never run out of RAM.


Avoiding swap on an SSD reduces wear.

Some memory hungry applications like GIMP use their own scheme for 
storing tiles on disk to avoid excessive use of RAM.


How much RAM do you typically use?

Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: new pc and swap

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 30/10/2016 à 15:11, Richard Owlett a écrit :

On 10/30/2016 8:52 AM, Markus Grunwald wrote:


It migh be. Don't forget that you need some swap space if you want to
hibernate your System!


I once read that it was possible to swap to a named file, rather than a
swap partition.
Is that possible with Jessie?


Swap to a file is possible but IIRC hibernate to a file is not possible.

Re: new pc and swap

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/30/2016 8:52 AM, Markus Grunwald wrote:

Hello Pol,


Does swap still useful?


It migh be. Don't forget that you need some swap space if you want to
hibernate your System!

(You can configure extra hibernation space. I never managed to get
that right...)



I once read that it was possible to swap to a named file, rather 
than a swap partition.

Is that possible with Jessie?

Re: new pc and swap

[Markus Grunwald]

Hello Pol,

> Does swap still useful?

It migh be. Don't forget that you need some swap space if you want to
hibernate your System!

(You can configure extra hibernation space. I never managed to get
that right...)

--
Markus Grunwald

Re: new pc and swap

[Michael Milliman]

On 10/30/2016 06:56 AM, Pol Hallen wrote:

Good sunday to all :-)

I bought a new notebook: i7 2.2Ghz, 8Gb ram and ssd 256Gb.

Consider that small disk, can I install debian without swap? Does swap 
still useful?
Yes, debian can be installed without swap.  Whether swap is useful 
depends on the usage you are planning on putting the machine to.  In 
some cases, swap is of great benefit; in others, not much use at all.  I 
load my machine up pretty heavy, and rarely use the swap space I have 
set up, and usually when I do get into swap space, I can slim down what 
I've got running and get back out of swap.  If you are planning on using 
hibernate, then swap is needed (I almost never use that; I usually just 
suspend to ram).  If you are planning on using several memory intensive 
applications all at the same time, then swap can be useful.  If not, not 
so much.


Hope this helps some.:-)


thanks for advices! :)

Pol



--
73's
Mike, WB5VQX

new pc and swap

[Pol Hallen]

Good sunday to all :-)

I bought a new notebook: i7 2.2Ghz, 8Gb ram and ssd 256Gb.

Consider that small disk, can I install debian without swap? Does swap 
still useful?


thanks for advices! :)

Pol