No wonder

[Tong]

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:38:26 +0100, Ken Gilmour wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT), Tong Sun wrote:
>> Ok, trying again, posting from yahaoo directly...
>>
>> Subject: Re: urgent help
>> Newsgroups:  gmane.linux.debian.user Date:Sat, 07 Aug 2004
>> 15:17:17 -0400
>>
>> Why, oh, why, the following message didn't get through the mlist yet
>> again. I first thought it might because of subject wording, now
>> perhaps the wording of message body?
>>
>> Anyone else here is posting via the gmane service?
> 
> 
> Probably because everything thinks you are spam... here is what my 
> server thinks...
> 
> X-Spam-Flag: YES
> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on *a top secret
> super atomic server*
> X-Spam-Level: 
> X-Spam-Status: Yes, hits=8.3 required=4.7 tests=FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD,
> FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,FROM_HAS_ULINE_NUMS,NIGERIAN_SUBJECT2 
> autolearn=no
> version=2.63
> X-Spam-Report:
> *  0.9 FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS From: ends in numbers
> *  2.8 NIGERIAN_SUBJECT2 Subject is indicative of a Nigerian 
> spam
> *  2.5 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 
> 'Received' headers
> *  2.2 FROM_HAS_ULINE_NUMS From: contains an underline and 
> numbers/letters

FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,FROM_HAS_ULINE_NUMS should be quite
common. I think it is NIGERIAN_SUBJECT2 that pushed my message over the
edge. 

Thanks for the info. I'll stay away  from that d**m subject from now on. :-)




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Re: no wonder... part 2

[Oki DZ]

On 8 Apr 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> (base-system + essential packages, and are now installing 
> more according to our needs...)

An inquiring mind wants to know...
Does your "more" include the X Window System...?

Oki

Re: no wonder...

[Oki DZ]

On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Engelen wrote:
> Apt is cool for web-installs and installing something when you exactly know
> what package you want installed.

If you have the CDs and a web server, you can change your sources.list
to point to the server; then you'd get a web-install environment. 
(I don't have the CDs, but I did the same thing with apt-move; it worked
well. Since apt-move "generates" directories that mirror the CDs, I think 
there shouldn't be any problem with CDs.)
 
> Actually I use Slink-with-a-bit potato. 

OT a bit; do you have any problem with ftp? (PAM to be exact.) I did mix
and match on slink and potato, the ftpd wouldn't work. Then I reinstalled
potato (from floppies), then apt-get upgrade, apt-get update, apt-get
install wu-ftpd, voila, the ftp server worked well. 

Oki



 

RE: no wonder...

[Lehel Bernadt]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2000, Christian Pernegger wrote:
> > Why don't you debianize the package or create a fake one that provides the
> > debian-package equivalent of what you locally installed ?
> 
> Ah, I should have known there is a proper way to do this. This had briefly
> occured to me, but I've never ever created a package... any pointers besides
> www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/packaging.html ? Something more in HOWTO
> style, perhaps?

AFAIK there are 2 packages that can help you to
create debs: dh-make and debmake. For dh-make there is a tutorial at
www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide. For debmake you can read the docs in
/usr/doc/debmake.
 
> However, these are developers' solutions - don't you think this should be
> possible on the "user level"?

But how do we define "user level" ? If you had installed the system and you
are managing it, then you aren't a simple user anymore.
Besides, creating a package is not so hard as it seems.

> Or is there a script just to create such fakes? Have I just RT wrong FMs?

The  equivs package can help you to create these "provides-only"
packages.

RE: no wonder...

[Christian Pernegger]

> > A package state that tells the package managers that "the functionality of
> > this package is provided locally, treat it as if it was installed"
> 
> Look into the equivs package. Or, dive into the docs and see how to make
> a [empty] package (you really only need 4 or 5 files and a few
> directories...)

Ok, gonna try...

> > An option to reset the selection status of all packages to their actual
> > status
> 
> As you know, dselect displays three status fields to the left of the
> package name.

Yep

> 'R' (that's an uppercase R) will reset the selection
> status to that of the middle indicator.

I wasn't clear on as to what exactly it resets to - thanks!

> By pressing 'ooO' (or some
> number of upper and lowercase o's), you can get the package listing
> sorted by only status (the leftmost indicator). Using '+' on the
> "Installed packages" line, '-' on the "Removed packages" line, and '_'
> on the "Purged packages" line will reset everything to the state of the
> leftmost indicator (modulo any conflicts, deal with them appropriately).

Should do. Thank you very much.

(Still a bit ... tedious, though)

Christian

RE: no wonder...

[Christian Pernegger]

> > 
> >
> > A package state that tells the package managers that "the functionality of
> > this package is provided locally, treat it as if it was installed"
>
> Why don't you debianize the package or create a fake one that provides the
> debian-package equivalent of what you locally installed ?

Ah, I should have known there is a proper way to do this. This had briefly
occured to me, but I've never ever created a package... any pointers besides
www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/packaging.html ? Something more in HOWTO
style, perhaps?

However, these are developers' solutions - don't you think this should be
possible on the "user level"?

Or is there a script just to create such fakes? Have I just RT wrong FMs?

Christian

Re: no wonder...

[Brad]

On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:34:23PM +0200, Christian Pernegger wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> A package state that tells the package managers that "the functionality of
> this package is provided locally, treat it as if it was installed"

Look into the equivs package. Or, dive into the docs and see how to make
a [empty] package (you really only need 4 or 5 files and a few
directories...)

> An option to reset the selection status of all packages to their actual
> status

As you know, dselect displays three status fields to the left of the
package name. 'R' (that's an uppercase R) will reset the selection
status to that of the middle indicator. By pressing 'ooO' (or some
number of upper and lowercase o's), you can get the package listing
sorted by only status (the leftmost indicator). Using '+' on the
"Installed packages" line, '-' on the "Removed packages" line, and '_'
on the "Purged packages" line will reset everything to the state of the
leftmost indicator (modulo any conflicts, deal with them appropriately).


-- 
  finger for GPG public key.


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Description: PGP signature

RE: no wonder...

[Lehel Bernadt]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2000, Christian Pernegger wrote:
> What I don't like about apt/dselect is how they treat packages locally
> compiled from source tarball. I couldn't find an option to really ignore
> dependencies and do what I say.
> 
> Specifically, if I want "esound-alsa" but have compiled the ALSA
> drivers/libs/utils myself, neither dselect nor apt let me install it
> because it depends on some ALSA packages. Now, there is a [Q] option
> explained in the conflict resolution screen which should retain the exact
> state I select - only it doesn't work as expected or even
> deterministically.
> 
> 1) It drops me back at conflict resolution, with its "suggestions"
> selected again
> 2) The main menu appears. If I select install, it wants to remove all of
> gnome!
> 
> Perhaps I could get the deb manually and install via dpkg and a few force
> options, but that's hardly optimal...
> 
> 
> 
> A package state that tells the package managers that "the functionality of
> this package is provided locally, treat it as if it was installed"

Why don't you debianize the package or create a fake one that provides the
debian-package equivalent of what you locally installed ?

Re: no wonder...

[wganz]

> You've not answered the question.

Apologies in advance for sending an attachment to a mailing list but didn't
want to delay in creating an HTML file.

This is based on what I saw for RedHat 6.1 for some of their screens.

Regards,

Will
<>

RE: no wonder...

[Christian Pernegger]

>   Not really; the whole thing is presented as a problem but it doesn't
show
> you clearly what it's done to try to resolve it, nor does it let you
> accept/reject some of those changes in "blocks".  Simple example.. I
> selected gnome-admin for install, and I get a conflict screen which
looks
> approximately as follows:
>
> EIOM Pri Section  Package  Description
>   _* Opt admingnome-admin  Gnome Admin Utilities (gulp and logview)
>   _* Opt libs libobgnome0  Objective-C - Gnome bindings
>   _* Opt libs libobgtk1Objective-C - Gtk bindings
>
> ==
>
> gnome-admin  not installed -  ;  install (was: purge).  Optional
> gnome-admin depends on libobgnome0 (>= 1.0.40)
> gnome-admin depends on libobgtk1 (>= 1.0.40)
>
>   It shows this if the cursor bar is over gnome-admin itself.  The thing
is,
> it's not really clearly presented to you what dselect has decided.  In
this
> case, it's just installing 2 more packages, but even that isn't clearly
> obvious, despite the flags... to say nothing if the changes had been
greater
> (including recommends and conflicts).

What I don't like about apt/dselect is how they treat packages locally
compiled from source tarball. I couldn't find an option to really ignore
dependencies and do what I say.

Specifically, if I want "esound-alsa" but have compiled the ALSA
drivers/libs/utils myself, neither dselect nor apt let me install it
because it depends on some ALSA packages. Now, there is a [Q] option
explained in the conflict resolution screen which should retain the exact
state I select - only it doesn't work as expected or even
deterministically.

1) It drops me back at conflict resolution, with its "suggestions"
selected again
2) The main menu appears. If I select install, it wants to remove all of
gnome!

Perhaps I could get the deb manually and install via dpkg and a few force
options, but that's hardly optimal...



A package state that tells the package managers that "the functionality of
this package is provided locally, treat it as if it was installed"

An option to reset the selection status of all packages to their actual
status



Maybe I just didn't read enough docs...

Christian


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Re: no wonder...

[Engelen]

> > >  My mileage varies. I find that the program simplifies what can be a
> > > vastly more difficult process... that of tracking dependencies,
versions,
> > > file locations, etc, etc... It does it
> > > fairly well and it does it accurately.
>
>   Which doesn't explain why there is a project to create a better
top-level
> package management tool called "apt"? :)

Apt is cool for web-installs and installing something when you exactly know
what package you want installed.

Actually I use Slink-with-a-bit potato. I have Slink CD's. What I did is put
potato-lines in my sources.list and still use the multi-CD method for
dselect.
Now when I want to install something slink, I use dselect, but when I want
to install something potato, I use apt.

> > I think the problem in dselect that it doesn't show the dependency tree.
> > The listing of the packages is useful, of course, but it's just a list.
>
>   Agreed; it's a plain list, which can be viewed in various ways.  What I
> think would be better would be the ability to collapse parts of the list
> that you're not viewing, like a directory tree.
>   Then you come to the actual conflict resolution part.  Possibly it'd be
> great if it could detect these conflicts in real-time (I guess this might
> not be trivial or speedy to implement), and prompt you.
>   For example, you select a package and it pops up saying "This package
also
> requires: foo bar baz wibble snafu... do you wish to install them as well
or
> cancel installation of xyz?" This lets you select/cancel the whole
operation

Excuse me for being puzzled here, but is this not what already happens?

For example, say I want to install foo which depends on bar and baz. I'll
walk to 'foo', press +, get some documentation screen that my manual advised
me not to read (it'd confuse me further). I press space to send it away.

Now there is a very small list with foo on top and bar and baz underneath.
The lower half of the screen tells me 'foo depends on bar' and 'foo depends
on baz', and before the names of bar and baz are '_*', which means that they
weren't installed first but now I probably want to have them installed. So
when
I want the dependancies installed to, I just press enter. When I want to
back
out, I just make sure the '_*' turn into '__' and the '*-' (conflicting
packages)
turn into '**' again, and press enter.

This takes a little getting-used-to, but it isn't _that_ hard imo? I just
remember
+ means install, - means remove, _ means purge and 'enter' means 'OK it's
right this way'. And 'damn-this-isn't-what-I-meant' is Ctrl-C.

It could be better, but dselect just works fine for me.

Arnout
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: no wonder...

[loki]

On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:02:40AM +, Richard  Taylor wrote:

>  Ummm... how does your dselect work? Mine does pretty much what you've 
> described above.

  Not really; the whole thing is presented as a problem but it doesn't show
you clearly what it's done to try to resolve it, nor does it let you
accept/reject some of those changes in "blocks".  Simple example.. I
selected gnome-admin for install, and I get a conflict screen which looks
approximately as follows:

EIOM Pri Section  Package  Description
  _* Opt admingnome-admin  Gnome Admin Utilities (gulp and logview)
  _* Opt libs libobgnome0  Objective-C - Gnome bindings
  _* Opt libs libobgtk1Objective-C - Gtk bindings

==

gnome-admin  not installed -  ;  install (was: purge).  Optional
gnome-admin depends on libobgnome0 (>= 1.0.40)
gnome-admin depends on libobgtk1 (>= 1.0.40)

  It shows this if the cursor bar is over gnome-admin itself.  The thing is,
it's not really clearly presented to you what dselect has decided.  In this
case, it's just installing 2 more packages, but even that isn't clearly
obvious, despite the flags... to say nothing if the changes had been greater
(including recommends and conflicts).  It's easier to read the changes if
dselect simply states something like the following:

gnome-admin requires the following extra packages to be installed:
  libobgnome0 libobgtk1
it recommends the following, which I shall also install:
  foo baz

gnome-admin conflicts with the following packages:
   foobar1

  The idea is to skip relatively unimportant details (most of the time) like
the priority, the section and possibly even the description.. at least from
the top half.  You could make it so that you can go from package to package
in the above (ie. from libobgnome0 to libobgtk1 etc.) much like moving
between hyperlinks in lynx, and display the typical package info as (like in
the selection screen) as you do, underneath.  Have one key (+/-, if you
like) that you can use to add/remove each proposed change.  For each type,
if the user's change could be bad (remove dependency pkg, add conflict pkg)
it could warn and prompt the user for confirmation of whether they really
want to do that.  Naturally, there would also be a single key to just accept
all dselect's proposed changes (like now).
  And this is just a rough change that I think could present the choices
better and make it clearer what is happening... I haven't thought really
carefully about how it could be done, but I'm sure it could be done better..
other people might have other suggestions on how it could be improved.
  Is dselect usable?  Yes.  But it could be better at abstracting away some
of the details that are typically not necessary and which just serve to
intimidate new users.  Certainly that information should be available, but I
think a lot of it belongs in the package description window most of the
time. No need for flames BTW, this is just an opinion offered as food for
thought.



-- 
loki
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dare I disturb the universe?  You bet I do! :)

no wonder... part 2

[pumpkins]

No wonder we found Debian difficult for us:
We're just newbies!

So then we tried installing Debian again, and after carefully 
making our steps... we finally managed to install it!
(base-system + essential packages, and are now installing 
more according to our needs...)

We're really getting the hang of it all: using dselect, apt-get,
dpkg, etc...

Anyway, THANK YOU SO MUCH, EVERYBODY... for all your support, 
your help, your sarcastic remarks and replys... EVERYTHING!

Hope we can be part of "the Debians"... :-)

Cheers!

I Gede Wijaya S.
Urip Hudiono
Yosi Yonata

Bandung, Indonesia

Re: no wonder...

[Richard Taylor]

On 4/7/2000, 10:00:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding Re: no 
wonder...:
>  > What could be more intuitive?

> Something that works. Your statement highlights the reason that when I 
ask
> for directions on how to drive somewhere, I will NOT ask someone that has
> lived there all their life but a relative new person. The person that has
> been there for all of their life _ASS_U_ME_s that you know what they 
learned
> several years ago.

 You've not answered the question.

Re: no wonder...

[Richard Taylor]

On 4/7/2000, 10:56:59 PM, "loki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding 
Re: no wonder...:
> On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:48:18AM +0700, Oki DZ wrote:
> > On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Richard  Taylor wrote:
> > >  My mileage varies. I find that the program simplifies what can be a
> > > vastly more difficult process... that of tracking dependencies, versions,
> > > file locations, etc, etc... It does it
> > > fairly well and it does it accurately.

>   Which doesn't explain why there is a project to create a better 
top-level
> package management tool called "apt"? :)

 No, it doesn't. Dselect works with apt as far as I know. Nothing's so 
perfect it can't be improved.

> > I think the problem in dselect that it doesn't show the dependency tree.
> > The listing of the packages is useful, of course, but it's just a list.

>   Agreed; it's a plain list, which can be viewed in various ways.  What I
> think would be better would be the ability to collapse parts of the list
> that you're not viewing, like a directory tree.
 
 That would be a help as well as filters...

>   Then you come to the actual conflict resolution part.  Possibly it'd be
> great if it could detect these conflicts in real-time (I guess this might
> not be trivial or speedy to implement), and prompt you.
>   For example, you select a package and it pops up saying "This package 
also
> requires: foo bar baz wibble snafu... do you wish to install them as well 
or
> cancel installation of xyz?" This lets you select/cancel the whole 
operation
> (and it is one operation really, after all.. people just say "grr.. need
> that as well.. alright" so it's not really an independent choice anyway.)
> For conflicts, "This package conflicts with the following: foo baz.  Do 
you
> wish to proceed (removing those packages), or cancel this install? [y/n]"

 Ummm... how does your dselect work? Mine does pretty much what you've 
described above.

>   Recommendations and suggestions are a little more difficult (since it's
> something people are more likely to pick and choose over) but still quite
> doable and could be simpler IMO.

 Also already implemented.

Re: no wonder...

[Chanop Silpa-Anan]

Once upon a time, I heard [EMAIL PROTECTED] say

> Another thing that would be very helpful (and perhaps it exists and I
> just have not yet found it) would be an easy way to just back up to
> where one was a moment before, but not all the way to the beginning. 
> So, say you see a package on the list that you think you might like to
> install, and so you hit the + key.  Then you find that it requires
> about 300 other packages that you don't have installed, and some of
> them conflict with others that you do have installed and are more
> important to you than this new one that you just decided to try.  What
> you would like would be a sort of a back button or an undo that would
> just back-step one step at a time.
just "X" when the confict screen appear :), Other options is "Q"


chanop
-- 
,-.
| Chanop Silpa-Anan  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |
| Australian National University  |
| Tel. +61 2 6279 8826, +61 2 6279 8837 (office hour) |
|  +61 2 6249 5240 (home +voice mail) |
|   Debian GNU/BSDICQ uin 11366301|
`-'


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Re: no wonder...

[Chanop Silpa-Anan]

Once upon a time, I heard John Hasler say

> Before proceeding to install and remove marked packages dselect (and
> aptitude) should put up a menu listing all the proposed changes and
> offering the user the choice of
For dselect,
> Proceed to install and remove marked packages
Select  3. [I]nstall Install and upgrade wanted packages.
or apt-get dselect-install
> Edit the changes
Reselect  2. [S]elect  Request which packages you want on your
system.
> Reverse all the marks and start over
I'm you can't do that if you alread exit select menu to main menu. But
if you are still in select menu. "X" would be your friend (note capital
X)
> Exit without altering the database
Isn't this the same thing as above?

Chanop
-- 
,-.
| Chanop Silpa-Anan  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |
| Australian National University  |
| Tel. +61 2 6279 8826, +61 2 6279 8837 (office hour) |
|  +61 2 6249 5240 (home +voice mail) |
|   Debian GNU/BSDICQ uin 11366301|
`-'


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Description: PGP signature

Re: no wonder...

[loki]

On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:48:18AM +0700, Oki DZ wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Richard  Taylor wrote:
> >  My mileage varies. I find that the program simplifies what can be a 
> > vastly more difficult process... that of tracking dependencies, versions, 
> > file locations, etc, etc... It does it
> > fairly well and it does it accurately.

  Which doesn't explain why there is a project to create a better top-level
package management tool called "apt"? :)

> I think the problem in dselect that it doesn't show the dependency tree.
> The listing of the packages is useful, of course, but it's just a list.

  Agreed; it's a plain list, which can be viewed in various ways.  What I
think would be better would be the ability to collapse parts of the list
that you're not viewing, like a directory tree.
  Then you come to the actual conflict resolution part.  Possibly it'd be
great if it could detect these conflicts in real-time (I guess this might
not be trivial or speedy to implement), and prompt you.
  For example, you select a package and it pops up saying "This package also
requires: foo bar baz wibble snafu... do you wish to install them as well or
cancel installation of xyz?" This lets you select/cancel the whole operation
(and it is one operation really, after all.. people just say "grr.. need
that as well.. alright" so it's not really an independent choice anyway.)
For conflicts, "This package conflicts with the following: foo baz.  Do you
wish to proceed (removing those packages), or cancel this install? [y/n]"
  Recommendations and suggestions are a little more difficult (since it's
something people are more likely to pick and choose over) but still quite
doable and could be simpler IMO.
  Even if we don't do it real time, we could let people see the conflict
list better (it's not very obvious what is happening there), by grouping
what packages are required by existing choices etc.  A number of times I've
been unsure of exactly what requires what and how I should resolve it, and
just ended up cancelling the lot and starting from scratch due to just one
change I'm confused about.
  Just to forestall the "if you want it write it yourself" and "We're
volunteers, don't complain" flames: I appreciate it all, I just think it can
be improved too :)  If I understood all Debian's package flags better, I
might have a crack at it myself some time.



-- 
loki
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dare I disturb the universe?  You bet I do! :)

Re: no wonder...

[Jeff Gordon]

On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:41:56PM -0500, Kent West wrote:

> 1. Nothing's difficult about selecting things from a menu. It's when those 
> selections
> bring up other screens wanting to add/delete other things, which affect other 
> things,
> which makes the user want to get out, and none of the keystrokes seem to work 
> like a
> beginner (not someone who has read the docs and EXPERIENCED the experience) 
> would
> expect. There's just a host of things that are difficult about deselect and 
> apt.
> There's a host of good about these products also; they're just not intuitive 
> for the
> non-initiated.

Hi--I'm semi-initiated now but still find it puzzling, confusing,
frustrating and non-intuitive, when I tell dselect, no thanks, I don't
want that spelling dictionary you say I need, and dselect then informs
me, okay, it's about to remove Mutt, then -- not quite the outcome I
was going for :-)

-- 

 -- Jeff --   

 "There's nothing left in the world to prove.  All that's worth doing
  is to love one another, using whatever means are available to serve."

Re: no wonder...

[wganz]

>> which makes the user want to get out, and none of the keystrokes seem to
work like a
>> beginner (not someone who has read the docs and EXPERIENCED the
experience) would
>> expect. There's just a host of things that are difficult about deselect
and apt.

AMEN!  I just reformated the HD with Debian and am going to try again. All
due to the dselect NOT installing what I want. I enter the path to the HD
partition that has the entire Debian CD on it and it is mounted and it STILL
refuses to load. I do highlight the package that I want and press the bloody
"+" key and I go add the bloody dependent packages and it still flipping
doesn't load Jack Squat much less Perl.

I do not profess to be Linux guru with only 4 Linux installs on my home
machines but am willing to match IQ points with any of you out there. There
has to be a better way.


>> There's a host of good about these products also; they're just not
intuitive for the
>> non-initiated.

 > What could be more intuitive?

Something that works. Your statement highlights the reason that when I ask
for directions on how to drive somewhere, I will NOT ask someone that has
lived there all their life but a relative new person. The person that has
been there for all of their life _ASS_U_ME_s that you know what they learned
several years ago.

More intuitive is relevant  How intuitive is the IVP rate for Furosemide on
a CHF/COPD pt b/n PRBC units or what lab value to watch before giving? Hint:
it is a diuretic.

And yes I have bought & read the f manual(ORA's cow book) & it still doesn't
work as advertised. dselect's interface needs work, NOT the logic.

Re: no wonder...

[John Hasler]

Oki writes:
> But of course, it has to be followed up with explanations of the things
> that could be improved, or at least with something that the complainer
> would like to have or see.

Before proceeding to install and remove marked packages dselect (and
aptitude) should put up a menu listing all the proposed changes and
offering the user the choice of

Proceed to install and remove marked packages
Edit the changes
Reverse all the marks and start over
Exit without altering the database
-- 
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin

Re: no wonder...

[dmacdoug]

On  7 Apr, Kent West wrote:
> Richard Taylor wrote:
> 
>> On 4/6/2000, 9:03:41 PM, Oki DZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding Re:
>> no
>> > On 5 Apr 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> > > No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult
>> > > Unix-clone distro to install and use...
>> > ...
>> > > Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite
>> > > difficult to use...
>>
>>  As compared to something like... say... notepad?
>>
>>  What's difficult about selecting things from a menu?
> 
> I really shouldn't add to the noise on this thread, but I'm going to anyway.
> 
> 1. Nothing's difficult about selecting things from a menu. It's when those 
> selections
> bring up other screens wanting to add/delete other things, which affect other 
> things,
> which makes the user want to get out, and none of the keystrokes seem to work 
> like a
> beginner (not someone who has read the docs and EXPERIENCED the experience) 
> would
> expect. There's just a host of things that are difficult about deselect and 
> apt.
> There's a host of good about these products also; they're just not intuitive 
> for the
> non-initiated.
> 


I agree that this probably isn't the most appropriate forum for
discussing ways to improve on dselect but, like Kent West, since this is
where this thread has been developing, I will have my say on it here as
well.

I now use dselect quite a bit and think it is wonderfully capable and
helpful and is probably one of the best things about debian, but it
wasn't always so.  When I first tried to use it I was to the point of
accusing it of being a work of the devil.  So, let me suggest what I
think are the biggest problems with it for the beginner.

I think the biggest problem may also be the simplest to remedy, and
that is that the help menu on keystrokes is too cryptic and isn't out
where you can see it when you need it the most.  The very most
important keystrokes are buried down at the bottom, and probably have
not been memorized by the beginner before he begins, namely, X, Esc and
R.  The beginner needs to be fully aware of these and the need to back
out if he gets in over his head, before he is committed beyond 
redemption.  A more verbose list of commands with some of the more
important ones a little more prominent would be very helpful to the
beginner and if it were possible to have the commands listed on the
screen at the same time as one is attempting to use the commands rather
than having to memorize them or write them down, that would be even
more helpful.

Another thing that would be very helpful (and perhaps it exists and I
just have not yet found it) would be an easy way to just back up to
where one was a moment before, but not all the way to the beginning. 
So, say you see a package on the list that you think you might like to
install, and so you hit the + key.  Then you find that it requires
about 300 other packages that you don't have installed, and some of
them conflict with others that you do have installed and are more
important to you than this new one that you just decided to try.  What
you would like would be a sort of a back button or an undo that would
just back-step one step at a time.  Now, as I said, maybe it already
exists, but if it does, a beginner certainly wouldn't easily find it by
looking at the keystroke help page.  So then he is left with the choice
of either slogging ahead into potentially dangerous territory, or of
quitting and losing everything that he had done up till then and just
starting over.  It would be very useful to be able to see just how
complicated a problem you are about to get yourself into before you
commit yourself and then to back out gracefully if that seems wiser
than going ahead.

Another thing that would be really nice would be a way to see
the packages listed in the same order more than just one time in a row.
By that I mean that, when you first update your list of available
packages, then go to the select menu, you will see a list of the
packages which have changed up near the top of the list.  But if you go
to making some selections, and then make a mistake somewhere along the
line, or if you just quit after only doing half the job you would like
to do, and then restart dselect later, you will never see that same
list again.  Those packages that were listed near the top once, will in
the future be integrated into the long long list of packages, some in
the list of packages that are installed and some in the list of
packages that are not installed.  It would just be really nice to get a
second shot at that list that you saw the first time.

Now this has already gone far too long, and I don't know if this long
winded listing of beginner problems as I see them sounds familiar to
anyone

Re: no wonder...

[Oki DZ]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Richard  Taylor wrote:
>  My mileage varies. I find that the program simplifies what can be a 
> vastly more difficult process... that of tracking dependencies, versions, 
> file locations, etc, etc... It does it
> fairly well and it does it accurately.

I think the problem in dselect that it doesn't show the dependency tree.
The listing of the packages is useful, of course, but it's just a list.

Oki
ps: my mileage on dselect is 0.5 mile.

Re: no wonder...

[Oki DZ]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kent West wrote:  
> 2. Would the list members please stop ragging on newbies just because
> the newbie expresses some frustration at not knowing how to accomplish
> something? It's not that

I think saying "this is difficult" is not enough; it doesn't provide new
information (which would be useful for the software developers). IMHO, it
would have been better by saying: dselect is disgusting to use, very user
unfriendly, doesn't show any elegant design, and makes my dog yawning by
looking at it. But of course, it has to be followed up with explanations
of the things that could be improved, or at least with something that the
complainer would like to have or see. 

Oki
ps: Sure, then the developers would simply say: if you don't like it,
then feel free to write a new one by yourself.
:-)

Re: no wonder...

[Richard Taylor]

On 4/7/2000, 1:41:56 PM, Kent West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding Re: no 
wonder...:
> Richard Taylor wrote:
> > On 4/6/2000, 9:03:41 PM, Oki DZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding Re:
> > > On 5 Apr 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > > > No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult
> > > > Unix-clone distro to install and use...
> > > ...
> > > > Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite
> > > > difficult to use...
> >  As compared to something like... say... notepad?
> >  What's difficult about selecting things from a menu?

> 1. Nothing's difficult about selecting things from a menu. It's when 
those selections
> bring up other screens wanting to add/delete other things, which affect 
other things,
> which makes the user want to get out, and none of the keystrokes seem to 
work like a
> beginner (not someone who has read the docs and EXPERIENCED the 
experience) would
> expect. There's just a host of things that are difficult about deselect 
and apt.

 My mileage varies. I find that the program simplifies what can be a 
vastly more difficult process... that of tracking dependencies, versions, 
file locations, etc, etc... It does it
fairly well and it does it accurately.

 The docs are readily available... the explanations of what, why and so 
forth in regards to the files your working with are fairly clear... the 
program itself is pretty simple and requires you to use maybe a half 
dozen commands in normal use. It does everything for you. If there's any 
part of Debian I'd target as being difficult it certainly wouldn't be 
dselect. Personally, I think it's one of the best things the 
distribution's got going for it.

> There's a host of good about these products also; they're just not 
intuitive for the
> non-initiated.

 What could be more intuitive?

Re: no wonder...

[Kent West]

Richard Taylor wrote:

> On 4/6/2000, 9:03:41 PM, Oki DZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding Re:
> no
> > On 5 Apr 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > > No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult
> > > Unix-clone distro to install and use...
> > ...
> > > Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite
> > > difficult to use...
>
>  As compared to something like... say... notepad?
>
>  What's difficult about selecting things from a menu?

I really shouldn't add to the noise on this thread, but I'm going to anyway.

1. Nothing's difficult about selecting things from a menu. It's when those 
selections
bring up other screens wanting to add/delete other things, which affect other 
things,
which makes the user want to get out, and none of the keystrokes seem to work 
like a
beginner (not someone who has read the docs and EXPERIENCED the experience) 
would
expect. There's just a host of things that are difficult about deselect and apt.
There's a host of good about these products also; they're just not intuitive 
for the
non-initiated.

2. Would the list members please stop ragging on newbies just because the newbie
expresses some frustration at not knowing how to accomplish something? It's not 
that
the question "What's difficult about selecting things from a menu" (and other
questions/comments I've seen on this thread) is a rude question per se, but 
without
the visual/audio cues that are part of face-to-face communications, the intent 
behind
some of these questions/comments sound more like "You're an idiot if you can't 
do
something simple like running dselect."

Sorry if I've come across in an offensive manner; I don't mean to.

Re: no wonder...

[Richard Taylor]

On 4/6/2000, 9:03:41 PM, Oki DZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding Re: 
no
> On 5 Apr 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult
> > Unix-clone distro to install and use...
> ...
> > Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite
> > difficult to use...

 As compared to something like... say... notepad?

 What's difficult about selecting things from a menu?

Re: no wonder...

[Oki DZ]

On 5 Apr 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult 
> Unix-clone distro to install and use...
...
> Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite 
> difficult to use...

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist
A person from ITB says that using Debian is difficult... what a shame.

Oki

Re: no wonder...

[Oki DZ]

On 5 Apr 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult 
> Unix-clone distro to install and use...

What kind of people are they...?
What kind of difficulties you have?
 
> Fisrt of all, since Debian is not widely supported 
> (as I have noticed; compared to otherdistros such as 
> FreeBSD or Red Hat Linux), there are not many mirrors
> for me to download Debian sources for my installation.
> In my case, the only mirror in my country (Indonesia), 
> does not have a complete archive. It is also not up to 
> date...

How many mirrors do you need?  I've been using www.debian.org since the
beginning; the problems that arise mostly on TelkomNet (the connection to
the Internet -- TelkomNet's Jakarta gateway -- gets broken
intermittently).

The unavailability of Debian mirrors in Indonesia, I think, is not
Debian.org's responsibility; it's Indonesian Debian users.
 
> Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite 
> difficult to use...

You can use apt-get, and a web browser to find the packages you need.

Oki

Re: no wonder...

[Carl Fink]

On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:44:51AM +0200, Paolo Pedaletti wrote:

> and what about aptitude (console) % gnome-apt (X) ?

Well, aptitude is help-system free and has no affordances, making it
on first sight identical in difficulty to dselect.  I don't have
GNOME installed so probably can't use gnome-apt.

By the way:  I read the mailing list, so please don't send me a
duplicate of any responses to this:  to the list is enough.
-- 
Carl Fink   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I-Con's Science and Technology Guest of Honor in 2000 was Geoffrey
A. Landis.  Any suggestions for 2001?

Re: Re: no wonder...

[Paolo Pedaletti]

Ciao Carl Fink,

 > > > Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite 
 > > > difficult to use...
 > > 
 > > Yes, ever more difficult too as the number of packages increases.
 > > But what dselect disguises is an excellent package management tool.
 > > You might find apt a better front-end to use. Try man apt-get.
 > 
 > They aren't equivalent.  Apt is fine for installing programs, but for
 > *deciding* what to install, it's useless.  I find myself using
 > dselect to search package descriptions, then installing through apt. 

and what about aptitude (console) % gnome-apt (X) ?
(was very nice console-apt)

Ciao

-- 

Paolo Pedaletti, Como, ITALYa
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: no wonder...

[Vitux]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult
> Unix-clone distro to install and use...
> 
> Fisrt of all, since Debian is not widely supported
> (as I have noticed; compared to otherdistros such as
> FreeBSD or Red Hat Linux), there are not many mirrors
> for me to download Debian sources for my installation.
> In my case, the only mirror in my country (Indonesia),
> does not have a complete archive. It is also not up to
> date...
> 
> Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite
> difficult to use...
> 
> If you really want more people to use and support
> Debian, I think you should consider those points
> I've mentioned above.
> 
> OK! Thanks!
> 
> I Gede Wijaya S.
> 
> Bandung, Indonesia
> 
> PS: Please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
Not a very constructive way of posting. If you want help, be
specific about your problems, give as much info as possible,
and we'll try to help.
If you're seriously unhappy with Debian, there's lots of
other distro's around. They say RedHat is very userfriendly
(haven't tried it).
This is not the place for letting out bull like the
jimbo above.
BTW, maybe a cd with debian is the thing for you? they're
not that expensive.
(BTW: I used an american mirror for my installation, and it
went absolutely smooth. I get fine transfer rates, even
though I'm in Denmark.)
Yes, dselect can be a newbie-pain, but if you go easy, and
think, and ask constructive q's on the list, even newbies
can get it working. Recently a newbie myself.
hth
Vitux

-- 
Death comes to us in various guises, 
swiftly changing as a baby's mood...


Debian GNU/Linux
Micro$loth-free Zone

Re: no wonder...

[Phillip Deackes]

Antonio Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That is a good point. May be it would be a good idea to implement some
> kind of way to
> have a visual field of packages available, with short explanation and
> link to wider
> explanation (or link-option-command), accesible from within the
> system, without
> needing to surf the debian site. Especially when you are new to UNIX,
> or the packages
> are new, the task of deciding what you want and/or need may be too
> much.

You might like to look at the Storm Linux Package Manager - it is a
front-end to apt and allows one to browse and search installed *and
available* packages and see the descriptions etc.. The nice thing I
think is that once you tell it to process your selections it closes and
brings up an xterm where it runs apt-get. Once the packages have been
installed and configured, it asks if you want the downloaded packages
deleted, then returns you to the GUI. Very nice.

If you want to have a look, get it from:

ftp://ftp.stormix.com/storm/dists/rain/main/binary-i386/sl-stormpkg_1.0-1_i386.deb

Better still, add this to your /etc/apt/sources.list and you should be
able to request it using apt-get:

deb ftp://ftp.stormix.com/storm rain main contrib

If you are using Potato, replace 'rain' with 'potato'

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work on a standard Debian distro.


--
Phillip Deackes
Using Storm Linux 2000

Re: no wonder...

[Antonio Rodriguez]

That is a good point. May be it would be a good idea to implement some kind of 
way to
have a visual field of packages available, with short explanation and link to 
wider
explanation (or link-option-command), accesible from within the system, without
needing to surf the debian site. Especially when you are new to UNIX, or the 
packages
are new, the task of deciding what you want and/or need may be too much.

Carl Fink wrote:

> They aren't equivalent.  Apt is fine for installing programs, but for
> *deciding* what to install, it's useless.  I find myself using
> dselect to search package descriptions, then installing through apt.
> Sometimes I use lynx or links and search the Debian web site for the
> program name, then install with apt.  Either is unnecessarily clumsy.
> --
> Carl Fink   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Manager, Dueling Modems Computer Forum
> 
>
> --
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null

Re: no wonder...

[Carl Fink]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 07:09:04PM +0100, David Wright wrote:
> Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> > Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite 
> > difficult to use...
> 
> Yes, ever more difficult too as the number of packages increases.
> But what dselect disguises is an excellent package management tool.
> You might find apt a better front-end to use. Try man apt-get.

They aren't equivalent.  Apt is fine for installing programs, but for
*deciding* what to install, it's useless.  I find myself using
dselect to search package descriptions, then installing through apt. 
Sometimes I use lynx or links and search the Debian web site for the
program name, then install with apt.  Either is unnecessarily clumsy.
-- 
Carl Fink   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manager, Dueling Modems Computer Forum

Re: no wonder...

[Anthony Campbell]

On 05 Apr 2000, Antonio Rodriguez wrote:
> Regarding the support:
> I would not be so quick to say so. Debian is full of people that will help 
> you to the
> best of their ability (and believe me, their ability is not a little one) 
> without ever
> asking anything in return. Debian is also loaded with *goodstuff.deb. Now, if 
> this is
> not enough, what then will be?
> Try man apt-get; and man dpkg (or info instead of man)
> Good luck.
> 

Sorry for this `me too' but I feel I really must endorse this comment.
I've previously used Slackware and RedHat and I'd say that the level of
support in Debian, as well as the quality of the packages, is an order
of magnitude better than those. I've continually had helpful mail from
maintainers, and at this very moment someone is taking an immense amount
of trouble to track down the origin of a problem which I encountered
(and solved for myself), simply in order to try to avoid the risk that
others will encounter the same difficulty. I'm *most* impressed.


Anthony

-- 
Anthony Campbell - running Linux Debian 2.1 (Windows-free zone)
Book Reviews: http://www.pentelikon.freeserve.co.uk/bookreviews/
Skeptical articles: http://www.freethinker/uklinux.net/

"To be forced by desire into any unwarrantable belief is a calamity."
I.A. Richards

Re: no wonder...

[Antonio Rodriguez]

Regarding the support:
I would not be so quick to say so. Debian is full of people that will help you 
to the
best of their ability (and believe me, their ability is not a little one) 
without ever
asking anything in return. Debian is also loaded with *goodstuff.deb. Now, if 
this is
not enough, what then will be?
Try man apt-get; and man dpkg (or info instead of man)
Good luck.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult
> Unix-clone distro to install and use...
>
> Fisrt of all, since Debian is not widely supported
> (as I have noticed; compared to otherdistros such as
> FreeBSD or Red Hat Linux), there are not many mirrors
> for me to download Debian sources for my installation.
> In my case, the only mirror in my country (Indonesia),
> does not have a complete archive. It is also not up to
> date...
>
> Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite
> difficult to use...
>
> If you really want more people to use and support
> Debian, I think you should consider those points
> I've mentioned above.
>
> OK! Thanks!
>
> I Gede Wijaya S.
> 
> Bandung, Indonesia
>
> PS: Please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null

Re: no wonder...

[David Wright]

Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult 
> Unix-clone distro to install and use...

Thanks for making contact with us here. I presume you've found
your first experiences a little hard. I hope you stick wth us,
when you'll be able to make a better judgement than "people".

> Fisrt of all, since Debian is not widely supported 
> (as I have noticed; compared to otherdistros such as 
> FreeBSD or Red Hat Linux), there are not many mirrors
> for me to download Debian sources for my installation.
> In my case, the only mirror in my country (Indonesia), 
> does not have a complete archive. It is also not up to 
> date...

I thought there were two, one of which (debian-mirror.piksi.itb.ac.id)
appears to be at the same place as your email address. Is itb.ac.id
a university there? Perhaps you could have a word with the admin
people.

> Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite 
> difficult to use...

Yes, ever more difficult too as the number of packages increases.
But what dselect disguises is an excellent package management tool.
You might find apt a better front-end to use. Try man apt-get.

Cheers,

-- 
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Tel: +44 1908 653 739  Fax: +44 1908 655 151
Snail:  David Wright, Earth Science Dept., Milton Keynes, England, MK7 6AA
Disclaimer:   These addresses are only for reaching me, and do not signify
official stationery. Views expressed here are either my own or plagiarised.

no wonder...

[pumpkins]

No wonder people say that Debian is the most difficult 
Unix-clone distro to install and use...

Fisrt of all, since Debian is not widely supported 
(as I have noticed; compared to otherdistros such as 
FreeBSD or Red Hat Linux), there are not many mirrors
for me to download Debian sources for my installation.
In my case, the only mirror in my country (Indonesia), 
does not have a complete archive. It is also not up to 
date...

Another thing, is the dselect program: it is quite 
difficult to use...

If you really want more people to use and support 
Debian, I think you should consider those points 
I've mentioned above.

OK! Thanks!

I Gede Wijaya S.

Bandung, Indonesia

PS: Please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]