Re: Converting Knoppix to Woody

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 12:26, Hal Vaughan wrote:
> I've tried a few different installs to get Debian working on my system.
> 
> At one point I used the HD install script to install Knoppix on my harddrive.  
> It worked, in basics.
> 
> There seemed to be a few problems, such as menus in KDE (I would think this 
> would be a problem in Gnome, too).
> 
> If I re-install Knoppix (one benefit is it works w/ my video card -- Woody 
> doesn't), what can I do to get the packages (and the KDE menus) in sync w/ 
> Woody?
> 
> Is that possible?
> 
> I had trouble with adding some packages under Knoppix, but did not have the 
> same trouble under a "regular" Debian install.

Have you looked into Libranet?  It's a very fine Woddy/sarge/sid
based distro that uses KDE.

The previous version (v2.0) is free for download.

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Re: Has Anyone Used This Debian Book?

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 12:22, Hal Vaughan wrote:
> I just found this book for almost nothing at a local book discount shop:
> 
> Debian GNU/Linux 2.1 Unleashed by Mario Camou and Aaron Von Cowenberghe
> 
> Has anyone read or used this book?  Several years ago I bought a sister book 
> (same cover, same style, almost same title) for Redhat and it was the book 
> that got me going on Linux and setting up my own lan (and everything else).
> 
> I figured, since I was having trouble with some hardware and a few things here 
> and there, that I might start with this book and 2.1, take the time to go 
> through the book and learn all the Debian specific stuff (the section on 
> package management, including dselect, apt, and dpkg is 30 pages, for 
> example), then change my apt sources to include Woody and upgrade the system.
> 
> If I understand apt, upgrading from 2.1 to Woody should be that simple -- is 
> it?  And, when I was trying to install Woody, I booted from disc 5 instead of 
> disc 1 to go with the later kernel.  Is it simple to upgrade the kernel 
> later?
> 
> The other option -- I don't know how much has changed since 2.1.  I know the 
> install has changed, but, other than that, would most everything else be the 
> same (other than later versions of some packages)?
> 
> Thanks for any comments and opinions.
> 
> (I'm also looking at installing Knoppix on my HD and altering it, but that's 
> another post...)

There was a recent thread discussing the errors when attempting to
upgrade from slink (2.1) to Woody.  Look for "slink" in the Subject
line.

The consensus was: 
1. You can't go directly from 2.1 to 3.0.  You must go through 2.2
   first.
2. Doing a fresh 3.0 install is good for cleaning out all the old
   cruft.  Apparently, some config files have moved around since then.

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Re: "debian rookie" trying to get his bearings...

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 18:24, Shyamal Prasad wrote:
> "David" == David Z Maze  writes:
> 
> David> "Jeff Hahn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> I'm setting up a "test" debian server (contemplating a move of
> >> several redhat boxes)
> 
> >> One quick question to get me going a little better...  How do
> >> you install services (apache, samba, whatever) and NOT have
> >> them start on system startup?
> 
> David> Probably the easiest way is to 'rm /etc/rc2.d/S20apache',
> David> etc. as root.  
> 
> IMHO this is almost the Debian Way to do this. I would actually
> suggest 'mv /etc/rc2.d/S20apache /etc/rc2.d/K20apache' and so on for
> each service you want to shutdown in runlevel 2.

The Unix Way is to rename S20apache to K20apache.  That way, you can
see what's been explicitly turned off, and you'll know that if it's
not in /etc/rc2.d/ then it hasn't been installed.

Remeber to also rename /etc/rc6.d/K??apache !!!

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Re: cdrecord and BIG DISKS - Might help someone

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 19:34, Pigeon wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> This might help someone who's using cdrecord to write BIG DISKS. I got
> a pack of 900Mb CD-Rs recently, and tried to write a large image
> according to the cookbook example in man cdrecord:
> 
> cdrecord -v -speed=32 dev=x,y,z filename.raw
> 
> Didn't work. As soon as it had written 703Mb it barfed with an
> 'attempt to seek past last sector' or similar. This did work:
> 
> cdrecord -v -speed=32 dev=x,y,z -dao -isosize filename.raw
> 
> The cookbook example for writing audio CDs does work for CDs larger
> than 703Mb. (The main reason I bought those CD-Rs was to get both
> albums of The Wall onto one CD. That worked fine... but my hi-fi's CD
> player doesn't like it - just about manages to read the TOC, can't
> manage to read the rest.)
> 
> Hope this helps someone.

Where did you get 900MiB CD-Rs?

How many minutes of music are they supposed to hold?

The only 2 sizes I've seen are 650MiB (74 min) & 700MiB (80 min).

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Re: Oh no, what a really heavy bummer

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 12:14, Pigeon wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 04:43:44PM +1100, Rob Weir wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 03:22:44PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 11:17, Pigeon wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > [snip]
> > > > 
> > > > Having put appropriate deb-src lines in sources.list, pointing to CD
> > > > images or websites as appropriate, have I got this sequence right?
> > > > 
> > > > apt-get source --download-only whatever   # get source package
> > > > dpkg-source -x whatever.dsc   # unpack it
> > > > # fiddle with Makefiles etc.
> > > > dpkg-buildpackage -b -ai686 whatever.dsc  # create binary .deb
> > > > dpkg -i whatever.deb  # install it
> > > 
> > > Here's how I do it:
> > > # apt-get source gqview=1.0.2-1
> > > # export CC=gcc-3.2 -Wall -O2 -mcpu=pentiumpro
> 
> Shouldn't that be -march=pentimpro, unless you want to generate
> 386-compatible code?

Oh, man!  Thanks for pointing that out...

> > That's kinda nasty.  I think CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS are better places to
> > put this sort of thing.
> 
> That's what I generally do, but some non-Debian stuff sometimes has
> nasty makefiles that don't take account of your CFLAGS, or even your
> CC, which leads to even uglier hacks like
> 
> # cd /usr/bin
> # mv gcc-2.95 realgcc-2.95
> # cat > gcc-2.95
> exec /usr/bin/realgcc-2.95 -Wall -O2 -march=i686 ${*}
> ^D
> # chmod a+x gcc-2.95

Blech!

> or something along those lines. Yuk! (Raise both wings high above
> back, whack offending code with one of them)
> 
> gcc-2.95 v. 3.2: I've got 2.95 at the moment because that's what I've
> been used to. Before I download big source packages, am I right in
> thinking that 3.2 itself runs slower, but the code it produces runs
> faster? And the difference is quite noticeable?

So they say.  On the few things I've tried it on, I haven't noticed.

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Re: "debian rookie" trying to get his bearings...

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 12:57, Kent West wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> 
> >The Unix Way [to disable automatic starting of init scripts] is to rename 
> >S20apache to K20apache.  That way, you can
> >see what's been explicitly turned off, and you'll know that if it's
> >not in /etc/rc2.d/ then it hasn't been installed.
> >
> >Remeber to also rename /etc/rc6.d/K??apache !!!
> >
> >  
> >
> How about renaming S20apache to NOS20apache? This way, you can see at a 
> glance which scripts are start scripts, which are kill scripts, and 
> which are scripts that have been disabled by the sysadmin, as opposed to 
> wondering which of the K scripts were made that way by "the system' and 
> which were made that way by the sysadmin.
> 
> It also might save a few nano-seconds during boot-up as the NO scripts 
> don't have to be parsed as do the K scripts.

That's just as valid.  Really, it doesn't matter what you rename them
to, since the startup only looks at S*.  Me, I prefer renaming things
to, for example __S20foobar.

(I don't do it The Unix Way... So sue me! )

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Re: "debian rookie" trying to get his bearings...

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 20:29, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Kent West wrote:
> > Jeff Hahn wrote:
> > 
> > >I'm setting up a "test" debian server (contemplating a move of several
> > >redhat boxes)
[snip]
> Every Redhat user asks about chkconfig.  Having used Redhat myself I
> always needed to edit the init.d script, set the run level, save, run
> chkconfig to create the symlinks, then invoke the script when
> installing a new package.  But on Debian none of that is needed.  Not
> needing to run chkconfig has left many people stymied.  How do you
> install the symlinks?  You don't need to because by default they are
> installed automatically.

Note, though, a mid-sized gotcha:  all (well, almost all) the symlinks
in /etc/rc2.d will be S20.  This is because the package maintainer
doesn't know where in the boot sequence that *you* want the app to run.

Thus, you'll have to mv S20foo to whatever number you want...

[snip]

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Re: cdrecord and BIG DISKS - Might help someone

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 23:30, Marc Wilson wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 10:43:35PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > Where did you get 900MiB CD-Rs?
> 
> Buy them in a store. ^_^  You can get 90 minute and 99 minute discs now.

Silly comments from the Peanut Gallery are *not* appreciated this late
at night...

> The 90's usually work in most drives that you can get to do overburn, but
> the 99's are VERY twitchy because not only do they use the run-out area,
> but the spiral is tighter.

Then I think I'll stick w/ disks that follow the standards.  That's
what Linux is all about, anyway, right?

Besides, when I have more than 700MB to burn, I use That Which One Is
Supposed To Use In This Situation: split(1)!

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Re: CPU usage on debian (was: Re: Memory usage on debian)

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 21:42, Pigeon wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 12:20:56AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 10:21:12PM +, Pigeon wrote:
[snip]
> Now, I have a UDMA66 HD, which on buffered disk reads in hdparm -t
> gives rates of about 28Mb/s, both with the onboard VIA controller and
> a CMD680 PCI card. I also have a Quantum Viking 4.5 SCSI drive and
> Initio INIC-950P (9100UW) SCSI card. This only gives me around 10Mb/s
> in hdparm -t. Seems a bit slow to me. hdparm -T gives over 200Mb/s for
> any drive.

Well, 4.5GB SCSI drives are pretty old, and 10MB/s is SCSI-2's *exact*
max speed, so maybe you're maxing out the Viking.

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[OT] question regarding sort(1)

[Ron Johnson]

Hi,

I have a text file, and part of it is a column of numbers.  When I
run sort(1) v4.5.2, it is trying to be clever, sorting on the column 
of numbers.

What I want, though, is a straight, dumb ASCII sort based on each whole
line of text, where " " collates before "0", etc.  I've looked in the
man page, but see nothing.

TIA,
Ron
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Re: [OT] question regarding sort(1)

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 11:40, Steve Juranich wrote:
> On 26 January 2003 at 10:37,
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > What I want, though, is a straight, dumb ASCII sort based on each whole
> > line of text, where " " collates before "0", etc.  I've looked in the
> > man page, but see nothing.

Here's an example:

$ sort sort.example.txt
  10,040,583  Violin_Concerto_in_D_major_Op._35.mp3
  10,056,845  Symphony_5_Allegro_con_brio.mp3
  10,101,975  MARS,_The_Bringer_of_War.mp3
   1,011,879  rudolph's finale,instrumental.mp3
  10,150,230  track_15.mp3
   1,016,476  track 10.mp3
  10,191,633  Moonlight_Sonata_Presto_agitato.mp3
   1,019,494  track_22.mp3
   1,019  rip.ama.sh
   1,024,000  track 32.mp3
  10,303,836  Memory_Motel.mp3
  10,331,203  Track_9.mp3
  10,351,528  The_Long_Road_Back.mp3
  10,394,167  Don_Giovanni_K_527_-_a_cenar_teco_minvitasti.mp3
   1,041,972  belle (reprise).mp3
  10,485,888  notes - prima donna.mp3
  10,524,581  Flower_waltz_from_The_Nutcracker.mp3
   1,055,346  track 10.mp3
   1,061,527  Two-Part_Invention_No._10_in_G_Major,_BWV_781.mp3
   1,061,616  track 07.mp3
   1,067,049  monkey chase.mp3
   1,068,303  track 24.mp3

Since " " collates before "1", I think it should sort to:
   1,019  rip.ama.sh
   1,011,879  rudolph's finale,instrumental.mp3
   1,016,476  track 10.mp3
   1,019,494  track_22.mp3
   1,041,972  belle (reprise).mp3
   1,055,346  track 10.mp3
   1,061,527  Two-Part_Invention_No._10_in_G_Major,_BWV_781.mp3
   1,061,616  track 07.mp3
   1,067,049  monkey chase.mp3
   1,068,303  track 24.mp3
  10,040,583  Violin_Concerto_in_D_major_Op._35.mp3
  10,056,845  Symphony_5_Allegro_con_brio.mp3
  10,101,975  MARS,_The_Bringer_of_War.mp3
  10,150,230  track_15.mp3
  10,191,633  Moonlight_Sonata_Presto_agitato.mp3
  10,303,836  Memory_Motel.mp3
  10,331,203  Track_9.mp3
  10,351,528  The_Long_Road_Back.mp3
  10,394,167  Don_Giovanni_K_527_-_a_cenar_teco_minvitasti.mp3
  10,485,888  notes - prima donna.mp3
  10,524,581  Flower_waltz_from_The_Nutcracker.mp3

The Python sort() method sorts the way I expect it to, btw, but
I'd rather use a standard tool.

> I guess I'm not quite clear on what you want, but as I see it there's 
> only two ways to do this:
> 
> quail (sjuranic)$ cat text
> 1
> [snip]
> 1001
> 
> Unless you want something really strange, like "2" to come before "200" 
> but after "1000" (in which case you'll probably have to roll your own).

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Re: cdrecord and BIG DISKS - Might help someone

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 08:50, Pigeon wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 02:45:56AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 23:30, Marc Wilson wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 10:43:35PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > > Where did you get 900MiB CD-Rs?
[snip]
> > Besides, when I have more than 700MB to burn, I use That Which One Is
> > Supposed To Use In This Situation: split(1)!
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Dear Messrs Gilmour, Waters, Mason and Wright,
> Please could you re-record "The Wall" at an average tempo 1.5% faster
> than the original so I can get it all on one CD without breaking the
> standards.
> Thanks, Pigeon.
> 
> Dear Pigeon,
> Sorry, Roger is no longer with us. He's split(1).
> PF

Well, you see, if you listened to *good* bands, like the Rolling Stones,
or, better yet, the Bellamy Brothers, or even *better*, Merle Haggard,
you wouldn't have that problem, now would you?

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Re: CPU usage on debian (was: Re: Memory usage on debian)

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 07:37, Pigeon wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 03:03:10AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 21:42, Pigeon wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 12:20:56AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 10:21:12PM +, Pigeon wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > Now, I have a UDMA66 HD, which on buffered disk reads in hdparm -t
> > > gives rates of about 28Mb/s, both with the onboard VIA controller and
> > > a CMD680 PCI card. I also have a Quantum Viking 4.5 SCSI drive and
> > > Initio INIC-950P (9100UW) SCSI card. This only gives me around 10Mb/s
> > > in hdparm -t. Seems a bit slow to me. hdparm -T gives over 200Mb/s for
> > > any drive.
> > 
> > Well, 4.5GB SCSI drives are pretty old, and 10MB/s is SCSI-2's *exact*
> > max speed, so maybe you're maxing out the Viking.
> 
> I thought it was 10MHz transfer rate over a 16-bit bus (68-pin cable),
> giving 20Mb/s. No? It does seem suspiciously close to the "quantum" of
> SCSI speed though. Is there a decent utility that allows me to see
> what transfer mode it's using, and tweak it, in the manner of hdparm
> and UDMA settings? I've had a look at scsiinfo but it doesn't seem to
> be able to tell me what speed the SCSI bus is being driven at.

SCSI-1   5MB/s (8 bit)
SCSI-2  10MB/s (8 bit)
Wide SCSI-2 20MB/s (16 bit)

Besides, who ever maxes out a specification?  Even if the disk is 
Wide SCSI2, to get 50% of theoretical maximum is nothing to sneeze
at...

> The card itself claims 40Mb/s synchronous; I had expected to get up to 
> 20Mb/s from the Viking. A faster and larger SCSI drive is next on my
> wish list; it's good that SCSI gear is finally becoming available
> without having to pay a fortune for it.

Yeah, but the problem is that ATA/EIDE is getting better, too

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Re: [OT] question regarding sort(1)

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 14:12, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Vineet Kumar wrote:
> > * Ron Johnson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030126 11:22]:
> > > On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 11:40, Steve Juranich wrote:
> > > > On 26 January 2003 at 10:37,
> > > > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > What I want, though, is a straight, dumb ASCII sort based on each whole
> > > > > line of text, where " " collates before "0", etc.  I've looked in the
> > > > > man page, but see nothing.
> 
>   man sort
> 
>The full documentation for sort is maintained as a Texinfo
>manual.  If  the  info  and  sort  programs  are  properly
>installed at your site, the command
> 
>   info sort
> 
> Unless otherwise specified, all comparisons use the character
> collating sequence specified by the `LC_COLLATE' locale.
> 
> Therefore your current locale directly controls sort ordering.  This
> is a number one source of confusion for sort and ls and appears in the
> GNU coreutils faq.
> 
>   http://www.gnu.org/software/fileutils/doc/faq/
> 
> > works for me:
> 
> Me too.
> 
> > doozer:/tmp% locale
> > LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> 
> Veneet poses a good point.  What is your locale?
> 
> Try setting your locale to posix and see if that works for you.
> 
>   LC_ALL=POSIX sort < infile > outfile

Ah ha!  That worked...  Setting it to C also worked.

$ locale
LANG=en_US
LC_CTYPE="en_US"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US"
LC_TIME="en_US"
LC_COLLATE="en_US"
LC_MONETARY="en_US"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US"
LC_PAPER="en_US"
LC_NAME="en_US"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US"
LC_ALL=

I'm sure I'll be back, if I can't figure out how to permanently change
the locale.

Thanks,
Ron
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Re: CPU usage on debian (was: Re: Memory usage on debian)

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 17:44, Pigeon wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 01:19:14PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 07:37, Pigeon wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 03:03:10AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 21:42, Pigeon wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 12:20:56AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 10:21:12PM +, Pigeon wrote:
> > > > [snip]
[snip]
> It would be useful to have a profiling tool that would monitor disk
> access, and give information like time spent accessing each file, how
> often it was accessed, what proportion of accesses came from data
> cached in main memory, what proportion required an actual disk read,
> what proportion found the data in the disk drive's cache, etc. etc. to
> help figure out which directories go best on which drive. Any
> recommendations?

Seems like kernel support would be needed to export that data, say, to
/proc.

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Re: How to determine why a package is "held back"?

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 09:35, stan wrote:
> I've got 2 differnt "testing' machines that should be set up in a very
> similar fashion (mine which I tend to test things on first, and my wife's,
> which I ry to keep _very_ stable).
> 
> Latley when I do apt-gte update ; apt-get dist-upgrade, her machine has
> been "holding back" gnome-common.
> 
> How can I determine why this is os, and correct it?

# apt-get -s -u install gnome-common

Oh, and NEVER do "apt-gte update ; apt-get dist-upgrade".  If the
"apt-get upgrade" fails, the dist-upgrade will proceed anyway.

You should do this:
# apt-gte update && apt-get dist-upgrade

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Re: Backup Consensus?

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 15:32, Grant Bowman wrote:
> Is there a place where a general consensus has been reached on exactly
> what is necesary to backup a Debian system?  I'm sure this has been
> asked and answered many times before, so I am looking for URLs to where
> this has been discussed in the past.
> 
> I apologize in advance, but I'm not a subscriber of this list.  Please
> cc me on replies.

You mean a package to do it, or which files to back up, or the h/w
to use?

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Re: How to determine why a package is "held back"?

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 03:07, Xavier Bestel wrote:
> > You should do this:
> > # apt-gte update && apt-get dist-upgrade
> 
> I prefer this:
> 
> # apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade --no-remove
> 
> 
> That way if there's a package with broken dependencies, I can see it
> before it removes half my desktop.

Sounds like you put that in a cron script, and I don't like that
idea.  However, this is recommended method, I believe:
In the cron script:
# apt-get update && apt-get -d -u dist-upgrade
Next morning, from a terminal window:
# apt-get -u dist-upgrade

That'll allow you to decide what you *really* want to do, especially
regarding config files.

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Re: Some package questions

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 05:58, Joakim Hove wrote:
> Hello Debian Masters,
> 
> I have just switched RedHat -> Debian, and so far I must say I am *very
> pleased* with the conversion, mostly due to the packaging, I never
> really got allong with RPM. However I still do have some (small ?)
> questions about packages:

We all did, when first coming over from The Dark Side...

[snip]
>  2. I have read that the debian packages do not contain version
> numbers from the packaged software. However for instance emacs
> exists as both emacs20 and emacs21 packages, does that imply that
> to debians packagesystem these two packages are *completely
> unrelated*, and as a corollary there is no (debian) ugrade route
> from the 20.xx versions of emacs to the 21.xx versions?

Two big friends of yours:
# apt-cache search 
# apt-cache show 

"apt-cache show" will show you info like Dependencies, Conflicts, and
Suggests.

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Re: cdrecord and BIG DISKS - Might help someone

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 21:47, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 21:28:16 -0800,
> Marc Wilson wrote:
> > 
> > On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 01:34:17AM +, Pigeon wrote:
> > > cdrecord -v -speed=32 dev=x,y,z -dao -isosize filename.raw
> > 
> > The hitch was the instruction to cdrecord to write the disc in
> > DAO mode.  Many many recorders cannot deal with the CUE sheet
> > they're sent in DAO mode unless they're told the total size of
> > the image.
> 
> What works for me is option "-ignsize":

Hmmm, interesting.

> echo "burn 800MB" ; cdrecord -v dev=lite8 -dao -ignsize cdrom.iso
> 
> > Your original write blew up because the largest disc that can
> > be encoded in the ATIP is 700 mb.  Anything larger is an
> > overburn, and you're right back to the CUE sheet problem again.
> > 
> > I've got three recorders... one NEC, two LiteOn.  The NEC won't
> > overburn no matter what you do, one of the LiteOn's doesn't
> > care and just does whatever you tell it, and the other LiteOn
> > has the CUE sheet thing.  Frustrating.
> 
> I can live with something that behaves predictably.

And that produces media that can be freely shared between friends
w/o having to worry if they have a compatible CD drive.

This kinda reminds me of when early 1.2MB floppys had trouble reading
360KB floppys formatted/written to by other 1.2MB floppys.

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Re: External serial modem advice ?

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 11:59, Dave Selby wrote:
> On Sunday 26 January 2003 1:56 pm, Pigeon wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 12:50:33AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 07:36:17AM +, Dave Selby wrote:
> > > > mmm coffee ... so you thing it does have a use ?
> > >
> > > Yup.  Wedge it under a door and it'll keep the door open.
> >
> > Or, you can cut off most of the PCB, and connect the line sockets to a
> > spare disk drive power connector, via a wee regulator if necessary.
> > Then you can plug a suitable cable into them to supply power to your
> > external serial modem.
> >
> > If you have plasterboard walls, you can then use the cut-off PCB to
> > pretend to be a ninja, throwing it like a death star and watching it
> > embed itself in the wall.
> >
> > Pigeon
> 
> No sorry I just cant agree, I used the winmodem as a door stop and jabbed my 
> toe, I cut it up and threw it at the wall, it didnt stick
> 
> Conclusion 
> 
> WINMODEMS ARE TOTALLY USELESS !!!

Well you can't just break the PCBs into random pieces!  You must care-
fully cut the pieces, then lovingly sharpen the edges, so that they
can latherlessly shave you smooth.

THEN they will stick it then wall.

(Of course, if anyone other than your geekiest friends saw you shaving
with a sharpened PCB, you'd be sent straight to the funny farm...

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Re: tune2fs ext2 -> ext3 do I do it to swap ???

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 13:25, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Ive converted my debian from ext2 to ext3 .. no problems.
> >
> > Do I need to do the same to my swap partition, is there any advantage
> > ??
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
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> 
> 
> I'm thinking not.
> 
> ext3 is a journaling system for the purpose of data integrity and
> reliability in the event of a disk failure or some interruption of
> service.
> SWAP is the most temporary partition you can possibly have.  /tmp would be
> the next most temporary partition.
> In general, I believe that the use of journaling file systems is a
> degredation of performance compared to a non-journaled system.  But I
> could be very wrong in some cases.  I'm not really sure
> But regarding swap, I don't think it will do anything useful for you...

Heck, not only would it not do anything useful for you, you just can't 
do it!!

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Re: what's fstype 83? "Linux"?

[Ron Johnson]

Maybe try an fsck on them first?  Or could you have used a different
filesystem?  reiserfs, maybe?

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 15:27, will trillich wrote:
> i've found an old (debian slink?) drive around the house, and
> plugged it in -- but i can't mount most of the partitions!
> 
>   root# sfdisk -l /dev/hdb
> 
>   Disk /dev/hdb: 4956 cylinders, 16 heads, 63 sectors/track
>   Warning: The partition table looks like it was made
> for C/H/S=*/128/63 (instead of 4956/16/63).
>   For this listing I'll assume that geometry.
>   Units = cylinders of 4128768 bytes, blocks of 1024 bytes, counting from 0
> 
>  Device Boot Start End   #cyls#blocks   Id  System
>   /dev/hdb1   *  0+  3   4- 16127+  83  Linux
>   /dev/hdb2  4  64  61 245952   83  Linux
>   /dev/hdb3 65 618 55422337285  Extended
>   /dev/hdb4  0   -   0  00  Empty
>   /dev/hdb5 65+573 509-   2052287+  83  Linux
>   /dev/hdb6574+618  45-181439+  82  Linux swap
> 
> yes, i know, that's an awful place for the swap partition. i
> know, i know. i'm feeling much better now -- this was a few
> years back, when i set this puppy up. it sure would be nice to
> mount it and recover the things i'm interested in...
> 
> i'll try mounting partitions hdb1, hdb2 and hdb5:
> 
>   root: /mnt# mount -t ext2 /dev/hdb1 /mnt/1/
>   mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hdb1,
>  or too many mounted file systems
> 
> hmm! maybe if i leave off the trailing / no the mount-point--
> 
>   root: /mnt# mount -t ext2 /dev/hdb1 /mnt/1
>   mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hdb1,
>  or too many mounted file systems
> 
> nope. let's try partition 2 for fun:
> 
>   root: /mnt# mount -t ext2 /dev/hdb2 /mnt/2
> 
> no complaints -- IT WORKED? hmm! how about partition 5:
> 
>   root: /mnt# mount -t ext2 /dev/hdb5 /mnt/5
>   mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hdb5,
>  or too many mounted file systems
> 
> can't mount #1 or #5? but #2 is okay?
> 
>   root: /mnt# df -h
>   FilesystemSize  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>   /dev/hda2 182M   47M  126M  27% /
>   /dev/hda1 7.6M  5.3M  1.9M  73% /boot
>   /dev/hda5 228M  203M   13M  94% /home
>   /dev/hda6 1.8G  828M  953M  47% /usr
>   /dev/hda7 1.5G  1.4G  133M  92% /var
>   /dev/hdb2 232M   24M  196M  11% /mnt/2  <== this one's okay
> 
> hdb[125] are all "Linux" filesystem type 83 (ext2, right)? but
> only hdb2 would mount? very much odd, here.
> 
> ideas? (i think this was my slink disk drive -- i'd like to use
> it to alleviate some space pressure on my woody server...)

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Re: Mysterious disk activity

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 15:37, Pigeon wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 10:03:05AM +0100, Rogier Wolff wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 26, 2003 at 01:58:04AM +, Pigeon wrote:
> > > Hi,
[snip]
> No, I switch it off when I'm not using it. I sleep in the same room
> and 4 fans and 6 disk drives make a lot of noise... Also the power
> consumption, and resulting temperature rise in the room, are
> non-negligible.

Leave it on, and fall quickly to sleep listening to white noise,
while lowering the house's thermostat, since you have an auxillary
heater in the room.

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Re: Backup Consensus?

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 19:50, will trillich wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 12:37:57PM +,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
> 
> 
> OT: so where's the lexicon that relates quid, guinea, bob,
> shilling, pence, pound and so forth, for the ignorant
> north-americaner? :)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=quid
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=guinea
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sterling

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Re: Swap and ext3 (was: tune2fs ext2 -> ext3 do I do it to swap???)

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 19:51, Steve Lamb wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2003 15:29:18 -0600
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Heck, not only would it not do anything useful for you, you just can't 
> > do it!!
> 
> Well, technically you can after a fashion.  You can make a swap file on
> the current file system which could be ext3.  In fact I've done just that with
> swapd.  Question is what effects do a journalling file system have on swap
> files?

Very true, but then it's a swap *file*, not a swap partition, and that's
what the OP asked about...

Besides, *why* create a swap file, when swap partitions are more
efficient?

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recurring costs of computer hobby (was: Re: Mysterious diskactivity)

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 21:32, nate wrote:
> Ron Johnson said:
> 
> > Leave it on, and fall quickly to sleep listening to white noise,
> > while lowering the house's thermostat, since you have an auxillary heater
> > in the room.
> 
> I like white noise, but unfortunately not all computers emit such
> noise. my tivo is one, as is my laptop, I gotta turn on a powerful
> fan at night to drown out the tivo, which has 2 drives in it, at least
> one of them has gotten to the 'soft but piercing whine' point where
> I have trouble sleeping. Doesn't compare to my laptop, it's about 10x
> louder :(
> 
> just gotta have enough fans to offset the whine. Used to have my redhat
> server in my bedroom, but it too was too loud with 5 x 10k RPM drives,
> the whine was loud despite 3x30CFM fans and my floor fan running. but
> in my living room I can barely hear the whine, since there are about 7
> other computers running at any given time with lots more fans, my 48port
> switch's fans are really loud and do a good job at generating white noise,
> one time last year when a friend came in from outta town I actually slept
> next to my rack so he could have my bedroom for the night, wasn't too
> bad since there was so many fans(with all of em maybe 250CFM total)

Your electric bills my be outrageous...

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Re: what's fstype 83? "Linux"?

[Ron Johnson]

There's a way to fix this.  Googling for "Bad magic number" and
"super-block" should bring something up...

On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 20:58, will trillich wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 04:22:21PM -0800, nate wrote:
> > will trillich said:
> > > ideas? (i think this was my slink disk drive -- i'd like to
> > > use it to alleviate some space pressure on my woody
> > > server...)
> > 
> > what does e2fsck say for those drives you cannot mount? Try
> > running a read-only pass on them. I can't imagine why the
> > newer kernel would be unable to mount a slink partition(though
> > I can see it happening the other way around), though I haven't
> > personally tried it.
> 
> root: /mnt# e2fsck /dev/hdb1
> e2fsck 1.27 (8-Mar-2002)
> Couldn't find ext2 superblock, trying backup blocks...
> e2fsck: Bad magic number in super-block while trying to open /dev/hdb1
> 
> root: /mnt# e2fsck /dev/hdb5
> e2fsck 1.27 (8-Mar-2002)
> Couldn't find ext2 superblock, trying backup blocks...
> e2fsck: Bad magic number in super-block while trying to open /dev/hdb5
> 
>   N.B. an earlier thread noticed "bad magic" mentioned at or
>   before LILO, so it may have been this type of thing
>   (certainly not the file-detector 'magic number' theory)...
> 
> files on /dev/hdb2 have modification times no later than
> september 2000 -- pre-ext3 by a long shot. and i'm *positive*
> i've never even tried reiserfs, certainly not two-and-a-half
> years ago. wasn't ext2 the default for formatting under the
> potato or slink install? (as i recall, potato would start out as
> ext2 and then offered an ext3 option later... nope, ext3 didn't
> work either.)
> 
> > and partition type 83 is linux yes, but it's just a partition type,
> > many kinds of filesystems can reside in there.
> 
> racking my brain (what there is left of it) i stir no memory of
> anything unusual, file-system-wise. i'm just about certain that
> all three of these partitions would be the same file system.
> 
> yet /dev/hdb2 mounts like a charm.

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Re: Using VIA C3 and Woody?

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 07:10, Bill Moseley wrote:
> I want to build a very quiet and stable machine.  Anyone using a VIA C3
> based system with Woody?  If so, what motherboard are you using?  Any
> hardware issues?

There's an option to specify the C3/Elan when compiling new kernels.
Even if there weren't, a 386 kernel would work fine.

> The machine will not be running X, rather it will probably be a home-use
> IMAP mail server (very low traffic).  So on-board video and lan will be
> fine (although it may act as a firewall too, so I'll need two NICs).

I'd recommend that the firewall be on it's own stand-alone system,
so that, for example, if it gets hacked, the bad guy would stil have
to hack into your other machines to get ahold of your data.

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Re: invalid date from date -d 1969-12-31

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 09:32, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 11:36:36PM -0800, Eric G. Miller wrote:
> >On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 10:59:47PM -0500, Stan Heckman wrote:
> >> On my system, date -d returns "invalid date" for dates before 1970. It
> >> is possible that this began when I upgraded libc6. Any suggestions?
> >
> >1970-01-01 is time zero for *nixen.  You're asking about what happened
> >before the big bang!  Guess "date" is not as generally useful for
> >reformatting dates as it could be.  However, its primary function is to
> >set/print the current date/time which is always more recent than 1970.
> 
> Guess again. It works fine here... debian 3.0r1
> $ date -d "1/15/1905"
> Sun Jan 15 00:00:00 EST 1905
> $ date -d "1/15/1905" +%s
> -2049994800
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me if I couldn't set my clock to negative Unix time
> though.
> 
>  try "export LC_TIME=C" or better yet "export LC_ALL=C" man
> locale for details. 

$ date -d "1/15/1905"
date: invalid date `1/15/1905'

$ LC_TIME=C date -d "1/15/1905"
date: invalid date `1/15/1905'

$ LC_ALL=C date -d "1/15/1905"
date: invalid date `1/15/1905'


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Re: Backup Consensus?

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 07:47, bob parker wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:22, Pigeon wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 11:03:47PM +1100, bob parker wrote:
> > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:32, Grant Bowman wrote:
[snip]
> Thanks for the support. Re /var, I just did a du -h on it and mine comes out 
> at 1.1 gig! Any thoughts on what is essential and what is not?

The apt cache isn't essential.  So, this might clear out a bunch:
# apt-cache clean

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Re: BackOrifice on Linux?

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 16:43, Kent West wrote:
> I just ran the command "sudo nmap  -sT -sU localhost" which listed the 
> following:
> 
>  . . .
> 
> 12345/tcp  openNetBus 
> 12346/tcp  openNetBus 
> 27665/tcp  openTrinoo_Master  
> 31335/udp  openTrinoo_Register
> 31337/tcp  openElite  
> 31337/udp  openBackOrifice
> 32770/udp  opensometimes-rpc4 
> 
>  . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Should I be concerned, or is this maybe part of portsentry or something 
> similar?

Shouldn't you run nmap on $EXTERN_IP, instead of localhost?  I could
care less what ports that localhost is listening to...

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Re: cu program?

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-01-29 at 09:29, Larry W.Irwin Sr. wrote:
>   Hi,
> 
>   I have finally built a small home lan and want to leave my modem
> connected to the server machine. I found a HOWTO on this subject in
> the doc-linux package. The following perl script was listed as one
> method of routing pppd from one machine to the other.
> ---
> #!/usr/bin/perl  
> select((select(STDOUT), $| = 1)[$[]);
> select((select(STDIN), $| = 1)[$[]); 
> exec 'cu -s 115200 -l /dev/ttyS0';  
> die '$0: Cant exec cu: $!\n';
> ---
>   I cannot locate the cu program. Can someone point me in the right
> direction?

Jeez, uucp is, like, /totally/ 80's!

Seriously, look for diald, and put it on the modem-server.  With port
forwarding enabled, it waits for all inet packets destined for outside
the LAN.  If it sees such packets (i.e., someone on another box tries
to go to http://www.i-love-msft.org), then if the modem is disconnected,
it fires up pppd, and if it's on-line, it does nothing.  Either way,
once a connection is made, the packets are then passed through.

Also, there is a user-configurable time-out period, so that you can
surf at leisure w/o constantly getting disconnected.

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Re: find a command i have recently used in bash

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-01-29 at 10:28, Nathan E Norman wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 07:51:07PM +0530, Sandip P Deshmukh wrote:
> > hello all
> > 
> > i am sure there must be a way of doing it. i am not getting it though.
> > 
> > let us say, i have done ls -l , etc etc
> > then i have done a few more commands at the prompt.
> > 
> > now, i want to use that ls command again. is there a way inwhich i can
> > reach it quickly? for instance, i type ls and some other key and bash
> > completes from history?
> 
> If you're using bash, and the command you want to retrieve was typed
> in the last 500 or so commands, try "ctrl-r ls" which should recall
> the most recent command with the string "ls" in it.
> 
> You can also use the "history" command to view your history.  Any
> command in your history can be reused by prefixing its history number
> with a bang ('!').  Thus if history says "422  ls -lAF /usr/local" you
> can type "!422" at a prompt to issue that command again.  history +
> grep can be fun.

I find this a helpful refinement:
$ history | sort -rn | less

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Re: cu program?

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-01-29 at 17:01, John Hasler wrote:
> Ron Johnson writes:
> > Jeez, uucp is, like, /totally/ 80's!
> 
> 70's, actually.  However, it is still quite useful.

Where?

> > Seriously, look for diald, and put it on the modem-server.
> 
> Just configure pppd for demand dialing.  You can do so with pppconfig.

Heck, that's too easy; not geeky enough.

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Re: cdrecord and BIG DISKS - Might help someone

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-01-29 at 17:44, Tim wrote:
> Marc Wilson wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 10:43:35PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > 
> >>Where did you get 900MiB CD-Rs?
> > 
> > 
> > Buy them in a store. ^_^  You can get 90 minute and 99 minute discs now 
> > The 90's usually work in most drives that you can get to do overburn, but
> > the 99's are VERY twitchy because not only do they use the run-out area,
> > but the spiral is tighter 
> 
> So I bought 50 of the 99s a year ago, and read an article a week later 
> which said they can damage the CDRW drive hardware, and I left them in a 
> cupboard.  Can I use them after all?

What if you use them in 700MiB mode?  Maybe that won't hurt them.

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Re: Oh no, what a really heavy bummer

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 07:42, Andreas J Guelzow wrote:
> Pigeon wrote:
> 
>  > On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 03:22:44PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
[snip]
> apt-get --compile source
> 
> is supposed to download the source and
> 
> apt-get --compile source
> 
> is supposed to download it and compile it.

You said the same thing twice.  Purely by accident, of course...

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Re: Oh no, what a really heavy bummer

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-01-29 at 16:26, Pigeon wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 03:22:44PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > Here's how I do it:
> > # apt-get source gqview=1.0.2-1
> > # export CC=gcc-3.2 -Wall -O2 -mcpu=pentiumpro
> > # apt-get --compile source gqview=1.0.2-1
> > # dpkg -i gqview.deb
> >   alternatively:
> > # apt-get --compile source gqview=1.0.2-1
> 
> Hmm. Just tried this... The 'apt-get source' works fine, but the
> 'apt-get --compile' doesn't. It wants to download the whole lot again;
> it appears to have forgotten that it's just done that. (ie, it does
> what man apt-get seems to suggest it will do.)
> 
> Does this mean that I have to put a deb-src file: line in
> sources.list, and cobble together a Packages file to sit in the
> download directory? I've tried this, creating the Packages file by
> cutting out the relevant package from the Debian Packages file and
> changing the package directory to the local one, and it appears to be
> working as I type, but is there a better way of doing it?

Attached is the transscript of exactly what happened when I ran it.

Btw, I used an modified version of the script, which allows it to
be more generic:
  export CC=gcc-3.2
  export CFLAGS='-Wall -O2 -march=pentiumpro'
  export CXX=g++-3.2
  export CFLAGS='-Wall -O2 -m486'
  
  pnam=gqview
  pver='=1.0.2-1'
  
  apt-get source ${pnam}${pver}
  apt-get --compile source ${pnam}${pver}

Note this bit from the "apt-get --compile source ${pnam}${pver}"
command:
   Need to get 647kB of source archives.
   Get:1 http://mirrors.kernel.org sarge/main gqview 1.0.2-1 (dsc) 
  [630B]
   Get:2 http://mirrors.kernel.org sarge/main gqview 1.0.2-1 (tar) 
  [643kB]
   Get:3 http://mirrors.kernel.org sarge/main gqview 1.0.2-1 (diff)
  [3679B]
   Fetched 3B in 0s (13B/s) 
  Skipping unpack of already unpacked source in gqview-1.0.2

So, apt-get goes out to get the source, but sees that the source
already exists in the current directory, and then skips the source
download.

Ron
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build.transcript.txt.gz
Description: GNU Zip compressed data

Re: cu program?

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 11:53, John Hasler wrote:
> I wrote:
> > However, [uucp] is still quite useful.
> 
> Ron Johnson writes:
> > Where?
> 
> Many people use it to handle mail.

But *why*?  POP & SMTP can handle it even over slow or intermittent
lines.

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Re: Slang for money [was: Re: Backup Consensus?]

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 10:56, Nathan E Norman wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 10:08:29AM -0500, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
> > A pound sterling is so-called because it was originally the value of a
> > pound of "sterling" silver.  sterling comes from Easterling which is what
> > German Hanseatic merchants were called during the middle ages.
> 
> I need to read less fiction and more history; to me an easterling is
> someone from beyond the Sea of Rhûn :-)

Who wants to bet where JRRT got "easterling" from

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Re: Download installed .debs??

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 11:39, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> Lars Jensen wrote:
> > How do I re-download copies installed .deb packages that are already on
> > my system? apt-get won't download a package that is already installed.
> 
> apt-get install --reinstall 
> (It'll use the cached .deb's in /var/cache/apt/archives when it finds
> it, though)
> 
> If you really want to _download_ new, rm that deb from the directory
> and run the above command.

Instead of rm'ing the file, how about:
# apt-get -d install --reinstall 
  ^^

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Re: How crazy is it to run 2.4.20 on woody?

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 14:49, nate wrote:
> Andrew Perrin said:
> 
[snip]
> spin down for 10 seconds per 12 hours). There are up to 6 ext3 patches
> for 2.4.20 which are probably a good idea to apply if you plan to use
> ext3.

I wonder if the package kernel-source-2.4.20 (which is currently at
version 2.4.20-5) has those patches.

Even if you get the Debian package, you can install the kernel the
Official Way (as opposed to the Debian Way).

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Re: [OT] Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-02-02 at 11:30, sean finney wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 07:13:02AM +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > The slashdot post was about Redhat in space. I doubt if it was
> > actually on board the shuttle in question. But that is neither
> > here nor there. I feel sad. The tragic loss aside, it also means
> > that the manned space program will be set back by another couple
> > of years. We're now farther away from 2001 than Arthur C. Clarke
> > and Stanley Kubrick was in 1968.
> 
> well, i wouldn't be as worried about it now as i would have in 1986
> with the challenger disaster, for a couple reasons:
> 
> - the american public is more accepting of this tragedy and willing
>   to move on
> - we have a couple astronauts in a space station who will need food
>   sometime in june at the very latest

As much of a fan of "space" science fiction that I am, the pragmatist
in me must wonder if space planes will ever become practical until
some new, relatively compact and light-weight, thrust generating energy
source is invented.

Also, the *incredible* re-enrty speeds and friction will have to some-
how be ameliorated.  (We're all impressed when the SR-71 travels at
Mach 3 at 26,000 meters, and it's titanium body expands so much to seal
the fuel tanks, but Columbia was traveling at Mach 17 and the nose of
the craft was so hot that it turned the atmosphere into plasma!)

And it goes w/o saying that artificial gravity (that can be powered by
the same enery source that propells the ship) will have to be invented
so that man's skeletal system won't fall apart during prolonged space
travel.  (Also, imagine how huch easier it would make eating, sleeping,
shaving, deficating, etc...)

Saddened,
Ron
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Re: columbia -- what really happened

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-02-03 at 14:11, Craig Dickson wrote:
> martin f krafft wrote:
> 
> > also sprach karrottop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003.02.03.2003 +0100]:
> > > Are republican bashers really so bored that they have to post crap like
> > > this in a debian mail list.  Download some friends and tell them your
> > > propoganda.  Try opening up a live journal, then you can still hear your
> > > self type without annoying others
> > 
> > Just ignore these types, they are not worth the attention. Instead, go
> > here:
> > 
> >   http://www.netaxs.com/~jeffc/how-fast-is-it.jpg
> 
> Yeah, now THERE's proof of the effectiveness of Republican leadership.
> No Democratic administration could EVER build a shuttle that goes THAT
> fast...

Unfortunately, it's just proof that so many in the media are tres'
clueless.

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Re: [OT] Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-02-03 at 17:01, Kenward Vaughan wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 10:26:57AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> ...
> > As much of a fan of "space" science fiction that I am, the pragmatist
> > in me must wonder if space planes will ever become practical until
> > some new, relatively compact and light-weight, thrust generating energy
> > source is invented.
> > 
> > Also, the *incredible* re-enrty speeds and friction will have to some-
> > how be ameliorated.  (We're all impressed when the SR-71 travels at
> > Mach 3 at 26,000 meters, and it's titanium body expands so much to seal
> > the fuel tanks, but Columbia was traveling at Mach 17 and the nose of
> > the craft was so hot that it turned the atmosphere into plasma!)
> > 
> > And it goes w/o saying that artificial gravity (that can be powered by
> > the same enery source that propells the ship) will have to be invented
> > so that man's skeletal system won't fall apart during prolonged space
> > travel.  (Also, imagine how huch easier it would make eating, sleeping,
> > shaving, deficating, etc...)
> > 
> > Saddened,
> > Ron
> 
> Of course, to get there, we have to continue pushing...

BUT... in which direction do we push?  

Do we (well, does NASA, but you know what I mean) continue to spend
BILLIONS flying the Shuttles (for a couple of weeks per trip), and
yet more BILLIONS to let a few astronauts live up in the tiny ISS?

Or... do we put all the money into as-yet-unknown radically different
propulsion technologies?

> (Not suggesting your post implied otherwise, but someone is already shouting
> that in this neck of the woods.)

Those who do are mush-brains who have a distorted understanding of
compasssion.

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|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
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RE: columbia -- what really happened

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 01:02, Joyce, Matthew wrote:
> > 
> >  Guys...it's a bit sad when some very brave people died in 
> > Columbia to be talking stuff like this...i agree with Vincent 
> > that comments like this are not necessary.  Spare a moments 
> > thought (or longer if possible) for those brave Astronauts 
> > and their families who will no doubt endure a lot of pain for 
> > a long time at their loss.  
> > 
> 
> I feel sorry for their families, kinda hard to feel sorry for astronauts.  
> As for bravery, no I don't think they are brave either.

You've *got* to be kidding, right?

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Re: knowledge

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 13:45, Craig Dickson wrote:
> Paul E Condon wrote:
> 
> > Suppose, all human life were to perish. In that case would the value of 
> > pi (3.14...) perish as well?
> 
> The value of pi is dependent on the geometrical concept of a "circle"
> having a "radius" and a "circumference". These are human-created ideas,
> not a priori "facts" existing in the universe. So if there were no
> humans around (nor any other beings that view the world similarly), then
> pi would have no meaning.
> 
> A slightly better (because seemingly less abstract) example would be
> gravity. Without humans, would there still be a gravitational force? Or
> to put it another way, did Newton "discover" or "create" gravity? Well,

He discovered ("take the cover off of") the mathematical model that
rules the universe.

> on the one hand, objects behave today just as they did before Newton,
> and will presumably continue to behave the same way if Newton and his
> works are forgotten. But to say that there is a "force" of gravity is
> not a statement about the universe; it is a mental model, essentially a
> metaphor, that is useful for describing the observed behavior of the
> universe. To say that "There is a force called 'gravity' which draws
> masses together" is semantically imprecise. It is better to say,
> "Objects in the observable universe behave AS IF there were a force
> which draws masses together." Gravitational force is a metaphor, not a
> fact, created by humans as a way of describing the observed (by humans)
> behavior of objects. It has no necessary value to other (hypothetical)
> beings who may view the world quite differently and may have come up
> with their own ways of talking about the phenomena they observe. So
> without humans, in a sense there would be no more gravity -- not that
> the universe would behave any differently in consequence.

Heh, it sounds like you've been to one too many philosophy class...

So, there would obviously not be the *word* gravity, but there would
still be attractions between masses in the manner in which *we*
describe as F = G(MaMb/r^2).

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|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
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Re: need access to old bzip'ed file

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 14:56, David Teague wrote:
> Fellow Debian faithful:
> 
> I need to access many backup files that are quite old. These were
> compressed with a version of bzip prior to bzip2.  I cannot access them.
> Here is what the 'file' utility says about one of them:
> 
> $file files/old/elentari/a/refinit.cpp.bz
> files/old/elentari/a/refinit.cpp.bz: bzip compressed data, version: 0,
> compression block size 900k
> $bunzip files/old/elentari/a/refinit.cpp.bz
> bash: bunzip: command not found
> $bunzip2 files/old/elentari/a/refinit.cpp.bz
> bunzip2: files/old/elentari/a/refinit.cpp.bz is not a bzip2 file.
> 
> 
> I have looked but I cannot find a version of bzip before bzip2. If I find
> a binary (I have binary Debian CDs back to 0.93) I won't be able to run it
> because libraries aren't that backward compatible.
> 
> If I find the sources for the earlier version of bzip, shouldn't I be able
> to compile and run it?

After Google and about 5 minutes, I found this:
http://www.openbsd.org/2.8_packages/i386/bzip-0.21.tgz-long.html

After a little more Googling, I found this:
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/archivers/bzip/

It may not be what you need, but it's a start...

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|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: knowledge

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:02, Craig Dickson wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
[snip]
> My favorite quote from Stephen Hawking is one where he was contrasting
> his view of quantum theory with that of Roger Penrose in a Scientific
> American article several years ago. He wrote (this may not be word
> perfect, as I no longer have the article), "Roger doesn't like quantum
> theory because he doesn't believe that a cat can be dead and alive at
> the same time. He thinks that can't correspond to reality. But I don't
> know _anything_ about reality. All I care about is that a theory can be
> used to successfully predict the results of experiments. By that
> standard, quantum theory has been very successful."

I'm inherently(sp?) suspicious of any theory which is only really
understood by a half-dozen people.  Many parts of Quantum Theory 
meet that criteria.

-- 
+--------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: columbia -- what really happened

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 19:49, Russell wrote:
> Vikki Roemer wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 06:02:21PM +1100, Joyce, Matthew wrote:
> > 
> ...
> > OTOH, space exploration and research improves everyone's lives-- new
> > medicines and medical techniques, etc.  So how is it a waste?  How is
> > it anymore of a waste than welfare and socialized medicine?  Not
> > trying to start a flame war, just asking a serious question here--
> > welfare just rewards people for being lazy and not working, in my
> > experience.  Believe me, I knew a lot of kids in school who *aspired*
> > to 'being like my parents' or 'being like [best friend's] parents' and
> > being paid to sit around at home all day and have fun, collecting
> > welfare. *sigh*

If anyone wonders why Republicans (and Regan Democrats) get so angry
with the goverment, this is it...

> IMHO, space work should be only unmanned satellite launches, with all
> the saved money used on more fusion power programs. Space exploration
> should proceed after making a viable source of long lasting fusion power.

You are The Man!  Although I think it shouldn't just be fusion power,
since fusion "generators" might not be able to be made small enough
or clean enough for ships take off and land.

The concept of "H-bombs and pusher plates" for deep space travel sounds
pretty cool, though.  The "only" problems are developing a strong-
enough pusher plate, and withstanding the incredible bursts of accel-
eration...

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: knowledge

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 22:10, Shyamal Prasad wrote:
> "Ron" == Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Ron> I'm inherently(sp?) suspicious of any theory which is only
> Ron> really understood by a half-dozen people.  Many parts of
> Ron> Quantum Theory meet that criteria.
> 
> Hmmm...could you name some? Being an ex-grad student who did some
> fairly esoteric quantum physics, I'm betting that any part of quantum

Some of the 1/2 dozen people, or some of the parts of quantum physics?
No.  But when I read articles on discoveries in quantum physics, it
just seems like the "the simplest hypothesis that agrees with the data"
law doesn't get followed very often.

> physics is understood by at least as many people as, say, the number
> of people who've read every line of code in the O(1) scheduler for
> Linux ;-)

Read the code, or understood the code?
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if lot of people have read and
understood the O(1) scheduler code.  Even kernel programming is less
dense than quantum physics.

> Sorry, I just could not resist responding to a mistrust of quantum
> physics. How did this get started on debian-user anyway?

The thread should be in the archives.  In the "Re: [OT] Re: shuttle
disaster" commented on a sig block praising teachers, and then someone
else made some philosophical comment, and we took it from there...

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: Need help: tar and huge files

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 19:52, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Over the past weekend I had a meltdown on my server's only HD.  The best
> I could do was nab some tars from the filesystems using LNX-BBC, move
> them over the network to a Windows box, reformat and reinstall.

Shame, shame, shame!!!  Why didn't you back up your data???

[snip]
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get that file out from the tar so I
> may access the files that reside after it in the tar?  There's about
> 2,000 more files in there I'd really like to pull out.  1/2 my home dir,

Could you do 1,999 single file extractions, thus leaving the bad file
in the tarball?  bash should make doing that /relatively/ easy...

-- 
+------------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: columbia -- what really happened

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 11:39, Craig Dickson wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > I believe the fastest way to get bipartisan support for a manned
> > mission to Mars is to convince the politicians that the mainland
> > Chinese are going to get there first.
> 
> Thus giving new meaning to the idea that Mars is "red"...

And dusty!

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_storm_update_011011.html

http://www.gluckman.com/ChinaDesert.html
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/01/29/china.desert/

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
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||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: columbia -- what really happened

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 12:09, Pigeon wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 11:35:20PM -0500, David P James wrote:
> > Brooks R. Robinson wrote:
[snip]
> What do you think of the Culture economy? All work is done by
> machines, which are designed to work properly and last for millennia -
> fully upgradeable, of course. So no-one has to worry about going
> hungry or any other physical need, or want. The Luddites never saw
> this far ahead. For all our technology, we're still Luddites today.

That would be *the*worst* plan, as shown by the multiple generations
of the same families on welfare.  They have not bettered themselves.
Also, look at the "old money" rich, who don't have to work.  The
Kennedys and the DuPonts aren't paragons of moral virtue...

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
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||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: c program chart, scheme, plan

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 15:28, Andrei Smirnov wrote:
> Hi all!
> Are there any tools for creating a graphical representation
> of a (future) program ? (with those boxes, arrows etc.)
> I mean, which can be integrated into an environment, including
> a documentation system.

You mean something that will generate C code directly from your
flow charts?

> And, in general, what tools, editors, other things you are using
> to facilitate c (or other languages) development ?

vim, make, automake, autoconf, cvs, etc...

-- 
+------------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 22:50, Pigeon wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 11:41:19AM -0600, DvB wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > 
> > > On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 22:36:45 +,
> > > Pigeon wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...]
[snip]
> I can think of a few off the top of my head:
> - run mobile power plants (vehicles, locomotives) off RME or alcohol
> - design the products of industry to last ten times as long as they do
> at the moment, and reduce industrial output by 90%

Unfortunately, the world economy would crash.

> - impose a 1% cashflow tax on the oil industry and put the money into
> fusion research

The petroleum industry is already highly taxed in the West.

> - put sails on ships

Yankee Clippers were covered with sails, but were only a small fraction
of the gross tonnage of modern cargo ships.  It would be impractical.

> They all suffer from the problem that people who currently make vast
> amounts of money out of fossil fuels won't be able to any more. I have
> an unpleasant suspicion that we'll be dependent on fossil fuels until
> they actually run out and force us to do something else. Science can
> find lots of solutions, politics/greed are the problems when it comes
> to putting them into practice.

The "problem" is that gasoline & diesel are very convenient & high-
density fuels.

I'm pretty confident that a decent minorty of US cars will be using
fuel cells in 15 years.

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 09:22, DvB wrote:
> Nathan E Norman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 11:34:51PM -0600, DvB wrote:
> > > "James Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > 
> > > > Famine victims OK, but nobody has mentioned the people living in
> > > > poverty in America.  Boost welfare, more education funding, subsidise
> > > > pay rises for the lowest paid workers... ooops, America's budget all
> > > > gone ;-)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Of course! If we spent that much, people with enough money to have
> > > significant amounts of it in taxable stock accounts wouldn't be able to
> > > keep it all!
> > > 
> > 
> > Yeah, after all it's not their money .. they just worked hard to earn
> > it.
> > 
> 
> 
> You don't "work hard" for stock dividends. You just put your money in
> stocks and they come all by themselves... although I guess I did word
> that a little strangely.

Well, you worked hard to get the money to purchase the stocks in
the 1st place...

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 03:59, James Buchanan wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 11:34:51PM -0600, DvB wrote:
> > > "James Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >
> > > > Famine victims OK, but nobody has mentioned the people living in
> > > > poverty in America.  Boost welfare, more education funding,
> subsidise
> > > > pay rises for the lowest paid workers... ooops, America's budget
> all
> > > > gone ;-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > 
> > > Of course! If we spent that much, people with enough money to have
> > > significant amounts of it in taxable stock accounts wouldn't be
> able to
> > > keep it all!
> > > 
> >
> > Yeah, after all it's not their money .. they just worked hard to
> earn
> > it.
> 
> I've lost the thread here, I don't really "get" the joke - can someone
> explain this for me please.  Maybe it's because I'm not American.  :-)

It seems as if there's a lot of (US) Americans on the list who think
that Federal projects are a very good way to solve many/most of
society's ills, and thus taxes are a Good Thing.  Likewise, there 
seems to be another faction that thinks that gov't mostly can't find
it's arse with both hands, a map, a flashlight (electric torch), and
GPS, and thus excess taxes are a Bad Thing, because, by and large,
the Private & NGO sectors can do a more efficient job with the money.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 17:01, DvB wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 03:59, James Buchanan wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 11:34:51PM -0600, DvB wrote:
> > > > > "James Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Famine victims OK, but nobody has mentioned the people living in
> > > > > > poverty in America.  Boost welfare, more education funding,
> > > subsidise
> > > > > > pay rises for the lowest paid workers... ooops, America's budget
> > > all
> > > > > > gone ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > Of course! If we spent that much, people with enough money to have
> > > > > significant amounts of it in taxable stock accounts wouldn't be
> > > able to
> > > > > keep it all!
> > > > > 
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, after all it's not their money .. they just worked hard to
> > > earn
> > > > it.
> > > 
> > > I've lost the thread here, I don't really "get" the joke - can someone
> > > explain this for me please.  Maybe it's because I'm not American.  :-)
> > 
> > It seems as if there's a lot of (US) Americans on the list who think
> > that Federal projects are a very good way to solve many/most of
> > society's ills, and thus taxes are a Good Thing.  Likewise, there 
> > seems to be another faction that thinks that gov't mostly can't find
> > it's arse with both hands, a map, a flashlight (electric torch), and
> > GPS, and thus excess taxes are a Bad Thing, because, by and large,
> > the Private & NGO sectors can do a more efficient job with the money.
> 
> In that case, you should probably move to do away with the
> government. The government is, by definition, a way for society to pool
> its resources for the common good (mostly by providing services like law
> enforcement, education, health care, utilities and
> transportation). Governments also aren't normally able to pull money out
> of their arses (even if they could find them with both hands, a map, a
> flashlight and a GPS) and, hence, rely on specific sources of income
> (mostly taxes) to implement and run these services.
[snip large rant]

Note I used the word "excess" when referring to that position on The
Issue Of Government Competence.

Only anarchists believe that government should not exist, and American
conservatives & libertarians are most emphatically *not* anarchists.
They more or less believe in a limited Federal government.

-- 
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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 19:23, Paul E Condon wrote:
> Gary Turner wrote:
> 
> >DvB wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Nathan E Norman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
[snip]
> >
> >Where the hell do you think the money came from?  If an investor can't
> >
> Actually, all money comes from the government, and the government uses 
> the banking system to distribute it. Try producing your own money. You 
> won't have much success.

/Cash/ comes from the government.  Since we left the precious metals
standard, they money the money that I get direct deposited into my
bank account, and with which I write checks & use online banking to
pay bills with is all hypothetical, and is based on how stable we think
society is.  

Oh, and yes, the rules governing how numbers move between ledger sheets
also comes from the government...

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 20:57, Gary Turner wrote:
> Paul E Condon wrote:
> 
> >Gary Turner wrote:
> >
> >>DvB wrote:
> >>
> >>>Nathan E Norman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>>
> >>
[snip]
> eg.  Actually, all goods and services come from the government...Try
> producing your own goods and services.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what are you talking about.  People
and corporations produce their own goods and services every day.

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 22:33, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 05:41:45PM -0600, Gary Turner wrote:
> > Now, just exactly why should someone risk their capital to provide you a
> > service without expecting a positive return?  It looks like what you
> > really want is for someone else to pay for what you [want to] use.  If
> > you're not willing to pay full fare, maybe you don't really want it as
> > much as you say.
> 
> I don't mind them trying to turn a profit, but if any private
> organisation can do it better, faster and cheaper than any government
> organisation, why doesn't every American city have fast, reliable,
> extensive bus service rivalling that of Portland for around the same
> price as Portland?  If you can replace TriMet and turn a profit, by
> all means, give it a shot.  It'll be nice having double the coverage
> for the short time that'll last.

How much are the city/state/feds subsidizing TriMet?

How much of the operations of TriMet have been contracted out to
private enterprise to lower the goverment's expenses?

I bet that if a city/regional transit system is even close to 
breaking even, then an honest private enterprise could turn a
profit.  (By honest, I mean that the city managers weren't bribed,
or given large campaign donations, and the company isn't using
Enronesque accounting practices.)

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| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 22:38, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 09:12:36PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > Only anarchists believe that government should not exist, and American
> > conservatives & libertarians are most emphatically *not* anarchists.
> > They more or less believe in a limited Federal government.
> 
> So when do they start practicing what they preach?  Within my
> lifetime, Reagan put the US $3 trillion dollars into the hole, the
> first Bush added another trillion dollars and the largest tax increase
> in American history, the current Bush proposes increased millitary
> spending and shifting the tax burden on the poor and the single
> largest increase in federal staff (Department of Homeland Security,
> with most of it in the Transportation Safety Administration).

Ummm, somehow I don't think that when W was inaugurated, he was planning
on having these new burdens placed on the Federal budget...

> Oddly, wasn't it under the Clinton administration that we saw an
> increase in human services and still turned a surplus without
> increasing taxes?  Seems like that's the kind of economics we should
> be aiming for; hopefully we'll return to something like that before
> the tax-and-spend conservatives kill us economically and socially.

Don't forget that this isn't an elective dictatorship.  

I'm sure that if Reagan & Clinton could have been dictators, the 
country would look *VERY* different now.  
There were Dems and liberal Republicans fighting Reagan every step of
the way, and most Republicans were fighting Clinton every step of the
way.  Reagan wanted to shutter the Education Dept, slash welfare
spending.
Clinton wanted to nationalize heath care, but neither happened.  The
Republicans forced Clinton to operate within the Budget Agreement,
and pass welfare reform.

Another Reagan example: TEFRA. The Dems promised to cut spending if
Reagan would raise taxes.  Guess who broke their promises.  Reagan then
knew he didn't have the political capital to fight for lower domestic
spending AND fight the Cold War the way he thought it should be spent.
So, since he thought that defeating The Evil Empire (no more Mutually
Assured Destruction!) was more important than deficit spending, he had
to make his choice.

A Law Of Unintended Consequences way that Reagan caused the deficit
to baloon: the 1986 tax simplification caused lots of real estate 
ventures to become unprofitable.  Thus, the S&L Crisis.

Oh, guess who came into office right around the time that the S&L's
finally got paid off?  Right...  Clinton!  So without lifting a finger,
the budget got a lot closer to being balanced, and Clinton took all
the credit.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 22:20, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 09:52:57PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > eg.  Actually, all goods and services come from the government...Try
> > > producing your own goods and services.
> > 
> > Maybe I'm missing something, but what are you talking about.  People
> > and corporations produce their own goods and services every day.
> 
> Maybe you missed the rest of his post, which read "s/money/goods and
> services" followed by what you quoted, followed by "It's easy to
> forget that money is the reference and the reference is not an
> object."

But that's wrong.  These two quotes contradict each other:
"s/money/goods and services"
"It's easy to forget that money is the reference and the reference is
not an object." 

There is still the "Actually, all goods and services come from the
government...Try producing your own goods and services." quote, which
is only true in extreme dictatorships...

> And he's right.  Money is basically the medium through which goods and
> services are evaluated and rewarded, it's a point system and not an
> object in and of itself.

No one is arguing that.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 22:16, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 05:46:12PM -0600, Gary Turner wrote:
> > Where the hell do you think the money came from?  If an investor can't
> > expect a return, why should he put himself at risk?
> 
> It's basically gambling picking a stock that'll last long enough and
> perform well enough to create dividends.  Furthermore, the payoff
> frequently is drastically disproportionately high relative to the
> individual effort put in to creating that wealth:  I see it basically
> as tricking some stupid asshole into giving you a $20 for a $5.
> That's not working, that's being a crook.

Paul & I definitely agree here.

IMO, the only *real* investors are the original stock purchasers.

-- 
+--------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 00:14, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 11:24:41PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
[snip]
> I think government pretty much mops up after the services that aren't
> "sexy" enough for private enterprise to think of it (rapid transit,
> police, fire) and should take control of services everybody needs

Ever heard of private security guards?  It must be sexy enough for
someone...

> (schools, health care, utilities) that private enterprise has abused
> (price-fixing, racketeering, etc).  That should be the new threat to

You haven't seen New Orleans City Hall, have you?  It is chock full of
Past Masters at corruption, stupidity, laziness, etc.

> businesses behaving badly:  Shape up or we take it.

Things must be different up in Oregon, because, here, for instance, even
low-income people will go into debt to get their kids out of the public
schools, and a 1/2 dozen policemen in the pennitentiary, one on death
row, for killing the woman who was to testify against him, and a
policewoman on death row for killing someone who double-crossed her
while she was guarding a drug ring while on duty.  (Note that this is
in a small city, not New York, w/ it's 50,000 police!)

And don't get me started about the streets!  A national survey shows
that New Orleans has the 2nd worst streets in the country.

-- 
+--------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 00:27, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 11:55:06PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > Ummm, somehow I don't think that when W was inaugurated, he was planning
> > on having these new burdens placed on the Federal budget...
> 
> Yeah, but that only accounts for the Afghan War last year, and
> *possibly* North Korea.  Iraq is his own doing here.

You mentioned "Department of Homeland Security, with most of it in the
Transportation Safety Administration".  That would have happened with
or without Iraq.

Oh, and btw, it was the Democrats pushing to have all of the baggage
screeners federalized, in the notion that would somehow make them
competent.

> > Clinton wanted to nationalize heath care, but neither happened.  The
> > Republicans forced Clinton to operate within the Budget Agreement,
> > and pass welfare reform.
> 
> Like I was saying, they expect more out of the Democrats than they
> themselves practice.

Political sniping is played by both sides, remember.

> > Oh, guess who came into office right around the time that the S&L's
> > finally got paid off?  Right...  Clinton!  So without lifting a finger,
> > the budget got a lot closer to being balanced, and Clinton took all
> > the credit.
> 
> He gets to take the credit because he wasn't the cause of the screwup
> to begin with.  And things didn't start looking significantly better

Bzzzt.  If George 41 had been re-elected, the S&L cleanup would have
occured on the same schedule, anyway.  (And the Dems wouldn't have 
lost the House...)

> until around the fifth or sixth Clinton year, *long* after Reagan and
> Bush were out of the picture and the S&Ls were paid off.  When did

I firmly disagree.

> things break down again?  Almost immediately after Bush took office.

And we still disagree on this point.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 02:37, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 01:40:27AM -0600, Nathan E Norman wrote:
> > I love the liberals who have no qualms about sending the military to
> > important, strategic places like Somalia and Bosnia, cut the funding
> > for the military at the same time, and then raise holy hell when
> > something goes wrong.  Why, it almost seems hypocritical.
> 
> I'm more for the pre-World-War-II stance of "you leave us alone, we
> leave you alone; you attack us, we blast your ass back to the stone
> age and go home."  Waiting until attacked first means we don't have to
> do any of that nation building bullshit afterwards.  It's also cheaper
> and puts fewer people, soldiers or otherwise, on both sides in harms
> way.

Ya know, I've always wondered why Hitler declared war on us.  We never
did anything to him.  He was fighting the Godless Communists, and a
significant minority of Americans were anti-Semitic...  The usual reason
is that we declared war on Japan.  Well, heck.  He ignored treaties
before.  Why not ignore the Axis Treaty?  It would have kept us out of
the war long enough to starve England.  Then he could have easily
conquored it.

But, of course, he was insane.  Otherwise, why invade Russia?

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: [OT] Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 15:15, will trillich wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 10:02:09AM -0800, Paul E Condon wrote:
> > Hal Vaughan wrote: Alchemists had three generally accepted
[snip]
> > Is there a parallel to alchemy in the modern world?
> 
> aids research, and cancer research, to name a few. the moment
> anybody thinks they've got a cure, they'll disappear so their
> bosses will be able to keep the house in the hamptons. too big a
> business, by now, to be shut down by actual success.

Do you have any proof of this illogical assertion?

Logic: people are going to be getting cancer for a long, long time, 
so the money made from all those sick people will be magnatudes greater
than any money recieved, from say, research grants.   Besides, there's
always something else to cure...

-- 
+------------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 05:00, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 03:20:37AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > I think government pretty much mops up after the services that aren't
> > > "sexy" enough for private enterprise to think of it (rapid transit,
> > > police, fire) and should take control of services everybody needs
> > 
> > Ever heard of private security guards?  It must be sexy enough for
> > someone...
> 
> Yes, I have.  I currently am one (and I'm lucky enough to be on a
> stationary post screening people at an infrequently travelled side
> door to a hospital; something to pass the time until they find me a
> new beat to drive or make me a dispatcher, sure beats working labor
> lockouts).  While I'm sure my company and any other security company
> would be glad to try and take on an entire city, the problem is, what
> private business would hire us to protect an entire city?  Anybody who
> has studied the history of policing and security knows this was
> already essentially answered centuries ago in England: Nobody.  If the
> government doesn't provide police, nobody will hire the gaurds to do
> it.

Well, fortunately, conservatives think that the police & the military
should always be under the control of the State...

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 12:00, DvB wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 00:14, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 11:24:41PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > businesses behaving badly:  Shape up or we take it.
> > 
> > Things must be different up in Oregon, because, here, for instance, even
> > low-income people will go into debt to get their kids out of the public
> > schools, and a 1/2 dozen policemen in the pennitentiary, one on death
> > row, for killing the woman who was to testify against him, and a
> > policewoman on death row for killing someone who double-crossed her
> > while she was guarding a drug ring while on duty.  (Note that this is
> > in a small city, not New York, w/ it's 50,000 police!)
> > 
> 
> You seem to be suggesting that there's a lot of corruption in your
> society (and I would agree. I live close enough to La. to know). what
> makes you think privitizing things would make any difference? Why?

My point was to counteract the "businesses behaving badly:  Shape up or
we take it" philosophy, reminding certain members of the list that
government isn't the Be All And End All.

In fact, as shown by the push for school vouchers and standardized
testing, the same "businesses behaving badly:  Shape up or we take it."
philosophy has been turned.

Remember, the US as founded on "Government of the People, By the People,
and For the People", and not vide versa, so when government (specifcally
Civil Servants) behaves very badly, the people have a obligation to
"take it back".

Now, whether that means privatization or replacing the existing Civil
Servants, must obviously be looked at on a case-by-case basis...

> > And don't get me started about the streets!  A national survey shows
> > that New Orleans has the 2nd worst streets in the country.
> > 
> 
> Yes, the south is known for it's urban sprawl and poor planning. Where I
> live, the central city has terrible streets and crumbling infrastructure
> while my tax dollars get spent to provide new roads and services in far
> outlying areas that I'll probably never visit in my entire life (BTW,
> N.O. streets are, IMO, better than the ones where I live).

That's pretty darned bad!  Maybe (a) your city's citizens haven't gotten
fed up enough with the status quo, and (b) a viable reform candidate
hasn't appeared yet.  Here in N.O, it took some black men who were
respected by the full spectrum of society, powerful enough to effect
change, yet outside of the existing, corrupt power structure, to *begin*
to effect change.

Bizarrely(sp?) enough, that turned out to be the branch manager of the
region's cable company!

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 12:06, DvB wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 00:27, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 11:55:06PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > > Ummm, somehow I don't think that when W was inaugurated, he was planning
> > > > on having these new burdens placed on the Federal budget...
> > > 
> > > Yeah, but that only accounts for the Afghan War last year, and
> > > *possibly* North Korea.  Iraq is his own doing here.
> > 
> > You mentioned "Department of Homeland Security, with most of it in the
> > Transportation Safety Administration".  That would have happened with
> > or without Iraq.
> > 
> > Oh, and btw, it was the Democrats pushing to have all of the baggage
> > screeners federalized, in the notion that would somehow make them
> > competent.
> > 
> 
> Last time I flew, I was actually very impressed with the competence of
> the baggage screeners relative to the old ones. I made comments to
> friends and family to that effect.

I wonder if the old ones were fired?  Would adequate pay have attracted
competent workers in the 1st place?  We'll never know...

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 12:18, David P James wrote:
> Travis Crump wrote:
> > Ron Johnson wrote:
> > 
> >> On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 20:57, Gary Turner wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >>> eg.  Actually, all goods and services come from the government...Try
> >>> producing your own goods and services.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm missing something, but what are you talking about.  People
> >> and corporations produce their own goods and services every day.
> >>
> > 
> > People and corporations produce their own money every day as well;  have 
> > you ever written a check?  Try coming up with a difference between 
> > checks, iou's, deeds, stock certificates, bonds, etc. and government 
> > produced money that isn't circular, ie "the first set isn't money 
> > because it is not government backed"  Have you ever gone to a fair or 
> > arcade where you have to buy 'tokens' to pay for the games/rides?  What 
> > are the tokens if they aren't money?
> > 
> > 
> 
> I'll give you a difference: liquidity. There are also differing degrees 
> of transferability and risk associated with all the forms of assets that 
> you've listed. I can't just use the tokens anywhere; they are probably 
> only redeemable at that particular arcade, though I might be able to 
> sell them to another arcade-goer at par or at a discount.
> 
> -- 
> David P. James
> 4th Year Economics Student
> Queen's University

David,

You're missing the point, which is that "money", when it has no
intrinsic value (or backed by that which has intrinsic value, for
example, precious metals), become only, as another on the thread aptly
put it, "a means of keeping score", and is based on faith.  I don't 
know what Canadian Dollars say on them, but greenbacks say this right
above the dead President's head "Federal Reserve *Note*".  So if I
go to Fort Knox, they won't give me gold in exchange for my cash,
they'll just give me different US currency, who's face value equals
my original amount of cash.  (Well, either that, or laugh me off the
base...)

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 13:17, David P James wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Ya know, I've always wondered why Hitler declared war on us.  We never
> > did anything to him.  He was fighting the Godless Communists, and a
> > significant minority of Americans were anti-Semitic...  The usual reason
> > is that we declared war on Japan.  Well, heck.  He ignored treaties
> > before.  Why not ignore the Axis Treaty?  It would have kept us out of
> > the war long enough to starve England.  Then he could have easily
> > conquored it.
> > 
> 
> Easily? How? They couldn't manage to invade even when Britain was in the 
> weak state that it was in the fall of 1940, never mind later. The Battle 

Because of lack of air superiority.  My thought was "conquor via treaty
with starving nation".

> of the Atlantic was basically won in 1942 by the British and the 
> Canadians before there was any significant American contribution to the 
> war, and it is that battle that Germany would have had to have won to 
> have been able to "starve England".

I dunno about that...

http://www.navalmuseum.ab.ca/atlantic.html
"Between August 1942 and May 1943, shipping losses and loss of life was
appalling, particularly when compared to relatively small enemy U-boat
losses."

"In May 1943, the battle began to turn in favor of the allies. Loss of
shipping declined significantly and 41 U-boats were sunk during the
month of May alone."

http://www.theworldatwar.com/feature.htm
"Above all the use of aircraft, ... over the Atlantic Gap (now closed by
very long-range B24 Liberator bombers), brought a high level of loss to
the submarine arm."

Hmm, who built all those B-24s, I wonder?

However...
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/atlantic.html
Even through mid-1942, "Brit. & Canada providing 98% of all escorts".

> The Americans liberated Continental Europe. But they did not save 
> Britain. Arguably Canada did, but not the United States.

Oh, and don't forget about Lend Lease & "ships for bases".  There's
no getting around it.  Face it: GB would have been sunk (pun intended)
without the US.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 14:32, Geordie Birch wrote:
> said Ron Johnson (on 2003-02-08),
> 
> > > you've listed. I can't just use the tokens anywhere; they are probably
> > > only redeemable at that particular arcade, though I might be able to
> > > sell them to another arcade-goer at par or at a discount.
> 
> or you could control the supply by hoarding them and sell them at a
> premium.  ;)

Well, that's where the "arcade tokens as money" analog breaks down,
in regard to inflation: the arcade can just make (well, buy) more
tokens, and will be none the worse for wear, but, of course, it doesn't
work the same way in the real economy.

-- 
+----+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 15:21, Geordie Birch wrote:
> said David P James (on 2003-02-08),
> 
> > Travis Crump wrote:
> > > Ron Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 20:57, Gary Turner wrote:
[snip]
> And I can spend my Canadian dollars in Canada, but good luck trying to get
> rid of them in a town like Arcata California, or Berkeley even.  US
> dollars on the other hand can be used with no problems in many small
> retail outlets in Canada.  Big liquidity difference between the two.

I'm sure that a Bank would exchange it for you.

-- 
+--------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 15:12, David P James wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 12:18, David P James wrote:
> > 
> >>Travis Crump wrote:
> >>
> 
> >>>
> >>>People and corporations produce their own money every day as well;  have 
> >>>you ever written a check?  Try coming up with a difference between 
> >>>checks, iou's, deeds, stock certificates, bonds, etc. and government 
> >>>produced money that isn't circular, ie "the first set isn't money 
> >>>because it is not government backed"  Have you ever gone to a fair or 
> >>>arcade where you have to buy 'tokens' to pay for the games/rides?  What 
> >>>are the tokens if they aren't money?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I'll give you a difference: liquidity. There are also differing degrees 
> >>of transferability and risk associated with all the forms of assets that 
> >>you've listed. I can't just use the tokens anywhere; they are probably 
> >>only redeemable at that particular arcade, though I might be able to 
> >>sell them to another arcade-goer at par or at a discount.
> >>
> 
> > 
> > David,
> > 
> > You're missing the point, which is that "money", when it has no
> > intrinsic value (or backed by that which has intrinsic value, for
> > example, precious metals), become only, as another on the thread aptly
> > put it, "a means of keeping score", and is based on faith.  
> 
> Granted that money is a special form of asset because of its other roles 
> as a unit of account and medium of exchange but in terms of having no 
> intrinsic value it's not really alone as bonds, stock certificates, 
> checks or arcade tokens don't have any intrinsic value either, and 
> aren't generally backed by anything that has intrinsic value (except 
> maybe the tokens, which are backed by a promise of a real "service"). 
> The "difference" is that all the above (except the tokens) are backed by 
> a promise of money, which, as we have determined, has no intrinsic 
> value, so, in that sense, they're all issued and acquired based on the 
> same faith of the financial system's stability plus some faith in the 
> stability of the debtor.

Au contrere (contraire?), bonds are *secured* debt (say, by that factory
that was built from the proceeds of the bond sale), and stock cer-
tificates confer partial ownership, and, thus, if the corporation
were to be liquidated, the holder of the stock certificate(s) would
get an appropriate % of the net assets.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: [OT] Re: shuttle disaster (Socrates)

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 10:57, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 11:26:44AM -0500, Mike M wrote:
> > In America, we say, "Those who can, do. Those that can't, teach."
> 
> An interesting retcon. That's a quote from George Bernard Shaw, an
> Irishman, who also said: "Americans adore me and will go on adoring me
> until I say something nice about them."

That's only the self-flagellators.  The rest of us would just tell him
to go fsck himself...

-- 
+--------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 23:37, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 01:27:42PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > I wonder if the old ones were fired?  Would adequate pay have attracted
> > competent workers in the 1st place?  We'll never know...
> 
> Not necissarily.  The old ones working for private security agencies
> were given preferential hiring with the TSA to stay on that post.  Not
> all got hired by the TSA, and the only reason you wouldn't get hired
> is if thier testing or your work history showed to them that you just
> didn't have your shit together.  The ones not hired by TSA that stayed
> with thier private company would have either been assigned to a
> different post or laid off if losing the airport contract put them in
> an overstaffed situation.  The ones hired by the TSA get to do roughly
> the same work, but instead of something around minimum wage with most
> security companies, they now do it for $35,000 to $48,000/yr depending
> on performance and experiance.

Ah, good to know.

> Layoffs in the security industry tend to be done by raising the
> performance bar, seniority be damned.  Because of this, I believe
> private industry and the airports get better security officers.  This
> was a big win for socialisation.

Either that, or rationalisation.

Who was it on (another part of this huge thread) that was complaining
about the balooning Federal deficit (partly because of the TSA), and how
Bush 43rd was so evil?

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 23:58, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 02:17:40PM -0500, David P James wrote:
> > The Americans liberated Continental Europe. But they did not save 
> > Britain. Arguably Canada did, but not the United States.
> 
> And at that, Canadian Forces are basically the British Forces but
> flying the Red Ensign instead.  I took history from a US perspective,
> and I still see that the British more than held thier own.  America

If the US hadn't chipped in with more ships and long range bombers,
all the valiant work of the RN & RCN would hae come up short.

> didn't save thier ass, America saved France's.  Considering the
> centuries-old animosity between England and France, and France's
> initial help in stabilizing a young America, I'm surprised the Cold
> War found Americans, French and British on the same side (as opposed
> to .fr and .us versus .su and .uk) 8:o)

All during the CW, the French steered a much more independant military
course, having their own, non-integrated nuclear policy, and not
being fully integrated into NATO.

I wonder if that's because (as I understand it) most Franch partisans
during the war were communists, and many other French fell right in 
with the Nazis? 
http://www.bobfromaccounting.com/4_22_02/francesurrenders.html

(The French are most ungrateful we twice hauled their arses out of
the fire.)

For about 125ish years, there was some political/naval animosity
beween the 2 countries, but the bonds of trade & culture were too
strong.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 22:58, David P James wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 15:12, David P James wrote:
> > 
> >>Ron Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 12:18, David P James wrote:
[snip]
> Contraire is correct :)

Thanks.

> That's true in one sense but not in others. It's true for a bond only if 
> the issuer fails to meet their obligations. But if they do meet their 
> obligations then you can't just take your bond back to the corporation 
> that issued it and demand it be redeemed before it matures nor can you 
> in most cases sell your stock back to the corporation. So it really 
> depends on your point of view as to whether unredeemable assets are 
> "backed" by anything.

You are confusing "secured" & "liquid".

Corporate bonds are secured (by that factory), and partially liquid
(since,as you say, I can't arbitrarily go back to the company to
redeem them, but I can quite easily sell them on the open market).

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 00:04, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 10:32:10PM -0600, Gary Turner wrote:
> > My dictionary (American Heritage College Dictionary) sz they're
> > synonyms.  Save your valuable exemption for a real error :)
> 
> And American Heritage Dictionary also screws up the definition of
> "hacker," giving it the meaning of "cracker."  This should be a clue
> in this group.  Use dict instead, as you can (usually) get multiple
> sources for the definition (geosynchronous and geostationary being an
> exception, apparently).
> 
> All geostationary orbits are also geosynchronous, but not all
> geosynchronous orbits are geostationary.
> 
> baloo@ursine:~$ dict geosynchronous
> 1 definition found
> 
> From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:
> 
>   geosynchronous
>adj : of or having an orbit with a fixed period of 24 hours
>  (although the position in the orbit may not be fixed
>  with respect to the earth)
>
> baloo@ursine:~$ dict geostationary
> 1 definition found
> 
> From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:
> 
>   geostationary
>adj : of or having a geosynchronous orbit such that the
>position
>  in such an orbit is fixed with respect to the earth; "a
>  geostationary satellite"


Ah ha!  The satellite can be in a polar orbit at 35,000 (38,000?) Km,
so would be geosynchronous but not geostationary.

Does American Heritage have a BTS?

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 00:24, Geordie Birch wrote:
> said Ron Johnson (on 2003-02-08),
> 
> > On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 15:21, Geordie Birch wrote:
> > > said David P James (on 2003-02-08),
> > >
> > > > Travis Crump wrote:
> > > > > Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 20:57, Gary Turner wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > And I can spend my Canadian dollars in Canada, but good luck trying to get
> > > rid of them in a town like Arcata California, or Berkeley even.  US
> > > dollars on the other hand can be used with no problems in many small
> > > retail outlets in Canada.  Big liquidity difference between the two.
> >
> > I'm sure that a Bank would exchange it for you.
> 
> I thought so too, but no bank in Arcata would touch it if I didn't have an
> account.  This was in 1995.

I'm stunned, since I thought that currency exchange was part of a bank's
duties.

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 00:57, Gary Turner wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> >On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 10:32:10PM -0600, Gary Turner wrote:
[snip]
> >From a logic class many years ago:
> 
>   "All Volvo drivers are liberal, but not all liberals drive Volvos."

Hey, I resent that!!  If they still made 240s, and were affordable, I'd
definitely still drive one.

-- 
+--------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: shuttle disaster

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 02:54, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 12:39:24AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > And at that, Canadian Forces are basically the British Forces but
> > > flying the Red Ensign instead.  I took history from a US perspective,
> > > and I still see that the British more than held thier own.  America
> > 
> > If the US hadn't chipped in with more ships and long range bombers,
> > all the valiant work of the RN & RCN would hae come up short.
> 
> I'm not entirely convinced of this, to be honest with you.  If we were
> talking the RA and RCA in northern Europe, you're right.  But even
> then, the RCA and RA was leading us into battle (not that this is a
> bad thing, the RA is more local and probaly had a slightly better idea
> of the local geography than the American and RCA soldiers did).

By RA, you mean RAF?

> > All during the CW, the French steered a much more independant military
> > course, having their own, non-integrated nuclear policy, and not
> > being fully integrated into NATO.
> 
> Hence bombing whales with nukes in the mid-Atlantic clear into the 1990s.

WTF??

-- 
++
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: When did we get a crosspost with alt.shuttle.columbia.disaster?

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-02-09 at 05:41, Nicos Gollan wrote:
> On Sunday 09 February 2003 06:27, Steve Lamb wrote:
> > It's the only /reasonable/ explanation for having one thread pretty
> > much match if not drown out all other conversation on this list.
> 
> Now that you say it... whee! That filter just about halved the number of 
> messages in my inbox.
> 
> Serious, folks. Move that crap to debian-curiosa or somewhere.

Don't worry.  Those threads and sub-threads seem to have finally
petered out...

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+--------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
| Jefferson, LA  USA   http://members.cox.net/ ron.l.johnson |
||
| "For me and windows it became a matter of easy to start|
|  with, and becoming increasingly difficult to be produc-   |
|  tive as time went on, and if something went wrong very|
|  difficult to fix, compared to linux's large over head |
|  setting up and learning the system with ease of use and   |
|  the increase in productivity becoming larger the longer I |
|  use the system."  | 
|   Rohan Nicholls , The Netherlands |
++


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Re: IRQ pileup

[Ron Johnson]

On Sat, 2003-09-06 at 19:34, Nathan Malmberg wrote:
> Debian Users,
> 
> I sent a similar message a few days back, but I don't believe it was
> ever posted to the list.  A second effort...

I saw it a few days ago, but didn't answer since I don't have a
notebook PC.  However...

> I've been trying to use my PCMCIA wireless network card on my laptop,
> but whenever I insert the card, I get the message:
> 
> orinoco_cs: RequestIRQ: Resource in use
> 
> I think this is probably because of the large number of devices using
> IRQ 10 on my machine:
> 
> cat /proc/interrupts
> 
>CPU0   
>   0: 533785  XT-PIC  timer
>   1:   3989  XT-PIC  keyboard
>   2:  0  XT-PIC  cascade
>   5:  0  XT-PIC  Maestro3(i)
>   8:  1  XT-PIC  rtc
>  10:  18517  XT-PIC  Texas Instruments PCI4451 PC card Cardbus 
> Controller, Texas Instruments PCI4451 PC card Cardbus Controller (#2), usb-uhci, eth0
>  14:  26764  XT-PIC  ide0
> NMI:  0 
> ERR:  0
> 
> I'm using a 2.4.21 kernel I compiled myself, but my 2.4.20 kernel
> behaves the same.  I know this card worked once upon a time (I think
> with the 2.4.20).  How can I make the card or the controller use a
> different IRQ?  Is there a manual I should be reading?  Could my problem
> be caused by other software?

Is there something like the BIOS Setup program, that will allow
you to alter the PCI A/B/C/D assignments?

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Causation does NOT equal correlation 


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Re: Remove pakages and it dependents

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 08:32, Victory wrote:
> How to remove package and it dependents safely.
> i.e. I want to remove ppp package and it dependencies.

Too simple:
# aptitude remove ppp

Aptitude tries to remove any dependencies that are not used by any
other package.

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"Perl is worse than Python because people wanted it worse."
Larry Wall, 10/14/1998


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Gnome 2.4 to be in Sarge? (was Re: Gnome 2.4)

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 00:49, karrottop wrote:
> Does anyone know if there is a apt-get source for Gnome 2.4 yet
> anywhere...I am running unstable and i don't see it yet...although I may
> just be jumping the gun with my anxiousness

Have you tried apt-get.org?

Does anyone know if v2.4 will make it into Sarge?  Or is it too
late in the testing cycle to introduce such a huge version .0 
bundle of s/w?

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kernel 2.4.22

[Ron Johnson]

Hi,

Any word on when 2.4.22 might make it into sid?

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"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect 
liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born 
to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their 
liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty 
lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning, but 
without understanding."
Justice Louis Brandeis, dissenting, Olmstead v US (1928)


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Re: kernel 2.4.22

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 10:36, JG wrote:
> Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Any word on when 2.4.22 might make it into sid?
> 
> Tomorrow. (it is in incoming.debian.org today).

Ah!  I just d/l'ed the .bz2 from ftp.kernel.org.

Is there usually any difference between the kernel-source .config
file and the ftp.kernel.org .config file?

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"A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor 
by people carrying razors."
Waldi Ravens


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Re: how to get a silent harddisk?

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 21:47, Tom Allison wrote:
> Jacob Anawalt wrote:
> > Joachim Förster said:
> > 
> >>Does anybody know, why squid uses the harddisk although its (empty disk
> >>cache, logs and other status files are on the tmpfs)?
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > I don't know why it uses the hard disk, but if it is only reading those
> > files and there is enough memory that they are cached in the kernel file
> > cache, then perhaps the atime is being updated and that is causing the
> > disk to spin up?
> > 
> > Are you mounting with the noatime option?
> > 
> > Maybe there's another http proxy that doesn't require any disk access?
> > 
> > I am interested in following this thread. I would like to set up a similar
> > computer, with as few fans and spinning drives (zero would be ideal) as
> > possible while staying inexpensive and low-power.
> > 
> 
> For starters, consider via's eden PC's.  Most of them are fanless.
> Then look at the hard drives that are out their with Fluid Bearings.
> Seagate is one, I think there a japanese company (Fujitsu or something) that 
> also has very low noise hard drives.

According to what I've read on this list in the past, the Seagate
Barracuda IV is very quite.

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Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

"they love our milk and honey, but preach about another way of living"
Merle Haggard, "The Fighting Side Of Me"


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Re: DMA doesn't seem to work with my custom 2.4.21 kernel

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 12:07, David selby wrote:
> Pim Bliek wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >
> >I've set the following in my kernel-config (2.4.21):
> >
> >CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_PCI=y
> >CONFIG_IDEDMA_PCI_AUTO=y
> >CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA=y
> >
> >I have an ASUS A7N8X Deluxe rev 2.0 motherboard.
> >
> >When I run hdparm -d1 /dev/hda I get the following error:
> >
> ># hdparm -d1 /dev/hda
> >/dev/hda:
> > setting using_dma to 1 (on)
> > HDIO_SET_DMA failed: Operation not permitted
> > using_dma=  0 (off)
> >
> >I know this has worked on my system on a previous install (Gentoo). I
> >have quite a new WD HDD 80 GB.
> >
> >Anyone knows what I am missing?
> >
> >Pim
> >
> >  
> >
> I was running 2.4.19, upgraded to 2.4.21, dma stopped working, went back 
> to 2.4.19, dma works. Im not experienced enough to give you more help 
> than that. Give 2.4.19 a go ?

How about 2.4.22?  Could it be that .21 doesn't yet fully support 
the A7N8X's chipsets?

I have these set to "y" in my A7V133
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDE_MODES=y
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_VIA82CXXX=y

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Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

YODA: Code! Yes. A programmer's strength flows from code 
maintainability. But beware of Perl. Terse syntax... more 
than one way to do it...default variables. The dark side of code 
maintainability are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you 
when code you write. If once you start down the dark path, 
forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.


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Re: Evolving Debian from Red Hat

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 12:35, George Abraham wrote:
> Can apt-get and deb package management system be installed in a Red hat 
> machine?. I am thinking about the possiblity of evolving a GNU/Debian 
> system from a Red Hat system. Is it possible?. Pardon me if I am wrong 
> and ignorant.

If /home, /var and any special data directories are on separate
partitions, then I'd "just" back them up, along with /etc, and 
start from scratch.

You can tell the Debian installer *not* to format certain partitions;
thus you can save /home, /var, etc.  It worked fine for me when I
"upgraded" from Mandrake.

-- 
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Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

"...always eager to extend a friendly claw"


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Re: Small, silent system with 2 NICs?

[Ron Johnson]

On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 21:57, Johannes Graumann wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Sorry for this being slightly OT, but I was wondering whether
>  anybody here could advise me concerning a small debian compat-
> ible system that is supposed to sit SILENTLY in my living room
> and function as a firewall and sshd server for my wireless net-
> wor that is supposed to come into existence shortly. I found 
> idotpc.com, but there little ones only take one card ...
> 
> Please let me know if you came across something like this - I 
> do not intend to build something from scratch.

An old Pentium w/ bootable CD-ROM capabilities will let you slap 
in 2 PCI NICs, and create a bootable CD firewall.  So, only a CD
drive will be needed, and most of the time it will be not spinning.
You can make a syslog server and send the log files to another
machine that has the disk space to hold as many logs as you want.

http://leaf.sourceforge.net/

-- 
---------
Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

"Fair is where you take your cows to be judged."
Unknown


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Re: Sudden increase in size of Debian?

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 18:37, Jeremy Brooks wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 15:18, Kevin McKinley wrote:
> > I've been mirroring binary packages for the x86 architecture for several
> > months now (woody, sarge and sid). The mirror's size hovered around 15 Gb
> > for a while, but in the last two weeks appears to have suddenly increased to
> > almost 21.5 Gb.
> > 
> > Is there really that much material, or do I need to investigate my rsync
> > scripts?
> > 
> > Kevin
> 
> This subject looked like the unholy union of, er, personal enhancement
> spam and the Debian mailing list. ;)
> 
> Sorry; I haven't slept in 30 hours.

It shows.  What does the binary-package mirror have to do with spam
on the mailing lists?

-- 
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Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty: power is ever 
stealing from the many to the few. The manna of popular liberty 
must be gathered each day, or it is rotten... The hand entrusted 
with power becomes, either from human depravity or esprit de 
corps, the necessary enemy of the people. Only by continual 
oversight can the democrat in office be prevented from hardening 
into a despot: only by unintermitted agitation can a people be 
kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be 
smothered in material prosperity... Never look, for an age when 
the people can be quiet and safe. At such times despotism, like 
a shrouding mist, steals over the mirror of Freedom"
Wendell Phillips


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Re: Sudden increase in size of Debian?

[Ron Johnson]

On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 19:25, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 06:57:27PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 18:37, Jeremy Brooks wrote:
> > > This subject looked like the unholy union of, er, personal enhancement
> > > spam and the Debian mailing list. ;)
> > > 
> > > Sorry; I haven't slept in 30 hours.
> > 
> > It shows.  What does the binary-package mirror have to do with spam
> > on the mailing lists?
> 
> He said the *subject*, that is "Sudden increase in size of Debian?".

Oh, $DIETY, that is a realy bad pun.

> > -
> > Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Jefferson, LA USA
> > 
> > "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty: power is ever 
> > stealing from the many to the few. The manna of popular liberty 
> > must be gathered each day, or it is rotten... The hand entrusted 
> > with power becomes, either from human depravity or esprit de 
> > corps, the necessary enemy of the people. Only by continual 
> > oversight can the democrat in office be prevented from hardening 
> > into a despot: only by unintermitted agitation can a people be 
> > kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be 
> > smothered in material prosperity... Never look, for an age when 
> > the people can be quiet and safe. At such times despotism, like 
> > a shrouding mist, steals over the mirror of Freedom"
> > Wendell Phillips
> 
> Any chance of making this signature a bit shorter? Four lines is a
> common maximum.

It's in rotation.  See how much shorter this one is?

-- 
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Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian 
because I hate vegetables!"
unknown


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More spam (was Re: Help Save the Arctic Refuge)

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 00:19, Eric Toullec wrote:
[snip]
> This message is being sent to you by a friend.  You will not be contacted 
> again; www.savearcticrefuge.org is merely providing a means for the public 
> to spread the word about threats to the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.  
> Defenders of Wildlife and US.net have not initiated this message.  If you 
> have received this note in error, we apologize. 
> 

-- 
---------
Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer 
arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Bertrand Meyer


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Re: Installing nvidia driver ; Detecting ethernet card with new kernel

[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 20:53, Shriram Ramanathan wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just installed woody.  The installation discs installed kernel
> 2.2.20-compact.  I have been struggling with installing the nvidia Riva
> TNT-2 driver.  I downloaded the package
> "NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-4496-pkg2.run" from the nvidia site.
> 
> I tried the following steps :
> 
> 1) As per instructions, I tried to run "sh
> NVIDIA-Linux-x86-4496-pkg2.run".  This told me that a precompiled image
> was not available for the above kernel-image
> 
> 2) So, I downloaded the kernel-headers for 2.2.20-compact and tried to use
> the "-kernel-include-path=" option while installing the driver.  This
> failed with the following error
> 
> "Failed cc sanity check.  Bailing out" (I have gcc 2.95.4)
> 
> 3) So, I decided to upgrade my kernel.  I download kernel version 2.4.18
> (image only) and again tried step (1).  Again, a precompiled kernel wasn't
> found with the nvidia installer.

Let NVIDIA-Linux-x86-4496-pkg2.run compile a new driver for you.

-- 
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Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

Causation does NOT equal correlation 


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Re: Equation system resolver

[Ron Johnson]

On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 21:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 09:48:58PM -0400, Nicolas wrote:
> > Is there a equation system resolver in debian or linux in general?
> > Basicly, I need to resolv equation systems or simplify very long and 
> > complicated equations.
> > 
> > Nic Cola
> > -- 
> > QOTD:
> > Sacred cows make great hamburgers.

But Hindu's will be vry upset with you.

> http://www.maplesoft.com/products/student/
> Find some way to buy the student edition.  Trust me.
> If you can program, the teacher will use your paper as the answer key.

But doesn't that defeat the purpose of being assigned the task of
solving equations (if you're in Mathematics classes, that it)?

-- 
-----
Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jefferson, LA USA

Great Inventors of our time: 
Al Gore -> Internet 
Sun Microsystems -> Clusters


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