Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Ricardo Javier Cardenes Medina]

On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 10:59:45AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
> 
> The barrapunto article makes it clear that the academy (hmm, perhaps
> "trade school" is better English?) is not holding this trademark for the
> benefit of the Debian community.

academy is right:

  academy
   n 1: a secondary school (usually private)
   2: an institution for the advancement of art or science or
  literature [syn: {honorary society}]
   3: a school for special training
  ^
   4: a learned establishment for the advancement of knowledge


> Can someone familiar with Spanish IP law comment on what weight is given
> to "prior art" in the case of a trademark challenge?  I'm assuming that,
> one way or another, some money will have to be spent on lawyers to fix
> this.

Javier de la Cueva (lawyer) said in another message:

   "[...] Más importante que el registro de una marca es el uso de
una marca. [...]"

   "[...] The point on registering a trade mark is the use of the
mark itself."

and:

   "[...] registrar como propia una marca que previamente pertenece al
mundo cultural es una idiotez puesto que en cualquier momento hay
un procedimiento de oposición y te la quitan. Basta con demostrar
la preexistencia de un uso de la marca diferente al registrado."

   "[...] registering as of your own a mark that previously's been in
common use is silly, because at any moment somebody can arrange an
'opposition procedure' and the mark will be yours no more. It's
enough demonstrating the previous existence of the use of the mark
in a different way than the registrar's."

I don't know whether that 'in different way' may affect this. Anyway, he
states again in the message that proving that Debian (OS) is prior to
Debian (Academy), is enough to win (and offers himself, bona fide, in
favour of Debian Comunity).

We can translate the entire mail if you want, but these are the relevant
points.

Regards,
Ricardo

Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Ignacio García Fernández]

It seems there have been some news. As it has been announced in deb-usr-sp,
I'll do a summary here. I also include the full text in spanish. I've
annotated the tranlatoin with brackets '[' ']'.

In barrapunto it has appered a note that is suposed to be from CEINTEC, the
company that was said to have registered Debian.

Please, if anyone sees any mistake in the translation or doesn't understand
a word, forgive me, and don't doubt to ask :) My English is not very good.

The note says:

«About the comment published in bp.com on sep-3 2002, CEINTEC wants to point
out that:

[...]

Ceintec did not register the TM Debian.

[...]

Debian was registered  by a person related to CENITEC, by him or herself
[not in the name of CEINTEC] on September of 2000, when he/she noticed that
some oother names related to Free Soft were being registered by other
trades.

We [CEINTEC] know that the intention of that person was to protect the mark
Debian precisely to avoid others to register it and forbide its use by
others (including CEINTEC).

We [CEINTEC] know that this person has never oposed to the use of Debian
and, of course, that person guarantees that this won't happen in the future
(while the GNU philosophy is respected).

We [CEINTEC] also know that he/she would give it (now and before) to any
Government Institution that guarantees that the whole community can use it
freely and that promisses to renew and defend while the distribution
[Debian, I understand] exists.

[...]»


 «Respecto al comentario publicado en barrapunto.com el 3/9/02 CEINTEC
quiere realizar las siguientes puntualizaciones:

Que Ceintec ha defendido y apostado por Linux y el software libre desde
1995. Como se puede comprobar en su Web http://www.ceintec.com

Que ha implementado Linux en sus programas de formación cuando nadie hablaba
de Linux y muy pocos lo defendían.

Que Ceintec no registró la marca Debian.

Que la distribución que imparte es RED HAT (no Debian) por lo que no se le
puede acusar de "vender cursos de Debian".

Que Ceintec, siempre que puede, hace publicidad gratuita de las
distribuciones no comerciales de Linux (como Debian).

Debian fue registrada por una persona relacionada con la empresa a titulo
particular y lo hizo en septiembre del 2000, cuando comprobó que otros
nombres relacionados con el soft libre habían sido registrados en España por
otras empresas.

Nos consta que la intención de esa persona fue proteger la marca Debian
precisamente para evitar que otros la registraran e impidieran a los demás
(incluido Ceintec) utilizarla.

Sabemos que en todo este tiempo no se ha opuesto al uso de Debian y que por
supuesto esa persona garantiza que tampoco lo hará en el futuro (siempre que
se respete la filosofía GNU).

Así mismo nos consta su disposición a traspasarla (ahora y antes) a
cualquier Institución Estatal que garantice que toda la comunidad pueda
utilizar libremente la marca Debian y que se comprometa a renovarla y
defenderla hasta que la distribución deje de existir.

Incluso RED HAT defiende la protección de un nombre con su registro de la
marca SW (ver en barrapunto el comentario: RED HAT y las patentes del
articulo relacionado: More on patentes, o bien:
http://www.redhat.com/legal/patent_policy.html ) y la pone a disposición de
la comunidad de software libre.»



-- 
May the source be with you

Ignacio García Fernández  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Instituto de Robótica.
Universidad de Valencia.Tlf. 96 398 3583

http://shannon.irobot.uv.es/~ignacio/  

Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña]

(BTW, CC: me since I'm not subscribed to either lists)

Thus spoke Henning Makholm:
>If it's anything like Danish trademark law, there ought to be a
>possibility of challenging the trademark registration (though there
>may be out-of-pocket expenses, hence steps 1-4). I assume that
>somebody has markeded Debian CD sets in Spain prior to 2001? Evidence
>of saturation bombing of the general public by 4-color ads is not
>necessary, though it probably wouldn't hurt to be able to produce a
>few thumbnail-sized black-and-whites in the local geek press.

As for the Debian CDs prior to 2001:

I provided, in october 1998, Debian CDs, with the 'hamm' distribution (as
well as installation instructions) to a Spanish magazine (Linux Actual,
edited by Prensa Tecnica) as seen here: 
http://www.debian.org/News/1998/19981016 (picture incuded)

There was also a magazine (Linux Actual #1) edited in january 1998 with
Debian CDs for 'bo'. www.prensatecnica.net works, but
http://www.prensatecnica.net/cgi-bin/Web_store/web_store.cgi doesn't so I
can't confirm confirm the exact date. However, a note at the Sobre's group
(http://gsyc.escet.urjc.es/sobre/novatica-seccion/node5.html, in spanish)
confirms the date.

FYI

Javi

Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Amaya]

Ignacio García Fernández dijo:
> What do you mean by «enforce» a trademark or patent?

[EMAIL PROTECTED]>i2e.sh enforce

enforce (to -) : dar fuerza
enforce (to -) : imponer
enforce (to -) : obligar
enforcement : entrada en vigor

-- 
 .''`. Somewhere on this globe, every ten seconds, there is a woman giving
: :' :   birth to a child. She must be found and stopped -- Sam Levenson
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux Sid (2.4.18 + Ext3) 
  `-www.amayita.com  www.malapecora.com  www.chicasduras.com   

Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Rob Bradford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 16:59, Steve Langasek wrote:

> > Can someone familiar with Spanish IP law comment on what weight is given
> > to "prior art" in the case of a trademark challenge?  I'm assuming that,
> > one way or another, some money will have to be spent on lawyers to fix
> > this.

> I'm interested in whether this in fact an issue, primarily because if
> they tried to enforce the trademark prior usage should be easy to find
> given that the date of the trademark issuing is May 2001. Hence the
> trademark becomes unenforcable, i'm not sure whether it is worth wasting
> time and money on attempting to get this revoked.

I think the question is not so much whether they can hit other vendors
of Debian-specific technical services with legal threats of their own
(which they would be incredibly stupid to do), but what harm they are
already doing.

>From what I've gleaned from the reports (third-hand, as I don't know
Spanish), they are using the trademark as backing for a "certification
program" in connection with courses they offer. Seing how they
apparently have no respect for names or trademarks, one wonders how
qualified they are in other respects. Will one of their "officially
certified Debian technicians" be any good in practise, and does Debian
want to be tainted with the implication that the project especially
endorses their courses?

Quite apart from the risk of actual tainting, don't Debian have the
(possibly implied) policy that whereas we encourage businesses to try
to make a profit from our system by distributing it or offer technical
assistance with respect to it, we do insist that they compete fairly
on price and technical merit, not on the ability to make themselves
look more official than the competition? Do we, as a project, want to
run the risk of businesses concluding that because we silently approve
of competitors who don't play fair, it will not be commercially
viable to enter the Debian trade?

Personally I think there seems to be good reason to try to stop the
apparent trademarksquatting. FWIW, The official strategy adopted by
SPI for protecting the Debian trademark is

|  1. contact an offender ourselves
|  2. send a letter
|  3. ask Chris Rourk to send a letter
|  4. go to the media
|  5. sue
|
| The letter in step 2 will have to be sent by the SPI secretary or an
| appointed legal secretary.



> *Theoretically* trademark law should be standardised across the EU.

If it's anything like Danish trademark law, there ought to be a
possibility of challenging the trademark registration (though there
may be out-of-pocket expenses, hence steps 1-4). I assume that
somebody has markeded Debian CD sets in Spain prior to 2001? Evidence
of saturation bombing of the general public by 4-color ads is not
necessary, though it probably wouldn't hurt to be able to produce a
few thumbnail-sized black-and-whites in the local geek press.

-- 
Henning Makholm "These are a nasty breed. They sting
  you without waiting to be insulted first."

Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Ignacio García Fernández]

What do you mean by «enforce» a trademark or patent?

thx

On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 01:30:02PM +0100, Rob Bradford wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 16:59, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 01:25:20PM +0200, Ignacio García Fernández wrote: 
> > Can someone familiar with Spanish IP law comment on what weight is given
> > to "prior art" in the case of a trademark challenge?  I'm assuming that,
> > one way or another, some money will have to be spent on lawyers to fix
> > this.
> 
> I'm interested in whether this in fact an issue, primarily because if
> they tried to enforce the trademark prior usage should be easy to find
> given that the date of the trademark issuing is May 2001. Hence the
> trademark becomes unenforcable, i'm not sure whether it is worth wasting
> time and money on attempting to get this revoked. *shrug* Maybe
> consulting an expert on Spanish law would be a good idea as you say.
> 
> Under some jurisdictions if a company does not enforce a trademark then
> that trademark enters the public domain. This completely different to a
> patent where you can enforce it whenever you want. *Theoretically*
> trademark law should be standardised across the EU.
> 
> Cheers
> -- 
> Rob 'robster' Bradford
> Founder: http://www.debianplanet.org/
> Developer: http://www.debian.org/
> Monkey with keyboard: http://www.robster.org.uk/



-- 
May the source be with you

Ignacio García Fernández  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Instituto de Robótica.
Universidad de Valencia.Tlf. 96 398 3583

http://shannon.irobot.uv.es/~ignacio/  


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Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Rob Bradford]

On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 16:59, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 01:25:20PM +0200, Ignacio García Fernández wrote: 
> Can someone familiar with Spanish IP law comment on what weight is given
> to "prior art" in the case of a trademark challenge?  I'm assuming that,
> one way or another, some money will have to be spent on lawyers to fix
> this.

I'm interested in whether this in fact an issue, primarily because if
they tried to enforce the trademark prior usage should be easy to find
given that the date of the trademark issuing is May 2001. Hence the
trademark becomes unenforcable, i'm not sure whether it is worth wasting
time and money on attempting to get this revoked. *shrug* Maybe
consulting an expert on Spanish law would be a good idea as you say.

Under some jurisdictions if a company does not enforce a trademark then
that trademark enters the public domain. This completely different to a
patent where you can enforce it whenever you want. *Theoretically*
trademark law should be standardised across the EU.

Cheers
-- 
Rob 'robster' Bradford
Founder: http://www.debianplanet.org/
Developer: http://www.debian.org/
Monkey with keyboard: http://www.robster.org.uk/


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Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Jacobo Tarrio]

O Martes,  3 de Setembro de 2002 ás 10:59:45 -0500, Steve Langasek escribía:

> The trademark is shown as registered in class 42:

 After some digging, I found the applications: M2321780, M2321781, M2321782.

 All three were submitted within one minute, by the same person. The first
one claims the trademark "Debian", in category "38 SERVICIOS DE
TELECOMUNICACIONES". The second, claims "Debian", in category "41 SERVICIOS
DE EDUCACION Y ESPARCIMIENTO". The third one claims "Debian", in category
"42 SERVICIOS DE PROGRAMACION PARA ORDENADORES".

 If someone wants the Spanish PTO's database query results, I'll be glad to
send them to that someone :-)

-- 

   Tarrío
(Compostela)

Re: Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 01:25:20PM +0200, Ignacio García Fernández wrote:
> Yes, you have read well.

> In Spain Debian has been registered as a Trade Mark.

> You can find info at
> http://www.marcanet.com/Acceso_Gratuito/CPRespMN.ASP?Num=1&L1=1&N=1&C1=42&Nmb=debian&Tp=Es&Sob=Marca

> The page is in Spanish, but it's easy to understand, you introduce a name
> you want to register, and they give you a list of similar names already
> registered.

> The alert was sent to barrapunto, a sloashdot-like forum

> http://barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=02/09/02/1020219&mode=&threshold=

> It looks like it has been an accademy, but we are not certain.

> As you can asume, Debian users and developers are quite worried about that.

> What can be done?

The trademark is shown as registered in class 42:

 Servicios científicos y tecnológicos así como servicios de investigación
 y diseño relativos a ellos; servicios de análisis y de investigación
 industrial; diseño y desarrollo de ordenadores y software; servicios
 jurídicos.

That is,

 Scientific and technological services as well as related design and
 research services; analysis and industrial research services;
 design and development of computers and software; legal services.

So there's no doubt that this trademark affects our field.

The barrapunto article makes it clear that the academy (hmm, perhaps
"trade school" is better English?) is not holding this trademark for the
benefit of the Debian community.

Can someone familiar with Spanish IP law comment on what weight is given
to "prior art" in the case of a trademark challenge?  I'm assuming that,
one way or another, some money will have to be spent on lawyers to fix
this.

Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Debian registered by a trade as TM in Spain!

[Ignacio García Fernández]

Yes, you have read well.

In Spain Debian has been registered as a Trade Mark.

You can find info at
http://www.marcanet.com/Acceso_Gratuito/CPRespMN.ASP?Num=1&L1=1&N=1&C1=42&Nmb=debian&Tp=Es&Sob=Marca

The page is in Spanish, but it's easy to understand, you introduce a name
you want to register, and they give you a list of similar names already
registered.

The alert was sent to barrapunto, a sloashdot-like forum

http://barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=02/09/02/1020219&mode=&threshold=

It looks like it has been an accademy, but we are not certain.

As you can asume, Debian users and developers are quite worried about that.

What can be done?

Please cc your message to debian-user-spanish@lists.debian.org and
debian-l10n-spanish@lists.debian.org as this subject is being discussed
there.

Thnx

-- 
May the source be with you

Ignacio García Fernández  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Instituto de Robótica.
Universidad de Valencia.Tlf. 96 398 3583

http://shannon.irobot.uv.es/~ignacio/