Re: To all candidates: delegation process
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 09:27:24AM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote: su, 2006-03-12 kello 11:21 +1000, Anthony Towns kirjoitti: if a delegation is necessary, make it, by posting the details to -project, or if necessary, -private. Why -project and not -devel-announce? I just wasn't assuming they'd all be worth a post to d-d-a. Ideally, it'd be because the delegates would be posting details of what's going on themselves to d-d-a; so an additional post authorising their delegation would just be repetitive. But basically: no particular reason. Cheers, aj signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question to all candidates about stable point releases
Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au wrote: On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 08:14:21AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Uh, what the hell? You have four people asking basically the same question, and you wonder about this? Yes, because _all_ of them leap to the conclusion that I'm trying to delay something, when I'm not. I wouldn't say trying to delay, which implies deliberate action. But delaying seems to be correct from the information you gave, and not communicating, too. Where do you get this stuff? I've been reporting on what I've been doing in, afaik, more detail than anyone else in the project for the past few months. See, for instance: [... list snipped ] Public communication is important for people in key positions, but personal communication, especially when an answer has been requested explicitly, is even more. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Re: Candidate questions: expulsions process
Matthew Garrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/01/msg00968.html For those who can't read -private, Andrew's claims are untrue - objections are voiced due to the manner in which Andrew voiced his beliefs, not the beliefs in and of themselves. The belief-based request was in reasonable (if imperfect) voice and the objections were mostly attacking the suggested action rather than the manner of expression. Andrew's claims seem true and seem to have gone unchallenged on -devel. I welcome any DDs reviewing the -private archive, to see which DPL candidates did what on this. Matthew Garrett, to support your claim, will you make public any objection(s) you posted to that August 2005 thread, as an example, or state that you posted none? For my part, I did not post to it (travelling and then jet-lagged, not handling all list mail), which I now think is a shame, given the disappointing outcomes. Nobody believes that Andrew should be expelled from the project because he believes that death should be a celebration of the fact that somebody is no longer constrainted by their mortality. Well, I'm fairly sure that's not his belief, so believing that would be pretty stupid. Nice misdirection. People believe that Andrew should be expelled because he managed to turn a simple notice of the death of a Debian contributor into a several hundred message flamewar. It was not Andrew who started flaming. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Candidate questions: expulsions process
Mac Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matthew Garrett, to support your claim, will you make public any objection(s) you posted to that August 2005 thread, as an example, or state that you posted none? No need - Mark Ray did so earlier in the week. Well, I'm fairly sure that's not his belief, so believing that would be pretty stupid. Nice misdirection. Andrew's a Discordian - to the extent that anything can be said about their beliefs (it's not a terribly structured religion), I think it seems reasonably accurate. The Discordian death is a brain re-dis-alignment: new shocks and struts! hardly makes it sound like a bad thing. -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] My preferred name is you -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question for all candidates: handle debian-admin more openly
On Fri, Mar 10, 2006 at 11:20:47PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote: Are bruckner and voltaire overloaded or do they lack services the developers need? The release team has called for a multi-arch implementation to support powerpc64 userland over the biarch situation. This calls for a machine capable of building *and running* powerpc 64 code, which is not the case of existing powerpc 32bit machines. Such requests and requirements change the situation. However, I have to admit that I first read about this particular requirement here. I Well, i menitoned you ppc64, but not in detail, and back then i believed that the biarch path was enough, which didn't need a ppc64 box. noticed some babbling about ppc64, sparc64, mips64 and s390x architectures but nothing that ended up in will be included in the archive, hence, requres buildd and development machines. Well, the current state is will be included if someone makes it happen; but etch will not be delayed for it. Still having ppc64 buildds is a prerequisite for it to happen. During fosdem i was part of a meeting concerning the multi-arch support, and altough i feel the deadline for etch is very short, the plan is to at least try for it. If this has changed, most probably debian-admin won't deny two machines for these purposes. Cool. -- Question to the release and archive people: Is there such a requirement? Will such architectures indeed be included the archive? Do we really need machines of the particular 64 bit architectures? If so for which architectures exactly? -- i guess thye three first are yes, and the last is amd64 and powerpc64 for etch, and the rest for post etch if someone is willing to do the work, (sparc64, mips64, hppa64, s390x). maybe others may make it to the first group, but these are more niche markets. I believe the powerpc64 is the one which wil benefit most from it, since multi-arch is less usefull for amd64, where pure-64 is more interesting, and multi-arch is only useful for running 32bit binaries of openoffice or other stuff known to be broken on 64bit. Another question would be if the Debian project should accept every arbitrary donation and increase their machine pool even when there is no use the machine? We plan to support powerpc64 userland for etch, as thus this is necessary. Who is we in this case? Is it the Debian project? I guess we here is the debian/powerpc porters, me among them. Furthermore these machines could be used for other use than just development, but then, i guess it is preferable to get a donation from intel than get a donation from ibm ? I don't want to judge between donators and I don't see a reason why Debian should do so. Instead we should judge between donations and use the best that we can get. Cool :) It was my believe that at least one of them should be maintained under the umbrella of the DSA team, in order to have it thrusted to be used to upload packages, but the DSA team refused to have anything to do with them, which i suppose is understandable since they have no time for it. I proposed to handle it for them though, or have Bastian do so, and was equally refused. I've once told you that currently (one year ago or so) there is no use for them, since a) voltaire works fine as buildd and bruckner works fine as developer machine. sure, but we need a powerpc64 autobuilder for etch. I'm sorry but I don't see powerpc64 mentioned in the list of release architectures for etch in the status mail from the release team: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/12/msg00013.html Maybe you could point me to where it is listed? well, it is a tentative release multi-arch, the plan is to not rebuild the whole archive, since this would be wastefull and a performance hit in general, but only those libraries which are needed to support apps needing 4GB of ram are to be concerned. We spoke this with the RMs back then, and they told it would be a non-mandatory release goal, not sure if it finally made it in the list though. So i ammend my claim, we need a powerpc64buildd if we are going to make it and get the multiarch ppc64 support done in time for etch. It is probably not a prerequisite, and can be added after the fact, but it would help to have it. In the meantime, there are 2 perfectly fine quad power5 machines with huge amounts of disk space, ram and reasonable bandwidth (the university of augsbourg's network), sitting mostly idle. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply to Fabian Fagerholm from Ted (Re: Questions for all candidates: the DPL as a creator of public opinion)
On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 10:45:47PM +0200, Fabian Fagerholm wrote: 1. Is Debian affected by what happens in the FOSS world in general? How? Please give examples if you can. Debian is very much affected by the FOSS world in general. The biggest example I can think of is the patent regulations that were used to attack the free mp3 encoding programs. Because of that patent threat, Debian is very careful about the kind of mp3 support it ships by default. 2. Has the definition (written or implied) of freedom in Debian changed over the years? How? I don't think it has changed. Debian was always about freedom and transparency for the users, while understanding that the project itself was not necessarily a democracy and that some internal issues would stay hidden from the public. It is the software, bug reports, and actual developement process that is open, has been open from the beginning, and will stay open as long as the project is called Debian GNU/Linux. Our politics are as open as they can be. For instance, we don't go around shouting to the world who all the deep pockets are that are sponsoring us. We have a private mailing list for developers only. I don't think these are bad things. 3. Is the understanding of freedom in Debian up to date with regard to the current state of the world? How does this show? Debian feels less libertarian now than it did eight years ago. Back in the day, it was unheard of for Debian Developers to be banished from Debian's mailing lists and official IRC channels just because of a personals political, social, or religious viewpoint. These things have been happening more and more frequently, leading to a perception of creeping authoritarianism. Debian is big enough that a class of developers have arisen who are more into the politics of the game than into executing a beautiful bit of code and sharing it with the world. 4. Does Debian have a good relationship with well-known organisations such as FSF, Creative Commons or insert your own example(s) here? Why/why not? Debian has always been fairly neutral toward other projects. Each developer is an ambassador of the project. Some vocal developers may complain about Ubuntu; but the vast majority have been very positive toward it. I like to think that, even though we've allowed Thomas Bushnell to be a Debian Developer, that hasn't compromised our relationship with the FSF. Our relationship with the FSF isn't as close as it could be, and I'd like to see that change. We are a distinct and independant project from the FSF, and in the early days we worked hard to make sure that distinction was clear, but being the official GNU distribution is a pretty cool thing, worth keeping. 5. As DPL, what would you rather work on in your vision-defining capacity: defining a special Debian-freedom, or encouraging Debian to embrace other definitions? Why and how? I like the vision we've always had. It doesn't need updating. Openness and transparency toward our users, and complete independance for our developers to participate in the policy making process and to maintain their packages however they see fit, as long as they fit with policy. Finally, please tell us as much as you want about what has led you towards Debian and free software instead of non-free alternatives. Why have you taken this path in life? Why is it important to you personally? When I was in high school, everyone was switching from MSDOS to Microsoft Windows. I started with a Commodore 64. This was cool, because I could program anything on it. And because every program came in source code form, I assumed this was how computing was done. I liked being able to look at other peoples source code to see how things were done. When I made the switch to MSDOS, I felt alienated. Where was the source code? Where did these binary blobs come from? Who made them and how? Someone showed me QWBASIC. It felt very limited and confining compared to all the multimedia and graphics facilities of the C64. Then high school started and I had free access to the Borland Turbo family of languages, so I grudgingly adapted to a world where I could program if I really wanted to, but where it wasn't easy. Borland at least took most of the pain away with their excellent documentation. The thing that Borland did right, which Richard Stevens copied in his famous books, was to give a really clear and obvious example of HOW to use each function in the API. You could cut and paste the code from the help page, compile it, and it would just work. Debian isn't quite at that level yet, but over the years I've noticed certain key API functions now have sample code snippets, which is a good thing. When the high school switched to Windows, that was the final straw. Here was this GUI, finally they added some graphical facilities to DOS, and the interfaces were all locked away! I was a broke high school student from a family
Ted replies to Martin (Re: Questions to candidates Towns and van Wolffelaar: debian-volatile)
On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 10:22:54PM +0100, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: (all other candidates feel free to answer the questions as well.) 1.) What is your opinion regarding the current status of debian-volatile? I just looked it up today. I like the concept a lot. 2.) Do you think this services should be made an official service of the debian project? Please give a reason for your answer. Having up-to-date spam filters and virus scanners in the stable distribution is a really useful thing. For that reason, I would like it to be made an official part of Debian. However, it must not be done in a way that burdens the current ftp-team. 3.) What do you think about including a volatile section into the main debian archive? (How) can this still be handled by the current volatile team? Who is on the current volatile team? They will definitely need to be Debian Developers. I am not sure what criteria is used when deciding that even a DD is trustworthy enough to become an ftp-master, so I suspect there may be some problems there. The ftp team is fairly hidden from the project at large; the only way volatile can go in is by talking to them and figuring out how to make it happen without creating any security issues. As DPL, I would like to set up a meeting between the ftp team and the volatile team to see what it would take. Ted -- It's not true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep. Eukleia: Ted Walther Address: 5690 Pioneer Ave, Burnaby, BC V5H2X6 (Canada) Contact: 604-430-4973 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Ted's reply to Martin (Re: Question for all candidates: handle debian-admin more openly)
On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 10:56:57PM +0100, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: Hi, the past, there were some issues that seem to indicate that the current Debian System Administrator team (DSA team) is overworked, as problems were not adressed in a timely fashion. The following just lists some of these issues: * Problems with one of the security.debian.org host network connection [ http://lists.debian.org/debian-security/2006/02/msg00047.html ] * Packages.debian.org down [ http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/01/msg00017.html ] * Host Relocation and host sought [ http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/06/msg00016.html ] Have there been any actions taken? There is no way at the moment to see any progress of the issues in public. Now my question: 1.) Do you think it would be a good idea to handle debian-admin more openly? That is a tough question to answer. So far they have been getting the job done, but appear to be getting overworked lately. The reason it is a tough question, is that the reason debian-admin stays out of the limelight is that they are the real power behind the throne. Without them, Debian cannot exist. In every large Free Software project I've been on, there were always power seekers with a modicum of programming skill who were drawn in like moths to the cupboard. They are more focussed on personal power than on the future good of the project. They want reputation through popularity rather than through work. Making the debian-admin team more open would make it a much larger and more tempting target for those types. Minimizing your exposure is a valid security principle. For the good of the project, we need some way to let the sysadmin team do their jobs without being distracted by politics. I don't have the answer of how to accomplish that. But I'd like you to keep it in mind next time you wonder why they aren't more open. 2.) Would you encourage debian-admin to do so? If yes, how? Better and faster communication is always important; if they need assistants, we should encourage them to add people to the team. But then it becomes a matter of weeding out the powerseekers. Our admin team is only human; all it takes is one brown-noser to slip in, and he'll hold open the gates for all the other popularity seekers until the original hardworking, competent DSA resign in disgust. Maybe that has already happened. I don't know. It is all so secretive. 3.) Do you think more DSA are needed? As someone who isn't on the team, and only sees peoples complaints about poor communication, it does seem like more DSA are needed. As DPL I'd ask them directly what how they feel about that. Ted -- It's not true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep. Eukleia: Ted Walther Address: 5690 Pioneer Ave, Burnaby, BC V5H2X6 (Canada) Contact: 604-430-4973 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Reply to Fabian Fagerholm from Ted (Re: Questions for all candidates: the DPL as a creator of public opinion)
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 01:01:16PM -0800, Ted Walther wrote: Debian is very much affected by the FOSS world in general. The biggest example I can think of is the patent regulations that were used to attack the free mp3 encoding programs. Because of that patent threat, Debian is very careful about the kind of mp3 support it ships by default. That would be Ubuntu. Or perhaps you're thinking of Fedora. But it would not be Debian. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ted's reply to Martin (Re: Question for all candidates: handle debian-admin more openly)
also sprach Ted Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.03.12.2220 +0100]: That is a tough question to answer. So far they have been getting the job done, but appear to be getting overworked lately. Please define lately? For the good of the project, we need some way to let the sysadmin team do their jobs without being distracted by politics. I don't have the answer of how to accomplish that. Read debian-vote; IMHO, the answer has been stated there quite recently (hint: prevent individual overload). 2.) Would you encourage debian-admin to do so? If yes, how? Better and faster communication is always important; if they need assistants, we should encourage them to add people to the team. Given that it has been suggested before, how would you go about it (as DPL) to make the quest successful this time? all it takes is one brown-noser to slip in, and he'll hold open the gates for all the other popularity seekers until the original hardworking, competent DSA resign in disgust. Who said those with the power are the ones to invite new people? 3.) Do you think more DSA are needed? As someone who isn't on the team, and only sees peoples complaints about poor communication, it does seem like more DSA are needed. As DPL I'd ask them directly what how they feel about that. ... and you won't if you don't become DPL? -- Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer and author: http://debiansystem.info `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP (sub)keys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! there was silence for a moment, and then out of the scrambled mess of arthur's brain crawled some words. -- hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy signature.asc Description: Digital signature (GPG/PGP)
Re: Ted replies to Martin (Re: Questions to candidates Towns and van Wolffelaar: debian-volatile)
also sprach Ted Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.03.12.2209 +0100]: Who is on the current volatile team? They will definitely need to be Debian Developers. How do you intend to work with all those hundreds of active contributors who aren't yet DDs? Will you ignore them? -- Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer and author: http://debiansystem.info `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP (sub)keys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! sometimes the urge to do bad is nearly overpowering -- ben horne signature.asc Description: Digital signature (GPG/PGP)
Re: Ted replies to Martin (Re: Questions to candidates Towns and van Wolffelaar: debian-volatile)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/12/2006 06:09 PM, Ted Walther wrote: On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 10:22:54PM +0100, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: (all other candidates feel free to answer the questions as well.) 1.) What is your opinion regarding the current status of debian-volatile? I just looked it up today. I like the concept a lot. Nice. :-) [...] 3.) What do you think about including a volatile section into the main debian archive? (How) can this still be handled by the current volatile team? Who is on the current volatile team? http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-volatile/team They will definitely need to be Debian Developers. With that in mind, you have just kicked me off the Volatile Team. :-) BTW, I do not have access to all Debian Volatile information, wchi means, some security sensitive information I will only have access with the rest of the people, but I'm part of the team, and so far, the only non-DD. I am not sure what criteria is used when deciding that even a DD is trustworthy enough to become an ftp-master, so I suspect there may be some problems there. The ftp team is fairly hidden from the project at large; the only way volatile can go in is by talking to them and figuring out how to make it happen without creating any security issues. As DPL, I would like to set up a meeting between the ftp team and the volatile team to see what it would take. Ted Hmmm... Volatile try to interact with lots of teams to find good solutions, but I should add that Stable Release is also very important. Kind regards, - -- Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Debian - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEFLuJCjAO0JDlykYRAucIAKCKUzKQf3rcfspgQZXGSed985u/8ACgxI1q r9bfTAy9jzzdXSnxaVz8hwI= =Fsxg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Ted replies to Martin (Re: Questions to candidates Towns and van Wolffelaar: debian-volatile)
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 09:23:37PM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) wrote: They will definitely need to be Debian Developers. With that in mind, you have just kicked me off the Volatile Team. :-) Non-DD contributors are important to Debian, and they deserve greater recognition and support from the project. If a volatile developer were to be making uploads to the queue and things like that, they would need to be a DD because of how our key-signing and security stuff works. Being a DD implies a level of trust that the person is who they say they are, and are reachable and responsible for their actions. This does not mean that every member of the volatile team has to be a DD, or that only DD's make important contributions. Frankly, I would like to see greater diversity in Debian; DD's have always had yeoman status, but what of those who just want a few rights of common without the responsibility of maintaining a fief? I think we need to allow for that. Ted -- It's not true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep. Eukleia: Ted Walther Address: 5690 Pioneer Ave, Burnaby, BC V5H2X6 (Canada) Contact: 604-430-4973 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Reply to Fabian Fagerholm from Ted (Re: Questions for all candidates: the DPL as a creator of public opinion)
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 04:23:36PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 01:01:16PM -0800, Ted Walther wrote: Debian is very much affected by the FOSS world in general. The biggest example I can think of is the patent regulations that were used to attack the free mp3 encoding programs. Because of that patent threat, Debian is very careful about the kind of mp3 support it ships by default. That would be Ubuntu. Or perhaps you're thinking of Fedora. But it would not be Debian. I disagree. lame, and other mp3 encoding programs were removed from main, contrib, and non-free several years ago. MP3 encoding just isn't supported by Debian. Perhaps you configured apt to bring in your mp3 encoding software from third-party repositories. Far more annoying than the limitations on mp3 are the limitations on video playback. Have you never noticed that many mpeg, wmv, and avi movies don't play out of the box on Debian? The codecs are tied up by patents, secret specs, and other roadblocks. Sure, you can download a tarball of binary dll's and exe's put out by Microsoft. You can put these non-free binary blobs in particular directories and suddenly be able to watch the videos you download. But this isn't free in a way that Debian can support, and my Aunt Tilly (not her real name) would never figure out how to do that. David, the teletubbies on IRC were egging you on to bait me. You gave in to them. I hope you develop better character, so you can make a decent opposition party when I am in office as DPL. I expect better of you. Ted -- It's not true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep. Eukleia: Ted Walther Address: 5690 Pioneer Ave, Burnaby, BC V5H2X6 (Canada) Contact: 604-430-4973 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Reply to Fabian Fagerholm from Ted (Re: Questions for all candidates: the DPL as a creator of public opinion)
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 06:05:52PM -0800, Ted Walther wrote: On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 04:23:36PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 01:01:16PM -0800, Ted Walther wrote: Debian is very much affected by the FOSS world in general. The biggest example I can think of is the patent regulations that were used to attack the free mp3 encoding programs. Because of that patent threat, Debian is very careful about the kind of mp3 support it ships by default. That would be Ubuntu. Or perhaps you're thinking of Fedora. But it would not be Debian. I disagree. lame, and other mp3 encoding programs were removed from main, contrib, and non-free several years ago. MP3 encoding just isn't supported by Debian. Perhaps you configured apt to bring in your mp3 encoding software from third-party repositories. Far more annoying than the limitations on mp3 are the limitations on video playback. Have you never noticed that many mpeg, wmv, and avi movies don't play out of the box on Debian? The codecs are tied up by patents, secret specs, and other roadblocks. Sure, you can download a tarball of binary dll's and exe's put out by Microsoft. You can put these non-free binary blobs in particular directories and suddenly be able to watch the videos you download. But this isn't free in a way that Debian can support, and my Aunt Tilly (not her real name) would never figure out how to do that. Good point, I completely forgot about LAME and friends. You're very right on that one and I'm wrong. David, the teletubbies on IRC were egging you on to bait me. You gave in to them. I hope you develop better character, so you can make a decent opposition party when I am in office as DPL. I expect better of you. Actually they were doing the opposite, telling me to not engage you, but I felt it necessary to at least correct you on this one. Happily I learned something in the process, which is good, and I'm always willing to admit my mistakes, as just as I made one above. I have no desire to be an opposition party to anything, but merely maintain my packages well and keep Debian alive and kicking. That said, if you did become DPL I'd probably leave the project, but that's just my own personal feelings which I hope speak well enough for my character. I wouldn't be surprised if others felt the same. - David Nusinow p.s. Where are your answers to my questions for you elsewhere? I'm very curious as to your planned course of action on the desktop issues which you bash the project for in your platform without any notable contributions past or present. It doesn't speak very well of your character. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
