Re: Question for candidate Schuldei

[Andreas Barth]

* Daniel Stone ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060317 02:00]:
> #dplteam2006:
> < stockholm> - the littel oppinon poll that i did (asking ~30-40 people)
>  was totally overwealming: everyone but mjg would have been
>  in favour [of the proposed GR to force people into
>  DSA/security/ftpmaster -daniels] and could not really
>  believ that the ftp-masters/DSA would honestly say that
>  they could not be delegated
> < Maulkin> stockholm: Not true.
> < Maulkin> I didn't say that.
> < vorlon> stockholm: er, was I part of your opinion poll?
> < stockholm> vorlon: no, you werent
> 
> If you lie and seek to misrepresent the truth, to your own DPL team, why
> do you expect to be trusted with the entire Project?  Additionally, do
> you believe that a DPL team can be effective and successful if they are
> provided with incorrect information?

Hey, I didn't read that as "all people except mjg were in favour", but
just what it was - that all people he asked were in favour. So, Andreas
didn't misrepresent the truth (at least not to me).


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
  http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Question for candidate Schuldei

[Neil McGovern]

On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 02:59:49AM +0200, Daniel Stone wrote:
> #dplteam2006:
> < stockholm> - the littel oppinon poll that i did (asking ~30-40 people)
>  was totally overwealming: everyone but mjg would have been
>  in favour [of the proposed GR to force people into
>  DSA/security/ftpmaster -daniels] and could not really
>  believ that the ftp-masters/DSA would honestly say that
>  they could not be delegated
> < Maulkin> stockholm: Not true.
> < Maulkin> I didn't say that.
> < vorlon> stockholm: er, was I part of your opinion poll?
> < stockholm> vorlon: no, you werent
> 
> Andreas,
> If you lie and seek to misrepresent the truth, to your own DPL team, why
> do you expect to be trusted with the entire Project?  Additionally, do
> you believe that a DPL team can be effective and successful if they are
> provided with incorrect information?
> 

I was assuming that this was this poll was the one I was involved with,
and later turned out to be incorrect. Andreas doesn't seek to lie and
misrepresent.

I know it's the trick-de-jour to pull IRC logs out from everywhere, but
I'm not going to. You need CONTEXT for these to work.

Daniel: with respect, you seem to have been pretty adamant in your
attempt to grind Andreas into the ground on that channel. You've been
asked for input and not provided any. As I explained to you previously,
input is welcomed from ALL. Now, when asked for your ideas, you coudn't
provide anything positive. Please stop spreading this FUD.

Neil (Maulkin in the above log)
-- 
A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q. Why is top posting bad?
gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Question for Ted Walther.

[MJ Ray]

"Zephaniah E. Hull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> During the debate you made a number of assertions about a number of
> others running for DPL, specificly alleging that you had specific
> evidence of religious discrimination.
> 
> After specificly accusing Jeroen van Wolffelaar of this he asked for
> specific examples, granting you permission to pull from his posts to
> debian-private, and you stated that you could to produce such examples
> in the timeframe of the debate.

AFAICT, the OP asked me on IRC to reply to this post.

I thought that was a particularly politician-like offer to make. TTBOMK,
Jeroen van Wolffelaar has not posted such things to -private, but has said
on IRC that he supports certain -private posts that I find very offensive.
I can't identify the posts on -vote without leaking -private: I'm not
comfortable posting Message-Ids because many contain patterns which let
the public identify the poster and even some of the datelines will let
you make a good guess with simple traffic analysis of the public lists.

It's awful that there has been so much hate on -private, but we should
not break the promise of privacy. Trying to keep that promise is more
important to me than "We will not hide problems" about this: all(?) voters
can go review private 200508 and 2006* on master for themselves to see
the highlights and play "spot the candidate username". AIUI, for the
public, the 2006 dirty laundry can be aired in early 2009 unless blocked,
thanks to GR 2005-02 originally started by Anthony Towns.

Most of the time, I'll discount IRC. People vent, people say random crap
and the casual observer can't usually tell what is anger, humour, serious
or whatever. It's also frustratingly hard to correct, easy to lose threads
and there's a maze of confusingly different protocols and rules to follow
in many channels.

That's why some of Jeroen van Wolffelaar's debate comments moved him down
my preferences, but I think he's still above NOTA.

Hope that explains,
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Question for Ted Walther.

[Enrico Zini]

#debian-dpl-debate, last night:

01:44 <+TedWalther> JeroenVW:
   also, I've started keeping IRC logs, which include your own
   prejudiced attitudes.
01:46 <+JeroenVW> TedWalther:
   can you prove one quote where I'm discriminating based on religion?
   Permission to quote granted hereby
01:47 <+TedWalther>
   JeroenVW: not in the timeframe of this debate.  we can do it later
   though

This list, today:

> >Would you please now produce, in public, to this list, the evidence
> >you stated to have against each person running for DPL, unedited,
> >with information on how developers can find the examples in question
> >in context wherever possible.
>
> I suggest you hang out on #debian-devel on IRC for a few weeks and
> observe.  If you have access to logs, then view what happened over the
> past couple years.  I don't have days to spend combing through old logs
> and stripping out little bits and deciding what bits of context to keep
> and which to throw away.  The information is all out there.
> 
> The things I mentioned are very real, and very systemic.  The behavior
> is done casually and persistently.

For those who read Debian lists through Slashdot, what we're seeing here
is a DPL candidate accusing Jeroen, promising to provide evidence, and
then being vague when asked to do it.


Ciao,

Enrico curious to see what the krooger index of Debian instanity[1] will
   be this year.


[1] number of people ranking krooger above NOTA.
-- 
GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Candidate questions: expulsions process

[MJ Ray]

Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> No need - Mark Ray did so earlier in the week.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but I think
http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2006/03/msg00269.html
was disliked, because there was a sudden surge in posting
frequency, which many people do when annoyed and that's a
hard habit to break.

Can all see why I think telling someone their opinion is wrong and
irrelevant is an objection to the belief rather than the manner?
If the manner was annoying, criticise the manner. In football
terms: play the ball, not the player!

> Andrew's a Discordian - to the extent that anything can be said about 
> their beliefs (it's not a terribly structured religion), I think it 
> seems reasonably accurate.  "The Discordian death is a brain 
> re-dis-alignment: new shocks and struts!" hardly makes it sound like a 
> bad thing.

If you generalise from the label despite the specific statements
by the individual, you'll make all sorts of bad assumptions,
even for far more structured religions. For example, all the
christian writings about heaven hardly suggest that people
should be very upset by death (for example, "...for the hour
is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear
his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good,
unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation." in Gospel of John 5:28 on,
verse numbering and exact wording may vary by edition) but most
are very upset by death and view it as a sad thing, in my
experience. I don't believe it's because all of them think that
the deceased did evil and is off to hell.

By the way, as a mechanic's son, I see needing new *struts*
as a sign of probably either old age, defects or abuse and
not something to be celebrated. YMMV.

Hope that explains,
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Question for Ted Walther.

[Zephaniah E. Hull]

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 07:10:43PM -0800, Ted Walther wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 07:57:15PM -0500, Zephaniah E. Hull wrote:
> >During the debate you made a number of assertions about a number of
> >others running for DPL, specificly alleging that you had specific
> >evidence of religious discrimination.
> >
> >After specificly accusing Jeroen van Wolffelaar of this he asked for
> >specific examples, granting you permission to pull from his posts to
> >debian-private, and you stated that you could to produce such examples
> >in the timeframe of the debate.
> >
> >Would you please now produce, in public, to this list, the evidence you
> >stated to have against each person running for DPL, unedited, with
> >information on how developers can find the examples in question in
> >context wherever possible.
> 
> I suggest you hang out on #debian-devel on IRC for a few weeks and
> observe.  If you have access to logs, then view what happened over the
> past couple years.  I don't have days to spend combing through old logs
> and stripping out little bits and deciding what bits of context to keep
> and which to throw away.  The information is all out there.

This is both inconsistent with your statements in the debate[0], and
unacceptable in that you're asking hundreds of developers to spend hours
for things that you have claimed to _have_[1], and then agreed to
present[2].

Saying that the information is all out there is flat out unacceptable,
part of what is being discussed as part of the job as DPL, which you
have agreed with[3], is digging through long debates and/or flame wars
and bringing things to the point of the matter.

If you do not have the time or inclination to dig out information on
something as damning as religious discrimination then how can you
possibly claim to be suitable for the job of DPL?

Respectfully, dig out the information and present it, or stop claiming
that these things are going on, you are doing nothing but harming not
only your own reputation, but that of others of your religion, myself
included.

Zephaniah E. Hull.

(0, 1, and 2 are taken from
http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~mma29/temp/dpldebate/out/phase3.html)

0:
TedWalther: by the way, can you please if you're going to
accuse people, fellow DPL candidates in this case, from discriminating
based on religion, provide proof for such accusations?  I think that's a
very strong accusation to make, and I think it's very bad for the
atmosphere in Debian
...
JeroenVW: thats all been done on the mailing lists. read
through -vote, -devel, and -private

1:
JeroenVW: also, I've started keeping IRC logs, which
include your own prejudiced attitudes.

2:
TedWalther: can you prove one quote where I'm
discriminating based on religion? Permission to quote granted
hereby
...
JeroenVW: not in the timeframe of this debate. we can do
it later though

3: Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on debian-vote,
dated Thu, 16 Mar 2006 19:13:22 -0800.

-- 
  1024D/E65A7801 Zephaniah E. Hull <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   92ED 94E4 B1E6 3624 226D  5727 4453 008B E65A 7801
CCs of replies from mailing lists are requested.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Questions to the candidates

[Bill Allombert]

On Wed, Mar 08, 2006 at 08:16:34AM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote:
> 4. In light of the well organised presence of Skolelinux and the
>professional presence of Ubuntu at several conferences and exhibitions
>do you believe Debian is represented adequately?

I know it is a biaised view point, but as far as the events I attended
were concerned, Debian was better represented than Ubuntu and
Skolelinux.

> 5. Do you see any services for our users or developers missing or
>poorly maintained?  If so, which and what do you plan to do to
>fix this?

There are some service we regularly use but which are not "official",
because they are hosted on DD personal pages, on non Debian machine
or even provided by non-Debian developers. 

I think we should try to make them more official.

One external service that is regularly used is 


A lot of services are run off DD web page on gluck. While this is a good
thing, they tend all to need the content of the Packages files. I wonder
if providing acces to a SQL database giving access to the Packages
contents would reduce the duplication of work and the load on gluck.

> 6. What is your opinion about the current situation with the backports
>and volatile archives?  Currently they don't run on projects assets.

As I understand, backports.org has been relatively recently restructured
to use the DAK archive suit. This is a good move toward integration in
Debian proper. 

I expect both volatile and backports will be mature enought to be
integrated to Debian by the time Etch release. The exact policy 
and 'term of service' for backports should be worked on.

> 7. What is your opinion about the current situation with the snapshot
>archive?  Currently it doesn't run on projects assets.

This is certainly a very important service. In a lot of case it is the
easiest (and sometimes the only) way to roll back. It also has suffered
from support problem. We should definitively integrate it in Debian
if we have the resources to do so.

Cheers,
-- 
Bill. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Imagine a large red swirl here. 


pgpujHU6xym0e.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions to the candidates

[Julien BLACHE]

Bill Allombert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

>> 4. In light of the well organised presence of Skolelinux and the
>>professional presence of Ubuntu at several conferences and exhibitions
>>do you believe Debian is represented adequately?
>
> I know it is a biaised view point, but as far as the events I attended
> were concerned, Debian was better represented than Ubuntu and
> Skolelinux.

Thanks Bill ;)

JB.

-- 
 Julien BLACHE - Debian & GNU/Linux Developer - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 
 Public key available on  - KeyID: F5D6 5169 
 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Q for all candidates [was Re: Question for Anthony Towns]

[Clint Adams]

> Dear Anthony Towns,
> 
> When I sent you a private mail complaining about the ad-hominem style of
> one of your posts on -devel, you published it on your blog. Will you do
> the same with the private mails sent you as a DPL, if you were elected ?

I'd like to know the other candidates' positions on such matters.

Do you find such actions acceptable, and, if you believe in respecting
people's privacy, at what point would the good of the project outweigh
the privacy of an individual mailing you privately?  Is there a
distinction to be drawn between your own email address and
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Question for Ted Walther.

[Craig Sanders]

On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 12:27:03PM -0500, Zephaniah E. Hull wrote:

> Respectfully, dig out the information and present it, or stop claiming
> that these things are going on, you are doing nothing but harming not
> only your own reputation, but that of others of your religion, myself
> included.

so - what, exactly, is he claiming as discrimination? is it merely the
fact that some people hold and occasionally express opinions about his
(or other) religions that he does not approve of? well, tough - you have
a right to your own religion, but you DO NOT have a right to demand
that everyone feels the same respect for it that you do. 

for example, i don't expect walther to have any respect for my opinion
that all religions are a form of insanity (to varying degrees depending
on the nature and fervour of belief), and i'm damned if i'm going
to perjure myself and express any respect for his religion when i
honestly believe it is dangerously insane (in his case, particularly
so - at the far end of the loony scale, combining extremist right-wing
fundamentalism, misogyny, and anti-semitism).


discrimination is quite specific - it is not simply expressing an
opinion. it is the misuse of power over another person because of some
arbitrary & irrelevant factor, like their religion, height, weight,
gender, sexual preference, appearance, political views, etc. it's hard
to see how this can possibly be a factor in debian since we're all
volunteers and nobody has any power over anyone else.


but you've got to feel sorry for walther - after all, he's a member of
that most oppressed of minorities: white male middle-class christians.
apart from 90+% of the world's wealth and power and opportunities,
they've got nothing, nothing at all.



craig

-- 
craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   (part time cyborg)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]