Re: Question for all candidates: Release process
Reading Wouter's post in this thread just now I realize I made a fairly stupid mistake when writing my mail. Frans Pop wrote: This seems to be what the RT has been focussing on after Sarge. [...] s/Sarge/Etch/ During the Sarge release these two sides were in balance. After that, for Sarge stable releases and the Lenny release, [...] s/Sarge/Etch/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201003160723.26265.elen...@planet.nl
Question to Candidates: Disappearing DPLs?
Hi! I have a question to the candidates: History has shown that DPLs more or less disappear not too long after their period or at least reduce their visible efforts immensly. I wonder where you see the reasons for this trend, what your impression is about it and wether you try to follow that trend or what you will try to do to not have this happen to you, too. Thanks, Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316073003.ga32...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: Bug#574059: Provide link to SPI meeting minutes and/or treasurer reports in appropriate (TBD) location
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 05:58:48PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
I honestly never thought about it myself, but it's fairly trivial to
file a bug asking for it (and someone who has a better idea than I do
right this second of where it should go could even prepare and/or
commit a patch.
Indeed it is :-), thanks for the initiative!
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Invite to join the Release Team
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 02:56:41AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
If you have such questions, it's usually easiest for everyone involved
if you bring them up on -vote, the relevant forum for this kind of
thing.
Anyway, since you ask (cc to -vote added),
FWIW, Clint later on stated that he has in preparation specific
questions on transparency targeted at -vote. I believe other candidates
have been saving their comments on this specific issue for that, I
surely am :-)
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Question to Candidates: Disappearing DPLs?
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 08:30:03AM +0100, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
I have a question to the candidates: History has shown that DPLs more
or less disappear not too long after their period or at least reduce
their visible efforts immensly. I wonder where you see the reasons for
this trend, what your impression is about it and wether you try to
follow that trend or what you will try to do to not have this happen to
you, too.
DPLs continue to be volunteers and as such they can be hit by any kind
of time demands from their job, their personal life, etc. Probably, the
fact that they are in a central position, which is expected to
communicate a lot, make their disappearance more evident than those of
other fellow DDs.
That being equal for all volunteers, there are probably additional
causes such as: the burden of the task (I imagine), extra-stress, and
even burn-out. I personally take these latter risks very seriously and
that's part of the reason why, if elected, I will put on all my other
Debian activities for the duration of the term.
(I've discussed in another thread and in my platform the precautions
I'll took to avoid that my current Debian duties remain unattended.)
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Invite to join the Release Team
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 08:48:20AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 02:56:41AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: If you have such questions, it's usually easiest for everyone involved if you bring them up on -vote, the relevant forum for this kind of thing. Anyway, since you ask (cc to -vote added), FWIW, Clint later on stated that he has in preparation specific questions on transparency targeted at -vote. Yes, indeed; I only noticed that after I sent the above-quoted mail. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question to all Candidates: Project Funds and donations
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:37:35AM +0700, Paul Wise wrote: On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Wouter Verhelst wou...@debian.org wrote: b) What qualifies a contributor to become a Debian Partner? What qualifies a Debian Partner? I don't think we have a formal list of Debian Partners (but I could be wrong). I'm also not convinced we need one. If we do have such a list that I'm not aware of, it might be a good idea to see if it's working well. I don't think I'll be working much in this area, however. http://www.debian.org/partners/ Right; so the partnership program is a way to acknowledge long-time Debian contributing organisations, such as sponsors, donors, etc. It could be a proper way to thank such organisations; however, it might be good to more actively work on that list. For instance, it still lists Sun Microsystems as a partner (we may have to confirm they still want to be one, and replace the name by Oracle if they do); and some of the links to more information to some of the partners' websites that I followed are dead, which could mean that they've stopped helping Debian. I'm not sure that fits my definition of 'working well'; I should probably look into this a bit more, though. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 02:09:18PM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: What are you referring to here when you write Code of Conduct? Do you mean the Debian Community Guidelines (as I guess), or rather http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ? Yes, the Community Guidelines. As I've always understood that the idea of these Guidelines is to eventually replace or enhance the CoC, I consider them a draft for a new CoC. I think that they should be validated by a vote, so that we can know if the community as a whole agrees with them or not. However, I don't know why Enrico hasn't submitted such a vote. I didn't because they are more like a list of useful suggestions to improve online communication, kind of like a HOWTO, rather than a policy to be followed. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Hi, On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:45:33AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Given the above, I believe the most important task ahead of us is making Debian more attractive for users and prospective contributors; that is what I intend to work on. How do you intend to work on this? Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 3221 2323190 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316123551.gc16...@torres.zugschlus.de
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, 16.03.2010 at 01:45:33 +0100, Wouter Verhelst wou...@debian.org wrote: increasing. By definition, that means the ratio of Debian Developers per package has been doing down, and thus also that the core infrastructure has less contributors. Having more packages does not necessarily mean that only fringe packages are added; useful new software is written all the time, and the fact that useful new software is written does not make useful old software disappear. Also, the pure number of packages is not a good indicator for package quality. There are packages that are almost no-brainers that can be put together in minutes, and there are packages that require weeks of effort to create, and more weeks to maintain. There's no problem in having more few minutes packages because they don't really increase the workload that much. I believe the problem is not that less people are interested in Debian's core infrastructure; the problem is that less people are interested in *Debian*. I have to agree very much on that. We need to work on that. As we say in Dutch, stilstaan is achteruitgaan -- standing still is the same as going backwards -- and We have the same in German: Stillstand ist Rueckschritt. I believe that most languages have a proverb of similar spirit. the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. If it hasn't declined very much, that'd be a good thing already. Given the above, I believe the most important task ahead of us is making Debian more attractive for users and prospective contributors; that is what I intend to work on. This is a very good idea, imho. On a personal note, really by far the most people I hear talking about Linux, are talking about Ubuntu and claim that Debian being unfriendly to the user. -- Kind regards, --Toni++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316121418.30737.qm...@oak.oeko.net
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:35:51PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Hi, On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:45:33AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Given the above, I believe the most important task ahead of us is making Debian more attractive for users and prospective contributors; that is what I intend to work on. How do you intend to work on this? I explain that in my platform. Rather than repeating it here, I suggest you wait until the platforms are published; if you still have questions after that, I will be happy to answer them. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:14:18PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now.
If it hasn't declined very much, that'd be a good thing already.
FWIW, the total number of DDs is not a particularly good indicator of
the work force we have in Debian. Until recently, with the introduction
of (periodic) WAT runs, the number of DDs was just meant to go up and
up, given that people basically needed to voluntarily resign, even if
they have been inactive for very long time. In this election the number
of DDs which have the right to vote will be significantly lower than in
the past, just because the last WAT runs have been more incisive. I
won't derive any more conclusion from that.
The number of _active_ DDs (in terms at least of uploads, vote, BTS
activity, ...) would be much more indicative of the Debian work
force. There is an interesting study conducted by Gaudenz Steinlin and
presented at last DebConf [1,2]. It has shows how the number of Debian
contributors (a large category which also includes people like bug
reporters) has significantly faded in favor of Ubuntu, but that at the
same time the amount of active developers in Debian has continued its
steady growth, sustained by people that get first in touch with Ubuntu
and then start contributing directly to Debian.
Cheers.
[1] https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/events/456.en.html
[2]
http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2009/11/on_mail_addresses_and_upload_rights/
(blog post of mine where I discussed [1] a bit)
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:59:39PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:14:18PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. If it hasn't declined very much, that'd be a good thing already. FWIW, the total number of DDs is not a particularly good indicator of the work force we have in Debian. That is true to some extent, but not entirely. Only Debian Developers can upload random packages, sponsor other people's packages, perform NMUs, etc. I also would feel uncomfortable with having a Debian Maintainer perform an unsupervised upload of a core package like dpkg or glibc. So while Debian Developers are not necessarily the whole work force we have in Debian, they are the core and more important part. Until recently, with the introduction of (periodic) WAT runs, the number of DDs was just meant to go up and up, given that people basically needed to voluntarily resign, even if they have been inactive for very long time. That number was indeed meant to go up, but it didn't. That in itself is indicative of a problem; even with the voluntary-only resigning of people, the influx of new blood did not outperform the exodus of resigning developers. [...] -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316140509.gh7...@celtic.nixsys.be
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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2010: Candidates
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 08:58:35PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx - Debian Project Secretary wrote: Hi, We're now a few days into the campaigning period. The candidates are: - Stefano Zacchiroli - Wouter Verhelst - Charles Plessy - Margarita Manterola The page at http://www.debian.org/vote/2010/vote_001 have been updated. The platforms for the candidates are now also available. So it seems not all mirrors have the pages yet. It might take some time before you can see them. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316211618.ga5...@roeckx.be
Re: Question for all candidates: Release process
Le Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 02:44:15PM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : Releasing is regularly the hardest thing that Debian does, not just technically but also socially. Apart from the standard issues of setting deadlines, RC bug counts being high, and similar difficult technical issues, the process seems to eat volunteers. Dear Russ and everybody, I think that our release process is manpower-hungry by design, and that the more packages and architectures we have, the harder the release is. I propose to refocus our efforts. Solving a thousand of RC bugs is a herculean task for a small group of persons. But why should they do that in the first place? Most of these bugs are the responsibility of the package maintainers. If they can not make their package ready for the release, will they be able to help for stable support? Who will do that work? I propose that we reshape the sections and priorities of our archive, so that it is easy to remove from Testing any RC bug that is not in a core pakcage, and is old and not tagged RFH. In parallel, I propose that the definition of what the ‘core’ is can vary between architectures. The goal is not only to reduce the workload of the release team and the porters. It is also to give some meaning to the presence of a package in a stable release. These packages must be there because there is agreement that enough users are insterested in it, and are comfortable with the idea to keep it at the same version for a long time. For many peripheral leafs and branches of our dependancy tree, let's innovate and distribute them through other channels, like official backports and even the new snapshot system that is being set up. When all of this is aptable from the official Debian mirrors, it will open great opportunities to build tailored Debian systems, for instance with the ‘blends’ framework. Debian is volunteer-driven, so the release can only happen by coordination. Acutally, it is a coordination process by nature: a release is a moment in the development where all the core components work well together. If these components evolve independantly, it will hardly happen by chance. Motivation must be there on both ends. This is why I propose to limit the release to the packages where there is a real motivation for it. When maintainers feel the need for a release, they will have to talk to the others and eventually make concessions on their timeline. Not to mention that for many of our packages, there is actualy nobody who regularly cares for them anymore. In that sense, I think that membership issues are one of the roots of our difficulties to release. As a DPL I will help the Project to evolve its release and membership process through my constitutional roles: leadership in discussions, GRs, and delegations. I expect as a result that the release work will become much more social than technical, with all participants doing their part of the housekeeping work. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100317005207.ga6...@kunpuu.plessy.org
Re: Question for all candidates: Release process
Wouter Verhelst dijo [Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:57:13AM +0100]: In my opinion, the best release we ever had (that I was a part of, at least) was the Etch release process; shortly after Sarge had been released, the release managers had started to regularly update the project as a whole on where we were in the process, and I believe that worked very very well. During the whole of the Etch release process, there was never really a point in time where I felt I didn't know how far away the release still was. It feels to me as though the frequency and/or quality of updates has reduced somewhat since the Etch release, though I'll readily admit that that is just a gut feeling. At any rate, I do not feel I am as up-to-date as I was during the Etch release process on when the release is going to happen. I don't think it's going to take more than, say, half a year, though. Hmm, you got me thinking here on why this happened, as I share your impression. Maybe it was because the project as a whole put more care into the release process after the massive pain it was to release Sarge, a three-year-long pain we didn't want to suffer again? For Lenny we lost some of that push, although the release process was still mostly swift, with a minor slip regarding what we expected. As for the reasons why we are not freezing yet... I think it is somewhat a lack of commitment to what the Release Team says, as (too) many people felt betrayed with the way the freeze-related announcements were made (a topic that has already been analized here). So, going back to the questioning of the candidates: Do you agree with this very simplistic analysis? If so, how would you push to get the drive and the confidence back? -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100317035655.gb13...@gwolf.org
Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
So, today is April 15, and our Secretary prepares for a very difficult announcement: There is a majority of votes for NOTA. Or we didn't reach quorum. Or whatever you fancy - But the result is, none of the four candidates won the election. As per Constitution 5.2.4, the vote should be repeated, as many times as needed. Lets just assume it was different: The project has voted not to have a leader anymore. What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect? (Yes, quite a hypothetical question. However, if 10-year predictions are allowed, then mine is too ;-) ) -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100317043222.gc13...@gwolf.org
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Wouter Verhelst dijo [Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:45:33AM +0100]: The numbers are easy. The amount of Debian Developers has been approximately steady at about 1000 for the past ten years. Over that same time, the amount of packages in our distribution has been steadily increasing. By definition, that means the ratio of Debian Developers per package has been doing down, and thus also that the core infrastructure has less contributors. Having more packages does not necessarily mean that only fringe packages are added; useful new software is written all the time, and the fact that useful new software is written does not make useful old software disappear. I believe the problem is not that less people are interested in Debian's core infrastructure; the problem is that less people are interested in *Debian*. We need to work on that. As we say in Dutch, stilstaan is achteruitgaan -- standing still is the same as going backwards -- and the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. Umm, yes, but during the seven years I have been part of this project, we shifted from a collections of mostly solo-maintained to a good number of team-maintained packages. And we have opened the DM scheme (imperfect but still much better than not having it IMO), which brings in important numbers of new contributors. We have also, via the MIA runs, lowered the number of inactive developers bloating the numbers. As of today, we have 891 DDs and 107 DMs (at least as keyring-maint is aware). That means the MIA runs lowered the numbers by a quite noticeable ~15% in the last couple of months. And although DDs still outnumber almost 9:1 DMs, the DM scheme is relatively new; I expect DM size to grow to be at least the same size as DD (even taking into account many DMs eventually become DDs). -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100317045658.gd13...@gwolf.org
