Re: Q: NEW process licence requirements

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Le dimanche, 1 avril 2018, 00.11:58 h CEST Adrian Bunk a écrit :
> Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 11:03:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > Like it or not, but there *is* a big difference in the project making
> > something available for the big wide world (which a public NEW would
> > be), or a user putting it somewhere readable for everyone even though
> > the latter might be using project resources too.
> 
> What is the big (legal) difference between distributing something
> from the Debian group on the Debian machine salsa.debian.org, and
> distributing the same from a different Debian machine?

People are mirroring the Debian pool under a set of well-understood norms, as 
that's what the Debian project "produces" (think of the mirror network, people 
pressing CDs, etc). A .deb in a Debian suite in the Debian pool isn't 
comparable to a random .deb, as only the former has the Debian-seal-of-
approval (DFSG & fulfills releasability criterias).

Salsa is not meant to be mirrored by third-parties, and really shouldn't.

Cheers,
OdyX

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Re: Q: NEW process licence requirements

[Paul Wise]

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 6:11 AM, Adrian Bunk wrote:

> What is the big (legal) difference between distributing something
> from the Debian group on the Debian machine salsa.debian.org, and
> distributing the same from a different Debian machine?

The big difference appears to be the Social Contract (and DFSG), which
we generally don't seem to apply to alioth/salsa, especially because
they often contain full upstream development history, which might or
might not contain non-free material.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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[Kurt Roeckx]

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Re: Question: What would you like to see {more,less} of?

[Chris Lamb]

Dear Bdale,

> I've been startled sometimes at how other read what I wrote instead of
> what I meant, and how often a very small tweak in wording was all it
> took to clear up the distinction...

Thank you for sharing your wisdom :)


Regards,

-- 
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 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: Question: What would you like to see {more,less} of?

[Bdale Garbee]

Chris Lamb  writes:

> Every time I tried drafting such "loaded" opinions in the past I could
> already hear the (perhaps justified…) pushback and thus decided not to
> get closer involved.

I think it depends a lot on how local vs general the topic is.

For example, in my second (successful) run at DPL when I started pushing
the "universal operating system" meme in my platform, one of the recent
experiences I'd had at a conference in Mexico made it utterly clear to
me that we absolutely needed to put more attention on translation of
the installer... so I was eager to shine a spotlight on that in my
platform and keep talking about it during my term.

But I, too, struggled with the idea of how "involved" to become in
smaller decisions, most of which clearly belonged in the hands of the
most actively involved developers.

A good step to take, which I've made heavy use of over the years, is to
find a few trusted friends you can pass draft texts by for feedback.
I've been startled sometimes at how other read what I wrote instead of
what I meant, and how often a very small tweak in wording was all it
took to clear up the distinction...

Bdale


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Re: Q: NEW process licence requirements

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 10:57:24AM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
>...
> The other, critical, factor nobody has raised is time. Why not
> assume good faith here? After all, which is more likely - the FTP
> team are sitting around doing nothing and happy/enjoying the current
> state of affairs, or too busy with life/family/work and the quotidien
> admin tasks & other breakages that they don't have as spare cycles as
> we would like to work on this?
>...

This is not about assuming bad faith, more about bad priorities.

There are plenty of cases where people get annoyed by the NEW handling,
and when you say that the ftp team needs a thick skin that is also due
to many people thinking "Why did the idiots in the ftp teams do this
with my work?".

>From outside copyright handling in NEW ranges from
  How did this package pass NEW with this copyright problem that is 
  obvious when looking at debian/copyright?
through
  What the legal reason that the ftp team insists on adding all author
  attribution to debian/copyright for GPLv2 software?
to
  What is the legal reason that adding all author attribution is not
  required for src:linux to pass NEW?

>From outside all this appears arbitrary and unfair, and you might be
underestimating the amount of frustration it causes.

Some cases might be an ftp team member making a mistake.
Many cases might be people not understanding why something is required
for legal reasons.

Most of us have more Debian TODO items than available Debian time.
Waiting for spare cycles might therefore not be a good way forward
for something that causes widespread frustration.

You were calling it "imposing an ultimatum", I would rather call it
"agree with the ftp team on a deadline".

cu
Adrian

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Q: NEW process licence requirements

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 04:11:40PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 01, 2018 at 10:36:23PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > If someone does go down the road, then any project creation on salsa
> > would possibly end up needing to be vetted by an admin (or a new team
> > doing this, or a combination of new team and NEW handling, as parts of
> > this surely could be merged then).
> 
> If someone does go down the road, the most likely result will be to
> decommission salsa:
> 
> With a bureaucratic process in place that might take weeks just for 
> getting a new git tree approved, most people would consider external
> places like GitHub much more attractive and use these instead.

And what about badly licensed or wholly copyrighted by EvilCorp patches in
the BTS?  Or even, whole tarballs attached to bug reports?

Or the mailing list, for that matter.  You also can have attachments, or put
short but sensitive pieces inline, like:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> > There is an argument for this having changed now, with the new setup,
> > yes, but following that opens such a big can, I don't want to do this.
> > Thats something the DPL might want to get some informed (ie. lawyers)
> > opinion on, how free that service can be.
> >
> > I would love for the outcome of that to be something like "It's fine if
> > open, as long as there is a contact that quickly disables reported
> > $legalfoo violations".

You can't have basically any user contributions if you'd require
pre-approval.  So, having just this one piece pre-approval rather than
removal-upon-report is inconsistent.

> > Also, in a way we do assume people NOT intentionally putting bad stuff
> > up, though the current system does make it farely easy to play bad here.
> 
> This a fair assumption for the DD-only NEW, but not for salsa.

DDs are already trusted wrt adding extra stuff to existing packages, giving
them access to this temporary holding ground is reasonable.  Anyone else,
even a DM, needs to seek a DD's review.  Yet we allow anyone untrusted to
put any crap on Salsa.  

Copyright is a bad enough drain on the world already, let's not suffer more
due to a tight _inconsistent_ interpretation.

Plus, there's already a mechanism for removing things from NEW.  There's a
fat button emblazoned with "REJECT" in all-caps.


Meow!
-- 
ᛊᚨᚾᛁᛏᚣ᛫ᛁᛊ᛫ᚠᛟᚱ᛫ᚦᛖ᛫ᚹᛖᚨᚲ

Re: Q: NEW process licence requirements

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sun, Apr 01, 2018 at 10:36:23PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> On 14994 March 1977, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> 
> > Since Debian distributing whatever random people upload to salsa
> > is fine for you, I fail to see the point why you would consider 
> > distributing what is in the DD-only NEW a huge problem.
> 
> It is not fine. But I've chosen to not go down the road that would be
> needed here. I've got enough on my plate, I can't put this on.

The sensible time for anyone to bring up this topic would have been 
during or before the Alioth replacement sprint.

I am not involved with salsa, but this kind of changes tend to be a
lot less work when they are included in the planning phase, instead
of changes to a heavily used running system.

> If someone does go down the road, then any project creation on salsa
> would possibly end up needing to be vetted by an admin (or a new team
> doing this, or a combination of new team and NEW handling, as parts of
> this surely could be merged then).

If someone does go down the road, the most likely result will be to
decommission salsa:

With a bureaucratic process in place that might take weeks just for 
getting a new git tree approved, most people would consider external
places like GitHub much more attractive and use these instead.

At that point it might no longer make sense to spend scarce Debian 
resources on server maintainance and contents vetting.

> Right now, the handling of stuff on salsa follows what was done for
> alioth "It may have a .debian.org, but its not run by Debian, so the
> project chose to ignore parts of the problems with it". And implicitly
> either put it onto the shoulders of the alioth admins, or the individual.

So in case of problems with contents on salsa, we expect that the
salsa administrators will pay all legal expenses out of their own 
pockets without any support from Debian?

> There is an argument for this having changed now, with the new setup,
> yes, but following that opens such a big can, I don't want to do this.
> Thats something the DPL might want to get some informed (ie. lawyers)
> opinion on, how free that service can be.
>
> I would love for the outcome of that to be something like "It's fine if
> open, as long as there is a contact that quickly disables reported
> $legalfoo violations".

If that's the outcome, it would be great.

> Also, in a way we do assume people NOT intentionally putting bad stuff
> up, though the current system does make it farely easy to play bad here.

This a fair assumption for the DD-only NEW, but not for salsa.

> bye, Joerg

cu
Adrian

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Question: What would you like to see {more,less} of?

[Chris Lamb]

Hi Martin, 

> > Every time I tried drafting such "loaded" opinions in the past
> > I could already hear the (perhaps justified…) pushback and thus
> > decided not to get closer involved.
> 
> Don't you think being a leader sometimes requires to withstand some
> pushback

Of course, but not if one would agree with that pushback. :) 


Regards,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: Question: What would you like to see {more,less} of?

[Chris Lamb]

Hi Martin, 

> > Every time I tried drafting such "loaded" opinions in the past
> > I could already hear the (perhaps justified…) pushback and thus
> > decided not to get closer involved.
> 
> Don't you think being a leader sometimes requires to withstand some
> pushback

Of course, but not if one would agree with that pushback. :) 


Regards,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: Question: What would you like to see {more,less} of?

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Chris Lamb  [2018-04-02 21:41 +1200]:
> Every time I tried drafting such "loaded" opinions in the past
> I could already hear the (perhaps justified…) pushback and thus
> decided not to get closer involved.

Don't you think being a leader sometimes requires to withstand some
pushback, or if justified, then this pushback ought to be included
in the vision they share?

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"i am not in favour of long engagements. they give people the
 opportunity of finding out each other's character before marriage,
 which i think is never advisable."
  -- oscar wilde


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Re: Q: NEW process licence requirements

[Chris Lamb]

Hi Adrian,

> > do we really want to a culture in Debian where it is acceptable to
> > publically belittle others' efforts using such emotionally loaded
> > words or in such a combatitive / adversarial manner?
> 
> you omitted the relevant part from my email

I'm sorry you feel misquoted but I believe I explicitly praised you
in my last mail for pointing out the potential disparity between
perception & reality and even underlined my agreement with you.

> > If you will permit me to exaggerate for a moment, if anybody is leaving
> > the Project it is due to sustained exposure to such low-level
> > toxicity.  :(
> 
> There are two orders of magnitude of people more in the project that 
> need a thick skin due to the toxity of the intransparent NEW handling
> of the ftp team than there are members in the ftp team.

Again, apologies for any miscommunication but I was referring to
members of the Debian Project as a whole who perhaps do not find it
satisfying to be part of generally negative interactions, rather than
members of the FTP team specifically.

> the only person in the project who is able to push for improvements
> in this area is the DPL.

Which, as I mentioned, I have been persuing in my role as DPL and as
an FTP-assistant. Indeed, a glance at my mailbox suggests that things
have been in motion even since your reply to me.

The other, critical, factor nobody has raised is time. Why not
assume good faith here? After all, which is more likely - the FTP
team are sitting around doing nothing and happy/enjoying the current
state of affairs, or too busy with life/family/work and the quotidien
admin tasks & other breakages that they don't have as spare cycles as
we would like to work on this?

> The only alternative would be a GR to override the DPL decision 
> regarding the ftp team delegation, and no matter the outcome this
> would be ugly.
> 
> It is therefore disappointing when a DPL candidate tries to wiggle out 
> of making a commitment

There is no wiggle; I think I already implied that a DPL passive-
aggressively threatening the FTP team with a General Resolution
masquerading as a schedule would not lead to the situation improving
any quicker. :)


Best wishes,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: Question: What would you like to see {more,less} of?

[Chris Lamb]

Dear Enrico,

> I wouldn't want the DPL to express their opinion with the expectation
> that everyone should agree or follow their lead, but more with the idea
> of giving a sense of direction

Nod. There are a few situations where I would like to have liked to
done this during my first term.

However, would you have any concrete suggestions for phrasing or ideas
for framing this that could not be interpreted as a top-down directive,
yet not being "just another" voice in the mix?

Every time I tried drafting such "loaded" opinions in the past I could
already hear the (perhaps justified…) pushback and thus decided not to
get closer involved.


Best wishes,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-