Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Hideki Yamane]

Hi,

On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:31:18 +0200
Julian Andres Klode  wrote:
> Under 4.1.5 of the Constitution, the developers by way of GR are the
> body who has the power to issue nontechnical statements.

 I disagree with it. I want to define the Debian Project as people who
 do Free and Open Source Software development and its distribution to
 give some more "possibilities" to the world, not the political organization.


 And I also agree with the emotion that in the behind of this GR. However,
 that's the different thing.

-- 
Hideki Yamane 

Re: Question to all candidates: rotation on positions of power

[Hideki Yamane]

Hi Charles,

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:51:44 +0900
Charles Plessy  wrote:
> I expect a term limit to increase rotation on the positions of power,
> with the following benefits:
> 
>  - reduce the risk of burn-out of the delegates,
> 
>  - motivate fresh people to have the ambition to serve in these
>positions, because it becomes predictable when driving seats become
>available,
> 
>  - motivate the current delegates to put their own replacement as part
>of their planning, making us more resilient to sudden (or chronic)
>unavailabilities,
> 
>  - increase the chances that those of us who keep a strong involvement
>over many years diversify their experience, knitting our different
>subgroups into a more harmonious society.
> 
>  - increase our chances that challenging ideas accepted.

 Okay, thank you. I agree with all of above.
  

> In brief, everything good (and everything bad) that "more turnover" is
> expected to bring in most of social structures where we evolve outside
> Debian.

 "Mixing" people is necessary to maintain its organization.
 And don't forget, "just only limiting" is not mixing. With "fresh blood"
 is what we want :) Then we need more information about current status
 of those works, we ask them to give "bits from" mails.


-- 
Hideki Yamane 

Re: To all candidates: Debian and people with disabilities

[Hideki Yamane]

Hi,

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:37:03 +0100
Jean-Philippe MENGUAL  wrote:
> I dont think DPL can influence this, indeed. 

 DPL can influence it, IMHO. But, of course cannot force it.
 Just point "the direction" and show the idea behind it and discuss -
 that's what I want to do.


> Difficult question indeed. Most information are on 
> wiki.debian.org/accessibility.

 "Pulling" the information is a bit hard these days since there are
 a lot of info and not well constructed. And there is no "feelings"
 with current situations. Improving accessibility is a good thing,
 but push people to do so, we need some emotional "gas" to heat our
 heart. So, it is important that "pushing" information about current
 situation of accessibility in Debian and what you want to do with
 it is necessary, IMO.
 

-- 
Hideki Yamane 

Re: Question to all candidates: GDPR compliance review

[Felix Lechner]

Hi Adrian,

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 1:24 PM Adrian Bunk  wrote:
>
> The discussion starting in [1] is about privacy in Debian with a focus
> on the GDPR of the European Union.
>
> There seems to be a general agreement that privacy in Debian falls
> short of the legal minimum requirements at least in the EU.
>
> Even the exact scope of the problem is not clear.
>
> Question to all candidates:
>
> If elected, will you ask our Data Protection team and our GDPR lawyer to
> jointly do a review of all handling of personal data in Debian regarding
> GDPR compliance, and make the results of the review available to all
> developers?

Yes.

The release of any findings may be redacted, or may be a summary.
Recipients may be required to sign a confidentiality agreement coupled
with an indemnity in the event of a breach, and a release of claims,
or both.

In all cases, I reserve the right to act on the advice of counsel—but
with an explanation to you.

I will treat you the same way that I would wish to be treated if our
roles were reversed. I am committed to transparency when possible.

Kind regards,
Felix Lechner

Question to all candidates: GDPR compliance review

[Adrian Bunk]

The discussion starting in [1] is about privacy in Debian with a focus 
on the GDPR of the European Union.

There seems to be a general agreement that privacy in Debian falls 
short of the legal minimum requirements at least in the EU.

Even the exact scope of the problem is not clear.

Question to all candidates:

If elected, will you ask our Data Protection team and our GDPR lawyer to 
jointly do a review of all handling of personal data in Debian regarding 
GDPR compliance, and make the results of the review available to all 
developers?

Thanks
Adrian

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2022/03/msg8.html

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Felix Lechner]

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:33 AM Julian Andres Klode  wrote:
>
> nontechnical statements.

"Life is like a flute. It may have many holes and emptiness but if you
work on it carefully, it can play magical melodies."

First comment here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5qhNRmMilI

Kind regards,
Felix Lechner

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 06:57:06PM +0200, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
>...
> At least for Taiwan and Kosovo, I think that by holding DebConfs in
> those places and engaging with their self-determined governments we
> have de-facto accepted them as self-determined sovereign nations.

I think that you are 100% wrong on that.

The handful people who are choosing Debconf locations cannot make
political statements on behalf of the whole project.

If a Debconf location is also considered a political statement as you 
imply then we have to choose Debconf locations by means of GR, starting 
with a GR right now whether Debian wants to consider Kosovo a 
self-determined sovereign nation by holding Debconf 2022 there.

If Debian would ever consider Taiwan a self-determined sovereign nation,
we would de facto exclude people in China from contributing to Debian.

Is holding a Debconf in Israel a political statement by Debian that 
people in Palestine should not have to right to vote in any country?

cu
Adrian

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Gunnar Wolf]

Julian Andres Klode dijo [Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 06:57:06PM +0200]:
> > I think this is a good position, especially in this case.
> > 
> > We have Debian developers and users in Ukraine and Russia: hostilities 
> > continue.
> > If the project were to endorse this, you might put people in a dangerous
> > situation - in an area subject to Russian control, anybody involved with
> > Debian, even peripherally, would be breaking Russian law if the above
> > passed and might be subject to 15 years imprisonment.
> > [A factual statement with no further judgment].
> 
> Can you provide a source? Regardless though, I can imagine a crumbling
> regime to do basically anything, and this is certainly a valid point,
> and also a problem for any of our Russian DDs if they were to face priso
> for association with an enemy organisation or whatever.

Regardless of whether Andrew's concerns are to be feared in the
current situation, lets apply them in general. If our project aligns
to either side in a geopolitical issue, whatever that issue might be,
it could be expected that DDs (or, more widely, Debian Contributors)
in the affected regions could face problems due to their
identification with our project. We can avoid Russian and Ukranian,
Chinese and Taiwanes, Serbian and Kosovan, Israeli and Palestinian
Debian people many issues by refraining from issuing statements
outside our main sphere of interest.

> > If this is a precedent, would you feel as happy to make a value call on
> > the rights of the Karens / Rohinggya in Myanmar? The Hmong across SE Asian 
> > borders? Strong feelings about Taiwanese status, flag, designation have
> > already caused issues in Debian and other Linux distributions.
> 
> At least for Taiwan and Kosovo, I think that by holding DebConfs in
> those places and engaging with their self-determined governments we
> have de-facto accepted them as self-determined sovereign nations.

Please don't read that much into it. A lot of discussion about this
precise topic was generated when we chose Israel for DebConf20 (which
was, as you might be aware, converted to an online conference due to a
strange bug that's not reported in our BTS, although it might have
been observed to have impacted Debian development during the past two
years ;-) ).

DebConf chooses the place where we will host our conference not based
on the politics, not because of the countries -- but based on the work
and the commitment shown by the organizing teams. The Israeli proposal
was mainly put together by Tzafrir, Lior and Talat, coalescing
commitment of several other people. The Kosovo bid was mostly pushed
by Enkelena, joining forces with FLOSSK. For Taiwan, we had a somewhat
larger team. We did _NOT_ choose any of those countries (nor any other
DebConf editions due to their governments.

We _have_ been beneficary from resources directly granted by
governments. We _do_ consider some geopolitical issues when choosing a
DebConf venue, such as the ability to obtain visas or the risk it
would pose to our attendees (i.e. countries where homosexuality is
forbidden). But we do not "choose sides" nor endorse any government or
such entity.

- Gunnar Wolf
  DebConf Committee member


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Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Julian Andres Klode]

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 03:46:46PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 04:17:42PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 12:31:18PM +0200, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> > > Under 4.1.5 of the Constitution, the developers by way of GR are the
> > > body who has the power to issue nontechnical statements.
> > > 
> > > This is a proposal for Debian to issue a statement on an
> > > issue of the day as given as an example, the recent invasion
> > > of Ukraine.
> > > 
> > >  Text of GR 
> > > 
> > > The Debian project issues the following statement:
> > > 
> > > The Debian project strongly condemns the invasion of Ukraine by
> > > Russia. The Debian projects affirms that Ukrain is a souvereign
> > > nation which includes the Donbas regions of Luhansk, as well as
> > > Crimea, which has already been illegaly annexed by Russia.
> > 
> > I do not believe that Debian starting issuing such statements for 
> > political issues of the day would be a good idea.
> > 
> 
> I think this is a good position, especially in this case.
> 
> We have Debian developers and users in Ukraine and Russia: hostilities 
> continue.
> If the project were to endorse this, you might put people in a dangerous
> situation - in an area subject to Russian control, anybody involved with
> Debian, even peripherally, would be breaking Russian law if the above
> passed and might be subject to 15 years imprisonment.
> [A factual statement with no further judgment].

Can you provide a source? Regardless though, I can imagine a crumbling
regime to do basically anything, and this is certainly a valid point,
and also a problem for any of our Russian DDs if they were to face priso
for association with an enemy organisation or whatever.

> 
> If this is a precedent, would you feel as happy to make a value call on
> the rights of the Karens / Rohinggya in Myanmar? The Hmong across SE Asian 
> borders? Strong feelings about Taiwanese status, flag, designation have
> already caused issues in Debian and other Linux distributions.

At least for Taiwan and Kosovo, I think that by holding DebConfs in
those places and engaging with their self-determined governments we
have de-facto accepted them as self-determined sovereign nations.

-- 
debian developer - deb.li/jak | jak-linux.org - free software dev
ubuntu core developer  i speak de, en

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Russ Allbery]

Julian Andres Klode  writes:

> Under 4.1.5 of the Constitution, the developers by way of GR are the
> body who has the power to issue nontechnical statements.

> This is a proposal for Debian to issue a statement on an
> issue of the day as given as an example, the recent invasion
> of Ukraine.

>  Text of GR 

> The Debian project issues the following statement:

> The Debian project strongly condemns the invasion of Ukraine by
> Russia. The Debian projects affirms that Ukrain is a souvereign
> nation which includes the Donbas regions of Luhansk, as well as
> Crimea, which has already been illegaly annexed by Russia.

I think this is too far afield of the purpose and subject matter expertise
of Debian for it to be a good idea for us to issue a statement on it.

I understand the desire, and I'm not saying I disagree with the statement
in any way.  But Debian is an organization focused on a specific purpose,
and I think there should be some direct relationship between actions we
take and that purpose.  The previous GR about RMS was highly controversial
for a number of reasons including that one (indeed, the project voted to
not make a statement largely for that reason), and there I think the
connection was far more direct: we work directly with the FSF, we are part
of the free software community and its leadership is directly relevant to
our work, and so forth.

Here, while I suspect this statement is less controversial among project
members, the connection is far more remote.  There really isn't anything
meaningful that Debian could do to act on such a statement.  It's just a
statement about an ongoing world event that's only related to the work of
the project insofar as it's a world event.

I think it's not a good idea to go down this path.  The world is sadly
rife with things that one could take an position on, of varying degrees of
controversy, and I'd rather not get into a world where we're voting on,
say, climate change, universal health care, coups in various countries, or
so forth, when we have no special expertise and no special involvement.

If there's anything concrete that the Debian Project can do within the
scope of our work to assist members of the project who are directly
affected by the invasion, that would be another matter, but I also
strongly suspect that wouldn't require a GR.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)  

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 04:17:42PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 12:31:18PM +0200, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> > Under 4.1.5 of the Constitution, the developers by way of GR are the
> > body who has the power to issue nontechnical statements.
> > 
> > This is a proposal for Debian to issue a statement on an
> > issue of the day as given as an example, the recent invasion
> > of Ukraine.
> > 
> >  Text of GR 
> > 
> > The Debian project issues the following statement:
> > 
> > The Debian project strongly condemns the invasion of Ukraine by
> > Russia. The Debian projects affirms that Ukrain is a souvereign
> > nation which includes the Donbas regions of Luhansk, as well as
> > Crimea, which has already been illegaly annexed by Russia.
> 
> I do not believe that Debian starting issuing such statements for 
> political issues of the day would be a good idea.
> 

I think this is a good position, especially in this case.

We have Debian developers and users in Ukraine and Russia: hostilities continue.
If the project were to endorse this, you might put people in a dangerous
situation - in an area subject to Russian control, anybody involved with 
Debian, even peripherally, would be breaking Russian law if the above
passed and might be subject to 15 years imprisonment.
[A factual statement with no further judgment].

If this is a precedent, would you feel as happy to make a value call on
the rights of the Karens / Rohinggya in Myanmar? The Hmong across SE Asian 
borders? Strong feelings about Taiwanese status, flag, designation have
already caused issues in Debian and other Linux distributions.

Individual manifestations of support, actions, speaking up [subject to
whatever your local laws say about freedom of speech, as ever] - yes
A trans national project such as Debian may find this especially difficult.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater
> Half the people on this planet are living in countries that did not 
> approve the "Aggression against Ukraine" UN resolution, including  
> many Debian contributors.
> 
> Does the Debian project consider the territorial integrity of a country 
> more important than the opinion of the majority of the people living in 
> a part of the country?
> If the Debian project declares it considers Donbas and Crimea to be
> part of Ukraine, will the Debian project also declare that it considers 
> Taiwan to be part of China?
> 
> Does the Debian project support or oppose the independence of Catalonia?
> 
> Kosovo is not a member of the United Nations, and many countries
> (including Ukraine) do consider Kosovo to be a part of Serbia.
> What is the position of the Debian Project on the political status
> of Debconf host Kosovo?
> 
> Different from Kosovo and Taiwan, Palestine at least has observer status 
> at the United Nations, and Palestine is recognized by more United 
> Nations member countries than Kosovo and Taiwan combined.
> What is the position of the Debian project on the status of Palestine?
> 
> Does the Debian project support sanctions against Russia?
> Does the Debian project support the BDS movement?
> 
> Does the Debian project strongly condemn the Saudi intervention in Yemen?
> Are people who work for companies (co-)owned by the government of
> Saudi Arabia welcome in Debian?
> 
> How should the Debian project treat people who participated in the 
> invasion of the sovereign nation Iraq by the United States?
> 
> There would be plenty of potential GRs for such issues of the day.
> 
> 
> Different Debian contributors do have different personal opinions on 
> political topics like the ones above.
> 
> Our Diversity Statement states that the Debian Project welcomes and 
> encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> Debian as a project expressing political opinions destroys diversity, 
> technical collaboration in an international project works best when the 
> project stays as far as possible away from taking sides in political 
> topics of any kind.
> 
> 
> cu
> Adrian
> 

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 12:31:18PM +0200, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> Under 4.1.5 of the Constitution, the developers by way of GR are the
> body who has the power to issue nontechnical statements.
> 
> This is a proposal for Debian to issue a statement on an
> issue of the day as given as an example, the recent invasion
> of Ukraine.
> 
>  Text of GR 
> 
> The Debian project issues the following statement:
> 
> The Debian project strongly condemns the invasion of Ukraine by
> Russia. The Debian projects affirms that Ukrain is a souvereign
> nation which includes the Donbas regions of Luhansk, as well as
> Crimea, which has already been illegaly annexed by Russia.

I do not believe that Debian starting issuing such statements for 
political issues of the day would be a good idea.

Half the people on this planet are living in countries that did not 
approve the "Aggression against Ukraine" UN resolution, including  
many Debian contributors.

Does the Debian project consider the territorial integrity of a country 
more important than the opinion of the majority of the people living in 
a part of the country?
If the Debian project declares it considers Donbas and Crimea to be
part of Ukraine, will the Debian project also declare that it considers 
Taiwan to be part of China?

Does the Debian project support or oppose the independence of Catalonia?

Kosovo is not a member of the United Nations, and many countries
(including Ukraine) do consider Kosovo to be a part of Serbia.
What is the position of the Debian Project on the political status
of Debconf host Kosovo?

Different from Kosovo and Taiwan, Palestine at least has observer status 
at the United Nations, and Palestine is recognized by more United 
Nations member countries than Kosovo and Taiwan combined.
What is the position of the Debian project on the status of Palestine?

Does the Debian project support sanctions against Russia?
Does the Debian project support the BDS movement?

Does the Debian project strongly condemn the Saudi intervention in Yemen?
Are people who work for companies (co-)owned by the government of
Saudi Arabia welcome in Debian?

How should the Debian project treat people who participated in the 
invasion of the sovereign nation Iraq by the United States?

There would be plenty of potential GRs for such issues of the day.


Different Debian contributors do have different personal opinions on 
political topics like the ones above.

Our Diversity Statement states that the Debian Project welcomes and 
encourages participation by everyone.

Debian as a project expressing political opinions destroys diversity, 
technical collaboration in an international project works best when the 
project stays as far as possible away from taking sides in political 
topics of any kind.


cu
Adrian

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Julian Andres Klode (2022-03-31 12:31:18)
> Under 4.1.5 of the Constitution, the developers by way of GR are the 
> body who has the power to issue nontechnical statements.
> 
> This is a proposal for Debian to issue a statement on an
> issue of the day as given as an example, the recent invasion
> of Ukraine.
> 
>  Text of GR 
> 
> The Debian project issues the following statement:
> 
> The Debian project strongly condemns the invasion of Ukraine by
> Russia. The Debian projects affirms that Ukrain is a souvereign
> nation which includes the Donbas regions of Luhansk, as well as
> Crimea, which has already been illegaly annexed by Russia.

No we don't - we care about our users, and our users include those who 
do evil.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 16454 March 1977, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

While that war is idiotic and entirely stupid - what is the gain for 
Debian issuing such a statement? What is the goal here?


Oh, and why now, not for all of those other wars and the misery coming 
out of them, all over the world, in the last years?


--
bye, Joerg

Re: General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 16454 March 1977, Julian Andres Klode wrote:


The Debian project strongly condemns the invasion of Ukraine by
Russia. The Debian projects affirms that Ukrain is a souvereign
nation which includes the Donbas regions of Luhansk, as well as
Crimea, which has already been illegaly annexed by Russia.


While that war is idiotic and entirely stupid - what is the gain for 
Debian issuing such a statement? What is the goal here?


And does that mean we should from now on do one on every larger thing 
going on?


How does that fit with what Debian actually is?

--
bye, Joerg

General resolution: Condemn Russian invasion of the Ukraine

[Julian Andres Klode]

Under 4.1.5 of the Constitution, the developers by way of GR are the
body who has the power to issue nontechnical statements.

This is a proposal for Debian to issue a statement on an
issue of the day as given as an example, the recent invasion
of Ukraine.

 Text of GR 

The Debian project issues the following statement:

The Debian project strongly condemns the invasion of Ukraine by
Russia. The Debian projects affirms that Ukrain is a souvereign
nation which includes the Donbas regions of Luhansk, as well as
Crimea, which has already been illegaly annexed by Russia.

-- 
debian developer - deb.li/jak | jak-linux.org - free software dev
ubuntu core developer  i speak de, en


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