Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[gregor herrmann]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 11:28:33 -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

> The reason for asking the question in the first place is because the
> statements made by the candidates demand some level of quantification.
> What, precisely, is the problem with asking for a quantitative
> description of a quantifiable problem?

Sorry to interrupt and jump on a meta level, but it's not "the
statements" which demand quantitative descriptions, it is you who
does this.

I'm not saying this is inappropiate or wrong or whatever per se, but
it's not nature-given, god-given or something, it's _your_ opinion
that a quantifiable approach to these questions would be useful and
_your_ decison to ask those questions.

Apparently, even if not explicitly spellt out, others disagree.
Also fine, also legitimate. And …
 
> The reason for asking so persistently is because the question still is
> not being answered.

… probably the reason why you don't get any answers on those
questions.
 

Cheers,
gregor

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Re: Question to candidates: How do you plan to manage finances/accounting?

[Sruthi Chandran]

On 25/03/24 17:04, Jonathan Carter wrote:

Hi Sruthi

On 2024/03/22 19:51, Sruthi Chandran wrote:
I agree on your point of lack of transparency about the finances. But 
from what I understood from highvoltage's  platform last year, the 
problem is more to do with the current delayed, manual and tedious 
accounting process.
The accounting processes have definitely been one of the stumbling 
blocks. We now have a new reimbursement system that's live (and even 
in use by some!) at https://reimbursements.debian.net


Once we have everything going through there, it will be much easier to 
get all kinds of reporting and insights into our spending (where, 
right now, other than me polling the TOs and posting a summary, 
everything else has been close to impossible).


It's still under development, but it's shaping up nicely, so I think 
in the future, the financial administration will be far less of a 
burden to the DPL than it has been for years already.



Thanks Jonathan, that is really good to know.

-Jonathan



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Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?

[Sruthi Chandran]

On 27/03/24 04:54, Thomas Goirand wrote:

Hi,

As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account 
for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it?

From Jonathan's mail, I think we do not have too much money unused now.


Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian 
cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, 
but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where 
to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this 
idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian?
As I mentioned in some previous questions, I would be interested to hear 
about ideas to make good use of our money. But I would not be taking 
decisions on spending "big" amount of money without much discussion 
within the Debian community.  Based on some experience we had in our 
Free Software Community of India, I have learned that hosting services 
is a task that require good amount of effort and time for maintenance. 
If we do not have a enough volunteers to handle them, it will result in 
burnout and eventually the services die. Let us take up this topic after 
the elections (if I become the DPL) and evaluate the pros and cons 
before committing.
Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that 
the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they 
would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of 
things.
Generally speaking, spending on hardware in my opinion is a good 
investment. Jonathan in his mail mentioned that some amount of money was 
spent recently for hardwares by DSA. So let us revisit this request 
later, discuss with DSA and decide.




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Question to candidates: do you support using data to guide gender diversity efforts?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

I want to thank Andreas for engaging in the discussion thread spawned by
my other question, even if I disagree with his refusal to actually
answer the question.

I would like to call on Sruthi to please engage.

It is my hope that the following question will be more to the liking of
the candidates and perhaps more productive.

Question to the candidates: do you support using data to help guide
decisions regarding gender diversity in Debian and would you support
improving the way in which the Debian project collects information on
the gender identity of contributors as an aid to those of us desiring to
advance the project's efforts in the area of gender diversity?

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Andreas Tille]

Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 02:10:07PM -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
> Does anyone have a link to the information Margerita shared or information 
> from other sources about the number of women contributing to Debian compared 
> to Free Software in general?  Having specific numbers is a helpful first step 
> in 
> addressing the problem.

I was seeking for the video in preparation of my platform but the
DebConf15 website was non-functional at the time when I was searching
and I was unable to guess from the list of DebConf videos[1] which might
be the right one.  I also asked Margarita in person and she did not
remembered where she had found that numbers at that time.

Kind regards
Andreas.

[1] http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2015/debconf15

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Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Soren Stoutner]

On Friday, March 29, 2024 1:56:46 PM MST Andreas Tille wrote:
> Interestingly, this issue may be more relevant than you assume. At
> DebConf15, Margerita Manterola shed light on pertinent statistics,
> revealing that the representation of women in Free Software lags behind
> that of the broader IT industry. Within Debian specifically, this gender
> gap is even more pronounced compared to the already underrepresented
> status within the Free Software community at large.  While I don't know
> current figures, the prospect of recruiting individuals with a
> predisposition towards inclusivity from the wider IT sector could
> potentially bolster the presence of non-male developers within Debian.

Thank you.  That is the type of specifics I was hoping to get at.  I think that 
Debian working towards having an equal representation of women as compared to 
the Free Software community at large sounds like an attainable goal and one 
towards which we definitely ought to be striving.

Does anyone have a link to the information Margerita shared or information 
from other sources about the number of women contributing to Debian compared 
to Free Software in general?  Having specific numbers is a helpful first step 
in 
addressing the problem.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
so...@debian.org

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Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Soren,

Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 01:00:36PM -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:
> Personally, I am one of only two Debian Developers that I know of living in 
> Arizona.  So, from a local geographic diversity perspective, I would like to 
> see a few more Debian Developers that I could meet up with face-to-face.  In 
> that regard, I am actively trying to recruit people I know to get involved in 
> Debian.  Those efforts can take a while to play out, but I would hope that 
> over 
> the next 2-3 years I can recruit at least 1-2 people and mentor them through 
> the process of becoming Debian Developers.

If the question is that specific I can give some clear answer:  I'd
support forming a local group by taking over travel expenses for some in
person meeting.  I do not think that a DPL platform (which in my case
was considered lengthy by some people) has room for listing those kind
of specific details.
 
> Separate from efforts to recruit Debian Developers in general, I am a self-
> employed small business owner.  Currently, I do not have any employees 
> besides 
> myself.  However, if current plans materialize, I would hope to add a few 
> employees over the next couple of years.  When that happens, part of my 
> employment contract would be that I would like them to dedicate up to 5 hours 
> of paid company time per week to work on any part of Debian that interests 
> them.  The hope would be that they would eventually become Debian Developers 
> and that they would continue their association with Debian even if they left 
> my company’s employ.

Very cool plan.  I love to read it and wish you good luck in it.
 
> This second part relates more to the discussion about recruiting more people 
> to Debian in general (as opposed to any specific diversity goal) as well as 
> the 
> discussion about paid contributions to Debian and trying to get companies to 
> sponsor employee time working on Debian.

Interestingly, this issue may be more relevant than you assume. At
DebConf15, Margerita Manterola shed light on pertinent statistics,
revealing that the representation of women in Free Software lags behind
that of the broader IT industry. Within Debian specifically, this gender
gap is even more pronounced compared to the already underrepresented
status within the Free Software community at large.  While I don't know
current figures, the prospect of recruiting individuals with a
predisposition towards inclusivity from the wider IT sector could
potentially bolster the presence of non-male developers within Debian. 

Moreover as you said yourself your plan sounds pretty effective to work
on the discrimination of people in Arizona.

> Returning to the Roberto’s question, as both candidates have made this a part 
> of their platform, I would hope that they could make a simple statement along 
> the lines of, “These are the specific groups I see underrepresented in Debian 
> (perhaps even with some specific numbers about how underrepresented they are) 
> and these are the specific things I would like to do to improve their 
> representation (perhaps with some specific metrics as to what they think can 
> be 
> accomplished during their term as the DPL).”

I can not give any metrics and I see no reason in spending my time on
exact numbers.  IMHO the paragraph "Diversity" of my platform is out of
question.

> I do understand that maybe their 
> statement looks more like, “These are the specific groups I see 
> underrepresented.  I don’t have any idea of how to fix that,

Please read my platform again which contains phrases like "As a
potential solution, we might ..."

> but I think it is 
> important and as the DPL I would be open to any ideas from members of the 
> project and would be committed to investing time and appropriate resources to 
> implementing any good ideas that surface from those suggestions.”

You surely have read my sentence "I am committed to facilitating
discussions with knowledgeable experts, to actively seek solutions to
these challenges." at the very end was misinterpreted by you as refering
to the previous paragraph but I consider this a general statement also
regarding to diversity problems.

IMHO my platform contains the things you are asking for.
 
> I don’t think the DPL has to have all the answers going it.

Definitely and I do not pretend to have answers for all questions.

> But I would hope 
> that Roberto’s excellent question and his consistency in noting that it 
> hasn’t 
> yet been answered, would be helpful in directing the entire conversation 
> towards concrete things we can implement to improve the situation.

I promptly gave the answer: "I will not make false promises and give any
metrics I intend to reach as DPL."[1]

Kind regards
Andreas.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2024/03/msg00053.html

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Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Soren Stoutner]

On Thursday, March 28, 2024 6:53:19 PM MST Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> So, I repeat my question to the candidates: what are your quantitative
> diversity goals and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those
> goals and metrics?

I would just like to add my support to Roberto for asking this question.  When 
I was reading over the platforms I had the same question he did, which is that 
I was uncertain as to exactly what the candidates meant with regards to 
diversity and what specific things they would do to address it (their 
descriptions were a bit amorphous to me).  Nothing about my interest in 
understanding the candidates position about diversity should in any way be 
interpreted as antagonism towards their diversity goals.  Rather, I would just 
like to understand how they see the problem and what things they would like to 
do to address it, including any metrics as to what they think would be 
attainable progress.

Personally, I am one of only two Debian Developers that I know of living in 
Arizona.  So, from a local geographic diversity perspective, I would like to 
see a few more Debian Developers that I could meet up with face-to-face.  In 
that regard, I am actively trying to recruit people I know to get involved in 
Debian.  Those efforts can take a while to play out, but I would hope that over 
the next 2-3 years I can recruit at least 1-2 people and mentor them through 
the process of becoming Debian Developers.

Separate from efforts to recruit Debian Developers in general, I am a self-
employed small business owner.  Currently, I do not have any employees besides 
myself.  However, if current plans materialize, I would hope to add a few 
employees over the next couple of years.  When that happens, part of my 
employment contract would be that I would like them to dedicate up to 5 hours 
of paid company time per week to work on any part of Debian that interests 
them.  The hope would be that they would eventually become Debian Developers 
and that they would continue their association with Debian even if they left 
my company’s employ.

This second part relates more to the discussion about recruiting more people 
to Debian in general (as opposed to any specific diversity goal) as well as the 
discussion about paid contributions to Debian and trying to get companies to 
sponsor employee time working on Debian.

Returning to the Roberto’s question, as both candidates have made this a part 
of their platform, I would hope that they could make a simple statement along 
the lines of, “These are the specific groups I see underrepresented in Debian 
(perhaps even with some specific numbers about how underrepresented they are) 
and these are the specific things I would like to do to improve their 
representation (perhaps with some specific metrics as to what they think can be 
accomplished during their term as the DPL).”  I do understand that maybe their 
statement looks more like, “These are the specific groups I see 
underrepresented.  I don’t have any idea of how to fix that, but I think it is 
important and as the DPL I would be open to any ideas from members of the 
project and would be committed to investing time and appropriate resources to 
implementing any good ideas that surface from those suggestions.”

I don’t think the DPL has to have all the answers going it.  But I would hope 
that Roberto’s excellent question and his consistency in noting that it hasn’t 
yet been answered, would be helpful in directing the entire conversation 
towards concrete things we can implement to improve the situation.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
so...@debian.org

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Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Louis-Philippe,

Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 02:41:44PM -0400 schrieb Louis-Philippe Véronneau:
> We're getting a little sidetracked here, but that's not the case:

While its sidetracked from the original question I'm happy that this
came up here and I learned two good arguments (from Russ and yours) for
using Salsa.

Kind regards
   Andreas.
 
> "4. What can be hosted on salsa?
> 
> The answer is simple: As long as it is opensource and/or can be included in
> Debian, it is fine to use salsa. If in doubt, ask. " [1]
> 
> [1]: https://wiki.debian.org/Salsa/FAQ#What_can_be_hosted_on_salsa
> 
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> 

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Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Louis-Philippe Véronneau]

On 2024-03-29 4 h 49 a.m., Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

I am told that salsa is
only for debian and upstream projects are not supposed to be there


We're getting a little sidetracked here, but that's not the case:

"4. What can be hosted on salsa?

The answer is simple: As long as it is opensource and/or can be included 
in Debian, it is fine to use salsa. If in doubt, ask. " [1]


[1]: https://wiki.debian.org/Salsa/FAQ#What_can_be_hosted_on_salsa

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Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Sven Mueller]

I apologize for misunderstanding your reason.Am 29.03.2024 16:28 schrieb "Roberto C. Sánchez" :Hi Sven,



On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 03:57:57PM +0100, Sven Mueller wrote:

>    Hi Roberto.

>    Most of the reason you are asking here so persistently is that Andreas

>    chose to say "over representation of white males" instead of "under

>    representation of some other group" (be it females, POC, ...).



This is not it at all. You misunderstand me.



If Andreas had chosen to say "${group} is under represented" then I

would have asked exactly the same question in exactly the same way.



In fact, Sruthi's platform states, "... more gender diverse people will

feel comfortable joining our community". This is the exact part of her

platform that I quoted in my initial mail, in part because it fairly

strongly implies under representation of gender diverse people.



The reason for asking the question in the first place is because the

statements made by the candidates demand some level of quantification.

What, precisely, is the problem with asking for a quantitative

description of a quantifiable problem?This is false. One doesn't need a specific target. And in fact, while both platforms call out in line way or the other that there is a misrepresentation, neither needs to have a quantifiable goal.In fact, both mostly aim to make Debian a welcoming place for everyone, no matter of which gender or ethnicity they are. And Andreas in particular had made this clear in his replies to you.His goal quite obviously is not to reach a specific distribution but to reduce any obstacles keeping those in under represented groups from joining.
The reason for asking so persistently is because the question still is

not being answered.Because there is no numeric answer. Which you insist on getting.Kind regards,Sven

Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Russ Allbery]

Roberto C. Sánchez  writes:

> Without a clear statement of the goal, desired, or preferred diversity
> mix it is not possible to have a discussion about whether any particular
> proposed policy or program is likely to be beneficial or detrimental.

This statement is obviously false.  One can have directional goals without
having any strong opinions about what would be a good end state.  Debian
is currently overwhelmingly male, and we reasons to believe the membership
is aging due to failing to attract younger contributors.  One can believe
this poses a sustainability risk by discouraging half the population (from
one direction) and those with fresh conceptions of what a distribution can
be and the longest potential future as contributors (from the other
direction) from joining the project, without having any particular target
percentages in mind and without supporting any interventions for which
target percentages would be relevant.

One can of course also *not* believe this poses a risk (by, for example,
believing those demographics don't discourage anyone), and thus disagree
with a candidate that makes that part of their platform.  But that
disagreement is not about specific target numbers.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)  

Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?

[Thomas Goirand]

On 3/27/24 08:51, Andreas Tille wrote:

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud,
for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never
went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so
on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd
be useful for Debian?


While I personally have no use case for this I'm perfectly open for
spending money on this and love to discuss this either on debian-project
or debian-private (if private discussion seems to be appropriate).
However, I see an important requirement to consider this money well
spent: We need a team who cares for the maintenance of this cloud.  I do
not think that we can simply add to the workload of DSA.  And I want it
to be a real team and not a 1-person team.


Quickly, because I do not want to dive too much in the topic.

Adding workload to DSA isn't the plan. I also have other persons that 
raised their hands as volunteers. Let's discuss this after the vote ! :)


Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?

[Thomas Goirand]

On 3/27/24 11:25, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Hi,

Thomas Goirand  wrote on 27/03/2024 at 00:24:30+0100:


Hi,

As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account
for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it?

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian
cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian,
but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where
to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this
idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian?


Please, let's take some time to think about the implications of spending
a shitload of money to buy hardware that we wouldn't know where to host,
and that would require a load of maintenance and time.


FYI, if I didn't go forward with the project, that we've been discussing 
with Jonathan over at least 3 years, is because I have no idea where to 
host it. I have clearly stated that having this hosted at *my* company 
(ie: Infomaniak) is *not* what I want to do to avoid any type of 
conflict of interest. I am staying firm with the idea that I shouldn't 
do that. Though if anyone has a clue where we should do it, we can open 
such a discussion (yeah, after the vote: my question was if Andrea was 
happy with this type of project, not how and where we should to it). 
Since I have failed to find where to host, maybe I should open the topic 
with a wider audience, in the hope to have some suggestions.


So, let's not get further on this topic and let's reopen it soon.


If any discussion should arise on these matters, I'd rather them to
occur not as a platform for a DPL candidate but after a reasonable
discussion with the concerned parties, eg, DSA.


No. The DSA people have already stated multiple times that they do not 
want to be integrated in such a project. Let's do this without them if 
this is still the case. If you asked me, I'd say I would regret not to 
do it with the DSA, but it's entirely their call, and it's also probably 
good to try not to be overloaded with complicated clusters like OpenStack.



Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that
the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they
would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of
things?


Same, with slightly less concern regarding hardware volume and
maintenance.


Yeah, DSA and other teams (ports maintainers?) should be involved. From 
a DD perspective, it's just very annoying to have to wait days, and 
sometimes even weeks, to have a package built on all arch. IMO, we 
should address this, in some way or another.


Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

Hi Sven,

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 03:57:57PM +0100, Sven Mueller wrote:
>Hi Roberto.
>Most of the reason you are asking here so persistently is that Andreas
>chose to say "over representation of white males" instead of "under
>representation of some other group" (be it females, POC, ...).

This is not it at all. You misunderstand me.

If Andreas had chosen to say "${group} is under represented" then I
would have asked exactly the same question in exactly the same way.

In fact, Sruthi's platform states, "... more gender diverse people will
feel comfortable joining our community". This is the exact part of her
platform that I quoted in my initial mail, in part because it fairly
strongly implies under representation of gender diverse people.

The reason for asking the question in the first place is because the
statements made by the candidates demand some level of quantification.
What, precisely, is the problem with asking for a quantitative
description of a quantifiable problem?

The reason for asking so persistently is because the question still is
not being answered.

I question the (at this point seemingly intentional) lack of
transparency.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Sven Mueller]

Hi Roberto.Most of the reason you are asking here so persistently is that Andreas chose to say "over representation of white males" instead of "under representation of some other group" (be it females, POC, ...).I'd like to point out three things about this:1) it is clear from current numbers that we would reach equal representation by whatever metric within a few years.2) stating it as over representation of the biggest group is shorter than saying under representation of other groups.3) if you see any possible wording as putting any blame on one or more groups, the wording Andreas chose is putting blame on the majority instead of putting it in those who are under represented.I don't know if (3) was his reason for the wording. But kudos of it was.And yes, trans people are probably over represented as well, compared to the overall population. But that's true almost anywhere in IT. (And honestly, while I'm not in that group, I see it as a good thing.)Kind regards,SvenAm 29.03.2024 14:24 schrieb "Roberto C. Sánchez" :Hi Andreas,

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 06:57:33AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Hi Robert,
> 
> Am Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:30:51AM -0400 schrieb Roberto C. Sánchez:
> > ...
> > In any event, rather than infer what you might believe, I thought it
> > more respectful and helpful to ask you give some insight into how you
> > shaped your view so that those who consider voting for you might
> > understand how you would like to reshape the Debian project.
> 
> Since you are repeatedly asking for measures I might like to add that
> I'm very keen on giving *everybody* a fair chance to contribute.  

I am not opposed to answering your question concerning Salsa and its
role in providing opportunities to contribute to Debian, but as they
say, "we're not here to talk about me, we're here to talk about you."

First, let's be very clear about something, I have repeatedly asked for
metrics concerning your position on diversity based on the fact that in
your platform you cite "a notable over representation of male
contributors originating from countries typically considered
industrialized" as something that needs to be addressed. I have
rephrased my question and offered several different possible ways of
framing a response that would be satisfactory.

Yet, for some reason you seem unwilling to discuss this particular topic
and you now feel the need to change the subject. I do not understand the
purpose of making something a part of your platform and then refusing to
discuss it. If I were to let you divert the course of the conversation
now, then I would be falling short in my duty as a project member with a
responsibility to inform himself concerning those who seek to lead the
project. So, I refuse to allow the change of course in this
conversation. I believe very strongly in leadership accountability and
that accountability begins with transparency on the part of leaders and
those who would seek positions of leadership.

I have only asked my question repeatedly because it is not being
answered. Let me ask you, please, to be transparent.

So, I will repeat my question: what are your quantitative diversity
goals and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and
metrics?

Now, since I asked first, what about if you answer my question, and then
I'll see about answering yours?

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Russ Allbery]

Salvo Tomaselli  writes:

> I am also the original author of packages, and since I am told that
> salsa is only for debian and upstream projects are not supposed to be
> there, for me it is easier to keep packaging and development on a single
> repository. Which of course can't be salsa.

The approach I take for this is that I maintain both the upstream and the
Debian packaging in a separate repository, but each time I upload the
package to Debian, I push both to Salsa as well.  (Since my packaging
branch is based on the upstream branch, pushing both ensures anyone else
who needs to pick up the packaging has all of the history and doesn't take
more resources.)  It's only one more step at the end of an upload and
fairly easy to remember, and that means that I can take MRs for the
packaging from Salsa.  One of the nice advantages of Git is that it's
almost as easy to push the code multiple places as it is to push it one
place.

The hard part, I admit, is watching both Salsa and my regular issue
tracker for issues and merge requests, and that's a little annoying, but
it feels worth it to make it easier for people to submit MRs for my
packages in a standard environment.

Getting my notifications set up properly in Salsa so that I don't miss
things that go there is still a bit of a work in progress.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)  

Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Andreas Tille]

Hi Salvo,

Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 09:49:24AM +0100 schrieb Salvo Tomaselli:
> I am also the original author of packages, and since I am told that salsa is 
> only for debian and upstream projects are not supposed to be there, for me it 
> is easier to keep packaging and development on a single repository. Which of 
> course can't be salsa.
> 
> It used to be sourceforge, galileo from my university (salsa didn't even 
> exist 
> then), google code, github and lately I'm slowly moving everything to 
> codeberg.

I admit this is some valid reason.  Looking at

udd=> SELECT DISTINCT source, maintainer, uploaders, vcs_browser FROM sources 
WHERE release = 'sid' and (maintainer ilike '%Tomaselli%' or uploaders ilike  
'%Tomaselli%')  order by source;
   source|   maintainer   | 
uploaders |vcs_browser 
-++---+
 album   | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/album
 album-data  | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/album-data
 explosive-c4| Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | https://codeberg.org/ltworf/explosive-c4
 fortunes-it | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | 
 kasts   | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/kasts
 localslackirc   | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | https://github.com/ltworf/localslackirc
 parolottero | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli  | 
  | https://github.com/ltworf/parolottero
 python-netsnmpagent | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | 
 python-xtermcolor   | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli  | 
  | 
 relational  | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli  | 
  | 
 trabucco| Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli  | 
  | 
 typedload   | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | https://github.com/ltworf/typedload
 vasttrafik-cli  | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli| 
  | https://codeberg.org/ltworf/vasttrafik-cli
 weborf  | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli  | 
  | 
 xinetd  | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli  | 
  | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/xinetd
(15 rows)

I seee you maintain 4 packages on Salsa (great!), 5 packages for the
said reasons somewhere else and 6 packages do not contain any vcs_url.
Do you have a plan to lower the entry barrier for the latter 6?

Kind regards
Andreas.

-- 
https://fam-tille.de

Re: Question to candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

Hi Andreas,

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 06:57:33AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Hi Robert,
> 
> Am Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:30:51AM -0400 schrieb Roberto C. Sánchez:
> > ...
> > In any event, rather than infer what you might believe, I thought it
> > more respectful and helpful to ask you give some insight into how you
> > shaped your view so that those who consider voting for you might
> > understand how you would like to reshape the Debian project.
> 
> Since you are repeatedly asking for measures I might like to add that
> I'm very keen on giving *everybody* a fair chance to contribute.  

I am not opposed to answering your question concerning Salsa and its
role in providing opportunities to contribute to Debian, but as they
say, "we're not here to talk about me, we're here to talk about you."

First, let's be very clear about something, I have repeatedly asked for
metrics concerning your position on diversity based on the fact that in
your platform you cite "a notable over representation of male
contributors originating from countries typically considered
industrialized" as something that needs to be addressed. I have
rephrased my question and offered several different possible ways of
framing a response that would be satisfactory.

Yet, for some reason you seem unwilling to discuss this particular topic
and you now feel the need to change the subject. I do not understand the
purpose of making something a part of your platform and then refusing to
discuss it. If I were to let you divert the course of the conversation
now, then I would be falling short in my duty as a project member with a
responsibility to inform himself concerning those who seek to lead the
project. So, I refuse to allow the change of course in this
conversation. I believe very strongly in leadership accountability and
that accountability begins with transparency on the part of leaders and
those who would seek positions of leadership.

I have only asked my question repeatedly because it is not being
answered. Let me ask you, please, to be transparent.

So, I will repeat my question: what are your quantitative diversity
goals and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and
metrics?

Now, since I asked first, what about if you answer my question, and then
I'll see about answering yours?

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez