Re: Call for vote - Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Amaya]

Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> The vote isn't open yet. Wait for a ballot on dda/dv, from the
> secretary. ;)

Heh, I was wondering :) Thx for the quick reply. 
/me gets another coffee now :)

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Re: Call for vote - Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Amaya]

Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> Dear Debian Developers,
> 
> since the minimum discussion period is now over and since no amendments
> have been proposed, I'm hereby calling for a vote.

The Reply-To isn't set. So what email address should my vote be sent to?

Thanks, and excuse the silly question.

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Re: [Call for seconds] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Amaya]

Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> TEXT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE
> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we
> welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.
> 
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
> and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, 
> and welcome them into our community.
> 
> TEXT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE

Seconded

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Re: Rationale for GRs

[Amaya]

Matthew Vernon wrote:
> I've been thinking for a while now that it would be good if general
> resolutions had a Rationale with them. At the moment, it can be
> difficult to establish the key arguments for and against a particular
> proposal, unless you have the time to wade through an often-lengthy
> thread on debian-vote, which not all DDs read.

Full ack.

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2011: Call for nominations

[Amaya]

Joachim Breitner wrote:
> A mudslinging party is not something to aim for. But if it turns out
> that there are differing views on important project-wide issues within
> Debian, and there are candidates for each side of some discussion,
> then having an intense debate over these issue within the rituals of
> the campaigning, summarized by platforms and rebuttals, for those not
> following d-vote, and ended by a project-wide election seems to be
> better than some endless discussions between few people on d-devel or
> d-project.

You are missing the point. Nobody is against a heated debate about our
goals and issues.

> But this year, of course, it would already be nice if we would not
> make zack talk to himself during campaigning :-)

Personally I am thrilled to see, at last and for once, the whole project
agree on something. This must mean zack is a truly exceptional person.


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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2011: Call for nominations

[Amaya]

Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> I can't be the only one who believes we should have had a female DPL
> years ago. So here's to you, Amaya, Margarita, Erinn, Hanna, and
> Christine: send in that candidacy!

Thanks for having me in mind, but I want zack to win again :9 and the
mudslinging party at the nomination proccess puts me off, sorry.
:(

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Re: What exactly is this GR supposed to do?

[Amaya]

Margarita Manterola wrote:
> In other words, the GR is not actually needed, it's just a show of
> support.  And I wholeheartedly support it.

Same here.

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Re: First call for votes: GR: Project membership procedures

[Amaya]

Neil McGovern wrote:
> - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> 5efca670-0e7b-480e-9899-ecce3446e087
> [ 1 ] Choice 1: Ask the DAMs to postpone the changes until vote or consensus.
> [   ] Choice 2: Invite the DAM to further discuss until vote or consensus, 
> leading to a new proposal.
> [   ] Choice 3: Ask the DAMs to implement the changes.
> [ 2 ] Choice 4: Further discussion
> - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-



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Re: Call for seconds: Suspension of the changes of the Project's membership procedures.

[Amaya]

Sorry, I can't reply to the original mail itself, I hope this suffices.


Frans Pop wrote:
> 
> >  - Following the announcement of the 22nd of October on the 
> > debian-devel-announce
> >mailing list (Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) about "Developer
> >Status"; 
> > 
> >  - Given the importance of defining how the Project accepts new members;
> > 
> >  - Because of the strong opposition to the method used to prepare, discuss 
> > and
> >decide the announced changes, and without judging their validity;
> > 
> >  - In accordance with the paragraphs 4.1(3) and 4.2(2.2) of the 
> > Constitution;
> > 
> > The Debian Project, by way of a general resolution of its developers,
> > decides:
> > 
> >   The changes announced the 22nd of October on the debian-devel-announce
> >   mailing list (Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) are
> >   suspended [§4.1(3)].  This suspension is effective immediately 
> > [§4.2(2.2)].
> > 
> > In addition, the developers make the following statement:
> > 
> >   The delegates of the Project leader are asked to not take decisions that 
> > are
> >   not consensual about the membership procedures of the Project, and to let
> >   these procedures change by way of a general resolution if no consensus
> >   can be reached. 
> 
> 
> Seconded.

I hereby second all text quoted by Frans.

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Re: Constitutional amendment: reduce the length of DPL election process

[Amaya]

I fully second the quoted text

Anthony Towns wrote:
> =
>   5.2. Appointment
> 
> 1. The Project Leader is elected by the Developers.
> 2. The election begins [-nine-] {+six+} weeks before the leadership
>post becomes vacant, or (if it is too late already) immediately.
> 3. For the [-following three weeks-] {+first week+} any Developer
>may nominate themselves as a candidate Project [-Leader.-]
>{+Leader, and summarise their plans for their term.+}
> 4. For three weeks after that no more candidates may be nominated;
>candidates should use this time for campaigning [-(to make their
>identities-] and [-positions known).-] {+discussion.+} If there
>are no candidates at the end of the nomination period then the
>nomination period is extended for [-three further weeks,-] {+an
>additional week,+} repeatedly if necessary.
> 5. The next [-three-] {+two+} weeks are the polling period during
>which Developers may cast their votes. Votes in leadership
>elections are kept secret, even after the election is finished.
> 6. The options on the ballot will be those candidates who have
>nominated themselves and have not yet withdrawn, plus None Of The
>Above. If None Of The Above wins the election then the election
>procedure is repeated, many times if necessary.
> 7. The decision will be made using the method specified in section
>A.6 of the Standard Resolution Procedure. The quorum is the same
>as for a General Resolution (4.2) and the default option is "None
>Of The Above".
> 8. The Project Leader serves for one year from their election.
> =


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Re: Another proposal

[Amaya]

Josselin Mouette wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> == Reaffirm support for Anthony Towns as the Project Leader ==
> 
> The Debian project reaffirms support to Anthony Towns as the Debian 
> Project Leader. However, it doesn't endorse nor support any projects Mr 
> Towns may lead or participate in outside Debian.
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFFHuyLrSla4ddfhTMRAp6VAKCUA5e9gXbZDaqbRCSsR8WmCIzkdQCfa2Ws
> Gmm4ogtmOfbUBWHo7tCMVPY=
> =Bddb
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-

Seconded


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Re: [AMENDMENT] Now is not the time to decide on firmware issue

[Amaya]

I second the quoted proposal.

Frans Pop wrote:
>  START OF AMENDMENT ==
> Considering that:
>(1) The current discussion about what to do with sourceless firmware
>is muddled by other discussions and time pressure because of the
>release of Etch.
>(2) The subject matter is extremely complex and most developers probably
>do not have a clear understanding of what (sub)categories of files
>are involved, what legal and practical issues are associated with
>each of them, and what implications a decision on them will have for
>e.g. the usability of the Debian installation system, nor what long
>term implications a decision may have for the project as a whole.
> 
> The Debian Project:
>(a) Affirms that the project strives for and encourages 100 percent
>free software, including the availability of source for all types
>of files.
>(b) Resolves that the project needs more time before a decision can be
>made on how sourceless firmware or other types of files (such as,
>but not limited to, logos, images and video) are to be dealt with.
>(c) Requests the DPL to delegate developers to prepare position papers on
>the legal and practical issues surrounding these types of files in
>view of both of the project's chief priorities: "free software" and
>"our users".
>These papers are to be presented to the project for discussion two
>weeks before Debconf 7 and should include:
>* a classification of the different types of files involved;
>* a summary of legal issues with regard to the different types of
>  files;
>* alternative technical solutions for dealing with different types
>  of files, e.g. in the archive and in the installation system;
>* a statement about whether or not changes are needed/wanted in the
>  project's foundation documents in order to realize the proposed
>  solutions and possibly a proposal for these changes.
>(d) Requests the DPL to facilitate the work of these teams by providing
>access to legal counsel and other resources.
> = END OF AMENDMENT ===


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Re: Proposal: Recall the Project Leader

[Amaya]

Anthony Towns wrote:
> AIUI, if the resolution passes, the secretary will need to setup an
> immediate election, which will take nine weeks. During those nine
> weeks, the technical committee chair (Bdale Garbee) and secretary
> (Manoj Srivastava) will jointly exercise the DPL's powers where
> needed.

Ah, ok. I get it now. 
So sre these all GRs popping up just an attempt, or secret plan, to DoS
poor Manoj?

Excuse me while I start my daily wall2headbanging routine...

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Re: Question for Bill Allombert: the "menu" mess

[Amaya]

Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> ,
^meetings
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Re: De-nomination

[Amaya]

Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> In some ways, I am a loser.

No. Never.

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Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Amaya]

Hi Martin!

 

martin f krafft wrote:
> Why is it called debian-women? 

Because the effort, the project, is aimed at increasing the involvement
of women in Debian. So debian-women as a name made perfect sense :)

> Aren't there also men, some shy, some merely put off by the roughness
> of this project, or many other reasons, who would welcome a warmer
> environment?

No, you are wrong, that's debian-devel :)
When I first became a developer, I found debian-devel frightening,
hostile and very intimidating, I must admit this was not so because of
gender issues. And I am not a person that is usually described as shy,
or put off by roughness (hmm, maybe roughness does put me off in the
context of a collaborative effort, but I am not specially affected by
it). 

> I fully support debian-women as there is obviously demand for it.

Thanks for the support, even if lukewarm. When I first started thinking
about women in Debian I had no idea there was such demmand at all, it
was more of a personal issue "ok, so there's the linuxchix, what's wrong
with Debian?" 
Debian offered some numbers that I was not able to easily obtain from
other projects, such as a total amount of developers, and an estimate of
females in there. (Worrying figures, BTW). Meeting Susan in Debconf 2 at
Toronto was key, had she been more visible in Debian, at least to me, I
would have probably never given the gender issue that much thought, or
maybe I would :) Visibility is key. That's another reason why the
project is not called Deian Love (as the project called Gnome Love) or
Debian Janitors, or even Debian Mentors (sounds familiar?).
Visible women in the project make other women feel better about using
and helping Debian. Other women may need a more wellcoming environment,
and that's perfectly fine with me, and very desirable, on the other
hand. My needs were different, but if Debian Women is also providing a
less frightening entry way into Debian, I couldn't feel any prouder
:) As there's is absolutely no seggregation in the debian-women
environment, men can benefit, and I'm sure *do* benefit, from this
wellcoming climate too. 

> However, I often wonder why sets of problems are solved under a
> "superficial" label, when they really exist way further down the
> crust?

I don't think I understand your claims here.

> Or: is the problem really sexism? 

No, IMHO, that's just part of the problem.

> Or is it just that the environment is not particularly friendly to
> women, who have different preferences for social interaction than men?

That looks like a strong point too.

> If so, then why not solve the problem further down (through
> sensibilisation and competence to not answer every flamebait or take
> things personally in such public formums), 

Excuse me, are we talking about the same public forums? :)
I have little hope for that to happen.
On the other hand, I have the feeling I will be originating a huge
trolling thread, just as the last time I posted to debian-vote regarding
this same subject one year ago :) At this point, this thread probably
belongs somewhere else... 

> rather than segregating the sexes explicitly?

Again:

> also sprach Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [2005.03.06.0242 +0100]:
> > But debian-women contributors include both men and women.

This is actually what you were answering to. There's no sex segregation.
But there's a strong emphasis in *visivility*.

> And most of the above applies -- to varying degrees -- to other
> classifications of the Debian supporters, be it language, ice cream
> favourites, or cdbs-vs-debhelper preference.

I'd love to see groups like debian-chocolate-lovers, debian-nudists
(gnudists?), debian-corporate, or debian-world-domination emerge. 
The way I see it, there's more to Debian than just a technical side. And
this applies to Free Software efforts in general. There's a community
behind Debian (what I usually call The Big Disfunctional Family or the
Cult, in my jokes) that makes us different and unique. Taking care of
the social aspects of Debian is important to the health of the project

  (specially now that we know Sarge will never be released and have
  become just a software repository for others to pull exceptionally
  well packaged software from. No pun intended here, really)  

Just as key as releasing, qa-ing, bug fixing, trolling and
ftpmasters-bashing. So while technical workgroups are naturally
wellcome, such as debian-custom, or debian-bsd (did I say wellcome?) ;),
I find that the debian-women project has a different nature and 
so does debian-user-spanish, debian-curiosa or debian-uk.  

At this point I can't remember the topic anymore and I have no idea what
I really wanted to say in the first place... :)

Oh, yes. So all these groups of Debian supporters, be it language, ice
cream favourites, or vi-vs-emacs preference are good for the project. 
This makes me remeber Andreas' talk in Oslo: Why tetrinet is good for
Debian: 

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates

[Amaya]

Manoj, here I came ;-)

I really have no time to get this flamewar alive ;-) but, I promise I'll
summarize and see if we get constructive ideas out of it. 

Sincerely, I only wanted candidate's input, but this is Debian :-) 

* I don't think debian is specially hostile on a gender basis.
  I agree with Branden that Debian is more liberal than the real world
  (take sexual behaviour, it's a good example, as he stated).
* I don't think women need pink desktops, special lists or things like
  that to get encouraged/involved.
* I wasn't only talking about DD. I think we need more users, and
   members of the comunity. Contributors in a way or another. 
* I don't think we need to lower our NM quality standards to become a DD
  for female applications. I don't believe in that kind of positive
  discrimination. I don't even believe it will ever be necessary.
  We all want the best developers we can get :-)
* What I think is that we need a bigger female userbase (and I'm glad
  tbm brought up the isue of other minorities in Debian), that will lead
  to a bigger Female DD. I would also like to see more mulattos, but
  read below. Let's keep lust out of it, please, gents .-) 

Brian May wrote:
> * The majority of Debian developers do the right thing, the problem is
>   with the minority that don't.

I mostly agree. 

> Seems sensible reading, and could be beneficial even if only read by
> people who already try to do the right thing.

I don't specially like that paper, anyway.

What I want to say to females reading all this is "don't take attacks as
personal, using/developing Debian is a big joy, and I wouldn't want to
get more women into it if it weren't". 

I feel terrible that while trying to get more females interested about
Debian I may have managed to scare off some of them with the flame I
originated. I was just asking for candidate's input.

My questions, at a very personal level are, in a way, a quest to
understand my own identity and choices. Quoting from a mail I sent to
tbm:

  "Because (nobody mentioned that in the DPL thingy, and it is something
  I will never forgive :-), as we are going to have thousands of female
  users in Spain soon) we want more women in Debian. Not for lust, but
  for input, hard work, commitment and a stop to flames.  Girls are very
  good at that. We are more collaborative, less competitive, very into
  social networks (and Debian is one). I think it suits the Debian way
  of working together fine.  
  Fuck, I'm giving you all the answers to the question I just asked."

So why if women are supposedly well equipped for the cult^Wbazaar, there
are so few of us? I am seeking constructive thoughts.

BTW, I think this doesn't belong in d-vote anymore. Please let's move
this to d-project or wherever. 

-- 
   All the pictures have all been washed in black. Tattooed everything. 
 .''`.  All the love gone bad turned my world to black. Tattooed all I see. 
: :' : All that I am. All I'll be. -- Perl Jam - Ten - 5 - Black --
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
  `-   www.amayita.com  www.malapecora.com  www.chicasduras.com

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates

[Amaya]

Manoj, here I came ;-)

I really have no time to get this flamewar alive ;-) but, I promise I'll
summarize and see if we get constructive ideas out of it. 

Sincerely, I only wanted candidate's input, but this is Debian :-) 

* I don't think debian is specially hostile on a gender basis.
  I agree with Branden that Debian is more liberal than the real world
  (take sexual behaviour, it's a good example, as he stated).
* I don't think women need pink desktops, special lists or things like
  that to get encouraged/involved.
* I wasn't only talking about DD. I think we need more users, and
   members of the comunity. Contributors in a way or another. 
* I don't think we need to lower our NM quality standards to become a DD
  for female applications. I don't believe in that kind of positive
  discrimination. I don't even believe it will ever be necessary.
  We all want the best developers we can get :-)
* What I think is that we need a bigger female userbase (and I'm glad
  tbm brought up the isue of other minorities in Debian), that will lead
  to a bigger Female DD. I would also like to see more mulattos, but
  read below. Let's keep lust out of it, please, gents .-) 

Brian May wrote:
> * The majority of Debian developers do the right thing, the problem is
>   with the minority that don't.

I mostly agree. 

> Seems sensible reading, and could be beneficial even if only read by
> people who already try to do the right thing.

I don't specially like that paper, anyway.

What I want to say to females reading all this is "don't take attacks as
personal, using/developing Debian is a big joy, and I wouldn't want to
get more women into it if it weren't". 

I feel terrible that while trying to get more females interested about
Debian I may have managed to scare off some of them with the flame I
originated. I was just asking for candidate's input.

My questions, at a very personal level are, in a way, a quest to
understand my own identity and choices. Quoting from a mail I sent to
tbm:

  "Because (nobody mentioned that in the DPL thingy, and it is something
  I will never forgive :-), as we are going to have thousands of female
  users in Spain soon) we want more women in Debian. Not for lust, but
  for input, hard work, commitment and a stop to flames.  Girls are very
  good at that. We are more collaborative, less competitive, very into
  social networks (and Debian is one). I think it suits the Debian way
  of working together fine.  
  Fuck, I'm giving you all the answers to the question I just asked."

So why if women are supposedly well equipped for the cult^Wbazaar, there
are so few of us? I am seeking constructive thoughts.

BTW, I think this doesn't belong in d-vote anymore. Please let's move
this to d-project or wherever. 

-- 
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 .''`.  All the love gone bad turned my world to black. Tattooed all I see. 
: :' : All that I am. All I'll be. -- Perl Jam - Ten - 5 - Black --
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
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Just a single Question for the Candidates

[Amaya]

As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a "Universal" OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think we all agree we want to see more
women involved in or using Debian. 

I would be very interested in knowing what's is each candidate's plan or
ideas on this subject, how to get more women involved, and what (in
their opinion) would be the benefits.

I hope I am not firing a big flame war here. This is not what I intend.
I just want to hear (read) what kind of tama Gergely Nagy has in mind :-)

Thanks for the input.

-- 
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 .''`.  All the love gone bad turned my world to black. Tattooed all I see. 
: :' : All that I am. All I'll be. -- Perl Jam - Ten - 5 - Black --
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
  `-   www.amayita.com  www.malapecora.com  www.chicasduras.com
 Listening to Pearl Jam - Ten - 3 - Alive

Just a single Question for the Candidates

[Amaya]

As a female hacker/geek/DD I find myself more and more concerned about
the gender ratio in the Debian Developer/User comunity. How can we say
make a "Universal" OS when it's do scarcely related to half the
population of the world... I think we all agree we want to see more
women involved in or using Debian. 

I would be very interested in knowing what's is each candidate's plan or
ideas on this subject, how to get more women involved, and what (in
their opinion) would be the benefits.

I hope I am not firing a big flame war here. This is not what I intend.
I just want to hear (read) what kind of tama Gergely Nagy has in mind :-)

Thanks for the input.

-- 
   All the pictures have all been washed in black. Tattooed everything. 
 .''`.  All the love gone bad turned my world to black. Tattooed all I see. 
: :' : All that I am. All I'll be. -- Perl Jam - Ten - 5 - Black --
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
  `-   www.amayita.com  www.malapecora.com  www.chicasduras.com
 Listening to Pearl Jam - Ten - 3 - Alive


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Re: Rappel pour les abonnements aux listes sur udius.com

[Amaya]

Michelle Konzack dijo:
> I have done this around 4 weeks in Hospital with around 300 Sex-Sites,
> Penis-Enlagers and VIAGRA-Dealers;-) 

And now I feel confused. Do I want you get better and leave the
Hospital? 

Seriously, get well soon! 

-- 
 .''`.A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing,
: :' :   tender, sweet, and stupid-- Adolf Hitler
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
  `-   www.amayita.com  www.malapecora.com  www.chicasduras.com

Re: Rappel pour les abonnements aux listes sur udius.com

[Amaya]

Michelle Konzack dijo:
> I have done this around 4 weeks in Hospital with around 300 Sex-Sites,
> Penis-Enlagers and VIAGRA-Dealers;-) 

And now I feel confused. Do I want you get better and leave the
Hospital? 

Seriously, get well soon! 

-- 
 .''`.A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing,
: :' :   tender, sweet, and stupid-- Adolf Hitler
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
  `-   www.amayita.com  www.malapecora.com  www.chicasduras.com


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