Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 05:12:55PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > *No* attempt has been made to sign that open letter on behalf of the > project. https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00061.html >8 I am sure there is a precedent of a position statement being announced without having a formal vote about it, but I cannot find it at the moment. >8--- By DD, yes. Unfortunaly, this wasn't started in the -private@, so the net will remember.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 04:50:15PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > The first option is one option, the others are different and less > strong. Having strong options in a GR doesn't turn the whole GR in a > blackmail I would disagree. Especially, given that the first attempt to "sign on behalf of the Debian" - was without a GR at all. > And it's the flaw in your train of thought : to believe that I'm > defending anyone specific or a crusade. > > I actually never say anything about "RMS is transphobic". That was part of his charges in https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ The second sentence. Fine, if you disagree with this, that wasn't clear for me. What was: you did reject entire opinion, referenced above, based on some random part of it. That's a very biased approach. (Especially, given that the mentioned person may be an expert in field of feelings of trans people. But not a famous conspiracy theorist.) That's why I have doubts, that supporters of the rms-open-letter in the Debian do really care about feelings of people they pretend to defend from dr horrible (also known as RMS).
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 03:38:03PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > You are systematically telling "i don't care" to what we say That's lie, I've not ignored your arguments so far. > deciding that this is a blackmail and smearing campaign. I'd explained this in details. In case of doubts: it may be a good campaign (e.g. I may be wrong and RMS is horrible) - but it's a blackmail (i.e. the first option) as it's now. > I stand my point, this "letter" is pure complotist BS. Sure. As I quoted before, it's not "yours" trans) You even don't care about opinions of people you pretend to defend in your crusade... > Debian produces the same free OS. Well, I'm still trying to hear users voice. For me, it seems they may disagree with you.
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> You're making a good cause to make the lists read-only for non-members I'm trying to argue my position, instead of long reasonings about feelings of my opponents and so on. Is that wrong for the Debian now? > Maybe some wording somewhere is strong It doesn't matter. The message is clear: do what we want or go out. > Yet you miss the point that he is shitty towards women Not. It's you, will miss that point next time, if woman makes a similar support letter. Why? Because it's how you analyze counter-arguments. (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00412.html - a good example.) > I joined Debian because it is inclusive The original goal of the Debian was not being inclusive, but a free OS. That's all debian users still expect from the project.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 12:11:18PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Nod, that's exactly what it was. Maybe polite requests aren't > effective enough for some people. Maybe it was not a polite request at all. Just another blackmail, like the vote is, isn't?
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 10:40:35AM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > Le jeudi 01 avril 2021 à 03:52:23+0300, Sergey B Kirpichev a écrit : > > > Please stop now. > > > > Or?... > > Actually we could ask you to be banned from Debian lists I expected that. "Free" society as it is. Argements - do matter... > but here I assume it was merely a request. No, I'm sure.
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 06:24:52PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you still are on a debian > mailing list while you clearly stated you wanted to sever your ties with > Debian. And what's wrong? Anyone can participate in the discussion, isn't? One of "choices" - is a real blackmail for all FOSS communities: ban rms or we will not interact with you. That affects people far outside Debian, yes. > As it seems to still hurt you Oh, don't care about my "feelings". Do care, please, about own arguments. E.g. obviously you have found "conspiracy theories" in the https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html Yet, you miss the point, that "RMS is NOT transphobic". That's an opinion of someone you are attempting to defend from rms, isn't? Or do you know better, of course?
Re: Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> Please stop now. Or?...
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> I stopped reading after "Thought Criminal" ... > Honestly, do what you want, but Trumpist "I decide who is a jew in the airforce" (c) This trans is a wrong trans, isn't?
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> I do not understand what you mean by "why not?". Literally: "why not?" > The Debian Members are the most technical part of the Debian Community That's not true, given we have teams, that don't do a technical work at all. > I think there is a misunderstanding Yep. I meant, same it true for your opinions. > The Debian Project will maybe take a political position if the GR > outcomes allows it to do so So, next time in GR DD's may approve USA aggression in Venezuela? > And, being a Free Software-made OS doesn't forbid it to be more than that. Unfortunately, it's so. Obviously, you want to turn the Debian into something "more than that". But have you fixed all bugs in the packages you do support?)
Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 07:10:17PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > Are you aware that many of those "SJW" have been Debian Members for a very > long time Why not? > the most technical part of that community? That's your imagination, given you already ignored a decent part of the community. > Your opinions are yours, and are not shared by everyone here Not true as well. > this GR will be a good reality check. The outcome doesn't matter, as I said. The Debian project do political decisions on behalf of it's contributors - that's a reality. This is now for something different than for a free OS...
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> Debian Maintainers and Contributors are indeed not Debian Members and > it's written to many places. For instance... https://www.debian.org/intro/people --->8- People: who we are, what we do Developers and contributors Debian is produced by almost a thousand active developers spread around the world who volunteer in their spare time. Few of the developers have actually met in person. Communication is done primarily through e-mail (mailing lists at lists.debian.org) and IRC (#debian channel at irc.debian.org). The complete list of official Debian members can be found on nm.debian.org, where membership is managed. A broader list of Debian contributors can be found on contributors.debian.org. ->8--- Can you see here a clear distinction: we do political statements for DD only? > I wonder if you are feeling angry SJW destroyed yet another technical community. Why I should be happy?
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> whose potential work Can we compare a potential work with a potential work? Real work with real work, meters with meters, seconds with seconds and so on... Not inches with bananas, please. > If I were to follow the argumentation that Stallman's contributions are so > immensely important No. He didn't anything wrong against philosophy of FOSS and so on. Did FSF issue a wrong license? That would be a problem. Personal opinion of rms, unrelated to fsf.org - is not. If some people can't distinguish such cases - such people are threat for FOSS, not rms. > The position of the FSF, as announced, is that contributors outside their > inner circle are unimportant. You did same, isn't? E.g. whose, who support debian packages - are not part of the Debian (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00374.html).
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
> Is it a problem when someone goes and works and pays taxes in a country > where they're not a citizen? Oh, package maintainers are not Debian's citizens... Great idea, just put this on the top of debian.org to attract new contributors. This is not transfobic, right?
Re: Re: Cancel "culture" is a threat to Debian
(CC'd to debian-vote due to https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00224.html) On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 02:53:16PM +0200, Stephan Lachnit wrote: > Obviously the FSF can do whatever they want. They don't *have* to represent > me. But that doesn't mean that I still felt that they did. Maybe you should pay less attention to your "feelings" and more - to the actual work for OSS? Do you have objections e.g. against licenses, issued by FSF? Such criticizm could be logical. Private opinions of the FSF leader (or a board member) - not related with FOSS at all - are private opinions. > Especially when that person was removed just two years ago, for > whatever reason There was no objective reasons and the person wasn't just "removed". RMS stepped down on his own decision (which was an obvious error). > The reason I like free software is that nothing is behind closed doors. Open debian-private@. Or "this is different"? > > There was no apology from RMS "critics", which e.g. improperly quote RMS > > in the case of Minsky "defence" (the blame was itself is a lie). > > Honestly I don't know enough about RMS to argue about that, and I also don't > want to discuss it here. For me, the circumstances are reason enough to call > the FSF out. Maybe you should learn more about facts, before doing any decision for yourself? > no need for conspiracies about cancel culture. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's that it is. (And looking on the sponsors pages it seems to be clear "qui prodest".) > If you don't think Debian is democratic, I urge you to read the Constitution > again [1]. Not every contributor can vote, yes, but I argue that this is > normal. > I can't vacation in a different country and demand the right to vote. People don't just do a vacation in the Debian. They do work. Actual work: not just flaming in the maillists, but package software, fix bugs and so on. > I'll have to back down on the diversity statement, haven't checked various > pages like the CoC [2], I don't see a direct statement on this. I guess > it's fine if someone is against it as long as there are no personal attacks. There is no option. If the technical project is a part of some political statement on my behalf - I should be part of this or leave. > > > Obviously, everyone is free to disagree and can sign the support letter. > > > There is no problem > > > > See above. That's not a problem for you, yes. > > I don't get it. It's a democratic vote. If the vote is in favor of this, then > so > be it. If you disagree with the majority, then disagree. Nobody cares. The simple (not just one) problem is: I did (now, in past) some work for the Debian - but I can't vote. Yet, the project do political decisions on my behalf. Another problem is that people come in Debian to make a free operating system, not for politics. Next time you may vote to support bomb the North Korea. > If you think it's that big of a problem for you, you can leave the project. Sure, I already did (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00141.html). Lets see how this works...
Re: Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian
Matthew Vernon : > My feeling at this stage is that the TC are best placed to make a > decision on the technical merits of the various possible init > replacements and how we might deploy them in Debian. Given that there > is also a political element to this discussion, we could consider a GR > in the light of the TC decision But what about more simple GR, just like the pool from: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00281.html ? > we could consider a GR > in the light of the TC decision; pre-empting that decision would seem > likely to result in a vast pile of duplicated flame/effort. The TC decision about the default init is done. But not about other important things, like requirements/suggestions for maintainers to support alternative inits and so on. I feel that if the GR results on the quoted above pool would be different from TC - that may affect other TC decisions. Ian, would you like to sponsor GR in this form? PS: BTW, Guillem what's a status of this GR-proposal? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140215140612.ga13...@darkstar.order.hcn-strela.ru
