Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Mon, May 07, 2012 at 08:05:33PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > > I agree that this should go out. Just, we have "our community" twice in > > the text. Any linguistic expertise with us we could possibly > > welcome? > LOL > > Anyway, it sounds strange enough to me to suggest > > substituting the first occurrence with just "us". And, since we also > > want new contributors to also interact constructively between > > themselves, and since to me it is somewhat redundant in the first > > place, I would even feel inclined to remove the "with our community". > I'm not sure about removing the "with our community", but as this is a > style problem (and not a content one) I'd postpone the discussion on it > (asking for proofread on -l10n-english) after the vote. I can't agree with this. The wording of position statements matters - what we ratify should be posted word for word on the website. But I also think the crowdsourced review on debian-project has already been more than sufficient and don't think there's any point in further "proofreading" on -l10n-english. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
* Gunnar Wolf , 2012-05-03, 18:09: Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, once voted? A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can be applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed on -project. I'm not sure we want "editorial changes". Well, if you think the translations are prone to change the meaning of the text, I think we have two options: Either to collect all possible translations and submit them all together to a GR, This would be a great way to reject the proposal: hopefully nobody sane would vote for a position statement that he cannot understand. Therefore, I second this idea! ;> or include in all translations that the authoritative copy is the English one. How are our foundational documents (DFSG, SC) handled in this regard? I don't think we had to bless every translation... I hope nobody thinks that translations (especially the Polish ones!) of the foundations documents are in any way binding. Anyhow, I didn't realize that Francesca was talking about translations. Well, did she? -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120507182018.ga7...@jwilk.net
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
Hi Steffen, On Mon, May 07, 2012 at 10:18:28AM +0200, "Steffen Möller" wrote: > I agree that this should go out. Just, we have "our community" twice in > the text. Any linguistic expertise with us we could possibly > welcome? LOL > Anyway, it sounds strange enough to me to suggest > substituting the first occurrence with just "us". And, since we also > want new contributors to also interact constructively between > themselves, and since to me it is somewhat redundant in the first > place, I would even feel inclined to remove the "with our community". I'm not sure about removing the "with our community", but as this is a style problem (and not a content one) I'd postpone the discussion on it (asking for proofread on -l10n-english) after the vote. Cheers, Francesca -- "Nostra patria è il mondo intero e nostra legge è la libertà ed un pensiero ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE > > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. > > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they > interact constructively with our community. > > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we > value and encourage contributions from those with expertise > in other areas, and welcome them into our community. > > DRAFT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE Seconded. I know you haven't called for seconds yet, but I don't see any reason to wait when this has already reached broad consensus on debian-project. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 10:14:06AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > Hi, > > On 03/05/12 at 00:32 +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: > > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they > > interact constructively with our community. > > I'm not a big fan of this formulation. Maybe it should be a bit less > personal, without the use of we/you ? I personally love this kind of phrasing. This is supposed to be a statement that makes people feel welcome. Contrast "We welcome you" with "The Debian project welcomes contributors". The latter phrasing (or other non-personal ways of putting it) seems, at least to me -- admittedly not a native English speaker -- quite cold. Kind regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall /) Rime on my window (\ // ~ // Diamond-white roses of fire // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120504223815.gc10...@suiko.acc.umu.se
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
Hi, On Fri, 04 May 2012, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > On 03/05/12 at 00:32 +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: > > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they > > interact constructively with our community. > > I'm not a big fan of this formulation. Maybe it should be a bit less > personal, without the use of we/you ? I know that in French we tend to avoid such formulations, but in English it's actually better that way. I believe we should keep it like it is. (I know because I had to change the "style" when translationg the debian admin handbook) Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/liberation/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120504095536.gb31...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
Hi, On 03/05/12 at 00:32 +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they > interact constructively with our community. I'm not a big fan of this formulation. Maybe it should be a bit less personal, without the use of we/you ? Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120504081406.ga1...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
Kurt Roeckx dijo [Thu, May 03, 2012 at 11:54:32PM +0200]: > On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > > Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, > > once voted? > > A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to > > avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can be > > applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more > > substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed on > > -project. > > I'm not sure we want "editorial changes". Well, if you think the translations are prone to change the meaning of the text, I think we have two options: Either to collect all possible translations and submit them all together to a GR, or include in all translations that the authoritative copy is the English one. How are our foundational documents (DFSG, SC) handled in this regard? I don't think we had to bless every translation... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120503230911.ge9...@gwolf.org
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
Francesca Ciceri dijo [Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200]: > Dear Debian Developers, > > A recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that > the Debian Project, the community behind the *Universal* Operating > System, doesn't have a diversity statement. > The *technical* part of the project is already commited to diversity: we > don't accept (in our main repository) licenses which discriminate for > persons, groups or fields of endeavor (DFSG, points 5. and 6.). > IMO is time for a similar statement also for the *community* part of the > project. > > Below (between "" lines) you'll find the draft of > the text to be voted. I'm not looking for seconds yet, but rather issues > in the proposed text. I'll call for seconds soon. > > At the end of the mail, a couple of FAQ about the diversity statement, > raised during the debate on -project, which hopefully will be useful > for peole who didn't follow the (one-month long) thread. > > Thank you for your attention, > Francesca > > DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE > > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. > > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they > interact constructively with our community. > > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we > value and encourage contributions from those with expertise > in other areas, and welcome them into our community. > > DRAFT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE Thanks, Francesca, for the energy you have put into this important topic. I'm cutting your mail after the part that will be voted, as I think it's correct, but in any case I subscribe to the mail as a whole. I second your proposal for the GR. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote: > Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, > once voted? > A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to > avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can be > applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more > substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed on > -project. I'm not sure we want "editorial changes". Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120503215432.ga14...@roeckx.be
[Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project
Dear Debian Developers, A recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that the Debian Project, the community behind the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have a diversity statement. The *technical* part of the project is already commited to diversity: we don't accept (in our main repository) licenses which discriminate for persons, groups or fields of endeavor (DFSG, points 5. and 6.). IMO is time for a similar statement also for the *community* part of the project. Below (between "" lines) you'll find the draft of the text to be voted. I'm not looking for seconds yet, but rather issues in the proposed text. I'll call for seconds soon. At the end of the mail, a couple of FAQ about the diversity statement, raised during the debate on -project, which hopefully will be useful for peole who didn't follow the (one-month long) thread. Thank you for your attention, Francesca DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community. DRAFT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE == FAQ == Q: What is a diversity statement? A: A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really important: that everyone (regardless of whatever thing people may usually be discriminated for) is welcome to join our project. Q: Why we need a GR for it? A: During the last two months, various people helped me in drafting one for the Debian Project [2]. We reach a wide consensus on the text, but as for Constitution §4.1.5 for "[position] statement" a GR is necessary (see [3]). So, here we are. :) Q: Which will be the consequences of adopting it? A: A diversity statement is *not* a Code of Conduct. We are not adding new rules. As Russ Allbery said [4]: "It's a statement of ideals. Statements of ideals don't generally change things in the way that, oh, code or even enforced policies change things. The influence is at best subtle. But I think statements of ideals are useful things to have because they help people think about ideals, and remember that the ideals are important, and that we can all do something to live up to those ideals. And that that can be as significant of an action as fixing a technical bug." Q: What about hateful ideologies? Do we welcome them as well? A: Here the relevant bit is: "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community". In addition, let me borrow again some words from Russ [5]: "The point of a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any kind. It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior we're actively seeking out and want to align". Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, once voted? A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can be applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed on -project. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2012/03/msg6.html (and following messages) [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html (and following messages) [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00088.html [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00060.html [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html -- "Nostra patria è il mondo intero e nostra legge è la libertà ed un pensiero ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori signature.asc Description: Digital signature
