Re: [all candidates] lack of women in Debian
Mònica Ramírez Arceda mon...@debian.org writes: I would like to know your opinion about this graph (thanks Francesca!): http://blog.zouish.org/posts/dw/ Note that I'm not asking for a way to recruit women (there are already efforts on that). I would like to know if you think that this lack of women affects (or not) the Debian project and how. I'm both happy and sad about the graph. Happy, because it shows improvement, sad, because it doesn't show enough of it. Though, I'm hoping that if we had better tracking, if the graph would include translators, doc writers, event organisers and all kinds of other contributions, the curve would be much nicer. I'm also afraid that this is just a hope at this point. Nevertheless, the lack of women does affect Debian, and not in a good way, but, as you wrote, there are already efforts to recruit more women (with the recent announcement of participating in GNOME Outreach Program for Women[1] is something I was very happy to hear). [1]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2013/03/msg00013.html Diversity - be that gender diversity or any other kind - is in general something to strive for, something that benefits us greatly in many, many ways. So having so few women within the strictly viewed project is worrying. I also would like to know if you have any proposal related to this topic that you would like to do if elected. Improving our recruitment strategy and our outreach efforts are core parts of my platforms, and these naturally include efforts that specifically target women. However, I do not (yet) have any specific plan (related to the topic of women in Debian) in mind, that would be different from efforts already in motion. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87zjxp6jwj@galadriel.madhouse-project.org
Re: [all candidates] lack of women in Debian
Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org writes: On 19/03/13 at 21:43 +0100, Gerfried Fuchs wrote: * Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org [2013-03-19 07:44:32 CET]: But it's also about how we see our project. I would like Debian to be a very welcoming project, and I hate the fact that it's harder for some groups to get involved. Given that the context of this statement is lack of women in Debian, why do you believe that it's harder for women to get involved? Let's split the process of getting involved into several steps: Step 0: Alice knows nothing about Debian Step 1: Alice is exposed to Debian Step 2: Alice would like to contribute to Debian Step 3: Alice starts contributing to Debian Going from Step 0 to Step 1 is less likely for women, because there are fewer women in situations to be exposed to Debian (studying CS, IT jobs, etc.). And there's not much we can do (as Debian) for that. I would like to strongly disagree here. Getting involved in, and contributing to Debian does not require one to be anywhere near CS or IT. It certainly helps, because we, as a project, are far better prepared to receive and encourage such contributions, but that's not all there is to it. There are many ways to reach out to non-technical people too (including but not limited to friends, partners, family and various non-technical events), and we as a project can and should encourage this kind of outreach too, and not limit ourselves to technical contributors only. (Also, not being in a position to be naturally exposed to Debian does not mean that one wouldn't become a technical contributor later on.) Going from Step 1 to Step 2 is also less likely for women, because the prospect of getting involved in a project with so few women might be a bit frightening. Agreed, but there's a lot we can do here to make it less so. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wqsy8euy@galadriel.madhouse-project.org
Re: [all candidates] lack of women in Debian
On 19/03/13 at 21:43 +0100, Gerfried Fuchs wrote: * Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org [2013-03-19 07:44:32 CET]: But it's also about how we see our project. I would like Debian to be a very welcoming project, and I hate the fact that it's harder for some groups to get involved. Given that the context of this statement is lack of women in Debian, why do you believe that it's harder for women to get involved? Let's split the process of getting involved into several steps: Step 0: Alice knows nothing about Debian Step 1: Alice is exposed to Debian Step 2: Alice would like to contribute to Debian Step 3: Alice starts contributing to Debian Going from Step 0 to Step 1 is less likely for women, because there are fewer women in situations to be exposed to Debian (studying CS, IT jobs, etc.). And there's not much we can do (as Debian) for that. Going from Step 1 to Step 2 is also less likely for women, because the prospect of getting involved in a project with so few women might be a bit frightening. I don't see why going from Step 2 to Step 3 would be less likely for women. One could also point out that women tend to get more help (for good or bad reasons) when they ask for help. So, maybe I should have said less likely rather than harder. However, for some other groups, it might be harder. For example, it's harder for non-native english speakers to be involved in Debian, because contributing to Debian requires some english knowledge. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130320055226.ga19...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: [all candidates] lack of women in Debian
Hi, On 18/03/13 at 11:23 +0100, Mònica Ramírez Arceda wrote: Hi, I would like to know your opinion about this graph (thanks Francesca!): http://blog.zouish.org/posts/dw/ Note that I'm not asking for a way to recruit women (there are already efforts on that). I would like to know if you think that this lack of women affects (or not) the Debian project and how. This graph is a very interesting one. As some of my past actions in Debian have shown, I like data and statistics, especially when they allow one to measure success, failure or progress, or say something about the project that we previously didn't know. Regarding the data itself, it's great to see that the situation is generally improving, even if, of course, we would like it to be faster. It's true that it's a bit disappointing compared to the data from other projects (e.g. GNOME). Your question is very specific (impact of lack of women in Debian?). Yes, it's very likely that the deficit of women involved in Debian has a negative impact. As Moray pointed out, research shows more women generally results in better results in organizations. But it's also about how we see our project. I would like Debian to be a very welcoming project, and I hate the fact that it's harder for some groups to get involved. So, yes, we should ensure that we work on the blockers of our project regarding integration of women, and also balance them by easing integration of women through specific actions, such as Debian Women. Note that this is not limited to women. We have other populations that are very much under-represented in Debian if you compare their number to the world population, or even to people in IT jobs. I also would like to know if you have any proposal related to this topic that you would like to do if elected. One thing I would like to do, if elected, is to push for participation in the https://live.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130319064432.ga28...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: [all candidates] lack of women in Debian
Lucas Nussbaum dijo [Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 07:44:32AM +0100]: I would like to know your opinion about this graph (thanks Francesca!): http://blog.zouish.org/posts/dw/ (...) This graph is a very interesting one. As some of my past actions in Debian have shown, I like data and statistics, especially when they allow one to measure success, failure or progress, or say something about the project that we previously didn't know. (...) Note that this is not limited to women. We have other populations that are very much under-represented in Debian if you compare their number to the world population, or even to people in IT jobs. Right, and IMO we cannot limit our views to what we observe in Debian. I don't know how this figures go in the rest of the world, but I was amazed (given the maturity of the profession, I'd have expected a better balance) that in the faculty I teach (Facultad de Ingeniería, UNAM, probably the biggest school on the different engineerings in Latin America) we still have a 80%/20% gender imbalance. So, according to the graphic (and read optimistically, of course), Debian is faring still quite below that imbalance (~1.5%), but it is by a factor of ~10, not a factor of ~100 (as to the general population). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130319190807.gg7...@gwolf.org
Re: [all candidates] lack of women in Debian
* Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org [2013-03-19 07:44:32 CET]: But it's also about how we see our project. I would like Debian to be a very welcoming project, and I hate the fact that it's harder for some groups to get involved. Given that the context of this statement is lack of women in Debian, why do you believe that it's harder for women to get involved? Thanks, Rhonda -- Fühlst du dich mutlos, fass endlich Mut, los | Fühlst du dich hilflos, geh raus und hilf, los| Wir sind Helden Fühlst du dich machtlos, geh raus und mach, los | 23.55: Alles auf Anfang Fühlst du dich haltlos, such Halt und lass los| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130319204331.ga12...@anguilla.debian.or.at
[all candidates] lack of women in Debian
Hi, I would like to know your opinion about this graph (thanks Francesca!): http://blog.zouish.org/posts/dw/ Note that I'm not asking for a way to recruit women (there are already efforts on that). I would like to know if you think that this lack of women affects (or not) the Debian project and how. I also would like to know if you have any proposal related to this topic that you would like to do if elected. Thanks! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [all candidates] lack of women in Debian
On 2013-03-18 13:23, Mònica Ramírez Arceda wrote: I would like to know your opinion about this graph (thanks Francesca!): http://blog.zouish.org/posts/dw/ It's disappointing for me that the numbers compared to men are still so low, and things are even worse if you look only at active project members. Note that I'm not asking for a way to recruit women (there are already efforts on that). I would like to know if you think that this lack of women affects (or not) the Debian project and how. I think it is negative for Debian yes, but personally as a feminist I also see exclusion of women, whether or not it's intentional, as bad in itself. To be fair to Debian, I think that much of the imbalance is from cultural attitudes about women and computers, and that any attempt to solve it properly would need to start in childhood education. As a mostly volunteer project, another part of the imbalance is from a cultural background that typically gives men time for hobbies but keeps women busy with housework and childcare. But I do think that part of the imbalance is also from how we behave and structure ourselves as a project. For example, if we depend on existing personal contact to recruit new contributors, without actively reaching out beyond our immediate circles, it is unsurprising that we tend to recruit people with similar backgrounds and gender to our existing ones, and similar ideas. For how it affects Debian, research appears to show that gender diversity makes organisations more successful. For example, research has looked at the composition of corporate boards, where women's representation is also very low, and found that companies whose boards include women do better, e.g. see this review that includes summaries of some more academic work https://infocus.credit-suisse.com/data/_product_documents/_shop/360145/csri_gender_diversity_and_corporate_performance.pdf (which includes discussion of whether this is causation or merely correlation, etc.) The list of possible reasons for correlation in Rationalizing the link between performance and gender diversity there could all be translated across to Debian as reasons to want gender diversity -- see my appendix below for a summary. I also would like to know if you have any proposal related to this topic that you would like to do if elected. I would love for more people to be active in Debian Women projects, and for Debian to be a positive example in this regard not only by positive intentions but by showing that a higher degree of representation of women is possible. If I am elected, I would like us try some more active methods to reach out to new contributors. It will be important for us to think about how we should structure this to try to reach groups who are not yet well represented in Debian, including women, and I would welcome your participation to look at how we can do that best. Moray Appendix. Here's a summary of their list of suggested reasons: 1. A signal of a better [organisation] it may signal greater focus on corporate governance and second because it is a sign that the company is already doing well 2. Greater effort across the board the majority group improves its own performance in response to minority involvement 3. A better mix of leadership skills For instance, women were found to be particularly good at defining responsibilities clearly as well as being strong on mentoring and coaching employees 4. Access to a wider pool of talent by 2010, the proportion of female graduates across the world came to a median average of 54% 5. A better reflection of the consumer decision-maker According to a book published by Boston Consulting Group in 2010, 73% of US household spending decisions are controlled by women. 6. Improved corporate governance more gender-diverse boards were more likely to focus on clear communication to employees, to prioritize customer satisfaction, and to consider diversity and corporate social responsibility 7. Risk aversion having at least one female director on the board appears to reduce a company’s likelihood of becoming bankrupt by 20%, and that having two or three female directors lowered the likelihood of bankruptcy even further -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53f4d46a8862422e5b2a1ee48e5f2...@www.morayallan.com
