Re: [to all candidates] about a DPL board
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:54:37AM +0100, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: in the past i heared several ideas about a Debian Project Leader board similar to the SPI board. For people interested in this, I've presented some reflection on it at DebConf12, near the end of my DPL talk there [1]. In particular, the question time of that talk has focused quite a bit on the board idea (and on how board is possibly not the best term for it :-)). [1]: http://penta.debconf.org/dc12_schedule/events/881.en.html Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Debian Project Leader . . . . . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [to all candidates] about a DPL board
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi! Martin Zobel-Helas zo...@debian.org writes: in the past i heared several ideas about a Debian Project Leader board similar to the SPI board. So lets imagine the project would have to vote for several members of this sort of board, with every member being on-board for (lets say) 3y. What do you think about this idea? Would it be worth in long term to establish such a leader board (and therefore a change to our current constitution) for the Debian Project, or do you think the DPL should stay a single person? A few years back - even last year! - I might have said I'd support such a board, it is something that's been lingering at the back of my mind for a long, long time. But no, I would not support such an initiative, for a multitude of reasons: First of all, for a board to function well, we need people with similar vision, who can work together. Electing not one, but 3-5 people is not only much harder for the project, it is also much more risky, as there are no guarantees that compatible people will be elected. Trying to guarantee that with the Constitution or by any other means is just adding insult to injury. Over the past year, Zack started the DPL Helpers initiative, which does show some resemblance to a board, in that it takes load off of the DPL, makes some of the work the DPL does more transparent, thus making transitions easier too, and so on and so forth. It has *all* the benefits of a board, with none of the downsides. All three of the current candidates have contributed to Zack's initiative, which, for me, is proof enough that it works. It is still in its infancy, but it already shows great promise, even though it's only a year old. It does not need a change in constitution, makes it easier for all participants to work together better, as they themselves can figure out if they're compatible, and act accordingly, without any harmful bureaucracy involved. Furthermore, I see other issues with a board: how long should members be elected? One year seems short, unless members are reelected (DPL-DPL transitions aren't trivial as it is, imagine if that would need to involve more than two people!). Three years? That's the longest any DPL ever was in service, do we really want to make that the minimum? Three years of commitment is a long time. Granted, one can always step down, but... that just complicates things. We do not need more complex solutions, especially if the solution is for a problem that does not necessarily exist in the first place. I used to think that a board would have tremendous advantages, such as being able to represent Debian in that role at various events and places much more frequently than a single person possibly could. But do we need a board for that? No. We don't. We need people who can do that, and empower them to do it. The DPL Helpers initiative provides a great forum for that, in my opinion. I just don't see anymore what problems a board would solve, that other solutions can't solve better, therefore, I'd rather encourage those initiatives that already show promise. Perhaps I've seen too many otherwise great projects fail in recent years, due to their leadership board being unable to act and respond to outside events in a timely manner. I've been frustrated with leader boards being terribly slow, and argue over miniscule details. I've seen too many of them being far less agile than our project leaders have been. I believe we have a fairly good system, that can use improvements like the DPL Helpers initiative, but it is a good system nevertheless. I see no need to change what works, and what points forward. There's a lot we can and should change about, but none of that require abandoning the DPL role. Granted, one should be willing to take risks, but amending the constitution and transitioning to a board is a risk too high, with no clear benefits. A risk without clear benefits is a risk we should not take. - -- |8] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRPtcpAAoJEGznDG6LngZEcmkP/2X048uZy2FbDUTW18BtzdAN OBQxZoS8tUj/2+g8ws6U/QUZIebCvy79mNbYwiWD5GHMy4pkRMDEZEOlTiwSOgpk f0J7tyDF7PXA9MuVX+bCPgsZlbDscpL1+Yd+joMzBydGaDVDhhyGpuD50tRBhir1 5QUwiK7WDgx4xxnhTsgLm6Dunfav12LXfkaeVVV5xa89HWhIr2crHa76DPhYbSGg BtematQc3BBpjzNLkY8WWySvDrolUfyDJWL8qh2+Fq0//Ge1MVr1pzIGvcafYOHw dxnPld9y195HY6kN8+L7L0n/tQzoqpNokbBHc2MzA9PC3wIHvG4HVGpiec53r39i pG8tbLu+1PxsQyW6mPAcP6oyYMvC0Sv43RdlkCiGK3VSxCcpkVovpYmKK7FFgUMy Sr71a2Duh44rx74fLbwnDp/F+ZhcA2NWWg9z6hcm0Udh+QNftk0kBpu2U2eKaUao YNcE/TLmEhbqXDnThV3Uxu+NT3OrK/NoOBfa6yVRIFcPnVuezsS9UwzFJW8/ITJS eIYganZO5VQVlane4ygPy4aVLIgF+E3TkKQu84Lu5eROUNTr0zRjtNyRJNUr+5W0 kpGeSmWy4SEtZYUo8PDbioDstiS626N/PCWweiDSr39Pqj9Sd2Sn8qu23Ch/Ibgz Vk0azgXMr2566h183rON =ss5L -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive:
Re: [to all candidates] about a DPL board
...and I managed to sign it with the key I use for signing my repos, instead of the correct one. *sigh* Sorry about that. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8738w1ghku@galadriel.madhouse-project.org
Re: [to all candidates] about a DPL board
On 2013-03-12 02:54, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: What do you think about this idea? Would it be worth in long term to establish such a leader board (and therefore a change to our current constitution) for the Debian Project, or do you think the DPL should stay a single person? Before answering, I will point out that forming a board is *not* part of my platform. While I have mentioned the DPL helpers initiative, and other similar topics, I don't think that a true board of equals is really possible under our current constitution. And as DPL I would want to ask for views, help and delegates from the whole of Debian, not only from people who might be part of a board experiment. Nor is it part of my platform to push the constitutional changes required to get us a board. Having said that, I suspect that some kind of permanent board is almost inevitable sooner or later. While I don't think that keeping the current concentration of power in the DPL and adding a board alongside would work well, I can see some positive aspects in moving from a single leader to a board of equals. Positive ways to use this would include: - A board could include more diversity. This would clearly depend on how elections happened, but it's not hard to be more diverse than one person. In particular, many good leadership candidates are excluded at present simply because they don't have enough time for the DPL role due to other commitments. - A board could increase transparency (and perhaps quality) of decisions. For example, money decisions can currently be made directly by the DPL, acting alone. List threads don't always give clear decisions, but the GR process is too heavy to use for regular spending. A board could quickly discuss and vote when decisions are needed. - A board could perhaps function as the sort of social committee some people have suggested creating in the past. I wouldn't want to push designing the necessary constitutional changes myself, but would want to examine any proposal, and would be likely to vote for such a change if it seemed well-designed. A couple of dangers I can see: - It would be bad in my view if we ended up with a board made up of very similar people. A board may be more likely than a single person to think that they don't need to consult further outside to get ideas. - It would be bad in my view if a board ended up dominated by a group of people who stayed on it a long time by reelection. A DPL will typically run out of time eventually, so we get some change and new perspectives brought in, but board membership might stay similar for much longer. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cf3bab841997856c8e6c58cfd4a58...@www.morayallan.com
Re: [to all candidates] about a DPL board
Hi, On 12/03/13 at 00:54 +0100, Martin Zobel-Helas wrote: Hi, in the past i heared several ideas about a Debian Project Leader board similar to the SPI board. So lets imagine the project would have to vote for several members of this sort of board, with every member being on-board for (lets say) 3y. What do you think about this idea? Would it be worth in long term to establish such a leader board (and therefore a change to our current constitution) for the Debian Project, or do you think the DPL should stay a single person? Powers inside Debian rely on a very subtle balance, and we need to be careful about not breaking that balance. A team to help the DPL is a very attractive idea, and it's great that Stefano started his DPL helpers initiative. It could help share the load with more people, get people to train and understand the job, etc. But do we need an official board, or just an informal team of DPL helpers? I think that for now, an informal team is enough. Many of the actions that people expect from the DPL do not require special powers (and those are generally the most time-consuming). For those which require special powers, there are other solutions: - delegate someone for a specific task and time - limit the role of the helper to expertise/advise/drafting -- the DPL does the final action or takes the final decision Also, I think that we need more time to understand how such a board would work, using the DPL helpers initiative as a prototype. So, if elected: - I will not push for a DPL team/board myself. Of course everybody is free to discuss and push for constitutional changes - I will continue the DPL helpers initiative Additionally, I must admit that I quite dislike the DPL helpers name, and I'd like to find another name. The best name I've come up with so far is Debian Driving Force. Driving, because its role is to drive the project. Of course, not like a bus driver that follows an agenda you don't control and takes you wherever s/he want. More like a taxi driver: people in the taxi/project decide via consensus where they want to go, and how they want to go there, and the driver takes them there following their requests. Force (and not team), because I think that it's important to have an open group of people, and not imply that there are people in and people out. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130312193945.ge8...@xanadu.blop.info
[to all candidates] about a DPL board
Hi, in the past i heared several ideas about a Debian Project Leader board similar to the SPI board. So lets imagine the project would have to vote for several members of this sort of board, with every member being on-board for (lets say) 3y. What do you think about this idea? Would it be worth in long term to establish such a leader board (and therefore a change to our current constitution) for the Debian Project, or do you think the DPL should stay a single person? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Zobel-Helas zo...@debian.orgDebian System Administrator Debian GNU/Linux Developer Debian Listmaster http://about.me/zobel Debian Webmaster GPG Fingerprint: 6B18 5642 8E41 EC89 3D5D BDBB 53B1 AC6D B11B 627B signature.asc Description: Digital signature
