Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 10:55:09PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 08:23:09PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > > === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> > > 
> > > Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> > > 
> > > All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word 
> > > Chair.
> > > 
> > > === END GR TEXT ===
> > 
> > It's been 18 days since the GR was proposed and seconded. I'd like to now 
> > call
> > for votes on this resolution.
> 
> I'll let the vote start on 2016-07-31 00:00 UTC.

Here is the draft ballot:

 Voting period starts  2016-07-31 00:00:00 UTC
 Votes must be received by 2016-08-13 23:59:59 UTC

The following ballot is for voting on updating the standard resolution
procedure.

This vote is being conducted as required by the Debian Constitution.
You may see the constitution at https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution.
For voting questions or problems contact secret...@debian.org.

The details of the general resolution can be found at:
https://www.debian.org/vote/2016/vote_003

The first option will modify the constitution and so requires a 3:1 majority.

Also, note that you can get a fresh ballot any time before the end of
the vote by sending a signed mail to
   bal...@vote.debian.org
with the subject "gr_ctte_chair".

To vote you need to be a Debian Developer.


HOW TO VOTE

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- - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
3919970b-dfd2-4735-bc4e-218b3f2f8de1
[   ] Choice 1: Replace Chairman with Chair
[   ] Choice 2: Further Discussion
- - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 08:23:09PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> > 
> > Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> > 
> > All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> > 
> > === END GR TEXT ===
> 
> It's been 18 days since the GR was proposed and seconded. I'd like to now call
> for votes on this resolution.

I'll let the vote start on 2016-07-31 00:00 UTC.


Kurt

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Margarita Manterola]

Hi,

> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

It's been 18 days since the GR was proposed and seconded. I'd like to now call
for votes on this resolution.

Thanks.

-- 
Marga


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Philip Hands]

Gunnar Wolf  writes:

> Ansgar Burchardt dijo [Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 02:40:44PM +0200]:
>> >> Luckily there's an awesome non-gendered and non-furnitured alternative:
>> >>
>> >> President
>> >
>> > Point is, the TC  is constitutionally only about half-surrogating
>> > MIA DPLs and breaking ties. The non-constitutional part of the duty is much
>> > more about making meetings happen, running the administrativia, etc. In 
>> > short,
>> > it's much more of a 'Secretary' role, rather than a 'President' role.
>> 
>> That sounds like what a president does when there is no dedicated
>> secretary role (which we don't have for the ctte)?
>> 
>> But there are also the choices of moderator, facilitator, and convenor
>> left from [1].  Though "moderator" is also a thing in certain contexts
>> ("neutron moderator") and the Wikipedia article on "facilitator"[2]
>> mentions a neutral position which doesn't quite fit with tie-breaking.
>> 
>>   [1] 
>>   [2] 
>> 
>> All non-Chair choices also avoid confusion with a possible future Chair
>> of the Technical Committee that might be used as part of an inauguration
>> ceremony ;)
>
> This topic is getting contentious. Should we submit it to the
> Technical Committee for them to recommend an optimal way out?

If possible, the subject experts should make such decisions -- assuming
that we're talking about an armchair, how about moving this discussion
to debian-arm?

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Gunnar Wolf]

Ansgar Burchardt dijo [Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 02:40:44PM +0200]:
> >> Luckily there's an awesome non-gendered and non-furnitured alternative:
> >>
> >> President
> >
> > Point is, the TC  is constitutionally only about half-surrogating
> > MIA DPLs and breaking ties. The non-constitutional part of the duty is much
> > more about making meetings happen, running the administrativia, etc. In 
> > short,
> > it's much more of a 'Secretary' role, rather than a 'President' role.
> 
> That sounds like what a president does when there is no dedicated
> secretary role (which we don't have for the ctte)?
> 
> But there are also the choices of moderator, facilitator, and convenor
> left from [1].  Though "moderator" is also a thing in certain contexts
> ("neutron moderator") and the Wikipedia article on "facilitator"[2]
> mentions a neutral position which doesn't quite fit with tie-breaking.
> 
>   [1] 
>   [2] 
> 
> All non-Chair choices also avoid confusion with a possible future Chair
> of the Technical Committee that might be used as part of an inauguration
> ceremony ;)

This topic is getting contentious. Should we submit it to the
Technical Committee for them to recommend an optimal way out?

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Gunnar Wolf]

Nikolaus Rath dijo [Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 04:41:15PM -0700]:
> On Jul 22 2016, martin f krafft  wrote:
> > also sprach Lionel Elie Mamane  [2016-07-22 12:14 +0200]:
> >> Since Debian is an international project, with many (I expect a
> >> majority but am too lazy to check) of non-native English speakers,
> >> maybe taking a more unwieldy, but more clear route, would be better:
> >> Chairperson?
> >
> > Seriously… are we going to debate this now? Let's just vote and be
> > done with it. Please. With a cherry.
> >
> > Btw, we've had DebConf Chairs too and nobody complained.
> 
> Well, that probably just means that they were pretty comfortable, so no
> one had reason to complain.

The position of a Chair is not comfortable at all, and that's probably
the main reason for five of us hastily resigning (and only one in a
properly orchestrated way).

Still, it's better to be a Chair than to be a part of the Standing
Committee. But, come to think of it, I was at least once in both
roles. Yes, our committee is not formally defined as standing, but
lacking chairs, it's implicit.

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Gunnar Wolf]

Lionel Elie Mamane dijo [Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:16:22PM +0200]:
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:14:14PM +0200, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
> 
> > I'd rather you asked me for a signed agreement in triplicate before
> > taking it out of the debian-private debian-developer-only archives to
> > quote/post somewhere else.
> 
> Except I'm not posting to debian-private, but to debian-vote. Oh,
> silly me.

For the casual non-DD observers, this is probably an indicative on the
depth of the usual discussions in debian-private. Hence the repeated
calls for not holding nonprivate conversations in there.

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Gunnar Wolf]

Wouter Verhelst dijo [Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:15:57AM +0200]:
> Hi Marga,
> 
> I second this amendment, although it introduces a minor awkwardness:
> 
> On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> > -  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
> > +  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;
> 
> A "Chairman" is a person. A "Chair" may be an object.
> 
> I don't think anyone will misinterpret your proposed new wording into
> thinking the TC has a physical chair that someone sits on, but the
> s/Chairmain/Chair/ you apply does to me seem to introduce some
> grammatical ambiguity that could make the text of the constitution less
> clear than it might be.

Given the technical advances we see every day, this would allow a
future Technical Committee to appoint an AI agent, which could be
enclosed in an IoT-enabled chair (think of a system in the fashion of
the classic Cray X-MP¹) — Of course, given it runs on a completely
DFSG-free stack.

This change will allow the Technical Committee to do the best once
such free AI reaches the needed maturity level, without needing a new
constitutional amendment.

I, for one, welcome our sitting-enabling overlords.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray_X-MP


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Jakub Wilk]

* Ansgar Burchardt , 2016-07-24, 14:40:
non-Chair choices also avoid confusion with a possible future Chair of 
the Technical Committee that might be used as part of an inauguration 
ceremony


I think Throne would be better for inauguration ceremony.

--
Jakub Wilk

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Ansgar Burchardt]

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes:
> Le vendredi, 22 juillet 2016, 12.28:38 h CEST Jakub Wilk a écrit :
>> Luckily there's an awesome non-gendered and non-furnitured alternative:
>>
>> President
>
> Point is, the TC  is constitutionally only about half-surrogating
> MIA DPLs and breaking ties. The non-constitutional part of the duty is much
> more about making meetings happen, running the administrativia, etc. In short,
> it's much more of a 'Secretary' role, rather than a 'President' role.

That sounds like what a president does when there is no dedicated
secretary role (which we don't have for the ctte)?

But there are also the choices of moderator, facilitator, and convenor
left from [1].  Though "moderator" is also a thing in certain contexts
("neutron moderator") and the Wikipedia article on "facilitator"[2]
mentions a neutral position which doesn't quite fit with tie-breaking.

  [1] 
  [2] 

All non-Chair choices also avoid confusion with a possible future Chair
of the Technical Committee that might be used as part of an inauguration
ceremony ;)

Ansgar

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Nikolaus Rath]

On Jul 22 2016, martin f krafft  wrote:
> also sprach Lionel Elie Mamane  [2016-07-22 12:14 +0200]:
>> Since Debian is an international project, with many (I expect a
>> majority but am too lazy to check) of non-native English speakers,
>> maybe taking a more unwieldy, but more clear route, would be better:
>> Chairperson?
>
> Seriously… are we going to debate this now? Let's just vote and be
> done with it. Please. With a cherry.
>
> Btw, we've had DebConf Chairs too and nobody complained.

Well, that probably just means that they were pretty comfortable, so no
one had reason to complain.


Best,
-Nikolaus

-- 
GPG encrypted emails preferred. Key id: 0xD113FCAC3C4E599F
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 »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Le vendredi, 22 juillet 2016, 12.28:38 h CEST Jakub Wilk a écrit :
> Luckily there's an awesome non-gendered and non-furnitured alternative:
> 
> President

Point is, the TC  is constitutionally only about half-surrogating 
MIA DPLs and breaking ties. The non-constitutional part of the duty is much 
more about making meetings happen, running the administrativia, etc. In short, 
it's much more of a 'Secretary' role, rather than a 'President' role.

But we already have a secretary role in the project.

So we fall back (can we say "sit"?) on furnitured 'Chair'.

-- 
Cheers,
OdyX

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Philip Hands]

Lionel Elie Mamane  writes:

> On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:14:14PM +0200, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
>
>> I'd rather you asked me for a signed agreement in triplicate before
>> taking it out of the debian-private debian-developer-only archives to
>> quote/post somewhere else.
>
> Except I'm not posting to debian-private, but to debian-vote. Oh,
> silly me.

In light of the preceding mail, I can only agree with your final assessment.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:14:14PM +0200, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
> Since Debian is an international project, with many (I expect a
> majority but am too lazy to check) of non-native English speakers,
> maybe taking a more unwieldy, but more clear route, would be better:
> Chairperson?

"Chair" is not ambiguous if you pay attention to the capitalisation, it's a
proper noun. Therefore there's no need to change it to disambiguate. NACK

-- 
Jonathan Dowland
Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:16:22PM +0200, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:
> Except I'm not posting to debian-private, but to debian-vote. Oh,
> silly me.

I wonder if there will be sanctions for this egregious violation of our
privacy and trust ;)

-- 
Jonathan Dowland
Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Lionel Elie Mamane  [2016-07-22 12:14 +0200]:
> Since Debian is an international project, with many (I expect a
> majority but am too lazy to check) of non-native English speakers,
> maybe taking a more unwieldy, but more clear route, would be better:
> Chairperson?

Seriously… are we going to debate this now? Let's just vote and be
done with it. Please. With a cherry.

Btw, we've had DebConf Chairs too and nobody complained.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
above all, we should not wish to divest
our existence of its rich ambiguity.
 --friedrich nietzsche


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Jakub Wilk]

* Lionel Elie Mamane , 2016-07-22, 12:14:
Since Debian is an international project, with many (I expect a 
majority but am too lazy to check) of non-native English speakers, 
maybe taking a more unwieldy, but more clear route, would be better:

Chairperson?


Sounds clumsy. Luckily there's an awesome non-gendered and 
non-furnitured alternative:


President

I'd rather you asked me for a signed agreement in triplicate before 
taking it out of the debian-private debian-developer-only archives to 
quote/post somewhere else.


No worries!

--
Jakub Wilk

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:14:14PM +0200, Lionel Elie Mamane wrote:

> I'd rather you asked me for a signed agreement in triplicate before
> taking it out of the debian-private debian-developer-only archives to
> quote/post somewhere else.

Except I'm not posting to debian-private, but to debian-vote. Oh,
silly me.

-- 
Lionel

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Lionel Elie Mamane]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:15:57AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:

>> -  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
>> +  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;

> A "Chairman" is a person. A "Chair" may be an object.

> I don't think anyone will misinterpret your proposed new wording into
> thinking the TC has a physical chair that someone sits on, but the
> s/Chairmain/Chair/ you apply does to me seem to introduce some
> grammatical ambiguity that could make the text of the constitution less
> clear than it might be.

> Since I'm not a native English speaker,

Since Debian is an international project, with many (I expect a
majority but am too lazy to check) of non-native English speakers,
maybe taking a more unwieldy, but more clear route, would be better:
Chairperson?

Or we could show we are a *deeply* geeky project, that knows that in
Old English, "mann" or "monn" meant had a gender-neutral meaning of
"human", corresponding to Modern English "person" or "someone", and
that this has been corrupted after the Norman conquest. So we could
decide to go back to the "roots" and recognise that "Chairman" is
etymologically not gendered. To make it more clear, we could replace
it by "Chairmann" or "Chairmonn". IMHO the latter would be far too
not-understandable to modern ears, so the former is better; at worse
it will be seen as a spelling mistake.

If one wants to have a language reform, I rather like this "back to
the roots" approach to the reform; obviously we cherry-pick what we
want/like from the roots and don't go completely back :) You know, the
same way that the discerning Frenchmann does not scoff at "je vais
faire mon shopping" because e (or ey or ee or sie or (s)he or they or
...) recognises that this is just a return of Old French "eschoppe"
(now spelled échoppe and somewhat antiquated, but still understandable
 by most Frenchspeakers) via a detour in English, instead of a vile
"anglicisme".

This article contains a clause shamelessly copy/pasted from Wikipedia;
it may make it entirely covered by the Creative Commons
Attribution-ShareAlike License. Or not, because it is such a short
quote. You figure it out, since you want to do something with it.

I'd rather you asked me for a signed agreement in triplicate before
taking it out of the debian-private debian-developer-only archives to
quote/post somewhere else.

-- 
Lionel

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Russ Allbery]

Wouter Verhelst  writes:

> A "Chairman" is a person. A "Chair" may be an object.

> I don't think anyone will misinterpret your proposed new wording into
> thinking the TC has a physical chair that someone sits on, but the
> s/Chairmain/Chair/ you apply does to me seem to introduce some
> grammatical ambiguity that could make the text of the constitution less
> clear than it might be.

> Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll assume for now that it's
> just me and that there's no problem; but if other people do feel the
> same way about this, perhaps now's the right time to do something about
> it?  Once this GR passes, it's going to be hard to fix that...

At least in the US, this is the standard fix to replace chairman with a
gender neutral term, so I would expect most US readers to be familiar with
the intended meaning already.

See, for example:

https://www.purchase.edu/departments/ccs/EditorialStyleGuide/AppendixA-Z/c.aspx

chair (vs. chairman, chairwoman, chairperson) “Chair is widely
regarded as the best gender-neutral choice. Since the mid-17th
century, chair has referred to an office of authority” (Chicago
Manual; exception to AP style). The use of chair as a verb is
acceptable, although lead, head, or preside over is preferred.

and multiple other style guides on-line.  (And if this page is correct,
it's also the Chicago Manual of Style recommendation, which is the
"official" style guide for US English insofar as such a thing exists.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Ian Jackson]

Daniel Kahn Gillmor writes ("Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" 
throughout the Debian Constitution"):
> I'm a native english speaker.  English has far worse ambiguities than
> this, and it is easily recognizable for what it is.  No one will think
> that Debian is proposing that we have special rules for our furniture.
> 
> At any rate, we all know what an organization ruled by furniture is
> called: a bureaucracy :P

Well, you made me laugh :-).

Thanks,
Ian.

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

On Thu 2016-07-21 11:15:57 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> A "Chairman" is a person. A "Chair" may be an object.
>
> I don't think anyone will misinterpret your proposed new wording into
> thinking the TC has a physical chair that someone sits on, but the
> s/Chairmain/Chair/ you apply does to me seem to introduce some
> grammatical ambiguity that could make the text of the constitution less
> clear than it might be.
>
> Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll assume for now that it's
> just me and that there's no problem; but if other people do feel the
> same way about this, perhaps now's the right time to do something about
> it?  Once this GR passes, it's going to be hard to fix that...

I'm a native english speaker.  English has far worse ambiguities than
this, and it is easily recognizable for what it is.  No one will think
that Debian is proposing that we have special rules for our furniture.

At any rate, we all know what an organization ruled by furniture is
called: a bureaucracy :P

  --dkg

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Anibal Monsalve Salazar]

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 7:15 PM, Wouter Verhelst  wrote:
> A "Chairman" is a person. A "Chair" may be an object.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair_%28disambiguation%29

"Chair or Chairman, the highest officer of an organized group"

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Dimitri John Ledkov]

Hello,

On 21 July 2016 at 10:15, Wouter Verhelst  wrote:
> Hi Marga,
>
> I second this amendment, although it introduces a minor awkwardness:
>
> On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
>> -  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
>> +  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;
>
> A "Chairman" is a person. A "Chair" may be an object.
>
> I don't think anyone will misinterpret your proposed new wording into
> thinking the TC has a physical chair that someone sits on, but the
> s/Chairmain/Chair/ you apply does to me seem to introduce some
> grammatical ambiguity that could make the text of the constitution less
> clear than it might be.
>
> Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll assume for now that it's
> just me and that there's no problem; but if other people do feel the
> same way about this, perhaps now's the right time to do something about
> it?  Once this GR passes, it's going to be hard to fix that...
>

Word chair has two meanings in English. One is the object to sit on,
the other is the person in charge of a meeting or of an organisation.
Capitalisation and context make it unambiguous to interpret only as a
role, rather than an object.

-- 
Regards,

Dimitri.

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Wouter Verhelst]

Hi Marga,

I second this amendment, although it introduces a minor awkwardness:

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> -  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
> +  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;

A "Chairman" is a person. A "Chair" may be an object.

I don't think anyone will misinterpret your proposed new wording into
thinking the TC has a physical chair that someone sits on, but the
s/Chairmain/Chair/ you apply does to me seem to introduce some
grammatical ambiguity that could make the text of the constitution less
clear than it might be.

Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll assume for now that it's
just me and that there's no problem; but if other people do feel the
same way about this, perhaps now's the right time to do something about
it?  Once this GR passes, it's going to be hard to fix that...

Regards,

-- 
< ron> I mean, the main *practical* problem with C++, is there's like a dozen
   people in the world who think they really understand all of its rules,
   and pretty much all of them are just lying to themselves too.
 -- #debian-devel, OFTC, 2016-02-12


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Neil McGovern]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 11:14:45AM +, Thaddeus H. Black wrote:
> (However, if this copy, too, does not appear in the web archive, then
> I will ask listmas...@lists.debian.org or file a bug as appropriate.)
> 

Your (new) mail does now appear publically accessible to all who search
for it in the list archives. Your opinion is on record.

> Margarita:
> > The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the
> > Technical Committee.
> 
> Good.  I am glad that one word is still left.  The
> English language does not want "ungendering."
> 
> Your General Resolution will probably pass by a 10:1
> margin, but I mean to vote no.
> 

Personally, I hope that it passes with a 100:1 margin, and encourage all
voters to approve this GR with an overwhelming majority.

Neil


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Sam Hocevar]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016, Thaddeus H. Black wrote:

> > All appearances of the word Chairman shall be
> > replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> I oppose this and all efforts to emasculate the
> Debian Project.

   Did something change since 12 years ago, when you agreed to join a
project that advocated gender-neutral language in its best practices and
had a Debian Women initiative?

Cheers,
-- 
Sam.

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Thaddeus H. Black]

My dissent three days ago against Margarita's General
Resolution does not seem to appear in the web archive,
nor have I seen a reply (which is fine).  An infrequent
poster, an infrequent Mutt user, having manually edited
the header's In-Reply-To line, I probably posted the
dissent wrong.  Let's try again.

If the original reached you three days ago, then please
disregard this copy.  (However, if this copy, too, does
not appear in the web archive, then I will ask
listmas...@lists.debian.org or file a bug as
appropriate.)

---

Margarita:

> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout
> the Debian Constitution
>
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be
> replaced with the word Chair.

I oppose this and all efforts to emasculate the
Debian Project.

> The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the
> Technical Committee.

Good.  I am glad that one word is still left.  The
English language does not want "ungendering."

Your General Resolution will probably pass by a 10:1
margin, but I mean to vote no.



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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 06:53:33PM +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Am Montag, den 11.07.2016, 07:20 +0200 schrieb Bernd Zeimetz:
> > seconded
> 
> if more than half the developers second the proposal, can we skip the
> voting?

You can look for a new secretary in that case.


Kurt

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Jakub Wilk]

* Joachim Breitner , 2016-07-11, 18:53:

seconded


if more than half the developers second the proposal, can we skip the 
voting?


Nope.

Sponsoring a resolution means only that you want the vote to take place; 
it doesn't imply that you want the resolution to pass.


The most famous example of this is the "Recall the project leader" 
GR[0], which was sponsored by the then DPL, Anthony Towns.



[0] https://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_005   

--
Jakub Wilk

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Joachim Breitner]

Hi,

Am Montag, den 11.07.2016, 07:20 +0200 schrieb Bernd Zeimetz:
> seconded

if more than half the developers second the proposal, can we skip the
voting?

Greetings,
Joachim

-- 

Joachim “nomeata” Breitner
Debian Developer
  nome...@debian.org • https://people.debian.org/~nomeata
  XMPP: nome...@joachim-breitner.de • GPG-Key: 0xF0FBF51F
  https://www.joachim-breitner.de/

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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Bernd Zeimetz]

On 07/08/2016 03:27 PM, Margarita Manterola wrote:

> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

seconded


-- 
 Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F



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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Philipp Kern]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
> 
> This change can be applied by a simple sed command (s/Chairman/Chair/g).  I'm
> attaching the diff between the current constitution document and the output of
> said sed command to make it explicit that no other changes are intended.

> --- constitution.wml  2016-02-25 08:03:04.0 +0100
> +++ constitution.new.wml  2016-07-08 15:18:41.857474553 +0200
> @@ -37,7 +37,7 @@
>  
>The Project Leader;
>  
> -  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
> +  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;
>  
>The individual Developer working on a particular task;
>  
> @@ -69,7 +69,7 @@
>  
>
>  A person may hold several posts, except that the Project Leader,
> -Project Secretary and the Chairman of the Technical Committee must
> +Project Secretary and the Chair of the Technical Committee must
>  be distinct, and that the Leader cannot appoint themselves as their
>  own Delegate.
>
> @@ -460,10 +460,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -Appoint the Chairman of the Technical Committee.
> +Appoint the Chair of the Technical Committee.
>  
>  
> -   The Chairman is elected by the Committee from its members. All
> +   The Chair is elected by the Committee from its members. All
> members of the committee are automatically nominated; the
> committee votes starting one week before the post will become
> vacant (or immediately, if it is already too late). The members
> @@ -476,10 +476,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -The Chairman can stand in for the Leader, together with the
> +The Chair can stand in for the Leader, together with the
>  Secretary
>  
> -As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chairman of the Technical
> +As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chair of the Technical
>  Committee and the Project Secretary may together stand in for the
>  Leader if there is no Leader.
>
> @@ -561,10 +561,10 @@
>
>  Details regarding voting
>  
> -The Chairman has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
> +The Chair has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
>  votes whether to override a Developer who also happens to be a
>  member of the Committee, that member may not vote (unless they are
> -the Chairman, in which case they may use only their casting
> +the Chair, in which case they may use only their casting
>  vote).
>
>  
> @@ -627,10 +627,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chairman of the
> +Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chair of the
>  Technical Committee.
>  
> -If there is no Project Leader then the Chairman of the
> +If there is no Project Leader then the Chair of the
>  Technical Committee and the Project Secretary may by joint
>  agreement make decisions if they consider it imperative to do
>  so.
> @@ -658,7 +658,7 @@
>  
>  If there is no Project Secretary or the current Secretary is
>  unavailable and has not delegated authority for a decision then the
> -decision may be made or delegated by the Chairman of the Technical
> +decision may be made or delegated by the Chair of the Technical
>  Committee, as Acting Secretary.
>  
>  The Project Secretary's term of office is 1 year, at which point
> @@ -671,7 +671,7 @@
>  Developers.
>  
>  When acting together to stand in for an absent Project Leader the
> -Chairman of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
> +Chair of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
>  make decisions only when absolutely necessary and only when consistent
>  with the consensus of the Developers.
>  

Seconded.

Kind regards and thanks
Philipp Kern


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Cyril Brulebois]

Margarita Manterola  (2016-07-08):
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost 
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
> 
> This change can be applied by a simple sed command (s/Chairman/Chair/g).  I'm
> attaching the diff between the current constitution document and the output of
> said sed command to make it explicit that no other changes are intended.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Marga

> --- constitution.wml  2016-02-25 08:03:04.0 +0100
> +++ constitution.new.wml  2016-07-08 15:18:41.857474553 +0200
> @@ -37,7 +37,7 @@
>  
>The Project Leader;
>  
> -  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
> +  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;
>  
>The individual Developer working on a particular task;
>  
> @@ -69,7 +69,7 @@
>  
>
>  A person may hold several posts, except that the Project Leader,
> -Project Secretary and the Chairman of the Technical Committee must
> +Project Secretary and the Chair of the Technical Committee must
>  be distinct, and that the Leader cannot appoint themselves as their
>  own Delegate.
>
> @@ -460,10 +460,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -Appoint the Chairman of the Technical Committee.
> +Appoint the Chair of the Technical Committee.
>  
>  
> -   The Chairman is elected by the Committee from its members. All
> +   The Chair is elected by the Committee from its members. All
> members of the committee are automatically nominated; the
> committee votes starting one week before the post will become
> vacant (or immediately, if it is already too late). The members
> @@ -476,10 +476,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -The Chairman can stand in for the Leader, together with the
> +The Chair can stand in for the Leader, together with the
>  Secretary
>  
> -As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chairman of the Technical
> +As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chair of the Technical
>  Committee and the Project Secretary may together stand in for the
>  Leader if there is no Leader.
>
> @@ -561,10 +561,10 @@
>
>  Details regarding voting
>  
> -The Chairman has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
> +The Chair has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
>  votes whether to override a Developer who also happens to be a
>  member of the Committee, that member may not vote (unless they are
> -the Chairman, in which case they may use only their casting
> +the Chair, in which case they may use only their casting
>  vote).
>
>  
> @@ -627,10 +627,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chairman of the
> +Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chair of the
>  Technical Committee.
>  
> -If there is no Project Leader then the Chairman of the
> +If there is no Project Leader then the Chair of the
>  Technical Committee and the Project Secretary may by joint
>  agreement make decisions if they consider it imperative to do
>  so.
> @@ -658,7 +658,7 @@
>  
>  If there is no Project Secretary or the current Secretary is
>  unavailable and has not delegated authority for a decision then the
> -decision may be made or delegated by the Chairman of the Technical
> +decision may be made or delegated by the Chair of the Technical
>  Committee, as Acting Secretary.
>  
>  The Project Secretary's term of office is 1 year, at which point
> @@ -671,7 +671,7 @@
>  Developers.
>  
>  When acting together to stand in for an absent Project Leader the
> -Chairman of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
> +Chair of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
>  make decisions only when absolutely necessary and only when consistent
>  with the consensus of the Developers.

Seconded, thanks.


KiBi.


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Kurt Roeckx  [2016-07-08 16:09 +0200]:
> Would it make sense to either have this as separate option,
> not modifying the Chainman or as seperate GR?

I've been convinced last night that my amendment is not needed, so
let's just leave it.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"the perfect gun is an idealist without any ideal."
  -- mc 900 ft jesus


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Neil McGovern]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

Neil


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Santiago Ruano Rincón]

El 08/07/16 a las 15:27, Margarita Manterola escribió:
...
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

Thanks!

Santiago


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Tobias Frost]

Am Freitag, den 08.07.2016, 15:27 +0200 schrieb Margarita Manterola:
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the
> Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered.
> Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work,
> Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian
> Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word
> Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
> 
> This change can be applied by a simple sed command
> (s/Chairman/Chair/g).  I'm
> attaching the diff between the current constitution document and the
> output of
> said sed command to make it explicit that no other changes are
> intended.
> 
Seconded.


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Ian Jackson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Margarita Manterola writes ("GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" 
throughout the Debian Constitution"):
> 
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is
> almost completely ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the
> Chairman of the Technical Committee.  There is no reason for this
> position to be gendered. Ungendered alternatives for Chairman are
> Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is simpler and
> shorter.

As the person responsible for this bug, sorry, and:

Seconded.

Thanks,
Ian.
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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Gunnar Wolf]

martin f krafft dijo [Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:58:34PM +0200]:
> I would like to propose the following amendment to Marga's GR:
> 
> In addition to the proposed change, the project shall vote to
> empower the DPL together with the Project Secretary to make minor
> editorial changes in our foundation documents without requiring
> the process of a GR.
> 
> To protect our foundations, such a change must be announced and can
> only be put into effect following a four week period during which no
> opposing GR has been launched.

I don't really like the idea. While holding a GR is a burden, the
occurence of such an event should be rare enough that we can spare a
couple of weeks while the regular process is carried out.

Remember we have had very deep changes¹ leading to correspondingly
deep flamewars² because of incomplete interpretations of "minor"
editorial changes.

---

¹ https://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_003

² Such as the thread starting at
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg01929.html


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[gregor herrmann]

On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 15:27:56 +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:

> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.


Cheers,
gregor

-- 
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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> 
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost 
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
> 
> This change can be applied by a simple sed command (s/Chairman/Chair/g).  I'm
> attaching the diff between the current constitution document and the output of
> said sed command to make it explicit that no other changes are intended.

Seconded.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Bdale Garbee]

Margarita Manterola  writes:

> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:

Seconded.

Bdale


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Bdale Garbee]

martin f krafft  writes:

> In addition to the proposed change, the project shall vote to
> empower the DPL together with the Project Secretary to make minor
> editorial changes in our foundation documents without requiring
> the process of a GR.
>
> To protect our foundations, such a change must be announced and can
> only be put into effect following a four week period during which no
> opposing GR has been launched.

While I think this is very well-intended, I would be highly likely to
vote against the GR if amended in this way.

Bdale


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Philip Hands]

Margarita Manterola  writes:

> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost 
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
>
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
>
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
>
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
>
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
>
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Jérémy Bobbio]

Margarita Manterola:
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

-- 
Lunar.''`. 
lu...@debian.org: :Ⓐ  :  # apt-get install anarchism
`. `'` 
  `-   


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Mehdi Dogguy]

On 08/07/2016 15:27, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
>

Seconded.

-- 
Mehdi



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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[陳昌倬]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.


-- 
ChangZhuo Chen (陳昌倬) 
Debian Developer (https://nm.debian.org/public/person/czchen)
Key fingerprint = EC9F 905D 866D BE46 A896  C827 BE0C 9242 03F4 552D
  BA04 346D C2E1 FE63 C790  8793 CC65 B0CD EC27 5D5B


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Ana Guerrero Lopez]

> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.




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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:58:34PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
> I would like to propose the following amendment to Marga's GR:
> 
> In addition to the proposed change, the project shall vote to
> empower the DPL together with the Project Secretary to make minor
> editorial changes in our foundation documents without requiring
> the process of a GR.
> 
> To protect our foundations, such a change must be announced and can
> only be put into effect following a four week period during which no
> opposing GR has been launched.
I can't say anything about the actual process wording but I welcome the
spirit of this amendment.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Steve McIntyre]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
>
>I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
>
>=== BEGIN GR TEXT ===
>
>Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
>
>All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
>
>=== END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
< liw> everything I know about UK hotels I learned from "Fawlty Towers"


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:58:34PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
> I would like to propose the following amendment to Marga's GR:
> 
> In addition to the proposed change, the project shall vote to
> empower the DPL together with the Project Secretary to make minor
> editorial changes in our foundation documents without requiring
> the process of a GR.
> 
> To protect our foundations, such a change must be announced and can
> only be put into effect following a four week period during which no
> opposing GR has been launched.

Can you make that something like K devolopers object?

Would it make sense to either have this as separate option,
not modifying the Chainman or as seperate GR?


Kurt

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Le vendredi, 8 juillet 2016, 15.27:56 Margarita Manterola a écrit :
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian
> Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word
> Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded; thanks!

-- 
Cheers,
OdyX

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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

-- 
Luca Filipozzi
http://www.crowdrise.com/SupportDebian


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

This proposal has enough seconds, I'll set up the vote page soon.


Kurt

Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Nicolas Dandrimont]

* Margarita Manterola  [2016-07-08 15:27:56 +0200]:

> 
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost 
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

Thanks for bringing this up,
-- 
Nicolas Dandrimont

"If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system."
(By Linus Torvalds)


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Francesca Ciceri]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> 
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost 
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
> 

Seconded.

-- 
"But people should also get engaged and interested in understanding 
other *people* and finding ways to work with other people in difficult
situations, since at the end of the day our communities are about 
people, not software."
Russ Allbery


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Keith Packard]

Margarita Manterola  writes:

> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
>
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
>
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
>
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

-- 
-keith


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> 
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost 
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
> 
> This change can be applied by a simple sed command (s/Chairman/Chair/g).  I'm
> attaching the diff between the current constitution document and the output of
> said sed command to make it explicit that no other changes are intended.

Seconded.


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[martin f krafft]

I would like to propose the following amendment to Marga's GR:

In addition to the proposed change, the project shall vote to
empower the DPL together with the Project Secretary to make minor
editorial changes in our foundation documents without requiring
the process of a GR.

To protect our foundations, such a change must be announced and can
only be put into effect following a four week period during which no
opposing GR has been launched.

Thanks,

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"never speak disrespectfully of society.
 only people who can't get into it do that."
  -- oscar wilde


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[martin f krafft]

also sprach Margarita Manterola  [2016-07-08 15:27 +0200]:
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded.

-- 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft  @martinkrafft
: :'  :  proud Debian developer
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
"one should never do anything that
 one cannot talk about after dinner."
  -- oscar wilde


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Gunnar Wolf]

Margarita Manterola dijo [Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200]:
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===

Seconded


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Re: GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Lars Wirzenius]

Seconded.

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 03:27:56PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> 
> The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost 
> completely
> ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
> Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
> alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
> simpler and shorter.
> 
> I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:
> 
> === BEGIN GR TEXT ===
> 
> Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution
> 
> All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.
> 
> === END GR TEXT ===
> 
> This change can be applied by a simple sed command (s/Chairman/Chair/g).  I'm
> attaching the diff between the current constitution document and the output of
> said sed command to make it explicit that no other changes are intended.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Marga

> --- constitution.wml  2016-02-25 08:03:04.0 +0100
> +++ constitution.new.wml  2016-07-08 15:18:41.857474553 +0200
> @@ -37,7 +37,7 @@
>  
>The Project Leader;
>  
> -  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
> +  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;
>  
>The individual Developer working on a particular task;
>  
> @@ -69,7 +69,7 @@
>  
>
>  A person may hold several posts, except that the Project Leader,
> -Project Secretary and the Chairman of the Technical Committee must
> +Project Secretary and the Chair of the Technical Committee must
>  be distinct, and that the Leader cannot appoint themselves as their
>  own Delegate.
>
> @@ -460,10 +460,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -Appoint the Chairman of the Technical Committee.
> +Appoint the Chair of the Technical Committee.
>  
>  
> -   The Chairman is elected by the Committee from its members. All
> +   The Chair is elected by the Committee from its members. All
> members of the committee are automatically nominated; the
> committee votes starting one week before the post will become
> vacant (or immediately, if it is already too late). The members
> @@ -476,10 +476,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -The Chairman can stand in for the Leader, together with the
> +The Chair can stand in for the Leader, together with the
>  Secretary
>  
> -As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chairman of the Technical
> +As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chair of the Technical
>  Committee and the Project Secretary may together stand in for the
>  Leader if there is no Leader.
>
> @@ -561,10 +561,10 @@
>
>  Details regarding voting
>  
> -The Chairman has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
> +The Chair has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
>  votes whether to override a Developer who also happens to be a
>  member of the Committee, that member may not vote (unless they are
> -the Chairman, in which case they may use only their casting
> +the Chair, in which case they may use only their casting
>  vote).
>
>  
> @@ -627,10 +627,10 @@
>
>  
>
> -Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chairman of the
> +Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chair of the
>  Technical Committee.
>  
> -If there is no Project Leader then the Chairman of the
> +If there is no Project Leader then the Chair of the
>  Technical Committee and the Project Secretary may by joint
>  agreement make decisions if they consider it imperative to do
>  so.
> @@ -658,7 +658,7 @@
>  
>  If there is no Project Secretary or the current Secretary is
>  unavailable and has not delegated authority for a decision then the
> -decision may be made or delegated by the Chairman of the Technical
> +decision may be made or delegated by the Chair of the Technical
>  Committee, as Acting Secretary.
>  
>  The Project Secretary's term of office is 1 year, at which point
> @@ -671,7 +671,7 @@
>  Developers.
>  
>  When acting together to stand in for an absent Project Leader the
> -Chairman of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
> +Chair of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
>  make decisions only when absolutely necessary and only when consistent
>  with the consensus of the Developers.
>  




-- 
Schrödinger's backup hypothesis: the condition of any backup is
undefined until a restore is attempted. -- andrewsh


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GR Proposal: replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

[Margarita Manterola]

The Debian Constitution is very well written, in a way that is almost completely
ungendered.  The only gendered word left is the Chairman of the Technical
Committee.  There is no reason for this position to be gendered. Ungendered
alternatives for Chairman are Chair and Chairperson. While both work, Chair is
simpler and shorter.

I'm therefore proposing the following General Resolution:

=== BEGIN GR TEXT ===

Title: Replace "Chairman" with "Chair" throughout the Debian Constitution

All appearances of the word Chairman shall be replaced with the word Chair.

=== END GR TEXT ===

This change can be applied by a simple sed command (s/Chairman/Chair/g).  I'm
attaching the diff between the current constitution document and the output of
said sed command to make it explicit that no other changes are intended.

-- 
Regards,
Marga
--- constitution.wml	2016-02-25 08:03:04.0 +0100
+++ constitution.new.wml	2016-07-08 15:18:41.857474553 +0200
@@ -37,7 +37,7 @@
 
   The Project Leader;
 
-  The Technical Committee and/or its Chairman;
+  The Technical Committee and/or its Chair;
 
   The individual Developer working on a particular task;
 
@@ -69,7 +69,7 @@
 
   
 A person may hold several posts, except that the Project Leader,
-Project Secretary and the Chairman of the Technical Committee must
+Project Secretary and the Chair of the Technical Committee must
 be distinct, and that the Leader cannot appoint themselves as their
 own Delegate.
   
@@ -460,10 +460,10 @@
   
 
   
-Appoint the Chairman of the Technical Committee.
+Appoint the Chair of the Technical Committee.
 
 
-   The Chairman is elected by the Committee from its members. All
+   The Chair is elected by the Committee from its members. All
members of the committee are automatically nominated; the
committee votes starting one week before the post will become
vacant (or immediately, if it is already too late). The members
@@ -476,10 +476,10 @@
   
 
   
-The Chairman can stand in for the Leader, together with the
+The Chair can stand in for the Leader, together with the
 Secretary
 
-As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chairman of the Technical
+As detailed in §7.1(2), the Chair of the Technical
 Committee and the Project Secretary may together stand in for the
 Leader if there is no Leader.
   
@@ -561,10 +561,10 @@
   
 Details regarding voting
 
-The Chairman has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
+The Chair has a casting vote.  When the Technical Committee
 votes whether to override a Developer who also happens to be a
 member of the Committee, that member may not vote (unless they are
-the Chairman, in which case they may use only their casting
+the Chair, in which case they may use only their casting
 vote).
   
 
@@ -627,10 +627,10 @@
   
 
   
-Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chairman of the
+Can stand in for the Leader, together with the Chair of the
 Technical Committee.
 
-If there is no Project Leader then the Chairman of the
+If there is no Project Leader then the Chair of the
 Technical Committee and the Project Secretary may by joint
 agreement make decisions if they consider it imperative to do
 so.
@@ -658,7 +658,7 @@
 
 If there is no Project Secretary or the current Secretary is
 unavailable and has not delegated authority for a decision then the
-decision may be made or delegated by the Chairman of the Technical
+decision may be made or delegated by the Chair of the Technical
 Committee, as Acting Secretary.
 
 The Project Secretary's term of office is 1 year, at which point
@@ -671,7 +671,7 @@
 Developers.
 
 When acting together to stand in for an absent Project Leader the
-Chairman of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
+Chair of the Technical Committee and the Project Secretary should
 make decisions only when absolutely necessary and only when consistent
 with the consensus of the Developers.
 


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