Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
Le Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:32:22PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf a écrit : What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect? Hello Gunnar, Biology shows that complex systems often evolved “leaders”, even when they are selected or take their actions randomly. In Debian as well, I think that a DPL or an equivalent function is necessary, not as a position of power, an official face or a model to follow, but as a piece of the machine that makes a coordinated project, as opposed to a fruitful but ephemeral collaboration of independant entities. Have a nice day, -- Charles -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100331153540.ga15...@kunpuu.plessy.org
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org wrote: Of course - But we do have a press team. If we were to lack a Leader, the press team would just become the contact point for the press, right? Without a leader, the press team would have to be delegated by the body of developers, through a GR or similar election, in order to actually be the voice of Debian. (note that I am not against the DPL position, I am just entertaining the idea) I beg you to please stop entertaining it until it at least seems possible. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e8bbf0361003180502p1bcddf70ia6c664d5e3893...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
Hi! Margarita Manterola schrieb: Without a leader, the press team would have to be delegated by the body of developers, through a GR or similar election, in order to actually be the voice of Debian. Leaving out meta questions, when one can be considered to be the voice of Debian, but the press team are already delegates. Best regards, Alexander -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba21f94.4060...@debian.org
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 11:07:32PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
Of course - But we do have a press team. If we were to lack a Leader,
the press team would just become the contact point for the press,
right?
Right, but the difference is in directionality.
The press team puts into use their abilities to communicate properly
something which has been decided by others entities of the project which
are entitled to take the actual decision (specific teams or the DDs as a
whole by the means of a GR). The press team however cannot answer to
specific questions on behalf of the project, whereas the DPL can.
Of course the DPL should not be pressed into _taking_ decision by the
question he/she receives. The DPL, being a _representative_ role towards
the world, should only reply on subjects which have been already decided
upon by other project entities. But that's a different matter.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl toli...@debian.org wrote: Without a leader, the press team would have to be delegated by the body of developers, through a GR or similar election, in order to actually be the voice of Debian. Leaving out meta questions, when one can be considered to be the voice of Debian, but the press team are already delegates. I know, but if we were to be without a DPL, those delegations could not be re-validated. It is not clear by reading the Constitution what would happen to the DPL delegates if there was no DPL. However, even assuming that all delegations stand, if someone resigns to their post and there's no DPL then there's no way of replacing that someone with someone else, without some voting implied. I'm sorry, but I really don't see any use to all this mind exercise, could we stop now, please? -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e8bbf0361003180553y2cca3ffhffbdf1da830fe...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 09:53:46AM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: I know, but if we were to be without a DPL, those delegations could not be re-validated. It is not clear by reading the Constitution what would happen to the DPL delegates if there was no DPL. However, even assuming that all delegations stand, if someone resigns to their post and there's no DPL then there's no way of replacing that someone with someone else, without some voting implied. Actually, if there's no DPL, then the secretary and the chairman of the TC must jointly take up the role of the DPL (what, you didn't think the world would end, did you? ;-) I'm sorry, but I really don't see any use to all this mind exercise, could we stop now, please? My thoughts exactly. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
Hi, On Tue, 16.03.2010 at 22:32:22 -0600, Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org wrote: As per Constitution 5.2.4, the vote should be repeated, as many times as needed. Lets just assume it was different: The project has voted not to have a leader anymore. What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect? I am not a candidate, but I can immediately see that the press would take the voice of random DDs as the voice of the Debian project in cases when it wants a statement. As we were not unanimous on many issues in the past, just imagine what if one of the people who are no longer around would have been able to make official statements on behalf of Debian. I bet that this could become quite interesting. ;} Kind regards, --Toni++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100317102757.14648.qm...@oak.oeko.net
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:32:22PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: So, today is April 15, and our Secretary prepares for a very difficult announcement: There is a majority of votes for NOTA. Or we didn't reach quorum. Or whatever you fancy - But the result is, none of the four candidates won the election. As per Constitution 5.2.4, the vote should be repeated, as many times as needed. Lets just assume it was different: The project has voted not to have a leader anymore. What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect? The DPL has always been a job of coordination: when important decisions were made that involved loads of stuff, often the DPL would be included in that decision, even if he didn't have any prior knowledge of the subject. This is valuable, because it means the DPL knows at least a bit about loads of the goings-on in the project, and can have two (groups of) people talk to eachother if (s)he thinks that would help them both out and they didn't know about eachother. We would lose such coordination, which I think is quite important. Also, we would lose a single face to the project, as Toni already mentioned. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
[ quoted text reordered ]
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:32:22PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
(Yes, quite a hypothetical question. However, if 10-year predictions
are allowed, then mine is too ;-) )
Well, let's not drift too much in that direction, shall we? :-)
(Just kidding, this question is perfectly fine, but I do fear what _can_
happen if we unleash the geek power of posing hypothetical questions!)
What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the
project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect?
In the immediate, we will lose someone taking care of some of the
constitutional DPL duties, like: taking decisions which are either
urgent or for whom no one is responsible, deciding how/if use money
(possibly quickly, due to some urgency), representing Debian with the
external world (i.e. addressing the single voice problem mentioned in
this thread).
Then we will lose an important coordination role that worries about
making people and teams communicate smoothly, even in presence of
personal issues among the involved people (e.g. as intermediary).
Finally and more importantly, we will lose someone that can put into use
an important potential of the DPL role, namely: someone that should
drive discussions when and if needed, someone that should coordinate the
redaction of the project agenda and check periodically if we're on track
or not, and that can use some of our resources to help the project get
back on track if needed (e.g. by organizing specific mini-hack-camps on
technical areas of the project we need to improve).
All in all, I don't doubt the Debian project will survive without a
leader; in fact, it has already happened to us in the past that DPLs
went MIA for unexpected reasons, and we're still here. It would just
be a pity, in the sense that we would renounce to a resource that can
make the project proceed more smoothly than without it.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:32 AM, Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org wrote: What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect? The Constitution gives the DPL a number of duties that would then be vacant. Even though it wouldn't necessarily lead to total chaos, having no one to decide what to do with Debian's money, no one to appoint the necessary delegates when some of them resign, and no one to be the central voice to speak for Debian, could be quite problematic. It could be possible to resort to many more GRs than we are currently having, and vote on everything that has to be decided, but it wouldn't be a good productive use of everybody's time. Mainly, the DPL is the role of a person capable of inspiring all the developers into working together towards a common goal. By losing the DPL role, we would lose the chance of really being a united community and become separate individuals working on separate stuff. I do not kid myself, I know that many times that's what we are, but still I think that the leader helps keep us more or less on track. I can't think of any advantages of having no leader. I second zack's request to please not continue with this hypotheticals, please, I'd rather use my brain to think about real problems and the solutions needed. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e8bbf0361003171851j2a6aeb9ev18c4608498e5b...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
Toni Mueller dijo [Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 11:27:57AM +0100]: What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect? I am not a candidate, but I can immediately see that the press would take the voice of random DDs as the voice of the Debian project in cases when it wants a statement. As we were not unanimous on many issues in the past, just imagine what if one of the people who are no longer around would have been able to make official statements on behalf of Debian. I bet that this could become quite interesting. ;} Of course - But we do have a press team. If we were to lack a Leader, the press team would just become the contact point for the press, right? (note that I am not against the DPL position, I am just entertaining the idea) -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100318050732.gf27...@gwolf.org
Question for DD candidates: The race against NOTA
So, today is April 15, and our Secretary prepares for a very difficult announcement: There is a majority of votes for NOTA. Or we didn't reach quorum. Or whatever you fancy - But the result is, none of the four candidates won the election. As per Constitution 5.2.4, the vote should be repeated, as many times as needed. Lets just assume it was different: The project has voted not to have a leader anymore. What would be different if there was no leader? Where would the project lose more? Would it gain in some aspect? (Yes, quite a hypothetical question. However, if 10-year predictions are allowed, then mine is too ;-) ) -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100317043222.gc13...@gwolf.org
