Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Hi all, the question of the core infrastructures is difficult and very important. Le Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:30:39AM +0100, Marc Haber a écrit : Do you see the diminishing care for our Core infrastructure as a problem? Do you have any idea how do sensibilize our new blood for the fact that new packages doesn't help Debian if our Core stuff is diminishing? I know that this is not exactly within the power of the DPL, but do you think that you, as DPL, can help speeding up Core development again? Le Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:52:44PM +0100, Frans Pop a écrit : Marc Haber wrote: In the last years I have seen a really disturbing development in Debian: New developers are very interested in bringing new packages into Debian, but care for our core infrastructure (dpkg, apt) has a little bit diminished. Good question and quite true. IMO it's worth adding to that: - Debian Installer development - Porting: several ports are struggling - Documentation maintenance: - website - Release Notes - various other guides Le Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 01:36:28PM +0100, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl a écrit : ftp-team and more or less everything PR related. Le Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 02:28:15PM +0100, Josselin Mouette a écrit : Core packages: glibc, kernel, X.org, Mozilla, KDE, GNOME… Le Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:25:39PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx a écrit : I think that one of issues we have is that there is alot of work to be done by some teams, some of them even regularaly mail that they need more members, but they seem to have a hard time keeping the numbers up, burning the other team members out. What are your ideas to make sure those teams keep running? I see this as a symptom of the ‘growth crisis’ that I mention in my platform. Debian is now big enough to attract contributors who – like me – have their field of interest largely at the periphery of the system. As an enthousiastic member of a ‘Debian Pure Blend’ project, I think that it is a good thing for Debian to have this peripheral work done internally, so let's see how to help to keep an equilibrated growth, which eases contribution of all DDs to the core infrastructures. I particularly like the quote attributed to Roland, “Home is where you have to wash the dishes.”, because there is need to know to how cook to help wash dishes after the meal. And it feels good to be home. Everybody can find his own way and vary involvement according to one's own plans, but I think that we really should encourage all DDs to devote some times to common tasks. There needs to keep a good balance to be stimulating and not stigmatizing, but I think that a DPL (or other DDs) could send a general announcement asking to the other DDs what they are doing for the project and encourage them to describe their role on a personal page (like wiki.debian.org's DD portfolios). One indirect instrument to help contributors to help the core teams is a milestone-based release process like the one that was implemented for Lenny. There were regular and clear messages in the form of achieved release goals and a progressive freeze, that I found very helpful to provide a time frame in which I balanced my favorite activities with contributions of general interest, increasing the quantity general tasks as the release was getting closer. There is also a nice effort of listing teams on our wiki. In parallel to this, I would like to list and describe the DPL delegations on our website. Many core teams are structured around a DPL delegation and this list could link to pages where the teams can describe what kind of help they need (in the most simple case, the wiki team's page). Sadly, there are also teams that refuse help. In my personal experience, I proposed to help process the NEW queue or with the answer to the SPI lawyers about copyrights, and never got an answer. I will make clear on the written delegations that proposals for help must not be left unanswered, and that refusals must be justified. In my platform, I also mention that there are too many restricted operations. Checking other developers work is a very time-consuming task, and being a bottleneck is a stressful situation that leads to burnout and arguments. We need an infrastructure that is more resilient on errors, and more open access and peer review. Of course, repeated ingorance of warnings is harmful to the Project, and in the most extreme cases, a developer who does not have a responsible behaviour could be asked to refrain using some parts of our infrastructure, or quit. There are many other ways to help the core teams, with some events like the recent GNOME day, for instance. I think that they are very refreshing as they break the routine and give an extra motivation to help others. The DPL can help to establish such events if they need to be supported by some spendings (but if it becomes regular events, it would be necessary to find a sponsor). I have not answered to an important aspect of the
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:56:58PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: Wouter Verhelst dijo [Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:45:33AM +0100]: The numbers are easy. The amount of Debian Developers has been approximately steady at about 1000 for the past ten years. Over that same time, the amount of packages in our distribution has been steadily increasing. By definition, that means the ratio of Debian Developers per package has been doing down, and thus also that the core infrastructure has less contributors. Having more packages does not necessarily mean that only fringe packages are added; useful new software is written all the time, and the fact that useful new software is written does not make useful old software disappear. I believe the problem is not that less people are interested in Debian's core infrastructure; the problem is that less people are interested in *Debian*. We need to work on that. As we say in Dutch, stilstaan is achteruitgaan -- standing still is the same as going backwards -- and the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. Umm, yes, but during the seven years I have been part of this project, we shifted from a collections of mostly solo-maintained to a good number of team-maintained packages. And we have opened the DM scheme (imperfect but still much better than not having it IMO), which brings in important numbers of new contributors. Certainly. But there's still a difference between a Debian Developer and a DM. Nobody can do a sponsored upload, except a DD. Nobody can do an NMU, except a DD. Nobody can maintain a buildd host, except a DD. This implies that there are some fairly important jobs that can only be done by DDs. And since reaching Debian Developer status is usually a sign of gaining a certain level of experience with Debian and Free Software in general, this means that most of the core contributors to Debian are those same DDs. So while I agree that the situation isn't as dramatic as a simple look at the number of DDs would seem to suggest, I think it could easily become that if we don't act. [...] -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 12:01:14PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Nobody can do a sponsored upload, except a DD. Nobody can do an NMU, except a DD. Nobody can maintain a buildd host, except a DD. It was pointed out to me on IRC that yes, there are sponsored NMUs, and that it therefore is 'strange' to mention those as separate points here. While that is really orthogonal to the point I was trying to get across, namely that there are several important jobs that only DDs can do, I should perhaps clarify what I meant here: that an NMU is something that, while it can be *prepared* by someone else, only a DD can do; and since sponsors are supposed to check packages before they upload (especially if the package is by someone they don't know), it usually means little if any reduction in the work for the DD (who will do the non-maintainer upload), anyway. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Hi, On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:45:33AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Given the above, I believe the most important task ahead of us is making Debian more attractive for users and prospective contributors; that is what I intend to work on. How do you intend to work on this? Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 3221 2323190 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316123551.gc16...@torres.zugschlus.de
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, 16.03.2010 at 01:45:33 +0100, Wouter Verhelst wou...@debian.org wrote: increasing. By definition, that means the ratio of Debian Developers per package has been doing down, and thus also that the core infrastructure has less contributors. Having more packages does not necessarily mean that only fringe packages are added; useful new software is written all the time, and the fact that useful new software is written does not make useful old software disappear. Also, the pure number of packages is not a good indicator for package quality. There are packages that are almost no-brainers that can be put together in minutes, and there are packages that require weeks of effort to create, and more weeks to maintain. There's no problem in having more few minutes packages because they don't really increase the workload that much. I believe the problem is not that less people are interested in Debian's core infrastructure; the problem is that less people are interested in *Debian*. I have to agree very much on that. We need to work on that. As we say in Dutch, stilstaan is achteruitgaan -- standing still is the same as going backwards -- and We have the same in German: Stillstand ist Rueckschritt. I believe that most languages have a proverb of similar spirit. the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. If it hasn't declined very much, that'd be a good thing already. Given the above, I believe the most important task ahead of us is making Debian more attractive for users and prospective contributors; that is what I intend to work on. This is a very good idea, imho. On a personal note, really by far the most people I hear talking about Linux, are talking about Ubuntu and claim that Debian being unfriendly to the user. -- Kind regards, --Toni++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316121418.30737.qm...@oak.oeko.net
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:35:51PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Hi, On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:45:33AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Given the above, I believe the most important task ahead of us is making Debian more attractive for users and prospective contributors; that is what I intend to work on. How do you intend to work on this? I explain that in my platform. Rather than repeating it here, I suggest you wait until the platforms are published; if you still have questions after that, I will be happy to answer them. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:14:18PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now.
If it hasn't declined very much, that'd be a good thing already.
FWIW, the total number of DDs is not a particularly good indicator of
the work force we have in Debian. Until recently, with the introduction
of (periodic) WAT runs, the number of DDs was just meant to go up and
up, given that people basically needed to voluntarily resign, even if
they have been inactive for very long time. In this election the number
of DDs which have the right to vote will be significantly lower than in
the past, just because the last WAT runs have been more incisive. I
won't derive any more conclusion from that.
The number of _active_ DDs (in terms at least of uploads, vote, BTS
activity, ...) would be much more indicative of the Debian work
force. There is an interesting study conducted by Gaudenz Steinlin and
presented at last DebConf [1,2]. It has shows how the number of Debian
contributors (a large category which also includes people like bug
reporters) has significantly faded in favor of Ubuntu, but that at the
same time the amount of active developers in Debian has continued its
steady growth, sustained by people that get first in touch with Ubuntu
and then start contributing directly to Debian.
Cheers.
[1] https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/events/456.en.html
[2]
http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2009/11/on_mail_addresses_and_upload_rights/
(blog post of mine where I discussed [1] a bit)
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:59:39PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:14:18PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. If it hasn't declined very much, that'd be a good thing already. FWIW, the total number of DDs is not a particularly good indicator of the work force we have in Debian. That is true to some extent, but not entirely. Only Debian Developers can upload random packages, sponsor other people's packages, perform NMUs, etc. I also would feel uncomfortable with having a Debian Maintainer perform an unsupervised upload of a core package like dpkg or glibc. So while Debian Developers are not necessarily the whole work force we have in Debian, they are the core and more important part. Until recently, with the introduction of (periodic) WAT runs, the number of DDs was just meant to go up and up, given that people basically needed to voluntarily resign, even if they have been inactive for very long time. That number was indeed meant to go up, but it didn't. That in itself is indicative of a problem; even with the voluntary-only resigning of people, the influx of new blood did not outperform the exodus of resigning developers. [...] -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100316140509.gh7...@celtic.nixsys.be
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Wouter Verhelst dijo [Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 01:45:33AM +0100]: The numbers are easy. The amount of Debian Developers has been approximately steady at about 1000 for the past ten years. Over that same time, the amount of packages in our distribution has been steadily increasing. By definition, that means the ratio of Debian Developers per package has been doing down, and thus also that the core infrastructure has less contributors. Having more packages does not necessarily mean that only fringe packages are added; useful new software is written all the time, and the fact that useful new software is written does not make useful old software disappear. I believe the problem is not that less people are interested in Debian's core infrastructure; the problem is that less people are interested in *Debian*. We need to work on that. As we say in Dutch, stilstaan is achteruitgaan -- standing still is the same as going backwards -- and the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. Umm, yes, but during the seven years I have been part of this project, we shifted from a collections of mostly solo-maintained to a good number of team-maintained packages. And we have opened the DM scheme (imperfect but still much better than not having it IMO), which brings in important numbers of new contributors. We have also, via the MIA runs, lowered the number of inactive developers bloating the numbers. As of today, we have 891 DDs and 107 DMs (at least as keyring-maint is aware). That means the MIA runs lowered the numbers by a quite noticeable ~15% in the last couple of months. And although DDs still outnumber almost 9:1 DMs, the DM scheme is relatively new; I expect DM size to grow to be at least the same size as DD (even taking into account many DMs eventually become DDs). -- Gunnar Wolf • gw...@gwolf.org • (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100317045658.gd13...@gwolf.org
Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
This is for all candidates. In the last years I have seen a really disturbing development in Debian: New developers are very interested in bringing new packages into Debian, but care for our core infrastructure (dpkg, apt) has a little bit diminished. I am not saying that noone seems to care, but I see a lot of annoying issues not being addressed. An totally incomplete list: - dpkg still uses normal console prompting for dpkg-conffile handling, while debconf has been mandatory for regular packages for years now. - it is still not possible to control package A's dpkg-conffiles from package B, the canonical suggesting being cfengine and/or puppet - aptitude is unable to display its conflict solutions for months now - The concept of all services are immediately started after configuration and deleting all stop/start links will cause the package's defaults to be re-established on the next package update is meeting a lot of resistance in the user base lately. Many people use this as explanation why Debian is totally out of the question in a professional environment for them. - The release team has been crying for help multiple times with nobody being willing to step up and help. Do you see the diminishing care for our Core infrastructure as a problem? Do you have any idea how do sensibilize our new blood for the fact that new packages doesn't help Debian if our Core stuff is diminishing? I know that this is not exactly within the power of the DPL, but do you think that you, as DPL, can help speeding up Core development again? Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 3221 2323190 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100315103039.ga15...@torres.zugschlus.de
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Marc Haber wrote: In the last years I have seen a really disturbing development in Debian: New developers are very interested in bringing new packages into Debian, but care for our core infrastructure (dpkg, apt) has a little bit diminished. Good question and quite true. IMO it's worth adding to that: - Debian Installer development - Porting: several ports are struggling - Documentation maintenance: - website - Release Notes - various other guides -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201003151252.45199.elen...@planet.nl
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Hi, On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:52:44PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: IMO it's worth adding to that: - Debian Installer development - Porting: several ports are struggling - Documentation maintenance: - website - Release Notes - various other guides Agreed. Any more additions by others? Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 3221 2323190 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100315115422.gc15...@torres.zugschlus.de
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Hi! Marc Haber schrieb: - Debian Installer development - Porting: several ports are struggling - Documentation maintenance: - website - Release Notes - various other guides Agreed. Any more additions by others? ftp-team and more or less everything PR related. Best regards, Alexander signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Le lundi 15 mars 2010 à 12:54 +0100, Marc Haber a écrit : Agreed. Any more additions by others? Core packages: glibc, kernel, X.org, Mozilla, KDE, GNOME… These are the packages everything else is built upon, yet people are more interested in adding yet another implementation of existing functionality. Cheers, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “A handshake with whitnesses is the same `- as a signed contact.” -- Jörg Schilling -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1268659695.30798.12.ca...@meh
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Marc Haber mh+debian-v...@zugschlus.de wrote: Do you see the diminishing care for our Core infrastructure as a problem? Do you have any idea how do sensibilize our new blood for the fact that new packages doesn't help Debian if our Core stuff is diminishing? I know that this is not exactly within the power of the DPL, but do you think that you, as DPL, can help speeding up Core development again? As you say, this is quite not in the power of the DPL to solve. The only way that the problems listed by you and by the other messages in this thread could be solved is by inspiring people to work on those issues. How? That's a very tricky question, since people are inspired in several different ways. However, it's quite common for people to approach the project (be it through a mailing list, IRC or maybe personally asking a DD), saying that they want to Help Debian... But we don't usually list those core tasks as ways of helping Debian, because they are seen as too important for newbies to help with. I'm thinking that we could try to have a more fancy Get involved in helping Debian page, where all teams that welcome help could post their tasks and try to attract new contributors. Maybe even have a parallell page that is only for DDs (since, for example, the release team and ftp team require DDness, because the needed machine access), and invite DDs to contribute more to Debian through it. Having the requests for help more visible and easily findable by more people would hopefully lead to more people helping out. Or not, but I think it's worth trying. Apart from that, I cannot think of a way to fix the core teams lack of manpower. It's not -like it used to be in some cases- that the teams are not accepting new members, so we only need to reach the people that want to join. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e8bbf0361003150827k7301159dl348b7e436c1d7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:30:39AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
Do you see the diminishing care for our Core infrastructure as a
problem? Do you have any idea how do sensibilize our new blood for the
fact that new packages doesn't help Debian if our Core stuff is
diminishing? I know that this is not exactly within the power of the
DPL, but do you think that you, as DPL, can help speeding up Core
development again?
I'm a bit more pessimistic than you when looking at the past: this is
a problem which has more or less always plagued Debian, at least while
I've been around. A lot of QA activities are for instance concerned with
getting rid of yet another package with a popcon of 5. If the lack of
manpower in the core infrastructure looks more acute these days, it is
probably because the overall amount of Debian manpower is lowering
(which is worrisome per se).
I agree that there is no silver bullet in DPL hands to fix that, and I
surely agree that in most cases the problem do not lay in teams not
accepting members [1].
Something I'd like to try if elected DPL is to keep a list of teams in
need of help [2]. Then, periodically and at worst in my monthly bits
from ... posts, I intend to have a section which kind of makes a focus
on the specific team which is looking for new people. It is probably
nothing and won't change much, but it is a worthwhile attempt.
I also consider a responsibility of the DPL to prod specific people to
join core teams which are understaffed, as I believe has pretty much
always happened with past DPLs, but that can be no more than
invitations, in agreement with the involved team. (And no, that's no
excuse to lack transparent join rules for the team, it is just a way to
have team staffing going in both directions: passive and active.)
Cheers.
[1] ... and when I see young, motivated, and very active DDs entering
core teams as it happened in the past years in teams like release
and ftp masters, I'm *very* delighted.
[2] yes, that list probably equates the overall list of Debian teams,
but managing priorities is something a DPL is expected to do, right?
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Marc Haber wrote: - dpkg still uses normal console prompting for dpkg-conffile handling, while debconf has been mandatory for regular packages for years now. Dpkg has more active development now than it has for much of the past fifteen years. And they've even talked some about implementing debconf conffile prompting and fixing other much worse dpkg/debconf integration points. That's fairly minor compared to developing saner source package formats, really. One could complain that debconf itself is not being as well maintained as it might be. One of its two maintainers avoided having anything to do with Debian for a full year recently. Especially the transition to using cdebconf has been stalled far too long, on some bugs that are documented and should be a straightforward matter of coding to fix. - The concept of all services are immediately started after configuration and deleting all stop/start links will cause the package's defaults to be re-established on the next package update is meeting a lot of resistance in the user base lately. Many people use this as explanation why Debian is totally out of the question in a professional environment for them. Is there some reason that these professional environments cannot deploy a 2 line policy-rc.d? Perhaps someone should make a no-auto-start-daemon package that contains it? I have seen a lot of users run into the update-rc.d link issue, but never seen any perceive it as anything more than a minor gotcha that you learn the workaround for. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 03:45:46PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Marc Haber wrote: - The concept of all services are immediately started after configuration and deleting all stop/start links will cause the package's defaults to be re-established on the next package update is meeting a lot of resistance in the user base lately. Many people use this as explanation why Debian is totally out of the question in a professional environment for them. Is there some reason that these professional environments cannot deploy a 2 line policy-rc.d? Perhaps someone should make a no-auto-start-daemon package that contains it? Maybe we failed to provide such a two-liner, which in fact is, unfortunately, much more complicated than one might think naively. Additionally, example code for policy-rc.d is (almost?) nonexistent. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 3221 2323190 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100315225452.gc32...@torres.zugschlus.de
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
Marc Haber mh+debian-v...@zugschlus.de (15/03/2010): Maybe we failed to provide such a two-liner, which in fact is, unfortunately, much more complicated than one might think naively. Additionally, example code for policy-rc.d is (almost?) nonexistent. Maybe running reportbug would be more efficient than talking about it on -vote@, don't you think? Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:04:57AM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Marc Haber mh+debian-v...@zugschlus.de (15/03/2010): Maybe we failed to provide such a two-liner, which in fact is, unfortunately, much more complicated than one might think naively. Additionally, example code for policy-rc.d is (almost?) nonexistent. Maybe running reportbug would be more efficient than talking about it on -vote@, don't you think? Such as #452465, filed in November 2007? Remember, this is about manpower. Not about bugs rotting away in the BTS because nobody cares to fix them. Having invoke-rc.d implemented in at least two different package doesn't make finding the right place for docs any easier. But this was only one of an incomplete list of examples. There is no need to brag about this one. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 3221 2323190 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100315230851.ge32...@torres.zugschlus.de
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:04:57AM +0100, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Marc Haber mh+debian-v...@zugschlus.de (15/03/2010): Maybe we failed to provide such a two-liner, which in fact is, unfortunately, much more complicated than one might think naively. Additionally, example code for policy-rc.d is (almost?) nonexistent. Maybe running reportbug would be more efficient than talking about it on -vote@, don't you think? Like #452645 ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100315230945.ga9...@glandium.org
Re: Question for all candidates: Care of Core infrastructure
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:30:39AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: This is for all candidates. In the last years I have seen a really disturbing development in Debian: New developers are very interested in bringing new packages into Debian, but care for our core infrastructure (dpkg, apt) has a little bit diminished. I am not saying that noone seems to care, but I see a lot of annoying issues not being addressed. An totally incomplete list: [...snip examples...] Do you see the diminishing care for our Core infrastructure as a problem? Yes. I point to this very problem in my platform (though I give different examples, the points are basically the same). But I believe the problem is wider than just the core infrastructure; it is about the project as a whole facing competition for attracting distribution developers by the fact that there are several other community-based distributions out there today than there were about a decade ago. The numbers are easy. The amount of Debian Developers has been approximately steady at about 1000 for the past ten years. Over that same time, the amount of packages in our distribution has been steadily increasing. By definition, that means the ratio of Debian Developers per package has been doing down, and thus also that the core infrastructure has less contributors. Having more packages does not necessarily mean that only fringe packages are added; useful new software is written all the time, and the fact that useful new software is written does not make useful old software disappear. I believe the problem is not that less people are interested in Debian's core infrastructure; the problem is that less people are interested in *Debian*. We need to work on that. As we say in Dutch, stilstaan is achteruitgaan -- standing still is the same as going backwards -- and the number of DDs has not been going up for quite a while now. Do you have any idea how do sensibilize our new blood for the fact that new packages doesn't help Debian if our Core stuff is diminishing? I know that this is not exactly within the power of the DPL, but do you think that you, as DPL, can help speeding up Core development again? Given the above, I believe the most important task ahead of us is making Debian more attractive for users and prospective contributors; that is what I intend to work on. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
