Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Margarita Manterola]

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:47 PM Brian Gupta 
wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 7:45 AM Steve McIntyre  wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 09:41:33AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:
> > >As an example of a voting options that I am considering ad that does not
> > >fit with your proposals above, I would very likely vote for you above
> > >NOTA for a pure DPL election, and I would very likely vote in favour of
> > >a GR option to create a Debian Foundation. I would however rank you
> > >below NOTA if you insisted in conflating the two, as I cannot endorse
> > >what I see as a misuse of our voting system. You would however
> > >incorrectly interpret my vote as a vote against the idea of a Debian
> > >Foundation, underestimating support for something you care about.
> >
> > I hate to just say "me too" on a thread like this, but Enrico has
> > totally captured my thinking here.
> >
> > "Me too".
>

I'll add my "Me too" here as well. I think I'm in favour of the Debian
Foundation (although I'd like to be more informed about this). But I'm
definitely NOT in favor of co-opting the DPL election to vote for it,
because you dislike GRs.  I intend to vote for you below NOTA because of
this reason, not because I don't think exploring the Debian Foundation idea
is worth the time.


> Thank you both. I appreciate the feedback and understand that you will
> vote for
> what you believe is best for the project. I am largely running to start
> setting
> up Debian Foundations as a DPL. If you can support that, please vote for
> me. If
> you don't want me to work on establishing these Foundations, or don't want
> me
> to be DPL, rank others above me. I'll totally understand. DPL elections are
> what they are.
>

How can we tell you that we do want to explore the Foundation idea, but we
don't want to have a DPL that's not taking care of the rest of the DPL
responsibilities? I want a DPL that sets a vision for the project, that
helps developers find a common cause for collaborating and moving the
project ahead. It doesn't seem that this is your goal and so I don't feel
comfortable voting for you above NOTA.

-- 
Besos,
Marga

Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Brian Gupta]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 7:45 AM Steve McIntyre  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 09:41:33AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:
> >
> >As an example of a voting options that I am considering ad that does not
> >fit with your proposals above, I would very likely vote for you above
> >NOTA for a pure DPL election, and I would very likely vote in favour of
> >a GR option to create a Debian Foundation. I would however rank you
> >below NOTA if you insisted in conflating the two, as I cannot endorse
> >what I see as a misuse of our voting system. You would however
> >incorrectly interpret my vote as a vote against the idea of a Debian
> >Foundation, underestimating support for something you care about.
>
> I hate to just say "me too" on a thread like this, but Enrico has
> totally captured my thinking here.
>
> "Me too".

Thank you both. I appreciate the feedback and understand that you will vote for
what you believe is best for the project. I am largely running to start setting
up Debian Foundations as a DPL. If you can support that, please vote for me. If
you don't want me to work on establishing these Foundations, or don't want me
to be DPL, rank others above me. I'll totally understand. DPL elections are
what they are.

Cheers,
Brian

> --
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
> "Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
>  whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are 
> forecast."
>  Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html
>


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Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Steve McIntyre]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 09:41:33AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:
>
>As an example of a voting options that I am considering ad that does not
>fit with your proposals above, I would very likely vote for you above
>NOTA for a pure DPL election, and I would very likely vote in favour of
>a GR option to create a Debian Foundation. I would however rank you
>below NOTA if you insisted in conflating the two, as I cannot endorse
>what I see as a misuse of our voting system. You would however
>incorrectly interpret my vote as a vote against the idea of a Debian
>Foundation, underestimating support for something you care about.

I hate to just say "me too" on a thread like this, but Enrico has
totally captured my thinking here.

"Me too".

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html

Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Enrico Zini]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 08:53:13PM -0400, Brian Gupta wrote:

> I will reiterate this before the election, but people do have choices when 
> voting. 
> 
> 1) If you want Foundations, and want me as DPL, please rank me the highest.
> 
> 2) If you want Foundations, but don't want me as DPL, please just put your 
> favorite candidate(s) above me, but please do place me above "None of the 
> Above".
> 
> 3) If you don't want Debian Foundations rank me below "None of the Above". 
> 
> The only option I am asking people not to consider is electing me as DPL 
> without a mandate to work on the Foundations. If you are opposed to the
> formation of Debian Formations, I'd ask that you please rank me below
> "None of the Above".

I am very uncomfortable with the idea of embedding a GR vote in the
relative placement of options in a DPL elections.

I would like to rank people in a DPL election based on how I would like
people to be DPL. That is what I understand our voting system is
supposed to do, and what in my experience it has been doing reasonably
well.

I fear that piggybacking extra meaning into it as you seem to propose,
would compromise the quality of the results both of the foundations GR
embedded in the election, and in the DPL election itself.

As an example of a voting options that I am considering ad that does not
fit with your proposals above, I would very likely vote for you above
NOTA for a pure DPL election, and I would very likely vote in favour of
a GR option to create a Debian Foundation. I would however rank you
below NOTA if you insisted in conflating the two, as I cannot endorse
what I see as a misuse of our voting system. You would however
incorrectly interpret my vote as a vote against the idea of a Debian
Foundation, underestimating support for something you care about.


Enrico

-- 
GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini 


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Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Luke Faraone]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:53 PM Brian Gupta  wrote:
> I will reiterate this before the election, but people do have choices when
> voting.
>
> 1) If you want Foundations, and want me as DPL, please rank me the highest.
>
> 2) If you want Foundations, but don't want me as DPL, please just put your
> favorite candidate(s) above me, but please do place me above "None of the
> Above".
>
> 3) If you don't want Debian Foundations rank me below "None of the Above".

Concurring with zigo and others: I don't think the DPL election should
be a substitute for a GR. If you want a foundation, gain consensus and
propose a GR, but I won't evaluate DPL candidates on that basis.

-- 
Luke Faraone;; Debian & Ubuntu Developer; Sugar Labs; MIT SIPB
lfaraone on irc.[freenode,oftc].net -- https://luke.wf/ohhello
PGP fprint: 8C82 3DED 10AA 8041 639E  1210 5ACE 8D6E 0C14 A470

Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Brian Gupta]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 9:43 AM Thomas Goirand  wrote:

> On 3/17/20 4:10 AM, Brian Gupta wrote:
> > 1) By making it my platform, it should be a much lighter-weight method
> >for people to express their opinions than a GR. If this proves
> >contentious, I can always withdraw my candidacy rather than push
> >through a tough vote that splits the community. (In this case, I'd
> >rather back off and take however long it takes to build a rough
> >consensus.)
> > 
> > 2) I don't believe a GR is needed, as my current plan doesn't require
> >any changes to the constitution
> > 
> > 3) As I alluded, it would really only be practical with the explicit
> >support of the DPL.  Being DPL would guarantee that support.
> > 
> > 4) It gives project members options on how they vote. If I am elected
> >DPL, that would likely be a clear sign the project supports my
> >proposal. If I was ranked below "None of the above", that's another
> >clear message. Finally, if most people ranked me above "None of the
> >above, even if I wasn't first choice, I'd assume that as a signal of
> >support for the proposal and would try to work with the elected DPL
> >to implement the proposal.
>
> Brian,
>
> Thanks for bringing the topic of a Debian foundation, and highlighting
> the past problems with SPI (I kind of was shocked to read about the
> paypal account, I somehow missed what happened...).
>

If I wrote it in a way that you found shocking, I did not intend for it to 
be. SPI raised a valid concern when looked at from the point of view of an 
organization that is home for over 40 projects. They wouldn't be doing 
their jobs if they continued to allow a single project special-treatment. 

When I first heard about their concerns, I couldn't understand why SPI felt 
the need to make the change, considering the long history between Debian 
and SPI. As time passed, I came to understand SPI's point of view and came
to agree, and expect that if I had been in their role, I would have ended up
with the same thoughts.

I regret, that to some, this appears to be an SPI vs Debian debate. It is 
not. I expect the relationship between SPI to continue into the indefinite
future.

This is about the fact that Debian has needs that require "special-casing",
that will be difficult to fulfill from an organization that isn't singularly
focused on Debian.

> Sorry for this, but I very much don't think it's a good idea to mix a a
> DPL election, and assume that people's votes will reflect their will to
> setup a foundation or not. Maybe a lot of people will prefer candidate X
> or Y before you, but will still would like to move ahead with the
> foundation idea. The same way, some may like you, but may not like the
> foundation thing.
>
> Moreover, as this is the main thing if your platform, we don't have a
> clue about the rest of your intentions, and how you see the DPL job.
>
> I would have very much prefer if you had discuss this as a separate
> topic, and made sure that the next future DPL would support you, or if
> you nominated yourself for the DPL election, and voiced your intend to
> make a GR about creating a foundation (but not make it the only topic of
> your platform).
>
> Anyway, thanks for this topic again, and I really hope you make the
> foundation thing happen, being the DPL or not. :)
>

I will reiterate this before the election, but people do have choices when 
voting. 

1) If you want Foundations, and want me as DPL, please rank me the highest.

2) If you want Foundations, but don't want me as DPL, please just put your 
favorite candidate(s) above me, but please do place me above "None of the 
Above".

3) If you don't want Debian Foundations rank me below "None of the Above". 

The only option I am asking people not to consider is electing me as DPL 
without a mandate to work on the Foundations. If you are opposed to the
formation of Debian Formations, I'd ask that you please rank me below
"None of the Above".

Cheers,
Brian
On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 9:43 AM Thomas Goirand  wrote:On 3/17/20 4:10 AM, Brian Gupta wrote:
> 1) By making it my platform, it should be a much lighter-weight method
>    for people to express their opinions than a GR. If this proves
>    contentious, I can always withdraw my candidacy rather than push
>    through a tough vote that splits the community. (In this case, I'd
>    rather back off and take however long it takes to build a rough
>    consensus.)
> 
> 2) I don't believe a GR is needed, as my current plan doesn't require
>    any changes to the constitution
> 
> 3) As I alluded, it would really only be practical with the explicit
>    support of the DPL.  Being DPL would guarantee that support.
> 
> 4) It gives project members options on how they vote. If I am elected
>    DPL, that would likely be a clear sign the project supports my
>    proposal. If I was ranked below "None of the above", that's another
>    clear message. Finally, if 

Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 09:47:25PM +0800, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> * Thomas Goirand  [2020-03-19 14:43]:
> > highlighting the past problems with SPI (I kind of was shocked to
> > read about the paypal account, I somehow missed what happened...).
> 
> I think this might be a misunderstanding.
> 
> SPI does not want get rid of PayPal.
> 
> The problem is that there is one SPI PayPal account for Debian and one
> SPI PayPal account for all other SPI projects.  This kind of special
> casing for Debian is something SPI would like to resolve in some way;
> there are no plans of removing PayPal.
> 
> (I don't speak for SPI, etc)

Indeed, the comments regarding paypal are a gross (in my view)
mischaracterization in Brian's platform. See [1] for what I prevsiouly
wrote on that topic.  His other comments aren't entirely accurate,
either (in my view).

Sam's comments regarding legal representation and insurance for project
leaders are more on-point: we are working on the former and have not
discussed the latter.

[1]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2020/03/msg00021.html

-- 
Luca Filipozzi

Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Thomas Goirand  [2020-03-19 14:43]:
> highlighting the past problems with SPI (I kind of was shocked to
> read about the paypal account, I somehow missed what happened...).

I think this might be a misunderstanding.

SPI does not want get rid of PayPal.

The problem is that there is one SPI PayPal account for Debian and one
SPI PayPal account for all other SPI projects.  This kind of special
casing for Debian is something SPI would like to resolve in some way;
there are no plans of removing PayPal.

(I don't speak for SPI, etc)
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Thomas Goirand]

On 3/17/20 4:10 AM, Brian Gupta wrote:
> 1) By making it my platform, it should be a much lighter-weight method
>for people to express their opinions than a GR. If this proves
>contentious, I can always withdraw my candidacy rather than push
>through a tough vote that splits the community. (In this case, I'd
>rather back off and take however long it takes to build a rough
>consensus.)
> 
> 2) I don't believe a GR is needed, as my current plan doesn't require
>any changes to the constitution
> 
> 3) As I alluded, it would really only be practical with the explicit
>support of the DPL.  Being DPL would guarantee that support.
> 
> 4) It gives project members options on how they vote. If I am elected
>DPL, that would likely be a clear sign the project supports my
>proposal. If I was ranked below "None of the above", that's another
>clear message. Finally, if most people ranked me above "None of the
>above, even if I wasn't first choice, I'd assume that as a signal of
>support for the proposal and would try to work with the elected DPL
>to implement the proposal.

Brian,

Thanks for bringing the topic of a Debian foundation, and highlighting
the past problems with SPI (I kind of was shocked to read about the
paypal account, I somehow missed what happened...).

Sorry for this, but I very much don't think it's a good idea to mix a a
DPL election, and assume that people's votes will reflect their will to
setup a foundation or not. Maybe a lot of people will prefer candidate X
or Y before you, but will still would like to move ahead with the
foundation idea. The same way, some may like you, but may not like the
foundation thing.

Moreover, as this is the main thing if your platform, we don't have a
clue about the rest of your intentions, and how you see the DPL job.

I would have very much prefer if you had discuss this as a separate
topic, and made sure that the next future DPL would support you, or if
you nominated yourself for the DPL election, and voiced your intend to
make a GR about creating a foundation (but not make it the only topic of
your platform).

Anyway, thanks for this topic again, and I really hope you make the
foundation thing happen, being the DPL or not. :)

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

Re: Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Brian Gupta]

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 05:53:08PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Brian:
> 
> I've just read your platform.
> For reasons that are slightly different than the ones you state, I tend
> to agree that  setting up foundations sounds like a good idea.
> And I think you have a significant chunk of the background to lead that
> effort.
> 
> As an individual (read after my DPL term expires) I'd be very likely to
> sponsor a GR as a referendum on this idea and even include text
> delegating making it happen to you.
> 
> But I can't figure out why you'd need or want to be DPL to do that.

As you correctly noted, this work technically doesn't require one to be
DPL, but it would certainly help, and would at least require support from
the current DPL.

I chose this path for a number of reasons:

1) By making it my platform, it should be a much lighter-weight method
   for people to express their opinions than a GR. If this proves
   contentious, I can always withdraw my candidacy rather than push
   through a tough vote that splits the community. (In this case, I'd
   rather back off and take however long it takes to build a rough
   consensus.)

2) I don't believe a GR is needed, as my current plan doesn't require
   any changes to the constitution

3) As I alluded, it would really only be practical with the explicit
   support of the DPL.  Being DPL would guarantee that support.

4) It gives project members options on how they vote. If I am elected
   DPL, that would likely be a clear sign the project supports my
   proposal. If I was ranked below "None of the above", that's another
   clear message. Finally, if most people ranked me above "None of the
   above, even if I wasn't first choice, I'd assume that as a signal of
   support for the proposal and would try to work with the elected DPL
   to implement the proposal.
 
> How would you handle the aspects of being DPL that are not related to
> setting up a foundation?

I would try to be unsurprising when it comes to routine matters, like
appointing delegations and approving expenses. If I am unsure about the
best course, I will solicit advice both privately and, where warranted,
publically.

Where appropriate I would rely on delegates and other project members. 
e.g. - I'm not the greatest public speaker, and would leave technical
decisions to the folks working on the features they want to see, and 
if there are any unresolved disputes I trust the Technical Committee
and chair to resolve them.

> You talk about bringing back a DPL helpers team.
> What would that give us that we don't have today?

I found participating on Zack and Lucas's DPL-helpers teams rewarding,
and it gave me insight into some of Debian's big picture issues.

Although I have a technical background, my day-to-day work, is as a 
technical manager, so I found DPL-helpers an interesting path to
contribute that wasn't purely technical or overly specialized. I'd hope
to offer such a contribution path to others would might have similar
backgrounds.

If elected DPL, I would invite the other DPL candidates to join that
team as I do believe it provided good exposure for those considering
running for DPL.

> How would you lead over the next year in areas unrelated to  setting up
> the foundation?

Largely, I'd let people do what they do, and be there to help unblock
them if they need resources, or other support. I don't have a major
short term agenda, outside of the Foundations that could be accomplished
in a single term, and there are laundry lists of tasks/projects a DPL
might take on. For example, here's an old list, I collected as a 
DPL-helper. [1] 

I am fairly certain that working on the Foundations, and taking care
of routine matters, will keep me plenty busy. If I were to try and
expand the goals, they would likely prove unreachable.

> What do you think the big challenges that the DPL will face that are
> unrelated to the foundation/administrative matters will be in 2020?

All indications are that 2020 is going to be a trying year for
everyone. We'll all be dealing with existential challenges, and I'm
not sure how this will impact the project, but I'm certain it's won't
be negligible.

Everyone is anxious and I believe that that everyone in the project,
including and perhaps especially the DPL, will need to be especially
empathetic to our colleagues and friends in our Debian family.

[1] - https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL/Ideas


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Question to Brian: Why do you need to be DPL to set up foundations?

[Sam Hartman]

Dear Brian:

I've just read your platform.
For reasons that are slightly different than the ones you state, I tend
to agree that  setting up foundations sounds like a good idea.
And I think you have a significant chunk of the background to lead that
effort.

As an individual (read after my DPL term expires) I'd be very likely to
sponsor a GR as a referendum on this idea and even include text
delegating making it happen to you.

But I can't figure out why you'd need or want to be DPL to do that.

How would you handle the aspects of being DPL that are not related to
setting up a foundation?


You talk about bringing back a DPL helpers team.
What would that give us that we don't have today?


How would you lead over the next year in areas unrelated to  setting up
the foundation?

What do you think the big challenges that the DPL will face that are
unrelated to the foundation/administrative matters will be in 2020?


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