Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 11:48:18AM +0200, Christian Kastner wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > I overlooked this the first time, but > > On 2024-03-29 16:03, Thomas Goirand wrote: > > FYI, if I didn't go forward with the project, that we've been discussing > > with Jonathan over at least 3 years, is because I have no idea where to > > host it. I have clearly stated that having this hosted at *my* company > > (ie: Infomaniak) is *not* what I want to do to avoid any type of > > conflict of interest. I am staying firm with the idea that I shouldn't > > do that. > I understand your position morally but from a practical POV, speaking as > someone who's currently hosting servers in his living room, any hosting > option would be an improvement to me and one with by a Debian Project > Member even more so. > > And strictly speaking (1) I don't see a conflict of interest and (2) > even if there were one, these can be disclosed and dealt with. Hosting > isn't that opaque. > +1 -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
Hi Thomas, I overlooked this the first time, but On 2024-03-29 16:03, Thomas Goirand wrote: > FYI, if I didn't go forward with the project, that we've been discussing > with Jonathan over at least 3 years, is because I have no idea where to > host it. I have clearly stated that having this hosted at *my* company > (ie: Infomaniak) is *not* what I want to do to avoid any type of > conflict of interest. I am staying firm with the idea that I shouldn't > do that. I understand your position morally but from a practical POV, speaking as someone who's currently hosting servers in his living room, any hosting option would be an improvement to me and one with by a Debian Project Member even more so. And strictly speaking (1) I don't see a conflict of interest and (2) even if there were one, these can be disclosed and dealt with. Hosting isn't that opaque. Best, Christian
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
On 2024/04/10 16:08, Felix Lechner wrote: On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 13:57:55 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: every single hardware request over the last 4 years (whether from DSA or from a DD) has been approved. Mine wasn't, although I probably didn't follow the proper procedure. I just wrote a private email to Jonathan. His response is below. I'm not going to re-hash what I previously said, it's all on record from the 2022 DPL election period: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/bdc81fe2-4490-a839-27b4-e610de369...@debian.org After which, you lost to NOTA and then rage quit Debian, and now, two years later, you're still bitter that you didn't get an SSD that you never bothered to file a request for. There comes a time where you need to know that it's time to let it go. -Jonathan
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
Hi, On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 13:57:55 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: > every single hardware request over the last 4 years (whether from DSA > or from a DD) has been approved. Mine wasn't, although I probably didn't follow the proper procedure. I just wrote a private email to Jonathan. His response is below. Jonathan's reference to DAM was an interesting slip; I believe he meant DSA. I answered Jonathan's question from November 5, 2021, an hour later. I then sent a gentle reminder on February 3, 2022. Jonathan did not respond to either. After a public mention on this list [1] another seven weeks later, I eventually received a friendly message from a member of the treasurer team on April 5, 2022. The author "wonder[ed] if we can prepare an action plan somehow." The message further stated that "I hope Debian can reimburse you ASAP." None of the responses included the "pre-appoval" necessary according to step two in the documentation. [2] The point is now moot. Thanks! Kind regards Felix P.S. I do not subscribe to this mailing list. [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2022/03/msg00212.html [2] https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL/Reimbursement * * * Delivered-To: felix.lech...@gmail.com Received: by 2002:ac9:130d:0:0:0:0:0 with SMTP id d13csp659255occ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 11:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyW0FjabyPnELL54pba39yRNCKzDObyZjunDs88YhG6F2Zw2bG5tSI3TsjDMy//OIoQFRdn X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:312:: with SMTP id 18mr32421223pje.178.1636138383229; Fri, 05 Nov 2021 11:53:03 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1636138383; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=IPHdRC1wI7E4UzbJfapk/b5DNTn1NoFN9CoVMIhiGLM7DVPdb2ZYm2NZn6oB3z3dFi 4YF5sAwgjkk4zQvK+JPrvj2bk48HlQR98qB2cjMQ0jONR+ELnjUovKcNijyxD6mduDQ+ +pJ9j0gRsv+d97MXo02wAUwtyUzBS1WK2K6zhArToSQOyX0WZQ1wMxRfCWZjor44cQZG BeJzHA0Oo+YQyR7qlxAYWEb3nHf+IxHPwsapZ5hgs+fAyZx6NPW9iqfHPxqjNj8Ymb4W s7Wj9oWr0eH5PE7Agk/AMoKRW8td3H3SSUuhMWtGWwQwh9t6QvSOzFOO2AjsIPGREahf krQg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:organization:from:references :to:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :dkim-signature:dkim-signature; bh=VTz2pGh3ePjzKg8f6nlMMQkZnVWZwR7w1LvBlybjmds=; b=jnjQy3kTDVAGaZsiwy6jt3tA0o6q7AVFrRAzbW4eY7HKuKTvbkYjvFO4AKeUVxZYyC 5/zcSgTfx19TUVoyKi9a8tzQpaWOOmvVEhf0hVBAGHvxBD8S5RbbMdc0hMiG/YI+ptjz g+VxTDIQGh3KW3eF8WX9FnJ1OVNxL++/Y/W75VoMT69hDPi+LiPzfpEKqDyr/fRXdquM ht2w3Xn6dpCYZyTL5fgk8PXWPSZoRM6vWTXTUf8WDiQYpXeatrPwiSrm4uY4F4mhrU2X u2qEyzXZ+Ls5DAeg6SiWJ1J0b4B3xQkx02xpIJbG8uwwNUi99JzgpksID9BgKnfsdLQa 8uVw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@debian.org header.s=2017.lechner.user header.b=BoWnqNsl; dkim=neutral (no key) header.i=@debian.org header.s=2020.lechner.user; spf=neutral (google.com: 2a0b:ae40:2:4a0b::1 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of j...@debian.org) smtp.mailfrom=j...@debian.org Return-Path: Received: from letbox-vps.us-core.com (letbox-vps.us-core.com. [2a0b:ae40:2:4a0b::1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c24si17776066pgn.435.2021.11.05.11.53.03 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 05 Nov 2021 11:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 2a0b:ae40:2:4a0b::1 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of j...@debian.org) client-ip=2a0b:ae40:2:4a0b::1; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@debian.org header.s=2017.lechner.user header.b=BoWnqNsl; dkim=neutral (no key) header.i=@debian.org header.s=2020.lechner.user; spf=neutral (google.com: 2a0b:ae40:2:4a0b::1 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of j...@debian.org) smtp.mailfrom=j...@debian.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=2017.lechner.user; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: From:References:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=VTz2pGh3ePjzKg8f6nlMMQkZnVWZwR7w1LvBlybjmds=; b=BoWnqNsldUqNQwz7n03KOAxX8Y PjOWqYCO9R/zL+PML69G2OldGdqpo7DU7DIRO3xcUTlttA3CD9x0kn1vRt0zbmYMl9RRNfYPr/fDQ H8uF4kIcfmR5uNvs67ufnFZUJNn840qY1bR4lUd5zofaRI5AyFw/RYif7en8cG2JYtCE=; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=2020.lechner.user; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:From:References:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Sender: Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sen
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
On 27/03/24 04:54, Thomas Goirand wrote: Hi, As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it? From Jonathan's mail, I think we do not have too much money unused now. Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian? As I mentioned in some previous questions, I would be interested to hear about ideas to make good use of our money. But I would not be taking decisions on spending "big" amount of money without much discussion within the Debian community. Based on some experience we had in our Free Software Community of India, I have learned that hosting services is a task that require good amount of effort and time for maintenance. If we do not have a enough volunteers to handle them, it will result in burnout and eventually the services die. Let us take up this topic after the elections (if I become the DPL) and evaluate the pros and cons before committing. Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of things. Generally speaking, spending on hardware in my opinion is a good investment. Jonathan in his mail mentioned that some amount of money was spent recently for hardwares by DSA. So let us revisit this request later, discuss with DSA and decide. OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
On 3/27/24 08:51, Andreas Tille wrote: Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian? While I personally have no use case for this I'm perfectly open for spending money on this and love to discuss this either on debian-project or debian-private (if private discussion seems to be appropriate). However, I see an important requirement to consider this money well spent: We need a team who cares for the maintenance of this cloud. I do not think that we can simply add to the workload of DSA. And I want it to be a real team and not a 1-person team. Quickly, because I do not want to dive too much in the topic. Adding workload to DSA isn't the plan. I also have other persons that raised their hands as volunteers. Let's discuss this after the vote ! :) Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
On 3/27/24 11:25, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: Hi, Thomas Goirand wrote on 27/03/2024 at 00:24:30+0100: Hi, As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it? Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian? Please, let's take some time to think about the implications of spending a shitload of money to buy hardware that we wouldn't know where to host, and that would require a load of maintenance and time. FYI, if I didn't go forward with the project, that we've been discussing with Jonathan over at least 3 years, is because I have no idea where to host it. I have clearly stated that having this hosted at *my* company (ie: Infomaniak) is *not* what I want to do to avoid any type of conflict of interest. I am staying firm with the idea that I shouldn't do that. Though if anyone has a clue where we should do it, we can open such a discussion (yeah, after the vote: my question was if Andrea was happy with this type of project, not how and where we should to it). Since I have failed to find where to host, maybe I should open the topic with a wider audience, in the hope to have some suggestions. So, let's not get further on this topic and let's reopen it soon. If any discussion should arise on these matters, I'd rather them to occur not as a platform for a DPL candidate but after a reasonable discussion with the concerned parties, eg, DSA. No. The DSA people have already stated multiple times that they do not want to be integrated in such a project. Let's do this without them if this is still the case. If you asked me, I'd say I would regret not to do it with the DSA, but it's entirely their call, and it's also probably good to try not to be overloaded with complicated clusters like OpenStack. Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of things? Same, with slightly less concern regarding hardware volume and maintenance. Yeah, DSA and other teams (ports maintainers?) should be involved. From a DD perspective, it's just very annoying to have to wait days, and sometimes even weeks, to have a package built on all arch. IMO, we should address this, in some way or another. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
Hi! On 2024/03/27 12:25, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian? > Please, let's take some time to think about the implications of spending a shitload of money to buy hardware that we wouldn't know where to host, and that would require a load of maintenance and time. If any discussion should arise on these matters, I'd rather them to occur not as a platform for a DPL candidate but after a reasonable discussion with the concerned parties, eg, DSA. I'm trying not to respond to too many mails here because I don't want to take away too much attention from the candidates, but I also don't think we have a problem of money heaping up anymore. Across the project, our financial needs are mostly met, and it helps having some reserve cash for a rainy day. Also on the DSA front, they have just filed a request two weeks ago for upgrades at UBC in the range of $110-$160k, so it's not like we're spending nothing on hardware either! Also, every single hardware request over the last 4 years (whether from DSA or from a DD) has been approved. I hope that's something that our new DPL will continue doing so for every reasonable request going forward as well! -Jonathan
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
Hi, Thomas Goirand wrote on 27/03/2024 at 00:24:30+0100: > Hi, > > As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account > for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it? > > Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian > cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, > but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where > to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this > idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian? Please, let's take some time to think about the implications of spending a shitload of money to buy hardware that we wouldn't know where to host, and that would require a load of maintenance and time. If any discussion should arise on these matters, I'd rather them to occur not as a platform for a DPL candidate but after a reasonable discussion with the concerned parties, eg, DSA. > Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that > the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they > would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of > things? Same, with slightly less concern regarding hardware volume and maintenance. > For some packages of mine, the current shared runners are too slow to > even run time-based tests of openvswitch for example... What about the > Salsa CI? Couldn't we pay some cloud providers to have faster shared > runners? It wouldn't be hard to hook them. -- PEB signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
Hi Thomas, Am Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:24:30AM +0100 schrieb Thomas Goirand: > As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account for > Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it? While I admit that I'm not well informed about the status of the acount currently I'm perfectly open to interesting suggestsions. In general I think donators want to see their money spent for the progress of Debian and not for filling up some bank account. > Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, > for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never > went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so > on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd > be useful for Debian? While I personally have no use case for this I'm perfectly open for spending money on this and love to discuss this either on debian-project or debian-private (if private discussion seems to be appropriate). However, I see an important requirement to consider this money well spent: We need a team who cares for the maintenance of this cloud. I do not think that we can simply add to the workload of DSA. And I want it to be a real team and not a 1-person team. > Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that the > reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they would like. > Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of things? I'd happily spent money on infrastructure we really need which includes buildd and reproducible builds. I'm also fine with stregthening Debci and Salsa CI if needed. But also here the question is: Just permitting the usage of money is one thing. We also need people to do the actual grunt work of buying, installing and maintaining the hardware. If this is granted I'm perfectly fine with it. > For some packages of mine, the current shared runners are too slow to even > run time-based tests of openvswitch for example... What about the Salsa CI? As I mentioned above I'm happy to make Salsa CI more performant. > Couldn't we pay some cloud providers to have faster shared runners? It > wouldn't be hard to hook them. Paying some cloud providers to host shared runners for us might be one answer to my requirement that there are actual people who care and not only money thrown at some hardware. It needs to be well thought / discussed what services can be delegated to some cloud providers and what needs to be Debian hosted. For Salsa CI I do not see any constraints since its just building publicly accessible code. Kind regards Andreas. -- https://fam-tille.de
Question to all candidates: what to do with the Debian money, shall we invest in hardware and cloud?
Hi, As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it? Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian? Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of things? For some packages of mine, the current shared runners are too slow to even run time-based tests of openvswitch for example... What about the Salsa CI? Couldn't we pay some cloud providers to have faster shared runners? It wouldn't be hard to hook them. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) P.S: To other DDs reading: feel free to voice your opinion too.
