Re: Question to all candidates: How would you enforce Debian Community Guidelines?
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 01:40:44AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 05:26:36PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 06:47:13PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > > However, as one of my initial actions as DPL, I do intend to submit a > > > post to debian-devel-announce with a set of guidelines for people to > > > follow when flamewars happen (and when they don't, in order to avoid > > > them). > > Why is sending such a mail conditional on you being elected DPL? > > How would the content of this mail differ from such a mail if you sent it as > > non-DPL, and why? > "Hi, I'm J. Random Developer, and I encourage all of you to abide by > these rules" > vs > "Hi, I'm the DPL, and I encourage all of you to abide by these rules" > I don't think the former would work very well; but I believe the latter > could. I don't think either would work very well. I could be mistaken, but I think that would be unfortunate, because that would only reinforce the idea of doing what the DPL says because he's the DPL instead of because he's made a persuasive case. So the only change you would make to the content when sending such a message as DPL vs. a normal developer would be "Hi, I'm the DPL"? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question to all candidates: How would you enforce Debian Community Guidelines?
On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 05:26:36PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 06:47:13PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > > However, as one of my initial actions as DPL, I do intend to submit a > > post to debian-devel-announce with a set of guidelines for people to > > follow when flamewars happen (and when they don't, in order to avoid > > them). > > Why is sending such a mail conditional on you being elected DPL? > > How would the content of this mail differ from such a mail if you sent it as > non-DPL, and why? Consider "Hi, I'm J. Random Developer, and I encourage all of you to abide by these rules" vs "Hi, I'm the DPL, and I encourage all of you to abide by these rules" I don't think the former would work very well; but I believe the latter could. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question to all candidates: How would you enforce Debian Community Guidelines?
On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 06:47:13PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: > However, as one of my initial actions as DPL, I do intend to submit a > post to debian-devel-announce with a set of guidelines for people to > follow when flamewars happen (and when they don't, in order to avoid > them). Why is sending such a mail conditional on you being elected DPL? How would the content of this mail differ from such a mail if you sent it as non-DPL, and why? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question to all candidates: How would you enforce Debian Community Guidelines?
Hi Hector, On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 05:55:35PM +0100, Hector Oron wrote: [...] > Secondly, I was wondering how Debian could make it easier for people > to contribute than other (derivatives and non-derivatives) > distributions. I came up with a really nice draft howto[1] When you say "I came up with", I presume you actually mean "I found"? "I came up with" means so much as saying "I wrote", which would be wrong in this context (I believe enrico wrote it, not you). At any rate, I was aware of this document; and while I believe it to be somewhat verbose, I do agree with the general gist of it. That is, while there might be details that I have a different opinion on, I do think it's a good thing for people to read and to base their actions on. In your subject line you ask how I would 'enforce' the dcg. My answer on that one could be short; I would not, since it is not an official document that needs to be enforced. However, as one of my initial actions as DPL, I do intend to submit a post to debian-devel-announce with a set of guidelines for people to follow when flamewars happen (and when they don't, in order to avoid them). It would not be something that I intend to "enforce" in any way (I do not believe in punitive action except in the most exceptional of circumstances), but it would describe the way that I already try to behave, and the way that I would encourage others to behave as well. This would reproduce some of the (IMO) more useful suggestions from the dcg augmented with some of my own suggestions. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question to all candidates: How would you enforce Debian Community Guidelines?
Le Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 05:55:35PM +0100, Hector Oron a écrit : > Hello, > > First of all congrats to all candidates and thanks for stepping up > for doing this task. > > Secondly, I was wondering how Debian could make it easier for people > to contribute than other (derivatives and non-derivatives) > distributions. I came up with a really nice draft howto[1] which I > would like to bring up to your attention, so the basic question would > be what do you think you could do to make contributions paths easier > (take in account not all teams, groups follow such community > guidelines) > > Kind regards and good luck ! :-) > > [1] http://people.debian.org/~enrico/dcg/ Dear Hector, this is a very interesting reading that I overlooked. I see it more like a turorial than a document to refer to when commenting about other person's behaviour. My main worry is that, the more complex the guidelines are, the more meta-discussion they generate if they are used as rules. Just see the quantity of traffic dedicated to complain about email carbon copies, for instance… (In theory, this particular problem has been solved smartly by Raphaël, but in pactice this update of our mailing lists's code of conduct is often ignored.) If I would have the time to propose a an additional section to Enrico's guidelines, it would be to warn against topical isolation. It is more fun, and we are stronger, when we collaborate in building interdependant works. When I started to involve myself in Debian, I wanted to create a ‘Debian-Biology’ effort but Andreas Tille convinced me to join Debian Med instead. I never regreted it. Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100326004144.ga19...@kunpuu.plessy.org
Re: Question to all candidates: How would you enforce Debian Community Guidelines?
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Hector Oron wrote: > Secondly, I was wondering how Debian could make it easier for people > to contribute than other (derivatives and non-derivatives) > distributions. I came up with a really nice draft howto[1] which I > would like to bring up to your attention, so the basic question would > be what do you think you could do to make contributions paths easier > (take in account not all teams, groups follow such community > guidelines) This was already mentioned on another thread. The Community Guidelines were drafted by Enrico. He doesn't want to enforce this as a Code of Conduct, they are just guidelines. I do like these Community Guidelines, and I think that zack's idea of asking people in NM to read them and agree to them is a good first step. I would like to make them more widely known, but I've sensed that there's a general anti-CoC feeling, so actively enforcing them might be hard. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e8bbf0361003251645s16f066edt56d1b7fe8b10...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Question to all candidates: How would you enforce Debian Community Guidelines?
Hi Héctor!
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 05:55:35PM +0100, Hector Oron wrote:
> First of all congrats to all candidates and thanks for stepping up
> for doing this task.
Thanks! :-)
> I came up with a really nice draft howto[1] which I would like to
> bring up to your attention, so the basic question would be what do you
> think you could do to make contributions paths easier (take in account
> not all teams, groups follow such community guidelines)
>
> [1] http://people.debian.org/~enrico/dcg/
Some of us have already discussed briefly Enrico's Debian Community
Guidelines in the "heated discussions" thread [1]. My main comment on
that [2] is as follows:
> [...] As an AM I've noticed that there is quite some margin of
> "coaching" in the NM process [...]
> That is a point where we might benefit from introducing some "good
> lectures" such as the Debian Community Guidelines (drafter by Enrico
> Zini), which we've really never tried. Having applicants read them,
> discuss them with their AM, and possibly sign them, will be a small
> step which we might start benefiting from a few years from now.
I've then observed in a different thread that I don't think community
guidelines should be enforced any further. I don't believe guidelines
should be used as sticks to beat others: they shape the project culture
and are most effective when peer pressure among the involved peers
refers to them.
Thanks for your question!
Cheers.
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/03/msg00058.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/03/msg00072.html
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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