Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Joel Aelwyn]

On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 12:21:05PM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Joel Aelwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> > Oooh! So the fact that I've shown up in it a few times means I'm part of
> > the Cabal now?
> 
> No, not by a large margin. I have a cabalometric experiment at
> .
> The rules: Each time DWN links to a mailing list post by you, you get
> 1000 brainshare points. Each time a new issue comes out, your score is
> multiplied by 0.96 and rounded down to an integer. This will make all
> of your 1000 points go away in two years if you don't replenish them.
>
> The list shows everybody who has more than 1000 points. You are not
> among them (except if my DWN-parsing script is broken), but MJ himself
> currently has 2661 points and a ranking of #30.

A. Damn. I'll have to go annoy more people or something. I doubt
I'd be on there even if it was mis-counting me due to the name change.

> The real inner-sanctum cabal of course consists of those who have
> ranked #1 at some time in DWN's publishing history. It consists of
> 
> Ben Collins, Marcus Brinkmann, Brian White, Wichert Akkerman, Ian
> Jackson, Joey Hess, Jason Gunthorpe, Martin Schulze, Richard Braakman,
> Anthony Towns, Branden Robinson and Steve Langasek.

A truly worth set of luminaries. Or at least torchieres...

> One could do similar computations with other multipliers than 0.96.
> The lower the multiplier, the more different people will have been #1
> sometime. One might estimate the probability that somebody is actually
> in the cabal as the highest multiplier that lands him in the inner
> sanctum. My own cabalicity is 59 %. :-)
> 
> > I really have to wonder what you'd have to do or who you'd have to annoy
> > to get blacklisted from DWN.
> 
> Indeed, who'd have thought that, say, Anthony and Branden would be
> co-leaders of the same cabal?

Who would have thought, indeed? Nobody, I'm *sure*...

*realigns the orbital mind control lasers*
-- 
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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Ean Schuessler]

I'm very sorry but attempting to measure cabal power by frequency of 
discussion in public news forums is obviously naive.

First and mostly because there is no cabal.

On Saturday 05 March 2005 06:21 am, Henning Makholm wrote:
> No, not by a large margin. I have a cabalometric experiment at
> .
> The rules: Each time DWN links to a mailing list post by you, you get
> 1000 brainshare points. Each time a new issue comes out, your score is
> multiplied by 0.96 and rounded down to an integer. This will make all
> of your 1000 points go away in two years if you don't replenish them.

-- 
Ean Schuessler, CTO
Brainfood, Inc.
http://www.brainfood.com


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Martin Schulze]

Andreas Barth wrote:
> Actually, if someone thinks something should be in DWN, sending a mail
> to [EMAIL PROTECTED] really helps. At least it helped for me everytime I 
> wanted to
> have something covered. I really consider your accusations against DWN
> harmful.

Not sure why DWN is being discussed on the -vote list, but the above
is even encouraged.  See http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/contributing

Regards,

Joey

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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Martin Schulze]

MJ Ray wrote:
> I may do that later, so for future: Does [EMAIL PROTECTED] have an archive?

Yes, it's on master:/home/debian/archive/debian-dwn and readable
by the Debian (800) group.

Regards,

Joey

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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Marcelo E. Magallon]

Hi,

 reading some of the replies MJ[0]'s post has received, I feel it's
 necessary to express my opinion on some of the points.  I wasn't going
 to at first in order to keep the noise down, but IMO some views and
 opinions expressed by DPL candidates have turned noise into signal.

On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 01:26:20AM +, MJ Ray wrote:

 > * Neither feels that the groups it reports on are their main
 >   audience.

 This might be a style issue or a perception issue, but I concur,
 nowadays I don't get the feeling that DWN is written _for_ developers
 even if most of topics deal with them.

 This has certainly changed over time and I don't recall it being always
 like this.  *My* recollection is that DWN started as a sort of "digest"
 which would allow concerned parties to notice a discussion that could
 otherwise have gone unnoticed.

 It's certainly entertaining reading sometimes.

 > * Any item included in either has to be sexy enough to match
 >   the red top and that means accuracy sometimes gets left out.
 > 
 > * They are not afraid to pull cunning stunts like reporting
 >   statements single-sourced from fairly new contributors as if
 >   it's a consensus view of a group, or "inflating" articles with
 >   inaccurate or irrelevant spin.

 This is my major gripe with DWN nowadays: it's not uncommon that it
 manages to find consensus where there's none!  "Uh?  We agreed on
 _that_?  Really?"

 Sometimes after having read a discussion through the week and then
 reading the digest that shows up in DWN I get the feeling that I was
 reading a different discussion.  It's the editor's prerogative, yes,
 but this feeling is much stronger with DWN than with, say, Kernel
 Traffic, perhaps only due to the fact that KT provides much more
 detailed views on a topic.

 > * They have friends who get puffed regularly, but "good news"
 >   stories about groups on the blacklist can get ignored and/or
 >   stuffed at the bottom of the issue.

 I wouldn't go as far as suspecting malice -- particularly after reading
 Martin's summary on how DWN gets out the door, but yes, it does
 sometimes read like that, too.

 > * The editors take the traditional approach of completely ignoring
 >   most criticism and either accusing the complainer or trying to
 >   game them in the broken system. There is no recommended route
 >   to seek clarification or retraction and those misrepresented
 >   or injured just have to punt.

 I *suspect* that whatever gets perceived as "flamebait" won't get
 airtime (which is in general a good thing).  Problem is that is seems
 as if the epidermic tissue has gotten thinner over the years and
 therefore the level for something to be perceived as flamebait
 (opposed to genuine, and probably valid, criticism) has dropped.

 But yes, I do get the feeling of some amount bias being present.  It is
 _my_ feeling so don't bother asking me to cross-reference it for you.

 Marcelo

 [0] Yes, I'm using MJ instead of something else, contrary to what I
 asked for on this very list recently.  That _is_ his nom the plum
 and MJ uses it consistently to the point of being known as MJ in
 this community.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Yes, it's the message about my first point, where Martin Schulze
> told me that in-project communication was never a goal of DWN.
> This exchange illustrates my fifth point: you do not know how
> DWN actually works and I don't think you can find out reliably.

I know perfectly well.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But one example *cannot* demonstrate your point. [...]

I was referring to DWN being one example of communication in debian.

> Nor, for that matter, does a Message-ID prove anything.  You can't say
> or remember what's in that message, can you?  

Yes, it's the message about my first point, where Martin Schulze
told me that in-project communication was never a goal of DWN.
This exchange illustrates my fifth point: you do not know how
DWN actually works and I don't think you can find out reliably.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If you cannot substantiate them publicly, then they are nothing more
> > than pissing in the wind.  
> 
> Get Message-Id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> that was sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if it matters that much to you. I
> don't have a copy here and I've not checked my copyright situation.
> 
> I'm sorry for putting too much emphasis on one example.

But one example *cannot* demonstrate your point.  DWN is not obligated
to publish everything, therefore the fact that a singular thing is not
published does not and cannot prove bias.

Nor, for that matter, does a Message-ID prove anything.  You can't say
or remember what's in that message, can you?  



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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you cannot substantiate them publicly, then they are nothing more
> than pissing in the wind.  

Get Message-Id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
that was sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if it matters that much to you. I
don't have a copy here and I've not checked my copyright situation.

I'm sorry for putting too much emphasis on one example.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Scripsit MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Interesting, but missing any measure of whether I'm being
> > kissed or kicked.
> If we are talking about the same publication, then neither. For all
> the time I have read DWN, its stories have consisted of neutral
> references to threads on the mailing lists, with no editorial opinion
> being expressed.

I think that view is widely considered untenable. For
example, "In reality it is not possible for journalists
to be neutral - regardless of whether we do or do not
overtly give our personal opinion, that opinion is
always reflected in the facts we choose to highlight or
ignore." http://www.medialens.org/homepage_more.html You'll
find similar things in many texts, but everyone can get that.

The best we can hope for is to know and observe the processes.

Thank you for the explanation of how to get references.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Maybe. Call it revenge if you want, but please consider whether
> > > there's truth behind them or how one can tell.
> > Your accusations are, as far as I can tell, entirely false.
> 
> Can you tell? I know at least one is definitely true. Please mail me
> off-list.

If you cannot substantiate them publicly, then they are nothing more
than pissing in the wind.  


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Interesting, but missing any measure of whether I'm being
> kissed or kicked.

If we are talking about the same publication, then neither. For all
the time I have read DWN, its stories have consisted of neutral
references to threads on the mailing lists, with no editorial opinion
being expressed.

> Can you cross-reference the stories?

No, but if you go to ~henning/brainshare/dwn on master and grep for
your name, you will find the issue numbers that your points originate
from.

-- 
Henning Makholm   "The great secret, known to internists and
 learned early in marriage by internists' wives, but
   still hidden from the general public, is that most things get
 better by themselves. Most things, in fact, are better by morning."


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Michael Banck]

On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 01:28:43PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The list shows everybody who has more than 1000 points. You are not
> > among them (except if my DWN-parsing script is broken), but MJ himself
> > currently has 2661 points and a ranking of #30.
> 
> Interesting, but missing any measure of whether I'm being
> kissed or kicked. Can you cross-reference the stories?

The cabal recognizes its peers.


Michael

-- 
Michael Banck
Debian Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The list shows everybody who has more than 1000 points. You are not
> among them (except if my DWN-parsing script is broken), but MJ himself
> currently has 2661 points and a ranking of #30.

Interesting, but missing any measure of whether I'm being
kissed or kicked. Can you cross-reference the stories?


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Joel Aelwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Oooh! So the fact that I've shown up in it a few times means I'm part of
> the Cabal now?

No, not by a large margin. I have a cabalometric experiment at
.
The rules: Each time DWN links to a mailing list post by you, you get
1000 brainshare points. Each time a new issue comes out, your score is
multiplied by 0.96 and rounded down to an integer. This will make all
of your 1000 points go away in two years if you don't replenish them.

The list shows everybody who has more than 1000 points. You are not
among them (except if my DWN-parsing script is broken), but MJ himself
currently has 2661 points and a ranking of #30.

The real inner-sanctum cabal of course consists of those who have
ranked #1 at some time in DWN's publishing history. It consists of

Ben Collins, Marcus Brinkmann, Brian White, Wichert Akkerman, Ian
Jackson, Joey Hess, Jason Gunthorpe, Martin Schulze, Richard Braakman,
Anthony Towns, Branden Robinson and Steve Langasek.

One could do similar computations with other multipliers than 0.96.
The lower the multiplier, the more different people will have been #1
sometime. One might estimate the probability that somebody is actually
in the cabal as the highest multiplier that lands him in the inner
sanctum. My own cabalicity is 59 %. :-)

> I really have to wonder what you'd have to do or who you'd have to annoy
> to get blacklisted from DWN.

Indeed, who'd have thought that, say, Anthony and Branden would be
co-leaders of the same cabal?

-- 
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  når der står et par nymfer
 i tyl og trikot i den lysegrønne skov!"

Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Maybe. Call it revenge if you want, but please consider whether
> > there's truth behind them or how one can tell.
> Your accusations are, as far as I can tell, entirely false.

Can you tell? I know at least one is definitely true. Please mail me
off-list.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Thomas Bushnell BSG]

MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Maybe. Call it revenge if you want, but please consider whether
> there's truth behind them or how one can tell.

Your accusations are, as far as I can tell, entirely false.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Andreas Barth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, if someone thinks something should be in DWN, sending a mail
> to [EMAIL PROTECTED] really helps.

It helps to get a reply a month later with inaccurate inflated rewrites.

> At least it helped for me everytime I wanted to have something covered.

I'm glad it worked for you.

> I really consider your accusations against DWN harmful.

Maybe. Call it revenge if you want, but please consider whether
there's truth behind them or how one can tell.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Andreas Barth]

* MJ Ray ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050304 12:55]:
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Scripsit MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > * They have friends who get puffed regularly, but "good news"
> > >   stories about groups on the blacklist can get ignored and/or
> > >   stuffed at the bottom of the issue.
> > Huh? Which "groups" do you perceive as being blacklisted by DWN? Could
> > it be that there are simply no readers of the relevant mailing lists
> > who regularly report news to the DWN editors?

> Yes, the lack of reporters is the direct problem, but I suggest
> that it is caused by the editorial bias against certain groups.

Actually, if someone thinks something should be in DWN, sending a mail
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] really helps. At least it helped for me everytime I wanted 
to
have something covered. I really consider your accusations against DWN
harmful.


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Joel Aelwyn]

On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 01:26:20AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
> 
> * They have friends who get puffed regularly, but "good news"
>   stories about groups on the blacklist can get ignored and/or
>   stuffed at the bottom of the issue.

Oooh! So the fact that I've shown up in it a few times means I'm part of
the Cabal now? Cool, where can I get my jacket insignia?

For those missing the irony: go search for any thread involving my email
and "ftpmaster", "new maintainer", "release process", at the very least...
I really have to wonder what you'd have to do or who you'd have to annoy
to get blacklisted from DWN. I mean, I can be downright annoying and
self-rightous at times, and I don't manage it... *what* does it take?
-- 
Joel Aelwyn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   ,''`.
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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[MJ Ray]

Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Scripsit MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > * Neither feels that the groups it reports on are their main
> >   audience.
> As far as I can see, the main audience of DWN is Debian developers,
> package maintainers, and other members of the community. This audience
> is exactly whom they report on.

That's what I thought, too. Yet, when I mentioned that DWN
wasn't working well for in-project communication, Martin
Schulze told me that was never a goal of DWN. This is partly
why I think the DPLs have to address internal communication,
as it's mostly ad-hoc and no-one notices until it fails hard.

[...]
> > * They have friends who get puffed regularly, but "good news"
> >   stories about groups on the blacklist can get ignored and/or
> >   stuffed at the bottom of the issue.
> Huh? Which "groups" do you perceive as being blacklisted by DWN? Could
> it be that there are simply no readers of the relevant mailing lists
> who regularly report news to the DWN editors?

Yes, the lack of reporters is the direct problem, but I suggest
that it is caused by the editorial bias against certain groups.
I'll let others enumerate groups they think don't get fair runs,
as I'm not going to continue the DWN debate now. It was a side
point, that debian-women were spending time imitating something
which is not good internal communication.

[...]
> > * The editors take the traditional approach of completely ignoring
> >   most criticism and either accusing the complainer or trying to
> >   game them in the broken system.
> Huh? This accusation demands to be substantiated by references to
> mailing list posts where Joey or any other DWN editor accuses someone
> who complains about their editorial policy of "trying to game them in
> the broken system".

I may do that later, so for future: Does [EMAIL PROTECTED] have an archive?

-- 
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My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Subscribed to this list. No need to Cc, thanks.


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Andrew Suffield]

On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 03:17:16AM +, Henning Makholm wrote:
> > It's worrying that other groups think similar "Newsletter of Record"
> > publications will help them and so make rods for their own backs.
> 
> Dude, what is your *problem*?

The problem includes DWN misreporting the more insane discussions on
debian-legal as if they were Debian policy, rather than an idiot being
shot down, slashdot reprinting the misreport, and then people using
this as an effort to sabotage -legal.

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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Steve McIntyre]

MJR wrote:
>Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I'll leave the rest of your bile to someone else, but for the record, as
>> the founder of DWN, I resent the implication that the newsleatter is
>> modeled on a US tabloid, which I have never read (except for headlines
>> about two-headed cows while standing in line with my milk). If it wasn't
>> so sad, that alligation would be histerical.
>
>Why? There are more than a few similarities, by luck or not:
>
>* Neither feels that the groups it reports on are their main
>  audience.
>
>* Any item included in either has to be sexy enough to match
>  the red top and that means accuracy sometimes gets left out.
>
>* They are not afraid to pull cunning stunts like reporting
>  statements single-sourced from fairly new contributors as if
>  it's a consensus view of a group, or "inflating" articles with
>  inaccurate or irrelevant spin.
>
>* They have friends who get puffed regularly, but "good news"
>  stories about groups on the blacklist can get ignored and/or
>  stuffed at the bottom of the issue.
>
>* The editors take the traditional approach of completely ignoring
>  most criticism and either accusing the complainer or trying to
>  game them in the broken system. There is no recommended route
>  to seek clarification or retraction and those misrepresented
>  or injured just have to punt.

Exactly which publication are you talking about here? That sounds
nothing like my experience of DWN. What wound you up? Did somebody not
cover your pet issue in the way you wanted?

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED]
There's no sensation to compare with this
Suspended animation, A state of bliss


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Re: Red-tops, was: Clarification about krooger's platform

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Why? There are more than a few similarities, by luck or not:

I cannot recognize DWN at all in your description.

> * Neither feels that the groups it reports on are their main
>   audience.

As far as I can see, the main audience of DWN is Debian developers,
package maintainers, and other members of the community. This audience
is exactly whom they report on.

> * Any item included in either has to be sexy enough to match
>   the red top and that means accuracy sometimes gets left out.

Huh? The "red top" you are referring to is the global www.d.o
navigation bar? Do you think the navigation bar is sexy?
In which way does a DWN item need to "match" that?

> * They are not afraid to pull cunning stunts like reporting
>   statements single-sourced from fairly new contributors as if
>   it's a consensus view of a group, or "inflating" articles with
>   inaccurate or irrelevant spin.

The usual DWN story includes links to what people actually said on the
mailing lists, and explicitly phrase their summaries as "N.N. said
so-and-so" rather than "the consensus is so-and-so".

> * They have friends who get puffed regularly, but "good news"
>   stories about groups on the blacklist can get ignored and/or
>   stuffed at the bottom of the issue.

Huh? Which "groups" do you perceive as being blacklisted by DWN? Could
it be that there are simply no readers of the relevant mailing lists
who regularly report news to the DWN editors?

> * The editors take the traditional approach of completely ignoring
>   most criticism and either accusing the complainer or trying to
>   game them in the broken system.

Huh? This accusation demands to be substantiated by references to
mailing list posts where Joey or any other DWN editor accuses someone
who complains about their editorial policy of "trying to game them in
the broken system".

> Even I could, but it's better just to ignore DWN most of the time.

I wouldn't want to miss it.

> It's worrying that other groups think similar "Newsletter of Record"
> publications will help them and so make rods for their own backs.

Dude, what is your *problem*?

-- 
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