Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 2013-03-12 09:45, Charles Plessy wrote: I have a question: could you comment on the differences, complementarity, or overlap between such an internship and the NM process, which already has extensive questions about packaging. My personal experience is that when I went through the NM process I learned a lot through the exchanges with my AM, to the point that I felt it close to be a "kind of internship sheme"... I agree that often in the NM process there is a form of mentoring. We also have packaging mentoring through debian-mentors. In addition, we already have existing structured schemes in Debian like https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/MoM and http://www.debian.org/women/mentoring besides of course GSoC. For the NM process itself, though, I would note that over the years Front Desk have tended to increase how ready they would like people to be before starting. The ideal in the NM process is seen to be that someone is already clearly ready to be a Debian member, and that the process is just a formality. And that's not just a recent change -- back when I was first an AM, it was recognised that some applicants wanted the process to be much more of a mentoring one than it was -- in some cases, people hope they can apply for membership without knowing at all yet what they want to do in Debian, and be guided into an appropriate role. Even if we made the NM process more heavily a mentoring scheme, it would still only help people who are at the specific stage of trying to become a Debian member. The "internships" I have in mind are more general: - They could work for people not ready for NM yet, by pulling in even people who don't yet have any ideas about how to contribute to Debian, but want to help and learn in a structured scheme. - They could also work for existing long-term Debian members, like the FTP team's FTPTrainee scheme.[1] -- Moray [1] See https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2012/09/msg1.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/d018145525e5ab9b703497018a4cb...@www.morayallan.com
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
Le Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 08:07:40PM +0300, Moray Allan a écrit : > > Nevertheless, I think it would be useful for us to have some wider > kind of internship scheme, for the huge proportion of Debian > activity that definitely will not fit under the current GSoC rules. Hi Moray, I have a question: could you comment on the differences, complementarity, or overlap between such an internship and the NM process, which already has extensive questions about packaging. My personal experience is that when I went through the NM process I learned a lot through the exchanges with my AM, to the point that I felt it close to be a "kind of internship sheme"... Lucas and Gergely, you are of course free to comment if you wish. Cheers, -- Charles -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130312064538.ga12...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 2013-03-11 23:26, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: Note that I did not comment (or "ignored", as you put it) on some points in your reply only because I agreed with them. (Thank you for clarifying; I didn't detect agreement from your reply.) Still, given that GSoC exists, I find it useful to explore whether we can use it for more (types of) projects than we do now. The fact that we explore such opportunities doesn't prevent us from discussing or creating our own internship program. Indeed. Btw, in your opinion, should this internship program include a stipend, like GSoC? When I wrote my platform I was not thinking of a full-time summer[1] program or of something targetted at students. So I was envisaging part-time "internships" without stipend, probably just arranged ad-hoc by teams. I think we would have volunteer interns for these even without payment, from people new to Debian and from existing project contributors. If there was general support then we could look at organising a funded program, but I would need a lot of persuasion before wanting to get into the question of Debian picking specific individuals to pay for their work while everyone else is unpaid volunteers.[2] For reference, there are other similar programs. See e.g. https://live.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen which is focused on women (with 10 participating organizations). Yes, thanks for mentioning that as another example. In fact the Gnome Women's Outreach Program, along with other examples I mentioned earlier in the thread from within Debian, is part of the background to my own interest in this area, since I know well Hanna Wallach who helped get the first edition going in 2006. -- Moray [1] GSoC is only northern-hemisphere summer; in a Debian program, we might want to support more locales. [2] Some of you will remember Dunc-Tank. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/dc285e8d586bdb7e73f990d0b38a7...@www.morayallan.com
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 11/03/13 at 22:41 +0300, Moray Allan wrote: > On 2013-03-11 22:14, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > >We can try to second-guess Google's motivations for excluding > >documentation to determine if it also applies to packaging, or we can > >just ask, which I have done: > > > >https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/google-summer-of-code-discuss/X9UmGnR6cZI > > OK, but you've again ignored the substantive points in my reply in > favour of this specific issue. > > To be clear: > > I mentioned in passing that GSoC doesn't even seem to cover > packaging, but it absolutely definitely does not cover a large > proportion of Debian activities. For example, documentation would > be a perfectly valid activity for a Debian internship, as would be, > for example, any coordination activity. I also mentioned previously > that in some cases they could be used to let people learn from > "shadowing" activity, whereas the GSoC model is about the student > working on a project and presenting the code at the end. > > And GSoC absolutely definitely only covers a rather narrow segment > of the population. > > I am not trying to criticise GSoC or say it's flawed, just to > explain why we might indeed want something more than only GSoC. Note that I did not comment (or "ignored", as you put it) on some points in your reply only because I agreed with them. Still, given that GSoC exists, I find it useful to explore whether we can use it for more (types of) projects than we do now. The fact that we explore such opportunities doesn't prevent us from discussing or creating our own internship program. Btw, in your opinion, should this internship program include a stipend, like GSoC? For reference, there are other similar programs. See e.g. https://live.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen which is focused on women (with 10 participating organizations). Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130311202603.ga27...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 2013-03-11 22:14, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: We can try to second-guess Google's motivations for excluding documentation to determine if it also applies to packaging, or we can just ask, which I have done: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/google-summer-of-code-discuss/X9UmGnR6cZI OK, but you've again ignored the substantive points in my reply in favour of this specific issue. To be clear: I mentioned in passing that GSoC doesn't even seem to cover packaging, but it absolutely definitely does not cover a large proportion of Debian activities. For example, documentation would be a perfectly valid activity for a Debian internship, as would be, for example, any coordination activity. I also mentioned previously that in some cases they could be used to let people learn from "shadowing" activity, whereas the GSoC model is about the student working on a project and presenting the code at the end. And GSoC absolutely definitely only covers a rather narrow segment of the population. I am not trying to criticise GSoC or say it's flawed, just to explain why we might indeed want something more than only GSoC. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/0d21654e12270a911ba2683770d9c...@www.morayallan.com
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 11/03/13 at 20:14 +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > We can try to second-guess Google's motivations for excluding > documentation to determine if it also applies to packaging, or we can > just ask, which I have done: > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/google-summer-of-code-discuss/X9UmGnR6cZI > > We will see :) Reply: On 11/03/13 at 12:13 -0700, Carol Smith wrote: > Firstly, we don't know if Debian is participating in this year's program. > I'd recommend you wait until we've announced accepted orgs for these sorts > of questions. Secondly, if you have questions like this once we've accepted > organizations, I'd recommend you reach out directly to the org to discuss > your project idea. Not very conclusive... but one could read it as "it's fine to discuss such ideas with the project, so it means that such ideas won't be rejected upfront". Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130311193024.ga25...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 11/03/13 at 20:07 +0300, Moray Allan wrote: > On 2013-03-11 19:44, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > >I see. Interesting. But in > >https://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2013/03/msg00012.html, the > >"no > >packaging work" rule seems to come from the Debian GSoC team, and at > >least Sylvestre seems open to modifying it. (Oops, I missed the fact that Sylvestre is not an admin of Debian's GSoC for the 2013 edition.) > It "comes from" from how they have understood the GSoC rules -- I > would suggest you read the GSoC pages, e.g. start from > http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page > that I mentioned before. Besides the explicit rules, see e.g. the > timeline in > http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page#2._What_is_the_program_timeline > which is clearly designed around regular coding projects. > > Or see e.g. > http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page#12._Are_proposals_for_documentation_work > which definitively rules out documentation projects. We can try to second-guess Google's motivations for excluding documentation to determine if it also applies to packaging, or we can just ask, which I have done: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/google-summer-of-code-discuss/X9UmGnR6cZI We will see :) Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130311191417.ga23...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 2013-03-11 19:44, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: I see. Interesting. But in https://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2013/03/msg00012.html, the "no packaging work" rule seems to come from the Debian GSoC team, and at least Sylvestre seems open to modifying it. It "comes from" from how they have understood the GSoC rules -- I would suggest you read the GSoC pages, e.g. start from http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page that I mentioned before. Besides the explicit rules, see e.g. the timeline in http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page#2._What_is_the_program_timeline which is clearly designed around regular coding projects. Or see e.g. http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page#12._Are_proposals_for_documentation_work which definitively rules out documentation projects. Probably the goals would need to be a bit more S.M.A.R.T than just "work with the ruby team and learn about packaging", but things such as: "prepare all packages for the transition to ruby 2.0" could work. I would agree that some types of packaging projects can perhaps get approved under GSoC, if they can wait to fit into the GSoC timeline, and if it won't be a disaster if the student doesn't produce a good result, etc. Nevertheless, I think it would be useful for us to have some wider kind of internship scheme, for the huge proportion of Debian activity that definitely will not fit under the current GSoC rules. Another rather significant difference from GSoC, that I forgot to mention in the previous message, is that I would also like Debian internship schemes to include more people than only students over 18 at accredited institutions, unlike GSoC. People who are younger than 18, who have finished their formal studies, or who haven't made the choice to attend university could also benefit from this. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/857a08ed31b431e69df75de524334...@www.morayallan.com
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 11/03/13 at 19:28 +0300, Moray Allan wrote: > On 2013-03-11 18:42, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > >In your platform, you give that specific idea: > > > >I am not sure how it would differ from GSoC? What different > >problem will > >this solve? > > Apart from the obvious differences of control etc., GSoC is > fundamentally about writing a significant piece of code. See > http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page > > Only a fairly small proportion of Debian work is about writing > significant pieces of code. Currently GSoC doesn't even cover > normal packaging work, let alone more coordination-type activities, > see e.g. > https://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2013/03/msg00012.html > > My proposal would allow us to offer internships like "work with the > Ruby team and learn about packaging" or "work with the release team > and learn about Debian processes". > > See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/MoM for an existing initiative > of this type in Debian. I see. Interesting. But in https://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2013/03/msg00012.html, the "no packaging work" rule seems to come from the Debian GSoC team, and at least Sylvestre seems open to modifying it. Probably the goals would need to be a bit more S.M.A.R.T than just "work with the ruby team and learn about packaging", but things such as: "prepare all packages for the transition to ruby 2.0" could work. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130311164407.ga15...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 2013-03-11 18:42, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: Also, we often have problems finding ideas for GSoC. Oh, and I forgot to say here: This year's deadline for GSoC project ideas is only a week away, on Monday 18 March. I very much encourage everyone reading to think hard about ideas and add new proposals to the list at http://wiki.debian.org/SummerOfCode2013/Projects For more details, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/02/msg7.html -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/df316487e51a6a68896beebad77cc...@www.morayallan.com
Re: to Moray: encourage teams to take interns
On 2013-03-11 18:42, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: In your platform, you give that specific idea: I am not sure how it would differ from GSoC? What different problem will this solve? Apart from the obvious differences of control etc., GSoC is fundamentally about writing a significant piece of code. See http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page Only a fairly small proportion of Debian work is about writing significant pieces of code. Currently GSoC doesn't even cover normal packaging work, let alone more coordination-type activities, see e.g. https://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2013/03/msg00012.html My proposal would allow us to offer internships like "work with the Ruby team and learn about packaging" or "work with the release team and learn about Debian processes". See https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/MoM for an existing initiative of this type in Debian. Also, we often have problems finding ideas for GSoC. Do you think that we can find enough ideas+mentors for another program? I think it's much easier to offer "come and help in our team" than to think up a coding project that a student could plausibly do during a GSoC project to help Debian, that's not too easy or too hard, and that you don't prefer to just get on and do yourself, so yes, I hope we could find more ideas and mentors for what I'm suggesting. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/18bf9798eb4b9698bc14bb1c6abf7...@www.morayallan.com
