Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 2013-03-15 02:39, Toni Mueller wrote:
My personal favourite would be more, and likely more geographically
diverse, Mini-Debconfs ("Bar Camp" style?). I found the one in Berlin
very inspiring, and I was so far, unfortunately, unable to make it to
a real DebConf.
Yes. While I think it is valuable to have a "main" conference to allow
maximum interchange between people from different regions, we should
also encourage more regional events. Events which last a day or two do
not take a lot of organiser time. (Somehow the organiser time required
seems to grow exponentially with the scale of the event.)
Not everyone can justify the travel time or cost of attending a distant
event. I think this is especially relevant for encouraging new
contributors, or people who are just thinking about starting to
contribute to Debian. Only the most enthusiastic will consider
attending a DebConf far away from them; many more would attend a shorter
local event.
--
Moray
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Re: Usage of Debian's Money
Lucas Nussbaum writes: > On 13/03/13 at 00:57 +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: >> 3/ Buy advertising space on various media to recruit new contributors and >> lead them into our (improved) mentoring infrastructure. > > I think that we have other, better ways, to improve the project's > visibility than to use paid advertising. For example, do cool stuff, and > get it covered by the press. ;) Let me disagree a bit here. While it may not apply to all kinds of press, my impression so far is that waiting for press to happen is a nice dream. To achieve maximum effect and reach, you have to influence the press, and just doing cool stuff will not be enough for that. Quite likely, they won't even realize cool stuff happened, or only when it's already old news. But even if they do, will they consult us? Will they paint a correct picture, that does us good? I would not be so sure, and would rather avoid this whole problem by delegating the task to OUR press team whom we do trust, and then persuade the media to use our press team's material, in exchange of some green bills or virtual coins. Everybody wins. Mind you, I'm not saying that accidental press is bad - it surely isn't. All I'm saying is that we can benefit from both. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87a9q3e3e6@galadriel.madhouse-project.org
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
Raphael Hertzog writes: > Since both of you want examples of possible uses of money, here you have > some that I quickly came up with: > > 1/ Grant some amount of money to the release team to offer as bounties on > release blocker issues that are not going forward. While such one-off bounties would help the release further along, would it be worth it? As far as I see, our releases are slow, because we're terrible at dealing with RC bugs, we have tons of packages lingering in a sorry state, and there's no bounty that'd fix any of these. It's a bit of an exaggeration perhaps, but bounties for release blocker issues sounds like pulling a tooth. It makes the pain go away, but if you don't wash your teeth, it doesn't help much in the long run. > 2/ Have the ftpmasters write up a spec of what needs to be done to finally > have "ddeb support" (or "PPA" or ...) and use Debian's money to contract > with someone (unaffiliated to Debian?) to actually implement the spec under > the > supervision of ftpmasters. Copyright of the code written would fall under > Debian/SPI. The problem with this approach is that writing the spec and supervising the person or people implementing it is no small task, either. I dare say it is actually harder than writing the code itself. Therefore, I would find it unfair to spend money this way, unless ftpmasters are getting paid for their part too. I find the GSoC model reasonably acceptable for these kinds of things, however. > 3/ Buy advertising space on various media to recruit new contributors and > lead them into our (improved) mentoring infrastructure. Offer goodies as > rewards to new contributors who successfully played some game which > tricked them into contributing to Debian. This, on the other hand, does sound like a reasonable idea. However, I think that our primary goal should not be the recruitment of new contributors (not directly, anyway), but to increase our visibility, and to show the wider world, that we're more than a group of geeks who do a distribution. I won't go into details right now (too many other questions to answer, sorry!), but feel free to prod me, if you want me to explain further. (Although, I probably touched the subject partially elsewhere - but not quite in this context, so.. if you want me to explain, let me know, and I'll happily do so.) -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ehffe3z1@galadriel.madhouse-project.org
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
Raphael Hertzog writes: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Moray Allan wrote: >> If there was general support then we could look at organising a >> funded program, but I would need a lot of persuasion before wanting >> to get into the question of Debian picking specific individuals to >> pay for their work while everyone else is unpaid volunteers.[2] >> >> [2] Some of you will remember Dunc-Tank. > > Despite the above statement, your platform mentions “I would seek > suggestions on how we could try to advance Debian's goals by spending > money in ways we're not currently doing. While I think we should be > careful with money, I would be willing to authorise spending to try out > new ideas from others, where goals can be defined and the success of an > initiative can be judged.” > > What kind of new ideas would be acceptable? Feel free to invent some > hypothetical examples to illustrate. > > To other candidates, do you believe that we could benefit from using money > for other things than hardware and meeting/travel reimbursment? If yes, > what kind of things? Yes, I believe we would benefit from using money for other things than hardware and meeting/travel reimbursment. We already use money in other ways (sprints come to mind, for example, but one can argue that these fall under meeting/travel reimbursment). As I mentioned a few times here on -vote@ already, one of the things I'd like to see is more events, that are not strictly Debian related, but rather Debian sponsored. The intent there is to meet people who are not yet interested in Debian, may not even heard about it, and learn from them, to help us better understand how we could lure them towards us. All this under the disguise of doing something completely different. I'll give you an example! Imagine a CodeRetreat[1], a day long, intensive practice event (a great way to learn a lot, meet people, and for a lot of other things too). This is often done by having ~45 minute sessions, where during each session, people work in pairs (or well, together with others, does not need to be only two - point is, never alone) to solve a particular problem. Each session adds a new twist, and after each session, the participants discuss the previous one: what they learned, what they found interesting, how far they got - and so on. Then change pairs, and proceed. [1]: http://coderetreat.org/about This, so far is nothing earth-shaking, but meeting with new people, potential contributors is already a big win: the power of corridor-talk is not to be underestimated. However, there is more! We can twist and turn the goal of the sessions, the problems to solve in many ways, and therefore, we can bend it to our will, too. We can prepare sessions where participants solve a particular issue we have (or had) within Debian. Obviously, these need to be lightweight ones, with whih one can progress far enough within 45 minutes, and where the CodeRetreat facilators can help. So one idea would be to pick an issue we already solved one way or the other, and let the participants have at it. In my experience, when this is done well, participants will sooner or later (and often sooner) dive deeper, and by seeking more knowledge, contribute in the process. The various teams (be them packaging teams or other kinds) are in the perfect position to benefit from these kinds of events. I will do whatever is in my power, to help them use the opportunity, to help them organise (and I'm counting on local teams here too - a project-wide collaboration, whee!). Another idea - which falls somewhat under travel reimbursment - would be to have Debian people give guest lectures at universities. When I was attending a technical university, I loved the guests (that was pretty much the only thing I loved about it, to be honest, which is one of the many reasons I never finished one :P), for they showed how things go in the real world, how even one person can make a difference - and that was very inspirational. Add to this, that we have able speakers, we have university connections, we have people from a vast amount of technological - and non-technological - fields. We should use these to our advantage, and support those among us who like to speak, and do that well, so they can do what they do best. There are countless people out there we could reach, if we only took the effort to find them and talk to them. Not just at technological conferences, or as guests lecturers on a programming class - there's much more to Debian than that. I'd like to think that money spent on making Debian being known for something more than a mere distribution (no matter how awesome we are at that), is money well spent. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ip4re51b@galadriel.madhouse-project.org
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 15/03/13 at 00:39 +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:00:48AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > On 12/03/13 at 10:43 +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > > To other candidates, do you believe that we could benefit from using money
> > > for other things than hardware and meeting/travel reimbursment? If yes,
> > > what kind of things?
> >
> > [ I replied in https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2013/03/msg00084.html ]
>
> My personal favourite would be more, and likely more geographically
> diverse, Mini-Debconfs ("Bar Camp" style?). I found the one in Berlin
> very inspiring, and I was so far, unfortunately, unable to make it to
> a real DebConf.
Indeed, such events are also a great way to meet the community of
advanced users / potential developers.
But I'm not sure of which problems would money solve. Based on my
experience from the Paris Mini-debconf (I was not involved in the
organization, but discussed it on a few occasions), it's not too
difficult to find free rooms in universities during week-ends in
exchange of some visibility/advertisement during the event.
What we could do is participate in the travel/lodging costs of Debian
contributors or people active in the event (giving talks, etc), and/or
piggy-back on the event to organize more focused meetings/sprints.
Lucas
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Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:00:48AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 12/03/13 at 10:43 +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > To other candidates, do you believe that we could benefit from using money
> > for other things than hardware and meeting/travel reimbursment? If yes,
> > what kind of things?
>
> [ I replied in https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2013/03/msg00084.html ]
My personal favourite would be more, and likely more geographically
diverse, Mini-Debconfs ("Bar Camp" style?). I found the one in Berlin
very inspiring, and I was so far, unfortunately, unable to make it to
a real DebConf.
But I don't know whether that would be feasible.
Kind regards,
--Toni++
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Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 2013-03-13 02:57, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Since both of you want examples of possible uses of money, here you have some that I quickly came up with: 1/ Grant some amount of money to the release team to offer as bounties on release blocker issues that are not going forward. I wouldn't be against experimenting with bounties, but like Lucas I would much happier about non-cash bounties, and also think that non-bounty "rewards" by people being public thanked for their work might be sufficient incentive in many cases. 2/ Have the ftpmasters write up a spec of what needs to be done to finally have "ddeb support" (or "PPA" or ...) and use Debian's money to contract with someone (unaffiliated to Debian?) to actually implement the spec under the supervision of ftpmasters. Copyright of the code written would fall under Debian/SPI. This doesn't sound fundamentally different to me from "pay someone to fix bugs in zsh"[1], or paying people for other normal Debian activities. I could much more easily accept us e.g. paying an accountant or a lawyer for some work that is clearly not related to Debian volunteer roles, though even in those cases I would want us to try to find volunteers first. (Also, if no one in the Debian community was interested enough to write code for the spec, I would wonder if there was a problem with it.) 3/ Buy advertising space on various media to recruit new contributors and lead them into our (improved) mentoring infrastructure. In principle, I don't think I am completely set against paying for advertising. However, I cannot immediately imagine a case where we would expect sufficient benefit from normal media advertising for it to be worthwhile. Note that we already get e.g. free magazine advertising for DebConf, and could surely get additional similar deals if we wanted; and you certainly know that e.g. Google gives free advertising credits to some projects: http://lists.spi-inc.org/pipermail/spi-general/2010-February/002832.html Offer goodies as rewards to new contributors who successfully played some game which tricked them into contributing to Debian. I would want to be persuaded that it wasn't too expensive -- the postal costs would likely outweigh the costs of cheap "goodies" in many cases. However, in principle it would be ok from my point of view, in the same way that a few non-essential costs at a Debian event are ok. I suspect that I would be unconvinced by most ideas that suggested that we spend spend money in ways that it would not be permitted for SPI to spend money under relevant legislation and the SPI by-laws. What kind of restrictions are you referring to? (I answered that in another subthread.) -- Moray [1] I'm sure there are no bugs in zsh. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8968a04437b3d7b4d5a03f1e22532...@www.morayallan.com
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 2013-03-13 09:15, Gunnar Wolf wrote: What kind of restrictions are you referring to? [...] because SPI cannot use its funds for any activity related to flying people to Cuba or transferring that money directly to Cuba. I am unaware of other such restrictions, but: Whatever is forbidden for a 501(c) charity uder the USA laws, is forbidden to SPI. Ha, now I need to clarify that I absolutely did not have in mind US sanctions when I wrote about restrictions. Those are nothing to do with SPI's status, but a feature of general US law. I said, "I suspect that I would be unconvinced by most ideas that suggested that we spend spend money in ways that it would not be permitted for SPI to spend money under relevant legislation and the SPI by-laws." I'm not trying to make a hard rule by that, only to give some kind of description for how I might respond (more or less favourably) to ideas that I haven't heard yet. I was primarily thinking of the restrictions from SPI's bylaws where its purpose is specified (Article 2): http://www.spi-inc.org/corporate/by-laws/ Before someone jumps in, I should again state that I'm not trying to set an acceptance rule by this. There are things allowed by SPI's bylaws that I don't think should be priorities for Debian money. (For example, the bylaws seem to permit general promotion of computer use unrelated to free software, and I don't see immediately that it makes sense to spend Debian money that way.) US sanctions aside, I'm sure there are also things disallowed by them that I would think were reasonable uses of Debian money from a less restricted source. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/0cb59b44b3046c4e922f877c946c6...@www.morayallan.com
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 13/03/13 at 00:57 +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > 3) For what kind of things? > > > > Since you are asking the question, isn't it up to you to come up with > > ideas/examples? :) I find it difficult to discuss such things in the > > general case. > > On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Moray Allan wrote: > > In fact I fear that it's logically impossible for me to give > > examples to demonstrate my point. My claim is that I would be open > > to new ideas from others about spending money, and actively look for > > suggestions. Anything that I suggest myself here is by definition > > not a new idea from others! > > Since both of you want examples of possible uses of money, here you have > some that I quickly came up with: > > 1/ Grant some amount of money to the release team to offer as bounties on > release blocker issues that are not going forward. I think that it is important to motivate our contributors using things that we can reasonably provide on the long term. Such as the reward of participating to a well-known and visible project. I don't support the idea of using monetary bounties to encourage volunteers. I could be convinced to use Debian money to encourage volunteers if the focus was not on money itself, but rather on giving an quite inexpensive gift. For example, if the idea was to give cool tshirts with a "10 RC bugs fixed: my contribution to releasing Debian" message. > 2/ Have the ftpmasters write up a spec of what needs to be done to finally > have "ddeb support" (or "PPA" or ...) and use Debian's money to contract > with someone (unaffiliated to Debian?) to actually implement the spec under > the > supervision of ftpmasters. Copyright of the code written would fall under > Debian/SPI. Same as above, I would not support that. Maintaining packages and our distribution infrastructure is really central in Debian. I don't think that we should outsource that. I could be convinced if the task was not something related to usual skills found inside Debian, and that, even after trying we could not find any volunteer able/willing to do the task. > 3/ Buy advertising space on various media to recruit new contributors and > lead them into our (improved) mentoring infrastructure. I think that we have other, better ways, to improve the project's visibility than to use paid advertising. For example, do cool stuff, and get it covered by the press. ;) > Offer goodies as > rewards to new contributors who successfully played some game which > tricked them into contributing to Debian. That goodie example is similar to my t-shirt example above. So yes, why not. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130313104645.ga30...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:15:30AM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > I am unaware of other such restrictions, but: Whatever is forbidden > for a 501(c) charity uder the USA laws, is forbidden to SPI. Right. Just a note on your example: I don't know about Postgres, but Debian does have other trusted organizations around the world that might come handy to overcome limitations of country-specific organizations. For instance, had it been a Debian trip, we could have done the reimbursement via some other, non-US, trusted orga. Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Debian Project Leader . . . . . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
Raphael Hertzog dijo [Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:57:50AM +0100]: > Since both of you want examples of possible uses of money, here you have > some that I quickly came up with: > (...) I won't comment on them, as you are addressing our candidates, not just anybody ;-) And I don't have anything too useful to add. > > I suspect that I would be unconvinced by most ideas that suggested > > that we spend spend money in ways that it would not be permitted for > > SPI to spend money under relevant legislation and the SPI by-laws. > > What kind of restrictions are you referring to? There are some activities forbidden with SPI money. I was, for example, at the PgDay Hispano in Cuba in 2011, as well as some other (and much more PostgreSQL-minded than me, I'm basically just a very happy user), one from Chile, one from Ecuador, one from Norway. We were all invited, and it was supposed we would get travel sponsorship. In the end I ended up giving my plane ticket as a donation to PostgreSQL (I don't know about their situation), because SPI cannot use its funds for any activity related to flying people to Cuba or transferring that money directly to Cuba. I am unaware of other such restrictions, but: Whatever is forbidden for a 501(c) charity uder the USA laws, is forbidden to SPI. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130313061530.gb108...@gwolf.org
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
Hi, On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > 3) For what kind of things? > > Since you are asking the question, isn't it up to you to come up with > ideas/examples? :) I find it difficult to discuss such things in the > general case. On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Moray Allan wrote: > In fact I fear that it's logically impossible for me to give > examples to demonstrate my point. My claim is that I would be open > to new ideas from others about spending money, and actively look for > suggestions. Anything that I suggest myself here is by definition > not a new idea from others! Since both of you want examples of possible uses of money, here you have some that I quickly came up with: 1/ Grant some amount of money to the release team to offer as bounties on release blocker issues that are not going forward. 2/ Have the ftpmasters write up a spec of what needs to be done to finally have "ddeb support" (or "PPA" or ...) and use Debian's money to contract with someone (unaffiliated to Debian?) to actually implement the spec under the supervision of ftpmasters. Copyright of the code written would fall under Debian/SPI. 3/ Buy advertising space on various media to recruit new contributors and lead them into our (improved) mentoring infrastructure. Offer goodies as rewards to new contributors who successfully played some game which tricked them into contributing to Debian. > I suspect that I would be unconvinced by most ideas that suggested > that we spend spend money in ways that it would not be permitted for > SPI to spend money under relevant legislation and the SPI by-laws. What kind of restrictions are you referring to? Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Get the Debian Administrator's Handbook: → http://debian-handbook.info/get/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130312235750.gb10...@x230-buxy.home.ouaza.com
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 12/03/13 at 10:43 +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > To other candidates, do you believe that we could benefit from using money > for other things than hardware and meeting/travel reimbursment? If yes, > what kind of things? [ I replied in https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2013/03/msg00084.html ] Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130312230048.gb11...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 2013-03-12 13:19, Moray Allan wrote: Before thinking about any further examples In fact I fear that it's logically impossible for me to give examples to demonstrate my point. My claim is that I would be open to new ideas from others about spending money, and actively look for suggestions. Anything that I suggest myself here is by definition not a new idea from others! For any new ideas, besides the costs, I would want us to assess the probability of different outcomes (e.g. probability of harm to Debian, of no benefit, of a small benefit, of a large benefit), and to agree in advance how the success of the spending will be measured and reviewed. I suspect that I would be unconvinced by most ideas that suggested that we spend spend money in ways that it would not be permitted for SPI to spend money under relevant legislation and the SPI by-laws. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/b2751744b3833e26c46b9160b4029...@www.morayallan.com
Re: Usage of Debian's Money
On 2013-03-12 12:43, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Moray Allan wrote: If there was general support then we could look at organising a funded program, but I would need a lot of persuasion before wanting to get into the question of Debian picking specific individuals to pay for their work while everyone else is unpaid volunteers.[2] [2] Some of you will remember Dunc-Tank. Despite the above statement, your platform mentions “I would seek suggestions on how we could try to advance Debian's goals by spending money in ways we're not currently doing. While I think we should be careful with money, I would be willing to authorise spending to try out new ideas from others, where goals can be defined and the success of an initiative can be judged.” What kind of new ideas would be acceptable? Feel free to invent some hypothetical examples to illustrate. Before thinking about any further examples, I first want to explain what I meant above, since it seems like I wasn't clear to you: I said I would need (a lot of) persuasion before paying individual Debian contributors. That's true, but it certainly doesn't mean I would attempt to veto paid internship stipends for e.g. students, if there seemed to be general support for them. I was not trying to exclude them from "acceptable" ideas. For ideas which have not been tried at all before, my personal persuasion-threshold for doing an experiment would be lower than for this, though I would still want to be careful about the amount spent. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ce49a42c27fe5429bb22a3488e4f9...@www.morayallan.com
Usage of Debian's Money
(starting a new thread) Hi, On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Moray Allan wrote: > If there was general support then we could look at organising a > funded program, but I would need a lot of persuasion before wanting > to get into the question of Debian picking specific individuals to > pay for their work while everyone else is unpaid volunteers.[2] > > [2] Some of you will remember Dunc-Tank. Despite the above statement, your platform mentions “I would seek suggestions on how we could try to advance Debian's goals by spending money in ways we're not currently doing. While I think we should be careful with money, I would be willing to authorise spending to try out new ideas from others, where goals can be defined and the success of an initiative can be judged.” What kind of new ideas would be acceptable? Feel free to invent some hypothetical examples to illustrate. To other candidates, do you believe that we could benefit from using money for other things than hardware and meeting/travel reimbursment? If yes, what kind of things? Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Get the Debian Administrator's Handbook: → http://debian-handbook.info/get/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130312094330.ga30...@x230-buxy.home.ouaza.com
