Re: Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
Le Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 08:13:23AM +0100, Raphael Hertzog a écrit : What do you think of this and would you be ready to withdraw a delegation for a delegate that behaved badly towards another DD (even outside of his delegated role), that has been warned once by you and that did it again later on? Do you think we can draft a code of conduct for Debian and do you think you can ensure that it would be respected by delegates? Dear Raphaël, the role of many delegates is to lead a team, and as such they need good social skills. Biting back people who criticize their work is not a good way to defend their team. In contrary, it turns down contributors and isolates it. I would like to add that aggression is not the only bad behaviour. Refusing answers is also a way to demotivate and put aside people. I think that the role of a delegate is to communicate even with the developers he does not want to work with. (If some people abuse the delegate's time with repetitive requests, that is another story). If a delegate repeatedly misbehaves or fail to communicate, I will ask him to step down in a mid/short term, ideally at the opportunity of a notable achievement. I think that it is important to leave to people a possibility to save the face, expecially with on-line projects like Debian that leave a permanent trace in the Internet search engines. Changing a delegate should not be a personal punishment, but a way to get things done better in Debian, so despite that “we will not hide problems”, I will not have the discussion with the badly behaving delegate in public (but perhaps on debian-priv...@l.d.o if I have the feeling that the Project is expecting it). Lastly, I do not think that we need a code of conduct. I am worried that it would generate too much meta-discussion. I think that it it enough to remind newcomers that when we do not know personnaly the recipient of our messages, there is a high risk that anything too causal will be misinterpreted. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100318011536.ga18...@kunpuu.plessy.org
Re: Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 02:09:18PM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: What are you referring to here when you write Code of Conduct? Do you mean the Debian Community Guidelines (as I guess), or rather http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ? Yes, the Community Guidelines. As I've always understood that the idea of these Guidelines is to eventually replace or enhance the CoC, I consider them a draft for a new CoC. I think that they should be validated by a vote, so that we can know if the community as a whole agrees with them or not. However, I don't know why Enrico hasn't submitted such a vote. I didn't because they are more like a list of useful suggestions to improve online communication, kind of like a HOWTO, rather than a policy to be followed. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
Hello, another question to all candidates (this question is inspired by a recent event). Most of you have answered that it's not possible to regulate the heated discussions but it's possible to set a good example. If only the leader behaves properly, it will still be difficult to make the climate change. But if all the delegates behave properly, and if delegates that do not behave properly are withdrawn due to this, we might get better results. What do you think of this and would you be ready to withdraw a delegation for a delegate that behaved badly towards another DD (even outside of his delegated role), that has been warned once by you and that did it again later on? Do you think we can draft a code of conduct for Debian and do you think you can ensure that it would be respected by delegates? Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Like what I do? Sponsor me: http://ouaza.com/wp/2010/01/05/5-years-of-freexian/ My Debian goals: http://ouaza.com/wp/2010/01/09/debian-related-goals-for-2010/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 08:13:23AM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
Most of you have answered that it's not possible to regulate the heated
discussions but it's possible to set a good example. If only the leader
behaves properly, it will still be difficult to make the climate change.
But if all the delegates behave properly, and if delegates that do not
behave properly are withdrawn due to this, we might get better results.
FWIW, I've also stated that: (1) others than the DPL should equally set
an example and, more importantly, exercise peer pressure on who is
misbehaving and (2) that we should start forming the next generation
of DDs. (This is not a criticism on your representation of answers, just
a clarification on my position.)
What do you think of this and would you be ready to withdraw a delegation
for a delegate that behaved badly towards another DD (even outside of his
delegated role), that has been warned once by you and that did it again
later on?
I agree on your point that: having the DPL setting an example is one
thing while having all the DPL + core teams doing that is another (much
better) thing. That means that the DPL, for the benefit of the whole
project, should do his/her best to have core teams communicating
properly. I will surely mail, privately first and then publicly next,
a delegate which is behaving badly (your wording) about that.
Frankly speaking however, I don't see much the reality of your example,
or maybe I'm just missing what you've in mind when you write behaving
badly. Of course I'd consider unacceptable for a delegate to
repeatedly, e.g., insult someone on list. Such a behavior would warrant
early warning and eventually even delegation withdrawal. But I don't
remember any such extreme example in the recent past. If you've specific
examples, please reference them and I'll be happy to tell you what I'd
done.
In fact, the most frequent remark on the communication of delegates is
about the lack of it. If elected DPL, I would surely encourage delegates
to communicate periodically about what they're doing. Nevertheless, we
should remember that communicating *is* an additional burden and while
the DPL can decide for him/herself how to balance his own efforts (I've
already discussed in another thread my intended personal balance), the
DPL cannot *force* such decision on delegates. I'm convinced that in
most cases the DPL has alternative levers though: for instance the DPL
can communicate _in place_ of the delegates (giving proper credit), can
pose a kind of _periodic communication requirement_ when establishing
new delegations, can appoint _new people_ as co-delegates choosing
people that do like communicating. Let's remember that there are people
that like to communicate, even among geeks, it is just a matter of
associating them with complementary kind of people.
Do you think we can draft a code of conduct for Debian and do you think
you can ensure that it would be respected by delegates?
I don't like the idea of using Code of Conducts (CoCs) to retaliate a
posteriori saying « see, you've just violated CoC §1.2.3.4 ». It can't
work that way in our Debian world, where even if we can establish
trials, those trials will simply get the fun out of all involved people
(and often a lot more). I rather believe that CoCs, and the signatures
apposed thereon, exist to have people read them and, in the long run, to
create a specific culture within a project (that's why I would like the
idea of having some document along these lines read and possibly signed
during the NM process).
To that end, delegates are not special DDs and should not have specific
CoC to sign.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 09:10:23AM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote:
A new Code of Conduct has already been drafted, but it has never been
put into practice.
What are you referring to here when you write Code of Conduct? Do you
mean the Debian Community Guidelines (as I guess), or rather
http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ?
Just to understand if I'm missing something :-)
Thanks,
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org wrote: On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 09:10:23AM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: A new Code of Conduct has already been drafted, but it has never been put into practice. What are you referring to here when you write Code of Conduct? Do you mean the Debian Community Guidelines (as I guess), or rather http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct ? Yes, the Community Guidelines. As I've always understood that the idea of these Guidelines is to eventually replace or enhance the CoC, I consider them a draft for a new CoC. I think that they should be validated by a vote, so that we can know if the community as a whole agrees with them or not. However, I don't know why Enrico hasn't submitted such a vote. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e8bbf0361003151009r517868bdkc2d74cfefd573...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Will you withdraw delegations of DD not behaving correctly?
Hi, On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 08:13:23AM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Hello, another question to all candidates (this question is inspired by a recent event). Could you comment on what event, exactly, you are talking about? (Don't feel too compelled to if you believe this would unnecessarily hurt the privacy or reputation of the people involved...) Most of you have answered that it's not possible to regulate the heated discussions but it's possible to set a good example. If only the leader behaves properly, it will still be difficult to make the climate change. But if all the delegates behave properly, and if delegates that do not behave properly are withdrawn due to this, we might get better results. What do you think of this and would you be ready to withdraw a delegation for a delegate that behaved badly towards another DD (even outside of his delegated role), that has been warned once by you and that did it again later on? I do not believe that punitive measures are the best way to react to socially unacceptable behaviour, except in extreme circumstances (i.e., multiple unrelated events that show that a particular delegate is exhibiting socially unacceptable behaviour). What you do if you do that, is to basically say be nice, or else *I*'ll be not nice, which is a perfect way of risking to exhibit socially unacceptable behaviour yourself (unless you're perfect, but I don't believe in perfection). I also believe that people, when told in a polite way that they are being rude, will often apologise or clarify what they meant. A good example is the recent set of blog posts by Thorsten Glaser on Planet Debian, who retracted some of his statements after being challenged on his behaviour by several people. So, no, I think it's quite unlikely that I'll have to resort to doing that; but if necessary, I will not refuse to do so. Do you think we can draft a code of conduct for Debian and do you think you can ensure that it would be respected by delegates? The best way to come up with a working code of conduct, IMO, is to breed a set of unwritten social rules that people know they should not violate too easily, because they'll get publically challenged on that behaviour. Of course some people will just ignore the social rules anyway, even when politely challenged by several people; but the listmasters commonly already ban such people, and that works well. Having a formal code of conduct will just invite lawyering and more proceduring by trolls who simply wish to make our lives miserable. I do not believe it serves any useful purpose. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
