Re: site design again

[David Stern]

On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 14:51:17 EDT, "James A. Treacy" wrote:

> Feel 'free' to edit the page and post the new text. Think of it as
> submitting proposed changes to upstream source. It is the OpenSource
> model for text. :)

Hehe.

Now I see Open Source and DFSG are not merely compatible, they are the 
same.  Can someone please tell me about the use of the terms "DFSG" and 
"Open Source" (Debian's policy, preference,..)?  I thought Eric S. 
Raymond created Open Source on his own, but now I see Open Source is 
verbatim DFSG.  How did Open Source come to take on DFSG, and why isn't 
Debian listed as Open Source compliant if Open Source Definition is 
DFSG?  Talk about biting the hand that feeds you..

  http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html
  http://www.opensource.org/osd.html

I've never seen discussion of Open Source in a Debian forum, so I'm a 
little unsure as what to make of these seeming contradictions. Aaah!
-- 
David Stern  
--
 http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kotsya
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Debian Banner Redone

[Adam Edwards]

For any who haven't seen I've redone the Debian Banner at
http://www.pandora.org/debian/

I'd love opinions on the concept or suggestions on better ones. You
describe what you want and I'll attempt to realize the image.  (I could use
the practice. )

Later,
A


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Re: site design again

[Georg Hitsch]

Hi!

> Regarding the choice of server: not true. cgi scripts are the only thing
> that aren't affected by which server you use. The idea is that everyone
> have a complete copy of the pages and only use cgi.debian.org for
> running cgi. This makes it much easier to mirror the pages.
> 
> Also, the current pages are validated (using 3.2). There is only
> one error that I know of. I don't do it very often so occasionally
> new errors creep in.

If you really want to do mirror easy, let the List-Archive on a special
server ... 
(Its not easy to mirror the List-Archive, etc.)

FTP-Mirroring (from ftp.debian.org) works very good, the "normal" webtree
is the same .. but the List-Archive is a "($())$)$$(=$(="$(=$)=

Georg 


 
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Re: site design again

[James A . Treacy]

>   Very nice work. I see you validate the HTML (I like validated
>  SGML)  I think I would like a more prominent positioning of the
>  choose server nearest you (seems like it is only relevant to searches
>  as it is), but this is a very minor nit. Also, is there a way to have
>  a small Captain Blue eyes on the pages?
> 
Regarding the choice of server: not true. cgi scripts are the only thing
that aren't affected by which server you use. The idea is that everyone
have a complete copy of the pages and only use cgi.debian.org for
running cgi. This makes it much easier to mirror the pages.

Also, the current pages are validated (using 3.2). There is only
one error that I know of. I don't do it very often so occasionally
new errors creep in.

Jay


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Re: site design again

[James A . Treacy]

> On this note, I've wondered if anyone has noticed that the word "free" 
> is used an awful lot in the "about Debian" page?  From what I've been 
> reading, "free" is not a good way to describe Linux, because it conveys 
> the perception of reduced quality.  I don't want to start any battles, 
> and I'm certainly not qualified to interpret the slew of free software 
> licenses, so please don't attack too vigorously what I'm about to say, 
> but has anyone considered updating the "about Debian" and "Debian 
> Social Contract (DFSG)" pages to make use of the term  "open source", 
> which conveys higher quality than "free".  I'm aware "open source" is a 
> registered something-or-another, and has it's own home page 
> (www.opensource.org) and I don't know what the ramifications of that 
> are (nor have I seen it discussed in Debian lists).  I've noticed that 
> other leading Linux distros are mentioned in qualifying open source 
> products, and Debian seems to be excluded.  Since Debian is somewhat of 
> a free software pioneer, this seems unfounded.  Further, because Debian 
> is a non-commercial (I hope my terminology is correct) distro, I think 
> Debian is more susceptible to this misperception than commercial 
> distros ("free" equating to reduced quality).  Feedback?  (Be nice!)
> 
Feel 'free' to edit the page and post the new text. Think of it as
submitting proposed changes to upstream source. It is the OpenSource
model for text. :)

Jay


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Re: site design again

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,

Very nice work. I see you validate the HTML (I like validated
 SGML)  I think I would like a more prominent positioning of the
 choose server nearest you (seems like it is only relevant to searches
 as it is), but this is a very minor nit. Also, is there a way to have
 a small Captain Blue eyes on the pages?

I really like this. 

manoj
-- 
 "I got everybody to pay up front...then I blew up their planet." "Now
 why didn't I think of that?" Post Bros. Comics
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E


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Re: site design again

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,

Sorry, I must be going blind. I totally missed captain blue
 eyes, perched right on top.

As I said before, me likum.

manoj
-- 
 "Failing to get them to do it your way might mean they're stupid, but
 it also means you failed to get them to do it your way." Cal Keegan
Manoj Srivastava  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
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Re: site design again

[David Stern]

On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 12:48:36 +0200, Thomas Apel wrote:
> James A.Treacy wrote:
> > 
> > If you feel you have good ideas, please convert a few more pages
> > to what you'd like to see and get back to us. People like what you
> > have done so far so keep going. If we like that too, I'd love it if
> > you became a developer so I could give you access to the web pages.
> 
> In addition to the index I also converted the following pages. Just
> follow the links on the index page.
> 
> - About Debian
> - Distribution
> - Packages
> - Download via FTP
> - Debian on CD
> 
> Take a look at it:
> http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html
> 
> Comments are welcome. Especially about the usability with Lynx. It's
> difficult for me to judge about this as I never really used Lynx.

I like it a lot (nice logo, websponsor, ..).  Kudos.

It's still a little bit "tall" (vertical), however it probably will 
look a little nicer without the "demo site" section.  Definately don't 
let it increase vertically, otherwise it will require too much 
scrolling in lower resolutions/monitor sizes.  You might want to try 
reducing the vertical aspect a little further.

One suggestion I have is to rotate the "What is Debian?" section with 
others, to maintain variety and keep web surfers interest.  Some 
potential substitues may include a select news story, particularly one 
which advocates Debian or gives the latest breaking news on release 
information (dates, irc parties, ..), or honorable notice in industry 
publications (to spread the gospel).  Another idea is to provide some 
kind of "eye candy" or "lure" to draw attention on a featured package 
or development issue (e.g., APT, DEC Alpha or Mk68 versions).  My 
general idea being that debian should convey the image that it is a 
leader and showcase it's talents, recognition, accolades more 
prominently.

On this note, I've wondered if anyone has noticed that the word "free" 
is used an awful lot in the "about Debian" page?  From what I've been 
reading, "free" is not a good way to describe Linux, because it conveys 
the perception of reduced quality.  I don't want to start any battles, 
and I'm certainly not qualified to interpret the slew of free software 
licenses, so please don't attack too vigorously what I'm about to say, 
but has anyone considered updating the "about Debian" and "Debian 
Social Contract (DFSG)" pages to make use of the term  "open source", 
which conveys higher quality than "free".  I'm aware "open source" is a 
registered something-or-another, and has it's own home page 
(www.opensource.org) and I don't know what the ramifications of that 
are (nor have I seen it discussed in Debian lists).  I've noticed that 
other leading Linux distros are mentioned in qualifying open source 
products, and Debian seems to be excluded.  Since Debian is somewhat of 
a free software pioneer, this seems unfounded.  Further, because Debian 
is a non-commercial (I hope my terminology is correct) distro, I think 
Debian is more susceptible to this misperception than commercial 
distros ("free" equating to reduced quality).  Feedback?  (Be nice!)
-- 
David Stern  
--
 http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kotsya
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: site design again

[Enrique Zanardi]

On Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 01:10:32PM -0400, James A.Treacy wrote:
[...]
> > Take a look at it:
> > http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html
> > 
> > Comments are welcome. Especially about the usability with Lynx. It's
> > difficult for me to judge about this as I never really used Lynx.
> > 
> Works fine in lynx. I'd like to hear other comments before we go further
> so we only have to change things once. Please comment even if it's only
> to say it looks great.

Yes, it looks great! :-)

One comment for the "wishlist": I think the "Please use a server near you"
menu should be in a more visible place, (near the top of the page, for
example). I didn't saw it the first time I read the page
 
Thanks,
--
Enrique Zanardi[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dpto. Fisica Fundamental y Experimental Univ. de La Laguna


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Re: site design again

[James A . Treacy]

> In addition to the index I also converted the following pages. Just
> follow the links on the index page.
> 
> - About Debian
> - Distribution
> - Packages
> - Download via FTP
> - Debian on CD
> 
> Take a look at it:
> http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html
> 
> Comments are welcome. Especially about the usability with Lynx. It's
> difficult for me to judge about this as I never really used Lynx.
> 
Works fine in lynx. I'd like to hear other comments before we go further
so we only have to change things once. Please comment even if it's only
to say it looks great.

> BTW are there any figures available how often the site is visited with
> which browser?
> 
Sure. Take a look at http://www.debian.org/~treacy/
All kinds of great statistics in there.

> > If you are familiar with m4 or one of it's variations, it would speed
> > up the process of conversion if one of these were used to generate the
> > actual pages.
> 
> Is it the same m4 used for generating the sendmail config files?
> Nevertheless I never used it. I'm not sure if I have enough time the
> next weeks to get into this. But I might have a brief look at it. Can
> anyone tell me where I can find out more about m4?
> 
I believe so. There is a Debian package of m4 so just install it and
look at the info pages it provides. There is also a Debian package of
wml. I haven't looked into that one so don't know if it is appropriate
or not.

BTW, do you (Thomas) have time to work on the conversion of all the pages?
It's not as many as you think as all the big sections are either generated
from scripts or development docs (which are marked up by others).

> Somewhere I read that title bars or copyright notes can be created as
> "server side includes". I don't know if works the way I think and if is
> usable but we might take it into consideration. Does anyone know more
> about this.
> 
If all the pages were being served from one machine that is one way the
pages might have been done (they probably would simply be served directly
from an SQL database. Very fast and makes searching easy). To make it easier
for mirrors - they simply mirror the pages and go(*) - we don't do anything
like SSI.

Jay

(*)Actually, web mirrors are now required to use content negotation, but I
didn't find another good, simple way to provide the pages in multiple languages.
I've delayed requesting translators until we get the pages updated.


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Re: site design again

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Thomas Apel wrote:

> BTW are there any figures available how often the site is visited with
> which browser?

http://www.debian.org/~jgg/debian.org.stats.html

I also have berlin.org and opersource.org 

Jason


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Re: site design again

[Thomas Apel]

James A.Treacy wrote:
> 
> If you feel you have good ideas, please convert a few more pages
> to what you'd like to see and get back to us. People like what you
> have done so far so keep going. If we like that too, I'd love it if
> you became a developer so I could give you access to the web pages.

In addition to the index I also converted the following pages. Just
follow the links on the index page.

- About Debian
- Distribution
- Packages
- Download via FTP
- Debian on CD

Take a look at it:
http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html

Comments are welcome. Especially about the usability with Lynx. It's
difficult for me to judge about this as I never really used Lynx.

BTW are there any figures available how often the site is visited with
which browser?

> If you are familiar with m4 or one of it's variations, it would speed
> up the process of conversion if one of these were used to generate the
> actual pages.

Is it the same m4 used for generating the sendmail config files?
Nevertheless I never used it. I'm not sure if I have enough time the
next weeks to get into this. But I might have a brief look at it. Can
anyone tell me where I can find out more about m4?

Somewhere I read that title bars or copyright notes can be created as
"server side includes". I don't know if works the way I think and if is
usable but we might take it into consideration. Does anyone know more
about this.

- Thomas


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