Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by joy: webwml/ hinese/CD/Makefile hinese/CD/vendors/M ...

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:14:10 +0100
Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 02:55:41PM -0800, Debian WWW CVS wrote:
> [the biggest cvs commit I ever did, I think]
> 
> I'll update all the links shortly :)
> 
> Happy New Year, BTW :)
for you too =), just wait for us, we're 2 hours before 2002 
in Brasil now =)

[]s!

-- 
Gustavo Noronha Silva - kov 
*-* -+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+-+
|  .''`.  | Debian GNU/Linux:  |
| : :'  : + Debian BR...: +
| `. `'`  + Q: "Why did the chicken cross the road?"  +
|   `-| A: "Upstream's decision." -- hmh  |
*-* -+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+--+-+-+

Re: new front page, take 1

[Denis Barbier]

On Tue, Jan 01, 2002 at 09:23:15AM +1100, Craig Small wrote:
[...]
> It's good enough for me, I suspect it needs a bit more work but I'm not
> too worried about it.  It's also xhtml.  BTW Dennis, I haven't put your
> no  in  changes yet :/

As you mentioned this problem more than once, I'll say some words about it ;)
Many pages do contain
  ...
or
  ...
tags.  The first idea when adding closing tags is to write
  ...
Unfortunately this is wrong, because  cannot (as defined in HTML specs)
contain  tags, and previous syntax is in fact equivalent to
  ...

I would suggest to recommend validation by wdg-html-validator instead of
weblint, because it is based on a real SGML parser (weblint seems to be a basic
HTML syntax checker).

Denis

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by joy: webwml/ hinese/CD/Makefile hinese/CD/vendors/M ...

[Josip Rodin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 02:55:41PM -0800, Debian WWW CVS wrote:
[the biggest cvs commit I ever did, I think]

I'll update all the links shortly :)

Happy New Year, BTW :)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by csmall: webwml/english/distrib vendors.wml

[Josip Rodin]

On Tue, Jan 01, 2002 at 09:29:06AM +1100, Craig Small wrote:
> > Why did you do that \n\n thing? IMHO it should be done like
> > paragraphs -- with a start tag before the first word and the end tag after
> > the last word.
> > 
> > (Hey, the commit's all about formatting, I'm allowed to nitpick on it! :)
> 
> I actually prefer it that way as
>  
>   blah blah blah
>   blah
>  
>   blH BLAH BLAH
>  
> 
> Reads a lot easier than
> 
>  blah blah blah
>  blah
>  blH BLAH BLAH

I changed it to


  foo bar
  baz quux


  foo bar
  baz quux


:)

> Oh, as Dennis pointed out to me later, my way is broken, eg
> 
> 
>  The type of CD is indicated under each entry.
>  
> 
> Should be
> 
>  The type of CD is indicated under each entry.
> 
> 
> 
> ie unnumbered lists cannot be in paragraphs.

Oh yeah. I might fix that in 2002, didn't make it in 2001 ;)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by csmall: webwml/english/distrib vendors.wml

[Craig Small]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 12:45:14AM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Why did you do that \n\n thing? IMHO it should be done like
> paragraphs -- with a start tag before the first word and the end tag after
> the last word.
> 
> (Hey, the commit's all about formatting, I'm allowed to nitpick on it! :)

I actually prefer it that way as
 
  blah blah blah
  blah
 
  blH BLAH BLAH
 

Reads a lot easier than

 blah blah blah
 blah
 blH BLAH BLAH

I've been re-coding a dynamic website, essentially hand-patching.  I
found that format was the easiest to work out what was going on.

Oh, as Dennis pointed out to me later, my way is broken, eg


 The type of CD is indicated under each entry.
 

Should be

 The type of CD is indicated under each entry.



ie unnumbered lists cannot be in paragraphs.

-- 
Craig Small VK2XLZ  GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE  95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5
Eye-Net Consulting http://www.eye-net.com.au/<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIEEE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Debian developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: new front page, take 1

[Craig Small]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 06:23:04PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 12:12:48PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> > > Which reminds me, I need to bug the admins again (JT?) to change the log
> > > format so we can see useragents. I'm really starting to believe CSS would 
> > > be
> > > acceptable for the vast majority of viewers, but we should have more
> > > numbers.
> > 
> > Tell me the change and I'll do it. If you want me to do it, just yell at
> > me and I'll figure it out myself. :)
> 
> Actually, for testing purposes I tried doing it locally but I can't seem to
> get it done. I tried using 'CustomLog /var/log/apache/access.log combined'
> in /etc/apache/httpd.conf but it didn't change the log file. After
> restarting Apache, of course.

That's the right command, depending on which log file you want to use.
I'm surprised it didn't work though there was some strange issue about
virtual hosts and log formats but that was a while ago and I
don't remember specifics.

You also need a line like:
LogFormat "%h %l %u %t \"%r\" %>s %b \"%{Referer}i\" \"%{User-Agent}i\"" 
combined

It's like common except it has referer and user-agent.

BTW, I think using CSS would be a great idea and would then clear up a
lot of things and make them standardised.  For example if we didn't
particularly like that particular yellow we can change it, also you
start to use things like h1 instead of font which is good for links.

Netscape will bork them up, but then again Netscape screws pretty much
everything up so I wouldn't be too worried about that. My version of
Gaelon messes some things up too, but Galeon is buggy; it renders a page
I know differently every second refresh, nice huh.

A bad example that is almost w3c compliant is at
http://people.debian.org/~csmall/ipv6/

It's good enough for me, I suspect it needs a bit more work but I'm not
too worried about it.  It's also xhtml.  BTW Dennis, I haven't put your
no  in  changes yet :/

  - Craig

-- 
Craig Small VK2XLZ  GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE  95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5
Eye-Net Consulting http://www.eye-net.com.au/<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIEEE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Debian developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by swedish: webwml/swedish/News/weekly/2001/35 index.wml

[Josip Rodin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 09:22:16AM -0800, Debian WWW CVS wrote:
> CVSROOT:  /cvs/webwml
> Module name:  webwml
> Changes by:   swedish 01/12/31 09:22:16
> 
> Added files:
>   swedish/News/weekly/2001/35: index.wml 
> 
> Log message:
>   Initial Swedish translation. (Used German to understand Ante Portas -- 
> latin?)

Yes, it's Latin. There's a saying, "Hannibal ante portas!" (sometimes
s/ante/ad/), literally meaning "Hannibal is at the gates!". It is said that
the ancient Romans were yelling this in fear of the Carthaginian general
Hannibal passed the Alps during the second Punic war, in an attempt to
strike back against the Romans who were endangering Carthage.

The term is used for any kind of imminent danger, AFAIK.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: new front page, take 1

[Peter Karlsson]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Josip Rodin wrote:

> Actually, I think the font size matters more here

Probably. I normally lower the font size quite a lot from the default
settings in browsers, so that I can see more on the screen. 9 point Arial is
usually my default setting. Also note that Opera by default has some exra
margins between elements in  or  lists, which makes the top-right
box higher.

-- 
\\//
peter - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: new front page, take 1

[Peter Karlsson]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Josip Rodin wrote:

> I see. The top two boxes only differ a couple of pixels (moz) one line
> (links) here.

It might also be because I have

TABLE, TR, TH, TD {
width: auto !important;
}

in my personal style-sheet as an override to brain-dead web-duh-signers that
like to use  to layout text to fixed widths that look good to them,
but sucks with my settings.

-- 
\\//
peter - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: new front page, take 1

[Peter Karlsson]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Josip Rodin wrote:

> Well, it's not two-column. It's a matrix of boxes, that's why they have the
> black outline around them.

Yeah, but it's in a sort-of-two-column matrix... The reason why I don't like
"boxes" like this is because they remind me of newspaper (or web)
advertisments, and I have carefully trained my eyes not to read those, which
makes me miss all the important stuff if I browse with my brain in
"automatic" mode...

-- 
\\//
peter - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: new front page, take 1

[Josip Rodin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 12:09:01PM -0500, Jeffrey C. Albro wrote:
> > > http://www.softwolves.pp.se/privat/newfront.png is what I see.
> >
> > I see. The top two boxes only differ a couple of pixels (moz) one line
> > (links) here.
> 
> I have found that different browsers can interpret cellpadding,
> cellspacing and border widths differently.  If you want a truly consistant
> layout you can set all those values to zero and use extra cells with a
> specified pixel width.  It's a bit ungainly but it works.

Actually, I think the font size matters more here -- I use 1024x768-sized
fonts on an 800x600 window :)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: new front page, take 1

[Josip Rodin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 12:12:48PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> > Which reminds me, I need to bug the admins again (JT?) to change the log
> > format so we can see useragents. I'm really starting to believe CSS would be
> > acceptable for the vast majority of viewers, but we should have more
> > numbers.
> 
> Tell me the change and I'll do it. If you want me to do it, just yell at
> me and I'll figure it out myself. :)

Actually, for testing purposes I tried doing it locally but I can't seem to
get it done. I tried using 'CustomLog /var/log/apache/access.log combined'
in /etc/apache/httpd.conf but it didn't change the log file. After
restarting Apache, of course.

But it's somewhere along those lines...

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: new front page, take 1

[James A. Treacy]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 02:53:45PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> 
> Which reminds me, I need to bug the admins again (JT?) to change the log
> format so we can see useragents. I'm really starting to believe CSS would be
> acceptable for the vast majority of viewers, but we should have more
> numbers.
> 
Tell me the change and I'll do it. If you want me to do it, just yell at
me and I'll figure it out myself. :)

-- 
James (Jay) Treacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: new front page, take 1

[Jeffrey C. Albro]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Josip Rodin wrote:

> > http://www.softwolves.pp.se/privat/newfront.png is what I see.
>
> I see. The top two boxes only differ a couple of pixels (moz) one line
> (links) here.

I have found that different browsers can interpret cellpadding,
cellspacing and border widths differently.  If you want a truly consistant
layout you can set all those values to zero and use extra cells with a
specified pixel width.  It's a bit ungainly but it works.

-Jeff

---
Jeff Albro  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Customer Interaction Consultant  Boston, MA

Re: new front page, take 1

[Jeffrey C. Albro]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Peter Karlsson wrote:
> > Left to right. How do you read all other web pages? If anything, _this_ can
> > be assumed...
>
> Since it's two-column, my first assumption is to read the left column and
> then the right column (like a newspaper), but then things come out of order.

*Users don't read webpages*

They scan them.  The proposed format can work not because of the columns,
but because there is a big yellow subject heading that's easy to see, and
then the stuff in the box obviously goes with it.

Remember when I was ranting about putting the /doc pages in more of a list
format?  I finally remembered the short article that spelled everything
out, and gave examples with actual "readability" testing results.

See: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9710a.html

Jakob Nielsen -> Web Usability :: Donald Knuth -> Programming

-Jeff

---
Jeff Albro  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Customer Interaction Consultant  Boston, MA

Re: new front page, take 1

[Josip Rodin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 12:58:16PM +0100, Peter Karlsson wrote:
> > AFAICT the differences in size are rather small. I looked at it in links
> > 80x25 and mozilla 800x600. Can you make a snapshot so I can see if the
> > picture we're seeing is too different?
> 
> http://www.softwolves.pp.se/privat/newfront.png is what I see.

I see. The top two boxes only differ a couple of pixels (moz) one line
(links) here.

> > I thought I couldn't make those things  and Helvetica at the same time,
> > so I didn't try. Are you saying it's possible?
> 
> H1 { display: inline; font: Helvetica; background: black; color: #ffd400; }
> 
> would probably do the trick.

Oh, of course.
/me kicks himself, remembering he uses the same thing on his homepage

Which reminds me, I need to bug the admins again (JT?) to change the log
format so we can see useragents. I'm really starting to believe CSS would be
acceptable for the vast majority of viewers, but we should have more
numbers.

> > Left to right. How do you read all other web pages? If anything, _this_ can
> > be assumed...
> 
> Since it's two-column, my first assumption is to read the left column and
> then the right column (like a newspaper), but then things come out of order.

Well, it's not two-column. It's a matrix of boxes, that's why they have the
black outline around them.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: new front page, take 1

[Josip Rodin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 12:39:29AM -0800, Tor Slettnes wrote:
> I think that perhaps a main feature/section could cover the top/main part
> of the page - maybe with an illustration or so.  For instance, how about
> retaining the "What is Debian?" section on top (as it is now),

You know, that's what my initial redesign sketch used, a few years back. It
was deemed repugnant because of the color scheme, though it seems that part
wasn's such a bad idea after all.

Cf. http://joy.gkvk.hr/greeny/

> with a "Debian" block diagram showing the Linux and HURD kernels at the
> bottom or in the core, with libraries on top, then utilties, GUIs, etc?

Sounds interesting. If you provide such a diagram (in PNG or something)...

> Or perhaps a screenshot of some Debian-specific feature, say, Gnome-APT?

Screenshots tend to take up too much space if not shrinked, or look crappy
and unappealing if shrinked. Once again, if you can provide a sample...

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: new front page, take 1

[Peter Karlsson]

And here are my brain-storming ideas:

* Reinstate the link bar on the left, using the same "mini-page" layout[1],
  but as a tall box extending all the way.

* Keep the little boxes with shorter blurbs (those I like), but only have
  one column of them (takes care of the balancing problem), which re-flows
  properly to the browser width. Make them link to longer texts with "Read
  more".

* Remove the texts in the "News" and "Security alerts" boxes; instead make
  the "captions" into links to their corresponding pages.

* The last box is redundant; put the sitemap in the top navbar (where it
  belongs) alongside the search. These are two most important pages.

* Perhaps we should move the translation links somewhere else, perhaps
  somewhat like the EU does on their pages, where they mostly are in the
  top-right corner (which would bring them close to the mirrors, which I
  like).

-- 
\\//
peter - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[1] In reality I hate "mini-page layouts", but if that's what people want,
well...

Re: new front page, take 1

[Peter Karlsson]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Josip Rodin wrote:

> AFAICT the differences in size are rather small. I looked at it in links
> 80x25 and mozilla 800x600. Can you make a snapshot so I can see if the
> picture we're seeing is too different?

http://www.softwolves.pp.se/privat/newfront.png is what I see.

> I thought I couldn't make those things  and Helvetica at the same time,
> so I didn't try. Are you saying it's possible?

H1 { display: inline; font: Helvetica; background: black; color: #ffd400; }

would probably do the trick.

> Though I can't say much about the red parts at the top -- I just left those
> intact, and worked on index.wml.

Yes, but since it adds more colours it's a bit messy.

> Left to right. How do you read all other web pages? If anything, _this_ can
> be assumed...

Since it's two-column, my first assumption is to read the left column and
then the right column (like a newspaper), but then things come out of order.

-- 
\\//
peter - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by barbier: webwml/. check_trans.pl stattrans.pl touch_tra ...

[Denis Barbier]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 03:00:38AM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:38:25PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
> > > Unfortunately, touch_translations.pl did break latest build :(
> > > It is strange, I checked it worked as expected on w.d.o, will have a
> > > look on it now.
> > 
> > BTW, I believe that this script should not be run after WML compilation,
> > but from /org/www.debian.org/cron/daily_updates before 4webwml.
> > The reason is that current scheme does not work when original document
> > is not English.
> > 
> > Moreover, touch_translations.pl and check_trans.pl do basically perform
> > the exact same task, i.e. comparing revision numbers between original
> > and translation.
> > So unless someone objects, I will certainly add an option -T to
> > check_trans.pl to behave like touch_translations.pl.
> 
> What happened to this?

As for now, nothing.  Thanks for the reminder.

Denis

Re: new front page, take 1

[Tor Slettnes]

> "Josip" == Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Josip> Hi guys, http://joy.gkvk.hr/newfront/
Josip> /me prepares for the barrage

Nice concept.  The different mini-pages is one of the things that has
made the "devel/" page particularly appealing.

Still a bit "boring" and/or "busy" for a front page, though.  I think
that perhaps a main feature/section could cover the top/main part of
the page - maybe with an illustration or so.  For instance, how about
retaining the "What is Debian?" section on top (as it is now), with a
"Debian" block diagram showing the Linux and HURD kernels at the
bottom or in the core, with libraries on top, then utilties, GUIs,
etc?  Or perhaps a screenshot of some Debian-specific feature, say,
Gnome-APT?

The existing mini-pages would fit nicely below the main feature.
The existing quick-links would fit nicely on the left.

-tor


-- 
Får i ulveklær