Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Josip Rodin]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:19:41AM +0100, Jaime E . Villate wrote:
[links pointing to *.xy.html]
> That would be very helpful; sometimes I want to see how the site looks in
> Spanish or Portuguese, without having to change the English default in the
> browser.

It's still trivial to change and revert language settings in most browsers.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Denis Barbier]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:20:32PM +0200, peter karlsson wrote:
> Denis Barbier:
> 
> > Where in the proposal did you read that missing links should point to
> > English pages?
> 
> I didn't, but since a missing page would at least take me to another
> language, then all links from *that point on* will use that language, until
> I get to another page that is not available in my language.

Yes, this is indeed the key point.
To summarize, current settings harm people who have no control on their
language settings, whereas this proposal cause problems to those relying on
content negotiation to choose between several languages.  As I don't fall
into any of these conditions,  I do not want to take position ;)

Denis

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[peter karlsson]

Denis Barbier:

> Where in the proposal did you read that missing links should point to
> English pages?

I didn't, but since a missing page would at least take me to another
language, then all links from *that point on* will use that language, until
I get to another page that is not available in my language.

-- 
\\//
peter - http://www.softwolves.pp.se/

  Statement concerning unsolicited e-mail according to Swedish law:
  http://www.softwolves.pp.se/peter/reklampost.html

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Denis Barbier]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:44:55AM +0200, peter karlsson wrote:
> Gerfried Fuchs:
> 
> > It would be a counter-work against content negotiation, e.g. for
> > people that have something like de,fr,en or such setups.
> 
> Exactly. I have my Accept-Language set to "sv,nb,no,da,nn,en,de", and I
> expect that for every link the documents are tried in that order (Swedish,
> Norwegian bokmål, unspecified Norwegian, Danish, Norwegian nynorsk, English,
> German). If I was to go from a link on a Swedish page to an English version
> when there was a Norwegian or Danish version available, that would be *very*
> bad.
[...]

Where in the proposal did you read that missing links should point to English
pages?

Denis

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[peter karlsson]

Gerfried Fuchs:

> It would be a counter-work against content negotiation, e.g. for
> people that have something like de,fr,en or such setups.

Exactly. I have my Accept-Language set to "sv,nb,no,da,nn,en,de", and I
expect that for every link the documents are tried in that order (Swedish,
Norwegian bokmål, unspecified Norwegian, Danish, Norwegian nynorsk, English,
German). If I was to go from a link on a Swedish page to an English version
when there was a Norwegian or Danish version available, that would be *very*
bad.

(The Swedish, Norwegian and Danish languages are *very* similar, so I prefer
to read any of those to English, if possible).

So, no, making languages stick in the manner that has been requested in this
thread simply does *not* work.

-- 
\\//
peter - http://www.softwolves.pp.se/

  Statement concerning unsolicited e-mail according to Swedish law:
  http://www.softwolves.pp.se/peter/reklampost.html

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Denis Barbier]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:13:48AM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> * Jaime E . Villate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001-10-18 08:19]:
> > If this had been translated rather as:
> >   "http://www.debian.org/index.es.html";>Debian es un sistema
> >operativo (SO) libre, para su 
> > computadora."
> > 
> > one would end up getting Spanish pages, when following the links, regardless
> > of browser settings.
> 
>  and regardless of translation status, right.  This proposal makes
> it nearly impossible to maintain the pages, because for each new
> translated page one would have to scan through all the other pages if
> there are translations available.

Indeed all pages would have to be scanned, but I can't see why this makes 
pages unmaintainable.

[...]
> > Even without changing anything in the translations, when
> > the html pages are build links like intro/free could be substituted by
> > intro/free.{LANG}.html, if that page exists.
> 
>  Feel free to submit a patch to make this work.  Could sound
> interesting, but please remember:  Once there is a page not translated,
> you fall back to the english pages and will _stick_ with the english
> pages, unless you don't change to that in the english versions of the
> files.  It would be a counter-work against content negotiation, e.g. for
> people that have something like de,fr,en or such setups.

No, Jaime suggests to make changes only if translation exists, so if it
does not, content negotiation is performed just as today.

>  So your sugguestion might sound nice on the first glance, but would
> only work correct if _all_ the pages are translated - which they are not
> for even a single language.

I disagree, his suggestion would work if someone wanted to implement it ;)
Basically compilation would require 3 phases:
  a) wml --> html
  b) URLs substitutions in HTML pages 
  c) installation of HTML pages
And when a translation is removed ar added, all pages of this language (and
only this one) have to be updated.

Denis

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Jaime E . Villate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001-10-18 08:19]:
> If this had been translated rather as:
>   "http://www.debian.org/index.es.html";>Debian es un sistema
>operativo (SO) libre, para su 
> computadora."
> 
> one would end up getting Spanish pages, when following the links, regardless
> of browser settings.

 and regardless of translation status, right.  This proposal makes
it nearly impossible to maintain the pages, because for each new
translated page one would have to scan through all the other pages if
there are translations available.  Not to forget that maybe a translated
file might be removed.

 If you change the scripts to address that problem we might discuss if
it is a good idea - until there is no solution for that I personally
would vote against changes in that direction.

> Even without changing anything in the translations, when
> the html pages are build links like intro/free could be substituted by
> intro/free.{LANG}.html, if that page exists.

 Feel free to submit a patch to make this work.  Could sound
interesting, but please remember:  Once there is a page not translated,
you fall back to the english pages and will _stick_ with the english
pages, unless you don't change to that in the english versions of the
files.  It would be a counter-work against content negotiation, e.g. for
people that have something like de,fr,en or such setups.

 So your sugguestion might sound nice on the first glance, but would
only work correct if _all_ the pages are translated - which they are not
for even a single language.

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
 You never learn anything  |   /"\   ,'~~.
   by doing it right.  |  / chaos \  alfie.ist.org   |o ?~\
   -- unknown  |  \inside!/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  /_   ~<\
   |   \_/   \__,~ \>

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Jaime E . Villate]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 08:26:16PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> * Peter Junge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001-10-16 14:53]:
> > generally it's a nice feature to come up with the i18n settings of the 
> > OS. But after selecting a different language this should overrule the 
> > script for the rest of the session. In the moment I'm using a Korean 
> 
>  That is not possible due to the fact that they are static pages, not
> dynamic ones.  And that won't change just due to this wish.

I disagree. You don't have to use dynamic pages to do that. Let's look for
instance to a portion of english/index.wml:
  "http://www.debian.org/";>Debian is a
   free operating system (OS) for your computer."

And the equivalent portion in spanish/index.wml:
  "http://www.debian.org/";>Debian es un sistema operativo
   (SO) libre, para su computadora."

If this had been translated rather as:
  "http://www.debian.org/index.es.html";>Debian es un sistema
   operativo (SO) libre, para su computadora."

one would end up getting Spanish pages, when following the links, regardless
of browser settings. Even without changing anything in the translations, when
the html pages are build links like intro/free could be substituted by
intro/free.{LANG}.html, if that page exists.

That would be very helpful; sometimes I want to see how the site looks in
Spanish or Portuguese, without having to change the English default in the
browser.

Regards,
Jaime

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Peter Junge]

Hi all,

i guess anybody who wrote me is on the debian-www list. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 10/16/01, 8:26:16 PM, Gerfried Fuchs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote regarding Re: 
Bug(?!) in debian.org:


> * Peter Junge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001-10-16 14:53]:
> > generally it's a nice feature to come up with the i18n settings of the
> > OS. But after selecting a different language this should overrule the
> > script for the rest of the session. In the moment I'm using a Korean

>  That is not possible due to the fact that they are static pages, not
> dynamic ones.  And that won't change just due to this wish.

As somebody working on quality assurance I would always vote for hard 
settings (choosing language by hand) should overrule soft settings 
(scripts). But after a look on the HTML code you return I think I 
understand what's happening. And now I agree that your way is the better 
way because 'fixing' the issue would mean to return scripts and cookies 
to the browser. (Or am I wrong?)

> > Linux but only for testing localized versions of StarOffice. Being a
> > native German i would like to browse your pages in German or English but
> > every link I follow falls back to Korean. OK, you might say, start a

>  So you are using StarOffice as your browser?  

NO, i normally don't use StarOffice for browsing and I'm not gonna 
recommend our browser to anybody else. (And I don't even think that I 
gonna have a chat with my manager about it because I'm posting this on my 
Sun account. ;-)

> Each web-Browser I've
> stumbled upon yet was able to set the languages the user wants -
> completely seperated from the locale settings.  Unfortunately it isn't
> documented on <http://www.debian.de/intro/cn.de.html> what to do with
> StarOffice, but you should get the idea - it should be in the
> Browser-Preferences.
> If you know how to change that within StarOffice it would be great if
> you could write something down for the pages to be added there - take
> the descriptions for the other browsers as a guideline for how you
> it should be.

I'm not working on internet related topics but AFAIK our browser is no 
real browser but a graphical web page editor that can browse HTML up to 
standard 3.2. The language settings are normally read from StarOffice 
itself. Using any 32bit M$ Windows you can plug the IE installed on the 
system, means settings are called from IE internet options.

> > console, change the locales and start the browser from there. But this
> > seems to be to complicated and there maybe also people in a alien
> > environment (e.g. an internet cafe in Seoul) who don't know how to
> > workaround.

>  Would only be possible with dynamic pages that parse the request uri,
> and that would just raise the load on the pages, for no gain.

Yes, I agree.

>  HTH,
> Alfie
> --
>  You never learn anything  |   /"""""\   ,'~~.
>by doing it right.  |  / chaos \  alfie.ist.org   |o ?~\
>-- unknown  |  \inside!/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  /_   ~<\
>|   \_/   \__,~ \>

Best regards, Peter 

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[peter karlsson]

Gerfried Fuchs:

>  So you are using StarOffice as your browser?  Each web-Browser I've
> stumbled upon yet was able to set the languages the user wants -
> completely seperated from the locale settings.

Star Office seems to be an exception, however. At least I cannot find any
settings in Star Office 5.2.

-- 
\\//
peter - http://www.softwolves.pp.se/

  Statement concerning unsolicited e-mail according to Swedish law:
  http://www.softwolves.pp.se/peter/reklampost.html

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Peter Junge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001-10-16 14:53]:
> generally it's a nice feature to come up with the i18n settings of the 
> OS. But after selecting a different language this should overrule the 
> script for the rest of the session. In the moment I'm using a Korean 

 That is not possible due to the fact that they are static pages, not
dynamic ones.  And that won't change just due to this wish.

> Linux but only for testing localized versions of StarOffice. Being a 
> native German i would like to browse your pages in German or English but 
> every link I follow falls back to Korean. OK, you might say, start a 

 So you are using StarOffice as your browser?  Each web-Browser I've
stumbled upon yet was able to set the languages the user wants -
completely seperated from the locale settings.  Unfortunately it isn't
documented on  what to do with
StarOffice, but you should get the idea - it should be in the
Browser-Preferences.

 If you know how to change that within StarOffice it would be great if
you could write something down for the pages to be added there - take
the descriptions for the other browsers as a guideline for how you
it should be.

> console, change the locales and start the browser from there. But this 
> seems to be to complicated and there maybe also people in a alien 
> environment (e.g. an internet cafe in Seoul) who don't know how to 
> workaround.

 Would only be possible with dynamic pages that parse the request uri,
and that would just raise the load on the pages, for no gain.

 HTH,
Alfie
-- 
 You never learn anything  |   /"\   ,'~~.
   by doing it right.  |  / chaos \  alfie.ist.org   |o ?~\
   -- unknown  |  \inside!/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  /_   ~<\
   |   \_/   \__,~ \>

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Gustavo Noronha Silva]

Em Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:53:43 GMT
Peter Junge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu:

> Hi,
> 
> every link I follow falls back to Korean. OK, you might say, start a 
> console, change the locales and start the browser from there. But this 
> seems to be to complicated and there maybe also people in a alien 
> environment (e.g. an internet cafe in Seoul) who don't know how to 
> workaround.
that seems to be a bug in your browser, it should not follow locales,
but a languages preference for the browser... see www.debian.org/intro/cn.html

[]s!

-- 
Gustavo Noronha Silva - kov 
**
|  .''`.  | Debian GNU/Linux: |
| : :'  : | Debian BR...:    |
| `. `'`  |  Be Happy! Be FREE!  |
|   `-| "Think globally, act locally!"   |
**

Re: Bug(?!) in debian.org

[James A. Treacy]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 02:53:43PM +, Peter Junge wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> generally it's a nice feature to come up with the i18n settings of the 
> OS. But after selecting a different language this should overrule the 
> script for the rest of the session. In the moment I'm using a Korean 
> Linux but only for testing localized versions of StarOffice. Being a 
> native German i would like to browse your pages in German or English but 
> every link I follow falls back to Korean. OK, you might say, start a 
> console, change the locales and start the browser from there. But this 
> seems to be to complicated and there maybe also people in a alien 
> environment (e.g. an internet cafe in Seoul) who don't know how to 
> workaround.
> 
Fix the default language for your browser. It should be 'en', not
'en-us' or one of the other country variants. See
http://www.debian.org/intro/cn.en.html for details.

-- 
James (Jay) Treacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Bug(?!) in debian.org

[Peter Junge]

Hi,

generally it's a nice feature to come up with the i18n settings of the 
OS. But after selecting a different language this should overrule the 
script for the rest of the session. In the moment I'm using a Korean 
Linux but only for testing localized versions of StarOffice. Being a 
native German i would like to browse your pages in German or English but 
every link I follow falls back to Korean. OK, you might say, start a 
console, change the locales and start the browser from there. But this 
seems to be to complicated and there maybe also people in a alien 
environment (e.g. an internet cafe in Seoul) who don't know how to 
workaround.

Best regards, Peter 

*
Peter Junge Tel: (+49 40) 23 646 639
Quality Assurance   Fax: (+49 40) 23 646 550
Star Office GmbHmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sachsenfeld 4   http://www.sun.com/staroffice/
D-20097 Hamburg
*