Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 10:39:53PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > > Am Sonntag, 21.11.04 um 17:39 Uhr schrieb Denis Barbier: > > >The main navbar is currently not a list, why did you turn it into ? > >If you keep it as is, it is certainly possible to have layout > >unmodified > >for text browsers. > > Forgot to answer that. According to accessibility guidelines it is a > bad idea to put something, that is a list (for example a menu or > selection) into one line. Blind persons "see" just words and phrases in > a line. Again this is off-topic. If you want to promote CSS, let replace tables by CSS, then everybody can make his opinion, and if there are not much complaints, let's go further. > Another Thing are the remaining tables, now that I have included the > css for header and footer: > > According to accessibility guidelines, tables should _only_ be used > where one has a real table in it and _not_ for layout boxes. But the > main page and others are full of tables, which have only one sense: > making a layout. Another thing is, that tables cannot be parsed as good > as lists by other programs - not only by readers. [...] I am afraid that there is some misunderstanding. HTML pages are generated from templates, e.g. the main layout comes from http://cvs.debian.org/webwml/english/template/debian/mainpage.wml?cvsroot=webwml If you are able to replace tables and font commands in this file by CSS, all pages will take these changes into account. Of course some other files have also to be modified in the same directory, but it can be done later if we have no time just now. It looks like you already modified HTML pages, so I can grab your changes and propose a patch against this file, let me know where I can download your modified main page. Denis
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Sonntag, 21.11.04 um 17:39 Uhr schrieb Denis Barbier: The main navbar is currently not a list, why did you turn it into ? If you keep it as is, it is certainly possible to have layout unmodified for text browsers. Forgot to answer that. According to accessibility guidelines it is a bad idea to put something, that is a list (for example a menu or selection) into one line. Blind persons "see" just words and phrases in a line. Maybe, _you_ find it better looking, but those having no or very bad sight will find a one line menu or on in a table confusing. If necessary, I can post some links about accessibility. People having less sight problems may use a css browser. It seems to be quiet about Debian accessibility now, but we should have a focus on accessibility, though. Everyone should. Everyone can be the next. Another Thing are the remaining tables, now that I have included the css for header and footer: According to accessibility guidelines, tables should _only_ be used where one has a real table in it and _not_ for layout boxes. But the main page and others are full of tables, which have only one sense: making a layout. Another thing is, that tables cannot be parsed as good as lists by other programs - not only by readers. My suggestion: - For the main Menu, I would like to insert a line "Main menu" in front of the menu list. That looks nicer in W3M and lynx. It will be invisible with css (class hidecss). - The left menu could be put as a list in a box at the left (there is such a box prepared in the css, but white now. - The footer on the main page should be without tables, too and look like the other pages already do. About the other tables like on the devel main page, I have still no idea. It is possible to realise that with divs. My personal wish: I would like to have a page menu, where needed (like the devel page). The box on the left could be used for that. For now, I will make an example for the homepage with full css. But then you Debian people will have to decide, if you want me to go on. The work after that will take much more time than I am willing to put into the dustbin. For now my changes can be applied without any problem. As far as I have seen, there are no errors left. greetings Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 05:39:28PM +0100, Denis Barbier wrote: > On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 02:56:33AM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > [...] > > My question again: Is it accaptable for you, what I have schown on the > > examples? > > > > One of the examples has the same look as current pages on graphical > > browsers, but will have _no_ lists in _one_ line for test browsers, > > which is assumed. > > The main navbar is currently not a list, why did you turn it into ? > If you keep it as is, it is certainly possible to have layout unmodified > for text browsers. And here is the main typical mistake. HTML code is NOT for layout. CSS is. In this case, whether you like it or not, the navbar is a list of navigation items, therefore, it has to be a list. Mike
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 09:10:59PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: [...] > I fetched the cvs tree and made local changes. Takes a while for a make > on my local computer. As I am said there will be enough space on our > server, I may put the results online. > > Currently I am making only those changes, that a necessary for the > header and footer going css. It is not quite clean and If you like > that, I would need some help to find out, where those things are to > change, I did not find the source for. > > If there are scripts, which are not in the source tree and not run by > make or make install, I'll surely will not notice, if they fail. > Another thing is, that I am not sure, that I can built languages like > Chinese on Debian stable. IMO building only English pages is fine. Some pages need data fetched from scripts found in http://cvs.debian.org/cron/?cvsroot=webwml Scripts under parts/ are run before every build. lessoften only daily. So do not be afraid if some pages do not build cleanly, and do not lose your time trying to fix them, it isn't worth. > If someone wants to have a look later (not online yet): The pages will > be at > > http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/dwww/ > screenshots will be at > http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/screenshots/ > > hope I get something ready tonight. Great, please send here your patches against english/template/debian when they are ready. I reviewed all *.pl files under webwml, and english/News/weekly/makemail.pl is the only script parsing generated HTML files, so we have to check that your changes do not break this script. We must also check that these changes do not break nm.debian.org, it include files from the webwml tree. Denis
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Sonntag, 21.11.04 um 17:39 Uhr schrieb Denis Barbier: HTML pages are generated from templates and some scripts, as described in http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ Modifying the generated HTML pages to replace tables by CSS is quite trivial, I fetched the cvs tree and made local changes. Takes a while for a make on my local computer. As I am said there will be enough space on our server, I may put the results online. Currently I am making only those changes, that a necessary for the header and footer going css. It is not quite clean and If you like that, I would need some help to find out, where those things are to change, I did not find the source for. If there are scripts, which are not in the source tree and not run by make or make install, I'll surely will not notice, if they fail. Another thing is, that I am not sure, that I can built languages like Chinese on Debian stable. If someone wants to have a look later (not online yet): The pages will be at http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/dwww/ screenshots will be at http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/screenshots/ hope I get something ready tonight. cu Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 02:56:33AM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: [...] > My question again: Is it accaptable for you, what I have schown on the > examples? > > One of the examples has the same look as current pages on graphical > browsers, but will have _no_ lists in _one_ line for test browsers, > which is assumed. The main navbar is currently not a list, why did you turn it into ? If you keep it as is, it is certainly possible to have layout unmodified for text browsers. [...] > In the cvs tree, I have found things about xhtml. That makes me ask: > How will the move work, as is valid in HTML transitional and > strict but not in xhtml. So all tags without an endtag have to be > replaced at once, when moving to xhtml. In addition the page delivery > has not to be text/html only. Beside that IE has problems with correct > mime type for xhtml (which I do not carte much) that gives a lot of > problems. Is moving to xhtml insead of html strict such an advantage, > that debian people do not care these problems? xhtml does not make a > differenc to css usage as far as I know, though. Your last sentence is the key point; XHTML has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, so do not discuss this issue here and let us focus on CSS. HTML pages are generated from templates and some scripts, as described in http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ Modifying the generated HTML pages to replace tables by CSS is quite trivial, but as you notice the main problem is to have these changes accepted. If you have access to different browsers, you may put screenshots online to show that rendering is identical. Martin Schulze had a valid argument, some scripts are parsing HTML or source files. It is likely that they won't notice the move to CSS, and I will check later that this is indeed the case. Denis
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 02:56:33AM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > Annotatation: > In the cvs tree, I have found things about xhtml. That makes me ask: > How will the move work, as is valid in HTML transitional and > strict but not in xhtml. So all tags without an endtag have to be > replaced at once, when moving to xhtml. for file in *.html; do xmllint --xmlout --html $file > xhtml/$file; done > In addition the page delivery > has not to be text/html only. It is wrong. xhtml 1.0 pages SHOULD be served as application/xhtml+xml but can be served as text/html for compatibility purpose. xhtml 1.1, on the other hand MUST be served as application/xhtml+xml. Mike
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Samstag, 20.11.04 um 15:04 Uhr schrieb Denis Barbier: We could provide a language selection form to switch between available translated pages, similar to mirror selection. That is one of my ideas, to. But that needs a script for the form. Not really a problem, but I do not want to make work on that, if css is unaccaptable. My question again: Is it accaptable for you, what I have schown on the examples? One of the examples has the same look as current pages on graphical browsers, but will have _no_ lists in _one_ line for test browsers, which is assumed. Removing tables where they are used for layout purposes makes code cleaner and cannot break screeen readers or text browsers. And that increases accesibility a lot. CSS moves all layout to one CSS file, while the code (HTML or XHMTL) is in the other files or templates. That will not make the cvs tree much smaller, but the pages themselves. If CSS is used, it is not necessary to have another look and feel for the pages. Only a few old browsers will get the same text pages as lynx, w3m and others get. If you like my examples, I may try to make patches and see, how CSS can be introduced without breaking things. All files are in http://www. witch.westfalen.de/debian/ Files: support (the original pages as by debian.org delivered index.html - A full css version of my dict index page in debian look HTML4.01 strict http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/support-debian.html - Debian support page, where only the header is changed. Using the same css as index.html but still HTML 4 transitional as the page I got from debian.org. It looks like the debian pages, but the header si fully css without tables. code reduction per page is 800k. http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/support-debian2-2.html - is an example with removed gifs in the navigation bar and put a blang one to css. This version also has the language list as list for lynx (I did not test this version with all browsers yet and I am not lucky with my current results. but it has 1.9 k less code but the original page. other files: support-debian2.html - html4.01 strict, 1.2k saved support-debian3.html - server selection and language list fully removed, 4.8k saved (only built to see, how much boths parts are support-debian2-1.html same as 2-2 but the languages are still in one line for text browsers. Annotatation: In the cvs tree, I have found things about xhtml. That makes me ask: How will the move work, as is valid in HTML transitional and strict but not in xhtml. So all tags without an endtag have to be replaced at once, when moving to xhtml. In addition the page delivery has not to be text/html only. Beside that IE has problems with correct mime type for xhtml (which I do not carte much) that gives a lot of problems. Is moving to xhtml insead of html strict such an advantage, that debian people do not care these problems? xhtml does not make a differenc to css usage as far as I know, though. greetings Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 10:13:58PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote: > Mike Hommey wrote: [...] > > 1. That's still available on http://glandium.org/debian/www.html though > >the url might change in the near future since i'm heavily reorganising > >my website. It seems I did that a year ago, according to the dates of > >security alerts. > > The list of translations is unacceptable long due to the vertical list in > lynx. We could provide a language selection form to switch between available translated pages, similar to mirror selection. Denis
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 10:13:58PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote: > Mike Hommey wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 01:38:00PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > > > For now you may try http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/index12.html > > > with lynx and css browser, to see, how things can be in text version > > > but not visible in css version (Quick site navigation). > > > > Well, that's cool, but now comes the stupid question: > > While at it, why not just change the whole look ? > > If you change everything, people will be confused and probably don't > like it. Please use small steps if at all. > > Please also take into account that the entire design needs to be placed > into the templates and not the content files, that wml is used, that > there may be tools that parse the website (/News/weekly/makemail.pl > comes into my mind, and if you break that, a lot of people will hate > you) And you know what ? Making the code cleaner will *help* website that parse the content. > > 1. That's still available on http://glandium.org/debian/www.html though > >the url might change in the near future since i'm heavily reorganising > >my website. It seems I did that a year ago, according to the dates of > >security alerts. > > The list of translations is unacceptable long due to the vertical list in > lynx. The *list* of translations is a *list*. It therefore has to be a *list*. It just doesn't have its place on every single page. Mike
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Hi joey! Am Freitag, 19.11.04 um 22:13 Uhr schrieb Martin Schulze: The list of translations is unacceptable long due to the vertical list in lynx. There is another not fully revised version of the support page, making a normal ist out of it for non-css browsers: http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/support-debian2-2.html Here I have changed the header a bit, too, using only one gif for the blue buttons (which is quite a difficult problem as it seems). For the WML and templates: To see, what has to be done, I need some help on getting an Idea how to patch or what has to be changed as I am not a DD. I do not think, it is impossible. greetings Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Freitag, 19.11.04 um 03:34 Uhr schrieb Mike Hommey: Tables are valid anywhere. Their use for layout is just not recommended, but that applies to transitional and strict. Answered to Frank already: Ther is a difference between just tables and _the_ tables - which are not valid HTML 4.01 strict. I think it's much more important to revise the whole html code before hand, it will prevent to have to do the css work twice. The process of moving to clean code will take time anyways, and cannot be done, IMHO, You make the second step first: reduced code is much easier to change, and CSS reduces code. without having a staging area for test, i.e. not putting changes online before everything is done. The header for example goes the same way everywhere. It is easy to test and incluse css there, first only the header declarations used. Next step could be the footer, which you want to remove mostly. And when i'm talking clean code, I don't only imply using fluid, table-less design, but much more work, being having semantic html structure, and no more than what is semantically needed. You cannot remove tables without having a css for it. Or do you want to make a text site as for lynx before moving css? To remove the tables, which have the most ugly code, you have to have css. Or otherwise you will have to change the table code as a whole, which is much more work than changing a css file. The only thing that causes user agents (well, _a_ user agent, being IE6) to go to quirks mode when xhtml is used is the presence of the xml declaration on top of the file, which is anyway not a MUST. Does lynx support xhtml quite good, even in Debian stable? Do screen readers? Going to xhtml is a quite different discussion. It is not a must to use css. And if you want to discuss and change to before having CSS, nothing will ever happen, I think. It will take more time than a new debian release. Another think: XHTML and HTML have different syntax for things like and , so you cannot change the pages step by step, You will have to do it at once and change the header and the delivery (not als text/html only) at the same time. There are a lot of reasons as to why to go to xhtml instead html, including the fact that it's much easier to parse xml than sgml for later uses. If it so easy, why does w3c validator not fully support validation yet? The language selection for those, wanting to change to another language manually makes about 2.5 k for the support page. I do not think, that this is much to care. But that is another discussion and has nothing to do with moving to css. Language selection + Mirror selection is between 5 and 6KB. On a 16KB page (such as debian's home page) it is more than negligible. for the main support page, which has much translations, it is about 2.5 k, which is much less as the home page. I assume, the average size is not more than on the support page. And the addional size is reduced, if css is used instead of tables for the header. The list is a part of being Debian user friendly. But that too is another discussion and removing it independent from using CSS. Original size of support page: 15225 I reduced it to between 14424 and 13360 byte only by using css. But as that, you want to remove is nothing lelated to CSS, it would be better to open your own thread on removing the language list from pages. greetings Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Mike Hommey wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 01:38:00PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > > For now you may try http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/index12.html > > with lynx and css browser, to see, how things can be in text version > > but not visible in css version (Quick site navigation). > > Well, that's cool, but now comes the stupid question: > While at it, why not just change the whole look ? If you change everything, people will be confused and probably don't like it. Please use small steps if at all. Please also take into account that the entire design needs to be placed into the templates and not the content files, that wml is used, that there may be tools that parse the website (/News/weekly/makemail.pl comes into my mind, and if you break that, a lot of people will hate you) > 1. That's still available on http://glandium.org/debian/www.html though >the url might change in the near future since i'm heavily reorganising >my website. It seems I did that a year ago, according to the dates of >security alerts. The list of translations is unacceptable long due to the vertical list in lynx. Regards, Joey -- MIME - broken solution for a broken design. -- Ralf Baechle
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 06:07:55PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > Am Freitag, 19.11.04 um 01:00 Uhr schrieb Frank Lichtenheld: > > >This sentence is either false or I misunderstand it... HTML 4 strict > >has tables, too ;) > > Yes, it has. I wrote _the_ tables and not tables. So it was obviously the latter ;) And of course you're right that the current HTML is far away from validating as strict. Gruesse, -- Frank Lichtenheld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www: http://www.djpig.de/
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Freitag, 19.11.04 um 01:00 Uhr schrieb Frank Lichtenheld: This sentence is either false or I misunderstand it... HTML 4 strict has tables, too ;) Yes, it has. I wrote _the_ tables and not tables. You may ask the validator yourself to see, what would be wrong with current html code, if it was strict DOCTYPE. greetings Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 09:40:59PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, 18.11.04 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Mike Hommey: > > >My idea would be to go to clean html code first, and then tweak the > >visual. > > That is a lot of double work. > > The tables are only valid as html transitional, not strict. Tables are valid anywhere. Their use for layout is just not recommended, but that applies to transitional and strict. > Better: > > 1. Making a simple css layout > 2. removing the tables using the css stylesheets. > 3. clean up the remaining code to go to strict (much less work as > tables and other layout hacks are already removed then). > 4. Making nicer CSS - which is only one file then. > > If you want to clear up code first, you will have no chance to get rid > of the tables in that step without getting rather oldfashioned layout > as in my own homepage. The only things, I have seen, which should be > changed whenever seen: > - adding missing end-tags > - discard the attibutes behind hr (they are simple defaults) > If the code is fully revised _before_ having a css stylesheet, all the > tables have to be made valid for strict and in a second step they will > be removed afterwords. - frustrating useless work, I think. I think it's much more important to revise the whole html code before hand, it will prevent to have to do the css work twice. The process of moving to clean code will take time anyways, and cannot be done, IMHO, without having a staging area for test, i.e. not putting changes online before everything is done. And when i'm talking clean code, I don't only imply using fluid, table-less design, but much more work, being having semantic html structure, and no more than what is semantically needed. > There are lots of discussions about, why to stay with HTML 4 strict > instead of using XHTML. And personally I do not see any advantage of > XHTML which may justify additional work and maybe errors causing user > agents to go to quirks mode. The only thing that causes user agents (well, _a_ user agent, being IE6) to go to quirks mode when xhtml is used is the presence of the xml declaration on top of the file, which is anyway not a MUST. There are a lot of reasons as to why to go to xhtml instead html, including the fact that it's much easier to parse xml than sgml for later uses. > The language selection for those, wanting to change to another language > manually makes about 2.5 k for the support page. I do not think, that > this is much to care. But that is another discussion and has nothing to > do with moving to css. Language selection + Mirror selection is between 5 and 6KB. On a 16KB page (such as debian's home page) it is more than negligible. Mike
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 09:40:59PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, 18.11.04 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Mike Hommey: > > >My idea would be to go to clean html code first, and then tweak the > >visual. > > That is a lot of double work. > > The tables are only valid as html transitional, not strict. This sentence is either false or I misunderstand it... HTML 4 strict has tables, too ;) Gruesse, -- Frank Lichtenheld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www: http://www.djpig.de/
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Donnerstag, 18.11.04 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Mike Hommey: My idea would be to go to clean html code first, and then tweak the visual. That is a lot of double work. The tables are only valid as html transitional, not strict. Better: 1. Making a simple css layout 2. removing the tables using the css stylesheets. 3. clean up the remaining code to go to strict (much less work as tables and other layout hacks are already removed then). 4. Making nicer CSS - which is only one file then. If you want to clear up code first, you will have no chance to get rid of the tables in that step without getting rather oldfashioned layout as in my own homepage. The only things, I have seen, which should be changed whenever seen: - adding missing end-tags - discard the attibutes behind hr (they are simple defaults) If the code is fully revised _before_ having a css stylesheet, all the tables have to be made valid for strict and in a second step they will be removed afterwords. - frustrating useless work, I think. There are lots of discussions about, why to stay with HTML 4 strict instead of using XHTML. And personally I do not see any advantage of XHTML which may justify additional work and maybe errors causing user agents to go to quirks mode. The language selection for those, wanting to change to another language manually makes about 2.5 k for the support page. I do not think, that this is much to care. But that is another discussion and has nothing to do with moving to css. cu Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 10:53:40PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: (...) > Do not think they must be there. I did it only to show, that it is > possible to go to css instead of tables without changing the outfit. I personally think the current outfit is all but sexy and should be changed. > Yes, that is exactly, what I wanted. If there are suggestions, I can > make an example. But another Idea is to go to css first and then change > layout in a second step. My idea would be to go to clean html code first, and then tweak the visual. > >When I tried a redesign of the debian home page a while ago[1], > > That looks nice, too. May I ask why you did not success? I didn't have time to go further. > > i've hit > >some issues that might be worth considering, such as page size. There > >are stuff in pages that are likely to be useful in less than 1% of the > >cases that eat a huge amount of its size, such as "Select a server near > >you" and the full language list. > > I think, there can be a solution with combination of css and language > negotiation. > But I really do not think, that the lists are a real problem, even id I > would make a selection form out of the lanuage list, too. They are *huge* they are a page weight problem. > >Then, the next step would be to decide how to do it, and if i recall > >correctly, somebody posted here a list of stuff to do for a transition > >to xhtml from the current stuff. > > xhtml has some problems at all: No complete validation at w3c, syntax > change against html and some browsers falling back to html 2.0, if > xhtml is incorrect. > Personally I'd prefer html 4 strict. html 4 strict and xhtml are the same, with a very few exceptions. converting from one to the other is a matter of using xmllint to format the code accordingly. > As the site is very large, it would not be a good idea to change > everything at the same time. Migration to either HTML 4.0 strict or > XHTML is independent from moving to css layout instead of tables. Moving to css layout instead of tables implies changing enough that it makes no difference whether it is xhtml or html 4 strict. There's no hurry to move to css layout if the html code isn't cleaned-up. Mike
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Mittwoch, 17.11.04 um 15:06 Uhr schrieb Mike Hommey: Well, that's cool, but now comes the stupid question: While at it, why not just change the whole look ? It is not on me to decide that. I am not a DD - user only, even if since more than eight years (pre 1.1). And why absolutely keep images for the "menu" ? Do not think they must be there. I did it only to show, that it is possible to go to css instead of tables without changing the outfit. I think before going too far on css stuff and code change, it would be worth talking about it, talking about what to put, how and where. Yes, that is exactly, what I wanted. If there are suggestions, I can make an example. But another Idea is to go to css first and then change layout in a second step. When I tried a redesign of the debian home page a while ago[1], That looks nice, too. May I ask why you did not success? i've hit some issues that might be worth considering, such as page size. There are stuff in pages that are likely to be useful in less than 1% of the cases that eat a huge amount of its size, such as "Select a server near you" and the full language list. I think, there can be a solution with combination of css and language negotiation. But I really do not think, that the lists are a real problem, even id I would make a selection form out of the lanuage list, too. Then, the next step would be to decide how to do it, and if i recall correctly, somebody posted here a list of stuff to do for a transition to xhtml from the current stuff. xhtml has some problems at all: No complete validation at w3c, syntax change against html and some browsers falling back to html 2.0, if xhtml is incorrect. Personally I'd prefer html 4 strict. As the site is very large, it would not be a good idea to change everything at the same time. Migration to either HTML 4.0 strict or XHTML is independent from moving to css layout instead of tables. The example of the debian support page changes only the included header, nothing else. greetings Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 01:38:00PM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > For now you may try http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/index12.html > with lynx and css browser, to see, how things can be in text version > but not visible in css version (Quick site navigation). Well, that's cool, but now comes the stupid question: While at it, why not just change the whole look ? And why absolutely keep images for the "menu" ? I think before going too far on css stuff and code change, it would be worth talking about it, talking about what to put, how and where. When I tried a redesign of the debian home page a while ago[1], i've hit some issues that might be worth considering, such as page size. There are stuff in pages that are likely to be useful in less than 1% of the cases that eat a huge amount of its size, such as "Select a server near you" and the full language list. Then, the next step would be to decide how to do it, and if i recall correctly, somebody posted here a list of stuff to do for a transition to xhtml from the current stuff. Mike 1. That's still available on http://glandium.org/debian/www.html though the url might change in the near future since i'm heavily reorganising my website. It seems I did that a year ago, according to the dates of security alerts.
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Dienstag, 16.11.04 um 01:35 Uhr schrieb Frank Lichtenheld: Maybe, I did not get, what was meant with We should really add a "jump to content" link before at the top the page (we can hide it for browers with enabled style-sheets). The (site) content is at top of page, so why should a link to it be added at the top? Maybe, you refer the dictionary and think, there should be a language navigation menu at the top? That would be more a problem of the makdict program. The index.html is still a bit a hack. For the example I just copied index.html to make it css. But there would be nor problem to add a page content to the column left. For now you may try http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/index12.html with lynx and css browser, to see, how things can be in text version but not visible in css version (Quick site navigation). The other thing was just a suggestion: One can have an image moved to the background. It will be visible and if the browser has a small window text can overlap it (making it invisible. The same image (logo here) can be in the fore ground, if the browser does not have css capability (invisible there for css). alternatives: css: Image is a background-image, link name hidden. non css: image is in foreground with the hidden link. text browser: Alternative text is shown. The non-css variant´can be the css-variant, too. greetings Jutta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 01:28:41AM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > > Am Dienstag, 16.11.04 um 00:30 Uhr schrieb Frank Lichtenheld: > >While we're at it: We should really add a "jump to content" link before > >at the top the page (we can hide it for browers with enabled > >style-sheets). > > But the content is already at top of page Lynx needs some text > above the links, I think. > > For the header, the Debian Image can go to the background for > CSS-Browsers and the current ones only be shown for non-css browsers. > But that is a minor issue. I really can't parse those last paragraph by you. Can you rephrase it? Gruesse, -- Frank Lichtenheld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www: http://www.djpig.de/
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
Am Dienstag, 16.11.04 um 00:30 Uhr schrieb Frank Lichtenheld: I think, if we go for CSS, we really should get rid of the images in the nav bar, replacing them by text. I just tried to make everything like it is currently: I am a debian user only and do not have to decide. But if you have wishes, I can do an example. The menu may move to the left, too. This solves a lot of problems with i18n and perhaps we can make them even nicer ;) I do not know, if text with simple background is nicer, but it is easier to handle, for sure. Besides, is the @import really needed? Can't we just go for a ? (It breaks the style sheet menu of mozilla-ctextensions, at least I care ;) I'll have a look at that. Have to find some info about that. While we're at it: We should really add a "jump to content" link before at the top the page (we can hide it for browers with enabled style-sheets). But the content is already at top of page Lynx needs some text above the links, I think. For the header, the Debian Image can go to the background for CSS-Browsers and the current ones only be shown for non-css browsers. But that is a minor issue. If I get some more momments, I'll do some more examples. greetings Juttta -- http://www.witch.westfalen.de http://witch.muensterland.org
Re: Examples Debian WWW with css
On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 02:59:30AM +0100, Jutta Wrage wrote: > I've played around a bit with CSS stylesheets and debian-www was one of > my playing grounds. > > Please visit > > http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/index11.html > and > http://www.witch.westfalen.de/support-debian.html ^^^ missing debian/ > > and give me some feedback. Nice effort. I think, if we go for CSS, we really should get rid of the images in the nav bar, replacing them by text. This solves a lot of problems with i18n and perhaps we can make them even nicer ;) Besides, is the @import really needed? Can't we just go for a ? (It breaks the style sheet menu of mozilla-ctextensions, at least I care ;) While we're at it: We should really add a "jump to content" link before at the top the page (we can hide it for browers with enabled style-sheets). Gruesse, -- Frank Lichtenheld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www: http://www.djpig.de/
