[libreoffice-design] Mockup : Margin resizing
Hello everybody, I have imagined a new way to*resize margin* around an image in LibreOffice because it was quite difficult to do it in OpenOffice. - You can see it in this *picture* : http://ubuntulesjours.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/lo_image.png - I have also developed an *interactive mockup* in HTML to make it more understandable : http://ubuntulesjours.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/mockup_libreoffice.html (only bottom right corner is active) I don't know if it could be interesting for LibreOffice but don't hesitate to comment this idea. Thank you ! Sylvain. PS : sorry for my poor skills in English. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Default values
Hi Christoph, all On 10-03-2011 19:36, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Paulo, all! [...] The latter options are applied together by manually calling one of the items in the AutoCorrect options sub-menu (e.g. "Apply"). Example: You import a plain text file that misses correct line feeds and that uses '*' as bullets. Applying the AutoCorrect function manually tries to transform your document into something more "Writer" like. Consequently, deactivating these options won't improve the life of those who don't like AutoCorrect during typing ... this feature has to be called manually. And if called, they do make sense [...] Well, I didn't know that. So, I'm reviewing my opinion: * /Replace bullets with/: *-1 to change* * /Combine single line paragraphs if length greater than/: *-1 to change* Cherrs, ~Paulo -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Icons
Correct link to comparison image: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons-comparison.png (force reload) On 11-03-2011 02:13, Paulo José wrote: [...] Here it's another comparison between the old and new Tango icons (from your linked source file and LibreOffice's version) and the Galaxy icons. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-htnB3ln0AyY/TXmvHpBHEZI/Adc/Y4INmuU74KE/s1600/Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons-comparison-2.png [...] -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Icons
Hi Christoph! On 10-03-2011 20:44, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Paulo, hi Bernhard, all! [...] One thing that might be helpful is to have a look at the icon theme and the source data itself. Should be available here: http://tango.freedesktop.org/releases/tango-icon-theme-0.8.90.tar.gz Thank you very much for this link! I did a quick search for the tango source, but had no sucess. But when I had a look at these Tango icons, I saw they are sight different from "our" Tango icons. A sample: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-C6wDLfl-snk/TXmTyPNRFpI/AdQ/p4gDJyYmh5M/s1600/differences-tango-icons.png The shadow is different on each one, then right now I'm making two correct "shadow version". I'm a bit tired at the moment (not because of you, but because it is already very late here ...), so it might be wrong what I state. As far as I understand, the bigger icons in LibreOffice are 26px large. Since LibreOffice can be used on different platform, we don't always conform to the standards on the target platforms ... thus, when using LibreOffice together with the Tango icons, I think they added 2px to fill the remaining space. Galaxy states 26px icons "large size": http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html Gnome states 24px icons for the toolbars: http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/icons-types.html.en Thank you for make it clear. ;-) Oh, the developers just changed it to the Tango icon set - but (as far as I know) the Galaxy set is still shipped and therefore might also need some icons. However, we might not need to be perfect in any case ;-) And concerning your great icon comparison [1] - some personal comments: Proposals 1 and 3 are close to perfect! The only minor proposal is to make the shadows a bit more subtle ... I cannot really say why, it is just the first impression every time I look at those. You did a good point! After I saw the source file of Tango icons, I finally achieved the "right" shadow. Here it's another comparison between the old and new Tango icons (from your linked source file and LibreOffice's version) and the Galaxy icons. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-htnB3ln0AyY/TXmvHpBHEZI/Adc/Y4INmuU74KE/s1600/Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons-comparison-2.png The final SVG file with these 3 versions together: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons.svg (force reload) Well done, Paulo! Thanks for your work ... seems that we need to ship them soon ;-) Thank you Christoph! :-D Although your recent blog posting asked for some more feedback, I think it's better to get some sleep ... and come back with a fresh mind. Blogging (or just writing) is the best way to organize my ideas and avoid to forget issues, like I did with the status bar icons... Good night, ~Paulo -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Icons
Hi Paulo, hi Bernhard, all! Am Sonntag, den 06.03.2011, 20:35 -0300 schrieb Paulo José: > On 06-03-2011 19:53, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > > Hi Paulo, all, > > > > thanks for keeping this running! > > [...] > > We discussed the shadow during the first few iterations and came to > > the conclusion not to use it. > Yeah, I think I actually missed this part. I'm sorry about that. > > > I don't remember the reason exactly, but I think that some OS add > > their own shadow to the icons on the desktop? And we didn't want to > > waste precious pixel... Yes, for the 16px icons we wanted to use the maximum size. And for the larger icons, we were unsure what platforms will add an own shadow that might "interfere" with our own one. But ... > Since the icons are just for toolbar usage and they don't go to desktop, > the shadow problem doesn't a actual problem. Do I got it correctly? I > based mainly in the Tango icons along the application main toolbar, some > of them have shadow, others not. If they conform to the Tango guidelines, they do have some shadow (although the very small icons do have very subtle ones). http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines#Lighting One thing that might be helpful is to have a look at the icon theme and the source data itself. Should be available here: http://tango.freedesktop.org/releases/tango-icon-theme-0.8.90.tar.gz > > [...] > > So if I understand it correctly, we need 24x24 px icons already > > including one empty pixel at every side. > > > > This might be dependent on operating system and distribution, > > otherwise I don't know why Galaxy mentions 26x26, but perhaps Thorsten > > can enlighten us > I got it. Well, if we take the shadows off, we will decrease the icons > size by 2 pixels. Since they are 26px (24+2px) large, this action makes > them 24px (22+2px) large. Then they will have 1px empty around, the > correctly size. We'll not need remake them. :-) > > But I'm not sure if the other Tango icons on the screenshoot included in > this page > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons#Feedback_and_Issues > > actually is 22+2px large... When I was editing these icons, I used the > other Tango icons as base, and I'm almost sure they are actually 26px > large (24+2px) large. I'm a bit tired at the moment (not because of you, but because it is already very late here ...), so it might be wrong what I state. As far as I understand, the bigger icons in LibreOffice are 26px large. Since LibreOffice can be used on different platform, we don't always conform to the standards on the target platforms ... thus, when using LibreOffice together with the Tango icons, I think they added 2px to fill the remaining space. Galaxy states 26px icons "large size": http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html Gnome states 24px icons for the toolbars: http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/icons-types.html.en > A question just now came to me: I didn't go too deep in this subtitle, > so is it actually defined if we'll change to Galaxy icons? Oh, the developers just changed it to the Tango icon set - but (as far as I know) the Galaxy set is still shipped and therefore might also need some icons. However, we might not need to be perfect in any case ;-) And concerning your great icon comparison [1] - some personal comments: Proposals 1 and 3 are close to perfect! The only minor proposal is to make the shadows a bit more subtle ... I cannot really say why, it is just the first impression every time I look at those. Well done, Paulo! Thanks for your work ... seems that we need to ship them soon ;-) Although your recent blog posting asked for some more feedback, I think it's better to get some sleep ... and come back with a fresh mind. Cheers, Christoph [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Toolbar-Mimetype-Icons-comparison.png -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] local teams branding usage
2011/3/10 Christoph Noack : > Hi Daniel! > > Am Mittwoch, den 09.03.2011, 16:59 -0300 schrieb Daniel A. Rodriguez: >> hi guys, do you think it's possible have something like a branding >> adaptation to identify each local team in a unique visual way within >> branding guidelines. > > Hehe, everything is possible ;-) The question (to me) is, whether it > really helps to make people aware of LibreOffice. To "us", LibreOffice > became something that belongs to our daily life ... but for many others > the software (and its branding) is still very new. > > So personally, I would go for a unified branding - and only change this > if it conflicts with cultural issues for certain regions. Having a > harmonized branding helps to establish and to settle LibreOffice, > something the regional groups are also primarily interested in. > > But, for the OOo project, there have been thoughts to identify teams by > adding another subline to the logo. Of course, we can do this > differently, it is just about the idea: > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/branding_guidelines_draft#Font take a look to this idea a user post on spanish facebook account http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1903661719658&set=o.114853298590607&ref=nf maybe using country code The idea is that each group uses the same design as always belonging to LibO / TDF global community. what do you think? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Escuelas Libres :: Porque la educación es mucho mejor cuando es libre http://www.escuelaslibres.org.ar/ --- Para entrenar, cualquier programa sirve. Para educar, sólo Software Libre. (Federico Heinz) --- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
Hi Paulo, hi Hillar, all! Am Donnerstag, den 10.03.2011, 10:52 -0300 schrieb Paulo José: > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted > > Wow, This is full of love! What did happen to these guys and their ideas? > Where are they? :O Great stuff, isn't it? We did this "Design Proposal Session" for Renaissance - and this has been an amazing time, since I had the chance to work with the guys at Hamburg for a few days within their office when we prepared this effort. Pretty much fun! Concerning the "what did happen to these guys". Well, some of those are on this mailing list (which I'm really happy about). And to some, who stopped activities concerning OOo some time ago, I've send an invitation mail ... part of the first Kick-Off step named "Send Invitation to Interested Parties". Unfortunately, only very few replied :-\ The ideas: Some of them went into the Renaissance prototype that got famous for (people thought so) re-implementation of the Ribbon / Fluent concept by Microsoft. Unfortunately, many tiny but great ideas had to be postponed, because OOo wasn't ready yet ... so you may find stuff like the "Keyboard Command Invocation" that is pretty similar to your mockup once to be found at OMG Ubuntu: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Andreas_Schuderer#Keyboard_Command_Invocation So personally, I consider this collection still a great resource to think about interaction improvements - it had been mostly created by the community. If you look more closely, the major concepts are very similar ... but the real potential is in the additional "small" ideas. > On 10-03-2011 03:34, Hillar Liiv wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about > > shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design > > of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should > > look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our > > next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know > > where LibreOffice is going. [ ... Mockups and Design Examples ... ] > > (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice > > beacuase they don't like how it looks.) Got it. But I think we have to differentiate between "how it looks" and "how it behaves". Most of the statements by those users, and the mockups you've referred to combine these issues. But, from experience we know, that it is better to separate then in the very first step. For example, that is why we've asked in the Design Proposal Collection (see above) to not use fancy effects, but simply geometric drawings. Vice versa, I would like to separate (in the very first step) visual appearance and behavioral aspects. Of course, concerning the visual appearance, I totally share your thoughts - we should deliver something consistent. If we have a clear vision, the easier it is to explain / provide to the development. And as far as I can see, the current motif collection is already an important step in the right direction ... for all kinds of LibreOffice related visual artwork. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] local teams branding usage
Hi Daniel! Am Mittwoch, den 09.03.2011, 16:59 -0300 schrieb Daniel A. Rodriguez: > hi guys, do you think it's possible have something like a branding > adaptation to identify each local team in a unique visual way within > branding guidelines. Hehe, everything is possible ;-) The question (to me) is, whether it really helps to make people aware of LibreOffice. To "us", LibreOffice became something that belongs to our daily life ... but for many others the software (and its branding) is still very new. So personally, I would go for a unified branding - and only change this if it conflicts with cultural issues for certain regions. Having a harmonized branding helps to establish and to settle LibreOffice, something the regional groups are also primarily interested in. But, for the OOo project, there have been thoughts to identify teams by adding another subline to the logo. Of course, we can do this differently, it is just about the idea: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/branding_guidelines_draft#Font Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Default values
Good evening Ricardo, all! Am Dienstag, den 08.03.2011, 17:40 +0100 schrieb RGB ES: > 2011/3/7 Christoph Noack : [...] > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Better_Defaults_General > > > > Another thing that might be helpful to know. If we have to decide > > whether items (e.g. toolbar icons) should be available per default, then > > we will (sooner or later) require serious usage data for that. At the > > moment, we miss the updates by the "OpenOffice.org User Feedback > > Program" [1]. So, if anybody sees the chance to work on that ... that > > would be great. > > > Sure. In fact, I'd said that there are no simple answers for the > toolbar icons questions ;) > But the autocorrect options I think is a more important issue: > specially "Apply numbering - symbol" and > "Apply border": they generate very irritated reaction from users > (phrases like "I would like to know if there is a way to disable the > irritating auto numbering and auto format functions" or "I want to > completely disable the automatic numbering or bulleting of lists. They > drive me crazy, and I would rather do any such by myself, my own > way"... these and other appears quite often on the Community forums) You are right - the autocorrect options are something that people who want to be in full control (thus: no automatic or over-clever changes) don't like. But, there are also guys who really love this feature. Setting the default to "off" will just change the people who write such comments :-) To be serious again, this topic is - amongst others - one of those that cannot be sufficiently solved with a changed default. Also in the UX team at OOo we discussed that from time to time, so is my personal summary: * The real problem is that changes are applied every time the software tries to identify the intention to insert (e.g.) bullets * The very first time, the Help Agent pops up and tries to inform the user. Although it's a good idea, it is totally unhelpful because it: pops up at a position where it is easily missed, it is just a picture without sufficient information, it doesn't say "hey, click on me" to get further information", it simply disappears after a certain time, people already went crazy because of "Clippy" --> bad preconditions :-) * User can revert the change by "undo" (which sometimes works, sometimes it does not) * There is no way to tell the software within the context: don't apply it this time, don't apply it in this document, don't apply it ever, what is this change about So we might say the problems are: missing "self-disclosure", missing controllability This is one of those things, that Microsoft did right (mostly). Some years ago, I've collected my thoughts on that - and although already a bit outdated (because I would do some things differently), here is the page I've started: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/DirectManipulationSnippets Having such a framework would help to resolve a lot of other issues as well. So this might be something, we might add to our list of "WhatWeNeed" if we want to improve LibreOffice. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Default values
Hi Paulo, all! Am Montag, den 07.03.2011, 12:04 -0300 schrieb Paulo José: > Hi Ricardo! > > These are just some thoughts about your proposals. > [... lists of proposals and a rating ...] > > For now it's all I can to say. My opinion is very limited, since I'm not > a experienced user. But I wish it can help anyway. Just a small note concerning some of the options for AutoCorrect. The same type of option can be applied automatically (when entering the text, like ### [enter] for a special line), and some can be applied afterwards (e.g. combine single line paragraphs). The latter options are applied together by manually calling one of the items in the AutoCorrect options sub-menu (e.g. "Apply"). Example: You import a plain text file that misses correct line feeds and that uses '*' as bullets. Applying the AutoCorrect function manually tries to transform your document into something more "Writer" like. Consequently, deactivating these options won't improve the life of those who don't like AutoCorrect during typing ... this feature has to be called manually. And if called, they do make sense (especially in combination with the Review feature). But, of course, it might also be an Extension :-) Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: Linux / Gnome-Shell high-res icons ...
Hi! On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 00:02 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote: > (CCing the Design Team mailing list) > > Hi Michael, all! > > @ Design: We've got a hint by Michael concerning our icons ... > > Am Montag, den 07.03.2011, 20:34 + schrieb Michael Meeks: > > Hi Christophe / Bernhard, > > > > Meet Jon - working on the UI design for GNOME 3.0 - and he is missing > > some high-res icons for LibreOffice to make us look rather pretty in the > > new shell. > > Hi Jon! I've consumed quite some information and had a brief look at > Gnome 3 at the FOSDEM. Quite promising, although the crowd around me > made it quite difficult to test it thoroughly ;-) > > Are there any new "visual guidelines" we should keep in mind for Gnome 3 > (or all the freedesktop related stuff)? I haven't done a careful review of the most recent libreoffice. However, a few general guidelines spring to mind besides the use of hires icons. We're deprecating with the intent of eliminating the use of GtkStatusIcons (the notification area). So there are things like: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31206 We're also have new guidelines for notifications (libnotify type). Do you use those at all? We have new behaviors around modal dialogs. We're using Mac-like sheets to display modal dialogs. Windows of type hint dialog that are modal. It looks like some of the dialogs you may expect to be of this type aren't marked as such, like: http://people.gnome.org/~jclinton/libreoffice-modal-dialogs.png Other things to note in that screenshot are: * the button order is incorrect for use in GNOME. The Print button should be at the right side. * the horizontal separator should be removed from just above the buttons at the bottom of the dialog. * It seems that the app as a whole isn't honoring the GNOME setting for menu and button mnemonics. In GNOME we don't show these by default but only when the user presses Alt. I'm not completely sure how that is implemented. It would be best to talk to one of the GTK+ developers I think. Hope that is helpful. Please let me know if I can assist. Thanks, Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: Linux / Gnome-Shell high-res icons ...
On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 15:51 -0500, Jon McCann wrote: > On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 00:02 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote: > We're deprecating with the intent of eliminating the use of > GtkStatusIcons (the notification area). So there are things like: > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31206 The quickstarter thing that lives there isn't enabled by default out-of-the-box anymore on a fresh install, though of we still honour the setting if it was previously enabled. I'm not sure if we want a sort of "if we're running under GNOME3 then forget about it" kind of thing. > We're also have new guidelines for notifications (libnotify type). Do > you use those at all? No I don't think so, though I had wondered previously if we should run our help warnings (like the first time autocorrection changes something for you it tells you about it and how to disable it if you want) through the notification area. So guidelines on if that's a really stupid idea would be helpful :-) > http://people.gnome.org/~jclinton/libreoffice-modal-dialogs.png > > Other things to note in that screenshot are: > * the button order is incorrect for use in GNOME. The Print button > should be at the right side. Mind you, for the print dialog at least, a lot of these problems would go away if/when we use the native gtk print dialog there. *cough*, dtardon was poking at that a while ago, but I think that slipped off the radar. C. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Nik, *, Am 10.03.2011 18:25, schrieb Nik: Hi Ivan and Design! Today is the last day for adding motif proposals to the Wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif I've added mine (at the bottom). And a very hasty description because I'm running short on time. Mainly, my theme centres on the "collaboration/community" aspect. And some exploration of the clipped corner. Most of my shapes occur in "six-sided configurations" to reflect the writer/calc/base/draw... apps. Good luck with your own proposals. Remember, they don't have to be perfect, they just have to be ready enough to be voted on. We can refine them as a team a little later. Hopefully we can stick to the proposed timeline and go to a vote end of this week. now for some feedback When I saw the 6 for the first time I would take OpenBook. But after a while I think that the first (MessyStack) looks fresher. MessyStack: First I was irritated by the transparency of the messy pages. The logo is quite good and on the right place. It was my first eye catch on this shape. Maybe we can make 6 sheets and on the left edge of each sheet we can put one of the coloured triangles OpenBook: The logo isn't shown as good as in the others Proposal: The same with the pages and the coloured triangles as in MessyStack ApplicationCorners: There are three motifs to look at: on the left top, on the right top and on the right bottom. My eyes are irritated where to look. DocumentFlower: It looks a little bit like in the seventies (1970s). In Germany we had a 'Pril' flower that looks like it (a dish detergent). FoldedPage: I can't identify what the motif on the right side is. For me it is a green, transparency big point. Nothing else. I think the logo should be on the right side. Scatter: It seems to be very restless for me These are my personal non designer opinions. k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Nik! Wow, your last proposals are actually great! I still don't feel the "motif" feeling, but I think all them (specially the 6th) should be officially used in our work. They have quality enough to this, but still are too general to make me think on "LibreOffice" when I see them. But I think they are very promissing and define good approach to our motif! Just now some ideas are coming to my mind and if I'd have time tonight I'll make some proposals based on yours. By the way, I'm very excited to comment on the others motif's proposals. This page is becoming a place full of good ideas! :-D http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif ~Paulo -- Paulo José O. Amaro Estudante de Ciência da Computação / UFSJ Webdesigner / Linked E.J. Blogueiro / CasaTwain.com 2011/3/10 Nik > Hi Ivan and Design! > > Today is the last day for adding motif proposals to the Wiki page; > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif > > I've added mine (at the bottom). And a very hasty description because I'm > running short on time. > Mainly, my theme centres on the "collaboration/community" aspect. And some > exploration of the clipped corner. > Most of my shapes occur in "six-sided configurations" to reflect the > writer/calc/base/draw... apps. > Good luck with your own proposals. Remember, they don't have to be perfect, > they just have to be ready enough to be voted on. > We can refine them as a team a little later. > > Hopefully we can stick to the proposed timeline and go to a vote end of > this week. > now for some feedback > > > > On 3/7/2011 7:12 PM, Ivan M. wrote: > >> Hi Nik, all, >> >> First of all, Nik, thank you so much for driving this forward - you're >> doing a fantastic job! >> > Thanks amigo, That's high praise coming from /you/! =) > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Nik wrote: >> >>> [...] >>> So we have ideas and concepts, *It's time to Design!* >>> >>> * Pick a concept you'd like to convey and, while adhering to the >>> branding, create a first draft of your motif. >>> * Upload it to the Wiki page >>> (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) under the new >>> "Motif proposals" section (bottom of page). >>> * Add a preview image (jpeg/gif/png) if possible (svg preview is >>> quite bad). >>> * Explain what you were aiming to do with the Design, or more >>> importantly, what it communicates. >>> >> I've uploaded a rather quick and simple proposal to the wiki page with >> some descriptions and self-critique. I realise that it looks a little >> kitschy now (double rainbow all the way across the sky...) but I don't >> have the time right now to refine it further (or make a letterhead), >> > That's cool, I can totally imagine this in a letterhead and a whole bunch > of other formats, especially if used as a narrow strip. > You actually managed to skilfully combine the application colours, which > inspired my own attempt at mastering composition of the application colours. > And you used a TEXTURE really well, something I'd like to see more of, > because texture says so much by impeding so little. > > but the LibO rounded document corners could be brought into play as >> well. On that little tangent, I was also wondering what a bokeh-like >> effect with the LibO rounded document corners would look like (if it >> was done properly)... >> > If you manage to make a Bokeh motif work, and we complemented it with bokeh > photography, that would make for AMAZING compositions! > > I'm looking forward to seeing what others come up with! >> >> Regards, >> Ivan. >> >> Thanks for pitching in during your busy-season Ivan. > And I too am looking forward to what gets made by the crew? > Head on over to the Motif page to catch up on what's happened so far; > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif > > -Nik > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re:[libreoffice-design] General relationship between coders and designers
Hi all, On 3/11/2011 1:36 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: As I said to Nick, I hope that my apologies will make you change your mind. I have very bad taste regarding design (as a vast majority of developers), so I fully trust design team opinion when it's given. You don't need to apology for anything! Very true. Just to clarify with yourself (Sebastien) and Christoph, there's no need for either of you to apologise. Sebastien you're doing a great job and I'm sorry you got caught up in this at all. I'm more disappointed with Michael's "down get bogged down by Designers" mentality than anything, but even on his part, I can see this is just a misunderstanding, one which is probably the result of his not having time to read the thread, but the assumptions made were quite typical of developers who don't think much of Designers. Like Bernhard said, it's just demeaning for that to come from one of the most prominent developers in the community. If your opinion would have been shared by Michael, I'd never had written such a mail. [ skipping more comments I totally agree with ...] Thanks for your patience and positive attitude towards other parts of the community. +1 I still hope that this is the way we all can work together on topics important to more than one single group or team. Best regards Bernhard While I'm going to stick to my guns and avoid this issue so I can focus more on a more straight-forward current Design topic, I'm sure someone else with step in. We have a great crew and I hope this hasn't diminished your resolve to work with them Sebastien, thanks for being so patient. I've worked with Developers who respect Designers and vice versa, and the result of that collaboration is always magic. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Ivan and Design! Today is the last day for adding motif proposals to the Wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif I've added mine (at the bottom). And a very hasty description because I'm running short on time. Mainly, my theme centres on the "collaboration/community" aspect. And some exploration of the clipped corner. Most of my shapes occur in "six-sided configurations" to reflect the writer/calc/base/draw... apps. Good luck with your own proposals. Remember, they don't have to be perfect, they just have to be ready enough to be voted on. We can refine them as a team a little later. Hopefully we can stick to the proposed timeline and go to a vote end of this week. now for some feedback On 3/7/2011 7:12 PM, Ivan M. wrote: Hi Nik, all, First of all, Nik, thank you so much for driving this forward - you're doing a fantastic job! Thanks amigo, That's high praise coming from /you/! =) On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Nik wrote: [...] So we have ideas and concepts, *It's time to Design!* * Pick a concept you'd like to convey and, while adhering to the branding, create a first draft of your motif. * Upload it to the Wiki page (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif) under the new "Motif proposals" section (bottom of page). * Add a preview image (jpeg/gif/png) if possible (svg preview is quite bad). * Explain what you were aiming to do with the Design, or more importantly, what it communicates. I've uploaded a rather quick and simple proposal to the wiki page with some descriptions and self-critique. I realise that it looks a little kitschy now (double rainbow all the way across the sky...) but I don't have the time right now to refine it further (or make a letterhead), That's cool, I can totally imagine this in a letterhead and a whole bunch of other formats, especially if used as a narrow strip. You actually managed to skilfully combine the application colours, which inspired my own attempt at mastering composition of the application colours. And you used a TEXTURE really well, something I'd like to see more of, because texture says so much by impeding so little. but the LibO rounded document corners could be brought into play as well. On that little tangent, I was also wondering what a bokeh-like effect with the LibO rounded document corners would look like (if it was done properly)... If you manage to make a Bokeh motif work, and we complemented it with bokeh photography, that would make for AMAZING compositions! I'm looking forward to seeing what others come up with! Regards, Ivan. Thanks for pitching in during your busy-season Ivan. And I too am looking forward to what gets made by the crew? Head on over to the Motif page to catch up on what's happened so far; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re:[libreoffice-design] General relationship between coders and designers
Hi Sébastien, all, Sébastien wrote: > Le Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:11:19 +0100, > Bernhard Dippold a écrit : > > > Hi Michael, all, > > Hi, > > Reply inline :-) (don't fear scrolling even if you do not see any > answer for some time) I'll remove the parts I don't reply to ... > > > > > At first I want to thank Sébastien not only for his work, but also > > for being open to the discussion here, even if this means to delay > > the final inclusion of his patch. > > I don't care about the delay of inclusion (the only fear I have is my > hard drive failing with hours of non pushed work :-) ). Discussion is a > good thing and I hope it won't be broken because of misunderstandings. +1 > > > [...] > > > > *Short version:* > > If Michael (as one of the most relevant developer in our community) > > is right with attitude against non-coding contributors and if this is > > the official position of the LibreOffice project and The Document > > Foundation, I will not keep on spending my spare time and dedication > > to this open source project any more. > > Again, I don't think that Michael wanted to hurt anyone's feeling. > He probably doesn't do this on purpose, but there are two important points that need consideration: 1. He is one of the main developers in LibreOffice, part of the SC. So his opinion has more weight in our community than posting by most of the other developers. 2. He repeatedly suggests to include the patch irrespective to the result of our discussion - and to leave this topic afterwards, so any proposed modification will not be implemented if you would follow his suggestion. I still hope that this is *not* the official position of the Steering Committee and the LibreOffice community. > > > > > When coders are allowed and encouraged to do their changes regardless > > of the voting of the relevant experts in areas their code > > contribution touches, we come back to a two-class community where the > > broader community is not involved in decisions taken by non-experts > > but influencing the entire community and it's public standing. > > Thing is, the original bug report provided a 4 borders mockup, I > quickly implemented it (minus some display glitches that were not > fixed, they're present in stable LO version but are not this visible > since the shadow is thin and opaque), and when I show it to some people > everybody was suprised that the shadow was on 4 borders (the 5 people > who saw the screenshot told me that there should be only 2 borders). > Here this is my fault, I didn't knew that the design team had a mailing > list (which seem to take 8 hours to deliver mails into my inbox), if I > had, I would have posted the screenshot here to get more feedback. I > apologize for that and didn't thought it would go that far. > It's not your fault at all. Without Michaels recommendations this topic would have stayed as minor as it should be. But I think it shows quite well what can happen, if we don't work together on topics relevant to more LibreOffice teams than just the developers. We need to establish a workflow that allows easy coding as well as early inclusion of other teams relevant it this specific case. But at first I have to know about the overall relationship between developers and non-coders. In OpenOffice.org the ESC decided to modify the MimeType icons towards the colorless ODF icons. They didn't include UX and Marketing, blocked alternative proposals and caused lots of work leading to nothing. I know that part of the problem has been based on Sun/Oracle vs. volunteer community, but the other part is about non-coders' dependency on developer to get their ideas implemented or to have their expert concerns respected. I'm sorry that this topic changed to one of the most general questions in a community including developers and other community members. I should have started a new thread to make it clear, that your patch has just been the trigger, not the reason for my complaint. > > > > I will no longer be part of such a community. > > As I said to Nick, I hope that my apologies will make you change your > mind. I have very bad taste regarding design (as a vast majority of > developers), so I fully trust design team opinion when it's given. You don't need to apology for anything! If your opinion would have been shared by Michael, I'd never had written such a mail. [ skipping more comments I totally agree with ...] Thanks for your patience and positive attitude towards other parts of the community. I still hope that this is the way we all can work together on topics important to more than one single group or team. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted Wow, This is full of love! What did happen to these guys and their ideas? Where are they? :O On 10-03-2011 03:34, Hillar Liiv wrote: Hello, Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know where LibreOffice is going. Some mockup/design examples: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 Other examples: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtg&feature=player_embedded If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make things work. (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice beacuase they don't like how it looks.) Thanks, Hillar -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff - Please no ribbons/tabs!
Oh no, please no such "ribbons" like in M$EUR Office!! In my opinion the best solution is already implemented in LibreOffice and should be improved: * The menu bar with main functionality always stays in the same position * If I click into a table the table-bar appears * If I click on a graphic the graphic-bar appears * If I click into a bullet-point list the bullet-point-bar appears This is way more effective than the M$-variant where the user has to click on ribbons/tabs all the time and never knows if the required function hides behind "Review", "Insert" or "Design"... Regards Christopher Am 10.03.2011 07:34, schrieb Hillar Liiv: > Hello, > > Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about > shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design > of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should > look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our > next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know > where LibreOffice is going. > > Some mockup/design examples: > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted > http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png > http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 > > Other examples: > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png > http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtg&feature=player_embedded > > If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make > things work. > > (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice > beacuase they don't like how it looks.) > > Thanks, > Hillar > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout
Hi Thorsten, all, On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:25:32 +0100 Thorsten Behrens wrote: > Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: > > > For a developer interested in working on a certain topic it would > > > be easier to get a final voting like > > > "The Design Team asks you to add a 8 px wide blurred shadow in > > > grey transparency to all borders of the document. If the zoom > > > factor reduces the space between two sheets to less than 16px, the > > > overlapping areas of the shadow should be cut off. This should > > > apply to every area of LibreOffice, where document borders are > > > visible, namely Writer, Impress, Draw, XML forms [others not yet > > > searched for]." > > > > I am afraid you are very wrong there. It is not at all easier -- it > > is a lot harder -- and a lot less fun (the stuff that motivates > > volunteers). > > > Speaking for myself here - I'd consider it *helpful* to get > direction on those details. For me, it's not telling me how to code, > but what to put into all those magic constant values needed for UI - > I'd otherwise would need to trial-and-error those out, which is > non-fun (for me). Yes, of course working together is best. What bugged me here is that the bug on fdo was reopened before there was actually a consensus on how it can be done better. And the discussion about the bug was not even linked there. Keep in mind that closing a bug is a great boon for the developer -- dont take it away from him two days after he proudly closed it without a clear message on what to do better. > Besides, at least those bike-shed-color issues, are usually > trivially fixable after-the-fact ... ;) Exactly. Christoph applauded Sébastien for staying calm through all of this. I have to agree and ask others to follow his example: If you see some changes on master that you do not like: dont panic, create a well founded argument and then come forward with it. Best Regards, Bjoern -- https://launchpad.net/~bjoern-michaelsen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout
Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: > > For a developer interested in working on a certain topic it would be > > easier to get a final voting like > > "The Design Team asks you to add a 8 px wide blurred shadow in grey > > transparency to all borders of the document. If the zoom factor > > reduces the space between two sheets to less than 16px, the > > overlapping areas of the shadow should be cut off. This should apply > > to every area of LibreOffice, where document borders are visible, > > namely Writer, Impress, Draw, XML forms [others not yet searched > > for]." > > I am afraid you are very wrong there. It is not at all easier -- it > is a lot harder -- and a lot less fun (the stuff that motivates > volunteers). > Speaking for myself here - I'd consider it *helpful* to get direction on those details. For me, it's not telling me how to code, but what to put into all those magic constant values needed for UI - I'd otherwise would need to trial-and-error those out, which is non-fun (for me). Besides, at least those bike-shed-color issues, are usually trivially fixable after-the-fact ... ;) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: More general stuff (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout)
Christoph Noack wrote: > To be honest, I'm currently relying on released versions. I heard that > it is planned to establish nightly builds, but I fear this work isn't > finished. I also know that there is some tinderbox, but - again, as far > as I know - it just continuously checks for compiler issues. At OOo, we > could use buildbots to create "installsets" on demand for certain Child > Workspaces. > Hi Chris, all, this is indeed being worked on - we have nighly builds for one platform (Mac) already, stay tuned for the other: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/MacOS/master/ Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
