Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey - Current Issues

[Christian Vielma]

Hi!

1.) What do you think about LibreOffice as it stands today?
I think is the best alternative of MSO and a free office suite that has
great potential but still lacks in some functions.

a) What aspects of the User Interface do you like? Why?
I like the pdf button. Is very useful. And i like the contextual floating
menus, and the side Impress toolbars because is a way to access specific
functionality easily.

b) What aspects of the User Interface do you dislike? Why?
The Office 97 look and the menus. I think is not what it is required these
days, is complicated, ugly and unnecesary.

2.) How could LibreOffice better suit your needs in terms of UI?
I think that it could make easier to find not too common functions, and make
common functions easy to find for newbies. I think the interface should be
more clear, and take the goal of made it easy to use for a 5 years kid. And
also, in the sense of being "free" i think the interface should be easy and
in a great way configurable by the user.

3.) What would you like to see LibreOffice become?
Well besides kicking MSO ass, i would like LibreOffice to have it own sign,
and not always trying to be the "competence" of MSO. I think LibreOffice
should be identified by it easy of use and configurable interface.

Here is a link to a mockup of an interface i proposed in another thread just
to take it as an idea:
http://www.librethinking.com/index/images/OpenProjects/LibreOffice
/libreofficedrawersmockup.png

Best regards,

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Phil Jackson  wrote:

> On 6/20/2011 12:09 PM, Scott Pledger wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> While we're trying to come up with goals for LibreOffice, I'd like to see
>> what people think of LO as it stands today.  Please please please take the
>> time to respond to this as it can really help us to determine where exactly
>> we ought to go!
>>
>> --**--**
>>
>>
>> 1.) What do you think about LibreOffice as it stands today?
>>
>
> A suite that has the potential to become a very usable and productive
> system
>
>
>
>>   a) What aspects of the User Interface do you like? Why?
>>
>
> Has some elements that go to make it more usable.
>
>
>
>>   b) What aspects of the User Interface do you dislike? Why?
>>
>
> Too many icons, not enough context-sensitive menus
>
>
>> 2.) How could LibreOffice better suit your needs in terms of UI?
>>
>
> By maximising vertical space, making menus self-descriptive as to purpose,
> respects my time by  not making me do unnecessary things.
>
>
>> 3.) What would you like to see LibreOffice become?
>>
>
> The most usable suite with true high productivity that is responsive to its
> users and evolves by a Kaizen philosophy.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Jackson
>
>>
>> --**--**
>>
>>
>> More specific surveys will follow, once I have a better idea of what to
>> ask! :)
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Scott
>>
>>
>
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-- 
Christian Vielma

"Somos lo que hacemos día a día.
De modo que la excelencia no es un acto, sino un hábito" - Aristóteles

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey - Current Issues

[planas]

Scott

On Sun, 2011-06-19 at 18:09 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote:

> Hey all,
> 
> While we're trying to come up with goals for LibreOffice, I'd like to 
> see what people think of LO as it stands today.  Please please please 
> take the time to respond to this as it can really help us to determine 
> where exactly we ought to go!
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) What do you think about LibreOffice as it stands today?
> 
> a) What aspects of the User Interface do you like? Why?
> 
> b) What aspects of the User Interface do you dislike? Why?
> 
> 2.) How could LibreOffice better suit your needs in terms of UI?
> 
> 3.) What would you like to see LibreOffice become?
> 
> 
> 
> More specific surveys will follow, once I have a better idea of what to 
> ask! :)
> 
> Thanks!
> Scott
> 

1. a It is a straightforward UI, similar to ones used since the mid
80's. There is limited learning needed to use the UI. Fairly easy to
customize the UI to suit my needs.

1. b Some of the commands are in unusual locations, such as importing a
file into Calc is not under file. Makes learning the UI and menus a
little more time consuming, not difficult. The command is somewhere but
where until one learns the menus. Can be confusing to new users.

2. Use screen real estate better on large monitors. Have more tool bars
available in other locations particularly the side. User choice on the
final location.

3. The leading Office productivity package for users with a strong user
focus but not necessarily the most popular. I favor quality over market
share if there needs to be a choice.

-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey - Current Issues

[Phil Jackson]

On 6/20/2011 12:09 PM, Scott Pledger wrote:

Hey all,

While we're trying to come up with goals for LibreOffice, I'd like to 
see what people think of LO as it stands today.  Please please please 
take the time to respond to this as it can really help us to determine 
where exactly we ought to go!


 



1.) What do you think about LibreOffice as it stands today?


A suite that has the potential to become a very usable and productive system



   a) What aspects of the User Interface do you like? Why?


Has some elements that go to make it more usable.



   b) What aspects of the User Interface do you dislike? Why?


Too many icons, not enough context-sensitive menus


2.) How could LibreOffice better suit your needs in terms of UI?


By maximising vertical space, making menus self-descriptive as to 
purpose, respects my time by  not making me do unnecessary things.


3.) What would you like to see LibreOffice become?


The most usable suite with true high productivity that is responsive to 
its users and evolves by a Kaizen philosophy.


Cheers

Phil Jackson


 



More specific surveys will follow, once I have a better idea of what 
to ask! :)


Thanks!
Scott




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Re: [libreoffice-design] Survey - Current Issues

[jlopez777]

I have a similar survey that i just recently got done on this site

http://libreofficedesign.weebly.com/

Its under general layout tab. Maybe we can combine them if can make for a
stronger survey. Let me know.

JL

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 8:09 PM, Scott Pledger
wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> While we're trying to come up with goals for LibreOffice, I'd like to see
> what people think of LO as it stands today.  Please please please take the
> time to respond to this as it can really help us to determine where exactly
> we ought to go!
>
> --**--**
> 
>
> 1.) What do you think about LibreOffice as it stands today?
>
>   a) What aspects of the User Interface do you like? Why?
>
>   b) What aspects of the User Interface do you dislike? Why?
>
> 2.) How could LibreOffice better suit your needs in terms of UI?
>
> 3.) What would you like to see LibreOffice become?
>
> --**--**
> 
>
> More specific surveys will follow, once I have a better idea of what to
> ask! :)
>
> Thanks!
> Scott
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> design+help@global.**libreoffice.org
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/**
> Netiquette 
> List archive: 
> http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>


-- 
Joed Lopez

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[libreoffice-design] Survey - Current Issues

[Scott Pledger]

Hey all,

While we're trying to come up with goals for LibreOffice, I'd like to 
see what people think of LO as it stands today.  Please please please 
take the time to respond to this as it can really help us to determine 
where exactly we ought to go!




1.) What do you think about LibreOffice as it stands today?

   a) What aspects of the User Interface do you like? Why?

   b) What aspects of the User Interface do you dislike? Why?

2.) How could LibreOffice better suit your needs in terms of UI?

3.) What would you like to see LibreOffice become?



More specific surveys will follow, once I have a better idea of what to 
ask! :)


Thanks!
Scott

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Design Tenets Proposal

[Scott Pledger]

Bernhard, all,

These are all wonderful points!!


2011/6/19 Bernhard Dippold:

*The Goals:*

- *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*

I don't know if it is reasonable to have these two topics linked together so
tigthly.

Ease of use is of course one of the most important goals.

But it relates reciprocally to the complexity of the task.

If we come to a point where these two goals (ease of use and powerful
feature-richness) are so oppositional that we had to reduce the importance of
one in favour of the other, which one would be supported?

Features! We cannot lost already existing features just because a
redesigned UI.

This is exactly why I chose to phrase it as I did.  I don't want to see any of 
the hard work of others to vanish just because the UI is morphing - LibreOffice 
is one of the most powerful office suites available today and I would hate to 
see that paradigm change.


This is by
far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
menu/toolbar hierarchy.  [...]

I would not introduce details in this phase of the discussion, because they 
might
lead to a narrowed view on the topic.

Ease of use is far more than toolbars/menus: numbers of mouse clicks, mouse
distances, tastature access/accessibility come to my mind - and there are even
more like colors and contrast, positioning of objects and so on:

Nearly every modification to the UI has an impact in this field.

Agree

- *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  [...]
Instead of copying another office suite, let's
pave the way for others to build on.

While I fully support the second part of the statement, I don't want to have the
first one as part of our main goals.

I want to see LibreOffice having the *best* UI, not the newest or trendiest one.

+1000

There are parts in other UIs being very interesting and clever.  We can include
them (if legally possible) in our general concept, if they fit well.

If LibreOffice will be a trendsetter or not depends on the fact if we find 
*better*
solutions than all the other designer out there (or if we manage to include them
more consistently in our product).

So just following others is as wrong as setting trends in technology while other
existing ideas manage to fulfill the necessary task much better...

Fully agree with that
I also agree - my choice of wording here was poor and I put a bit too 
much thought into this statement when I wrote it, assuming that the best 
would by default become the trend leader. I get a bit idealistic on 
occasion ;)

- *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.

This is tightly related to "ease of use", so I'd combine these two goals.

What I'd like to add as goals:

- * Interoperability on different platforms.*
LibreOffice wants to be present in a similar way on all the major platforms.
Even if user switch from one platform to another, they should be able to work
the way they are used to. A major task will be definition of fixed (platform
independent) and OS-adapted (platform specific) parts in the UI in order to
find a common way that provides LibreOffice's branding and behavior at the
same time as smooth integration in the platform (with UI elements, behavior
  etc)

+1000

  *Don't forget actual users for possible future ones.*
Microsoft lost milions of users (to OOo/LibreOffice and others) because they
didn't take into account, that people tend to keep the Ui they are used to.
Even with a totally new approach we should be able to find the tasks in a
similar way to the old one.

- *Let people have fun.*
Working with LibreOffice should provide positive feelings - have a look at the
slogan we positioned on the website:

"Make it just work, and look great, too!"

Great points!
I'll definitely add these to the wiki page, which I just set up here: 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Tenets
Thanks so much for all the feedback!  Also, when it comes to having 
goals, I would like to see what everyone's thoughts are on what needs to 
change about the current UI for LO.  I'll post another message in a few 
regarding this!


Scott

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] Design Tenets Proposal

[RGB ES]

2011/6/19 Bernhard Dippold :
>> *The Goals:*
>>
>>    - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*
>
> I don't know if it is reasonable to have these two topics linked together so
> tigthly.
>
> Ease of use is of course one of the most important goals.
>
> But it relates reciprocally to the complexity of the task.
>
> If we come to a point where these two goals (ease of use and powerful
> feature-richness) are so oppositional that we had to reduce the importance of
> one in favour of the other, which one would be supported?

Features! We cannot lost already existing features just because a
redesigned UI.


>>   This is by
>>    far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients 
>> use
>>    LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>>    menu/toolbar hierarchy.  [...]
>
> I would not introduce details in this phase of the discussion, because they 
> might
> lead to a narrowed view on the topic.
>
> Ease of use is far more than toolbars/menus: numbers of mouse clicks, mouse
> distances, tastature access/accessibility come to my mind - and there are even
> more like colors and contrast, positioning of objects and so on:
>
> Nearly every modification to the UI has an impact in this field.

Agree

>>    - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  [...]
>>    Instead of copying another office suite, let's
>>    pave the way for others to build on.
>
> While I fully support the second part of the statement, I don't want to have 
> the
> first one as part of our main goals.
>
> I want to see LibreOffice having the *best* UI, not the newest or trendiest 
> one.

+1000

> There are parts in other UIs being very interesting and clever.  We can 
> include
> them (if legally possible) in our general concept, if they fit well.
>
> If LibreOffice will be a trendsetter or not depends on the fact if we find 
> *better*
> solutions than all the other designer out there (or if we manage to include 
> them
> more consistently in our product).
>
> So just following others is as wrong as setting trends in technology while 
> other
> existing ideas manage to fulfill the necessary task much better...

Fully agree with that

>
>>    - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>>    want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>>    ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>
> This is tightly related to "ease of use", so I'd combine these two goals.
>
> What I'd like to add as goals:
>
> - * Interoperability on different platforms.*
> LibreOffice wants to be present in a similar way on all the major platforms.
> Even if user switch from one platform to another, they should be able to work
> the way they are used to. A major task will be definition of fixed (platform
> independent) and OS-adapted (platform specific) parts in the UI in order to
> find a common way that provides LibreOffice's branding and behavior at the
> same time as smooth integration in the platform (with UI elements, behavior
>  etc)

+1000

> - *Don't forget actual users for possible future ones.*
> Microsoft lost milions of users (to OOo/LibreOffice and others) because they
> didn't take into account, that people tend to keep the Ui they are used to.
> Even with a totally new approach we should be able to find the tasks in a
> similar way to the old one.
>
> - *Let people have fun.*
> Working with LibreOffice should provide positive feelings - have a look at the
> slogan we positioned on the website:
>
> "Make it just work, and look great, too!"

Great points!

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[libreoffice-design] Logo for the new extension-template-repository?

[Andreas Mantke]

Hi all,

in the last days I get a new environment for a extension and template 
repository for 
LibreOffice working. You can find the new site currently at 
http://kermit.documentfoundation.org:9089/LibreOffice-Extensions-and-Templates/

There is only a placeholder for a logo on the site at the moment. A short time 
ago 
there was a proposal for a logo for the new repo but the discussion stops. 
Maybe with 
the new site at the doors a discussion how the logo of the new site should look 
like 
is easier ;-)

Regards,
Andreas
-- 
## Developer LibreOffice
## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows
## http://LibreOffice.org
## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org)
## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de 

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[planas]

On Sun, 2011-06-19 at 04:51 -0700, Sean White wrote:

> The design itself is a good one, even if it is a little too close to that of
> MSO for my liking.  When we do (finally) decide on a reformed interface,
> then i think we should definitely incorporate features of this design into
> it, but with all the other good designs floating about, we shouldn't just
> pick one design but build one that has the best features of all of them.
> 
> On a related note, i think it may be time someone set up a special wiki page
> detailing and showcasing all the interface designs that we have for
> LibreOffice cause i think it would make the final reforming job a lot
> easier.  Plus it would mean that ever designer can see other designers work
> and possibly allow them to create a better idea using the other ideas as a
> spring board.  Just my two cents
> 
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Budislav Stepanov
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/d/d0/New_libre_office_concept.png
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Budislav
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > deleted
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sean White,
> I've Seen the Cow Level

I do not object to the ribbon itself but MS's implementation of it being very 
rigid and easily customizable.


One idea is a mini-ribbon that is not customizable on the top and on one
side a series of drawers, ribbons, or something else that is easily
customizable. The mini-ribbon would have the basic tools for say file
manipulation (open, save, close, print, etc. that almost all users would
need fairly often). The side panels would allow the user to add or
delete more functionality according to their needs. The mini-ribbon may
end up being a standard menu bar. 

I think now is a good time to think more clearly on the UI and what LO
needs. What others have done or not done should not directly concern us
other than trying to understand why made their decisions. Understanding
the reasons will help us to determine who we should study to see if
there are ways we can have a better UI.

I agree that we should copy anyone but determine what we need to do for
LO. If it happens to resemble someone else's UI, I have no problem with
resemblance.


-- 
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com

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[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] Design Tenets Proposal

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Scott, all

thanks for bringing us back to the basics we need
if we want to reach out to a general approach from 
individual ideas and great mockups.

It's really superb to see the different UI rework 
proposals with lots of good ideas and proposals.

But turning the multitude of them into one optimized
design might take more time and dedication we 
imagine at the moment.

And as you pointed out we need to define the main 
goals and rules for the overall UI design before we
start to look at the individual mockups and design 
elements.

Scott Pledger wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction for
> the Libre Office platform.  

+1

> Someone recently posted this video (
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me realize
> the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.

Thanks for this link! It contains a multitude of interesting information we can
use for our work too. Even if these videos have a total length of about 1 1/2 
hours
they are really worthwhile following them.

>  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think LibreOffice
> ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> achieve these goals.  

I think it would be worthwhile to put these goals and tenets on the wiki and 
refine 
them there. Would you be able to create a wiki page (perhaps starting as 
subpage to your userpage) containing this information?

> So, here we go:
> 
> *The Goals:*
> 
>    - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*

I don't know if it is reasonable to have these two topics linked together so 
tigthly. 

Ease of use is of course one of the most important goals.

But it relates reciprocally to the complexity of the task.

If we come to a point where these two goals (ease of use and powerful 
feature-richness) are so oppositional that we had to reduce the importance of 
one in favour of the other, which one would be supported?

>   This is by
>    far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
>    LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>    menu/toolbar hierarchy.  [...]

I would not introduce details in this phase of the discussion, because they 
might
lead to a narrowed view on the topic.

Ease of use is far more than toolbars/menus: numbers of mouse clicks, mouse
distances, tastature access/accessibility come to my mind - and there are even 
more like colors and contrast, positioning of objects and so on:

Nearly every modification to the UI has an impact in this field.

>    - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  [...]
>Instead of copying another office suite, let's
>    pave the way for others to build on.

While I fully support the second part of the statement, I don't want to have 
the 
first one as part of our main goals.

I want to see LibreOffice having the *best* UI, not the newest or trendiest one.
There are parts in other UIs being very interesting and clever.  We can include
them (if legally possible) in our general concept, if they fit well.

If LibreOffice will be a trendsetter or not depends on the fact if we find 
*better*
solutions than all the other designer out there (or if we manage to include 
them 
more consistently in our product).

So just following others is as wrong as setting trends in technology while other
existing ideas manage to fulfill the necessary task much better...

>    - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>    want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>    ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.

This is tightly related to "ease of use", so I'd combine these two goals.

What I'd like to add as goals:

- * Interoperability on different platforms.*
LibreOffice wants to be present in a similar way on all the major platforms.
Even if user switch from one platform to another, they should be able to work
the way they are used to. A major task will be definition of fixed (platform 
independent) and OS-adapted (platform specific) parts in the UI in order to 
find a common way that provides LibreOffice's branding and behavior at the 
same time as smooth integration in the platform (with UI elements, behavior
 etc)

- *Don't forget actual users for possible future ones.*
Microsoft lost milions of users (to OOo/LibreOffice and others) because they
didn't take into account, that people tend to keep the Ui they are used to.
Even with a totally new approach we should be able to find the tasks in a 
similar way to the old one.

- *Let people have fun.* 
Working with LibreOffice should provide positive feelings - have a look at the
slogan we positioned on the website:

"Make it just work, and look great, too!" 
> 
> *The Tenets:*
> 
>    - *All

Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[Budislav Stepanov]

Of course, you're right, if I understand you, but I did not say that LO
should not look great for linux, on the contrary. It seems that there have
been attempts to redesign the icons, to be modern and..., but I can only see
a bunch of different pictograms whose design not belong to any of these
systems philosophy. Access to the tools is a major problem. I'm interested
in just who decides about all of this and how I contribute, Does it make
sense to talk about this, or continue business as usual :)

On 19 June 2011 19:10, RGB ES  wrote:

> 2011/6/19 Budislav Stepanov :
> > Of course it looks like MSO, LO now looks like MSO 2003:). Everyone
> should
> > take part in this, I just gave a suggestion.
> > @ Ricardo - I do not understand what is so special in the current
> interface
> > and so well that it should not be changed, is it not better to be easily
> > manipulated with the tools,I read somewhere that people in the company
> can
> > not find their way in, Is not it better to simplify it. Who is against
> it?
> > we all, as designers need to design how everything should look like, not
> > to ask developers what is better, that all of the tools in one place r
> that
> > the user loses until you find what they need . What is the aim of
> developing
> > this program? . No one said that he would deviate from KDE, but it would
> be
> > much easier to use all the features of the program. After all let's ask
> many
> > people who use the LO what is better, maybe they make a suggestion? LO
> > should be used with enthusiasm, not because we must, because it is free.
> > Without ideas there is nothing. Just my opinion.
>
> I'm not talking about the current interface that for sure needs a
> redesign, but about how the interface integrates with the desktop
> environment used.
> On your mock-up you wrote that LibO should have an unique look
> independently of the OS and I do not agree with that, that's all ;)
> Which tools are available and where (dockers, side toolbars, etc.),
> and the way to access all the others must be a desktop independent
> trademark for LibO, that's right: each app is unique in many senses
> and so they are their tools. But how menus and buttons are
> highlighted, the colour scheme, even icon theme (the save, open,
> new... buttons, for example) should be, if possible, in harmony with
> the rest of the system so users can feel "at home" with the app and,
> first of all, do not get that second of confusion when changing from
> LibO to another apps or vice versa.
> That's why I mentioned the file picker. Right now, LibO's own file
> picker is bad (to be nice...), but even if it were good a user that
> needs to save a file to a new location needs also to switch his/her
> mind from what they are used to use to whatever LibO offers *every
> time*, and that is counter-productive.
> I mentioned KDE just as an example: what I'd said holds, I think, for
> gnome, xfce, mac (acqua?)...
> LibO must be an unique product, granted, but it should not look as an
> intruder on the desktop session.
> Cheers
> Ricardo
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[RGB ES]

2011/6/19 Budislav Stepanov :
> Of course it looks like MSO, LO now looks like MSO 2003:). Everyone should
> take part in this, I just gave a suggestion.
> @ Ricardo - I do not understand what is so special in the current interface
> and so well that it should not be changed, is it not better to be easily
> manipulated with the tools,I read somewhere that people in the company can
> not find their way in, Is not it better to simplify it. Who is against it?
> we all, as designers need to design how everything should look like, not
> to ask developers what is better, that all of the tools in one place r that
> the user loses until you find what they need . What is the aim of developing
> this program? . No one said that he would deviate from KDE, but it would be
> much easier to use all the features of the program. After all let's ask many
> people who use the LO what is better, maybe they make a suggestion? LO
> should be used with enthusiasm, not because we must, because it is free.
> Without ideas there is nothing. Just my opinion.

I'm not talking about the current interface that for sure needs a
redesign, but about how the interface integrates with the desktop
environment used.
On your mock-up you wrote that LibO should have an unique look
independently of the OS and I do not agree with that, that's all ;)
Which tools are available and where (dockers, side toolbars, etc.),
and the way to access all the others must be a desktop independent
trademark for LibO, that's right: each app is unique in many senses
and so they are their tools. But how menus and buttons are
highlighted, the colour scheme, even icon theme (the save, open,
new... buttons, for example) should be, if possible, in harmony with
the rest of the system so users can feel "at home" with the app and,
first of all, do not get that second of confusion when changing from
LibO to another apps or vice versa.
That's why I mentioned the file picker. Right now, LibO's own file
picker is bad (to be nice...), but even if it were good a user that
needs to save a file to a new location needs also to switch his/her
mind from what they are used to use to whatever LibO offers *every
time*, and that is counter-productive.
I mentioned KDE just as an example: what I'd said holds, I think, for
gnome, xfce, mac (acqua?)...
LibO must be an unique product, granted, but it should not look as an
intruder on the desktop session.
Cheers
Ricardo

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[Budislav Stepanov]

Of course it looks like MSO, LO now looks like MSO 2003:). Everyone should
take part in this, I just gave a suggestion.
@ Ricardo - I do not understand what is so special in the current interface
and so well that it should not be changed, is it not better to be easily
manipulated with the tools,I read somewhere that people in the company can
not find their way in, Is not it better to simplify it. Who is against it?
we all, as designers need to design ​​how everything should look like, not
to ask developers what is better, that all of the tools in one place r that
the user loses until you find what they need . What is the aim of developing
this program? . No one said that he would deviate from KDE, but it would be
much easier to use all the features of the program. After all let's ask many
people who use the LO what is better, maybe they make a suggestion? LO
should be used with enthusiasm, not because we must, because it is free.
Without ideas there is nothing. Just my opinion.
@ Patrick - Thanks, but this is just one example, I bet you all have great
ideas, I would like if there was a place where we all could to show the idea
and then realized. Yes I imagined it as a browser only showed what I right.
I love tradition, but when it grows into something better and more
functional :)
I do not know if anyone used the program for music production "ableton" if
you did not see, how simple the interface is only 4 colors, no gloss, each
icon is super simple and designed, and these are among the other things that
makes the program indispensable.
-- 
Regards,
Budislav

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[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] Formalized team work structures

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Philip (H), Phil (J), all,

Phil Howards wrote:

> Bernard, All,
> 
> An initial draft of a wiki page prototype for new ideas is here:
> 
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/IdeaWorkflow

Thanks for this structured approach for a general template. 

And thanks to Christoph for the template's structure ;-)
> 
> It's just the DocumentBackground page stripped of its content. I'm in
> two minds about whether it is better to comment out everything from
> Specification onwards, leaving just Summary and Discussion visible
> initially. But that's something to do once we've finished deciding on
> the page.

I would leave them visible, but add something like "can be specified later" 
to the other sections.

This way people know they can work on these parts if they want to, but it's
no problem to leave them empty at the beginning.
> 
> Things I like from the DocumentBackground page:
> 
> . Progresses from idea to implementation
> . Discussion section near the top means interested parties can read
> the relevant threads and handles the transition of an idea from
> discussion list to whiteboard.
> . Implementation history near the bottom lets the page tell the story
> of where an idea has got to, if it is to be implemented in stages, for
> example.
> . Open items gives space for leftover items so they don't slip through the 
> net.
> 
> Perhaps links to mockups (much of the whiteboard use in the initial
> stages) would go in Discussion.

If Discussion includes all the different alternatives and approaches I would
like to move it down below Specification.

A 1-liner in Specification like "Task still in discussion" would probably not 
retract interest from Discussion, but would allow to define the specification 
finally decided on to become more prominent in the end (when discussion
is just a part of it's history).
> 
> Using whiteboard wikis for the process is great, because its
> asynchronous nature permits sporadic development in the same way
> wikipedia does. Also the specification can be fleshed out as it is
> developed in the discussions, ready for implementation. It hink the
> concept in my mind is coalescence - from an idea of a change to the
> details of its implementation.
> 
> The workflow should be changed and refined to suit the process. If
> longer-standing members will consistently mark up a whiteboard as it
> progresses, we may be able to leave just the Summary and Discussion
> sections on the workflow template, and let people reuse the latest
> whiteboard that they like, to avoid having one more thing to keep up
> to date, or being too prescriptive.

I start to think of the main whiteboad page more and more as a table:
with a field showing the status of all the entries.

If a entry has matured and finalized by the developers they should be 
moved to a "implemented specifications" page...

Best regards

Bernhard




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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[Patrick Scott]

@Ricardo, good point about the window decoration. I was thinking the same
myself. At the moment, KDE, Gnome, Unity, Mac OS and Windows all of their
own unique implementations of the window titlebar. Microsoft Office can get
away with customising their titlebar since their suite is optimised for
Windows. LibreOffice, on the other hand, is cross platform so we can't
afford to go messing with OS specific utilities like the titlebar. Google
got away with this with Chromium but they've got some serious resources
behind them. So with this mockup the widgets need to be taken out of the
titlebar and worked back into the main UI.

@Busilav, Overall, it's a really good mockup! I love the not-quite-tabs
you've got in the upper left hand corner. I imagined something similar to
this before but didn't thing it would work as well as you've drawn it. Good
job! Your multiple docuements pane on the left is also interesting. I assume
you intended this to be like browser tabs but with a visual preview? If so,
that idea has been floating around recently and it's nice to see it on
paper! It would also be nice if the user could move these back to the top to
have them become more like traditional browser tabs.

Thanks,
Patrick

On 19 June 2011 14:44, RGB ES  wrote:

> 2011/6/19 Budislav Stepanov :
> >
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/d/d0/New_libre_office_concept.png
> > --
>
> To incorporate app elements on the window decoration is something that
> could start a bit of debate, I think. For my part, I'm against of this
> "client side windows decoration" tendency that started a couple of
> years ago, noisily voiced by some projects and quietly (but clearly)
> rejected by others. But beside my opinions, the fact that several
> players on the desktop "market" have different approaches (KDE
> developers stated quite clearly they will never support it), I think
> we need to let the desktop alone and concentrate on the app.
> Also, for my part I consider that some degree of consistency with the
> desktop is needed: if you will be in front of the computer several
> hours each day using different applications you need to be comfortable
> with your environment and that imply a minimum degree of consistency
> between the tools you are using. Ideally, the widgets colours and
> styles, file picker, etc. need to be set by the desktop, while less
> used tools like print menu could be different. Obviously, there is
> full freedom for specific tools like style editor or cross reference
> menu.
> After years of integration pain 3.4 visually integrates quite well on
> my KDE desktop. I think this integration must be keep.
> Just my 2¢
> Cheers
> Ricardo
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Design Tenets Proposal

[RGB ES]

2011/6/19 jlopez777 :
> We come back to these great points but what is lacking is proper
> infrastructure and channels of operation. We speak of users with no data to
> back up with anything and most importantly, no brand identity. Nothing will
> come forth from this type of infrastructure if we split hairs on how it
> applies to every single user imaginable, nothing will get done.

Agree. In fact because of that I'd said that we need a flexible and
easily configurable UI

>
> I proposed a while ago with no comments a structure that dealt with the
> foundation of the layout design. How can we speak of specifics, when we
> cannot reach a consesus on keeping the layout as is, or introducing a
> vertical toolbar, or customizable ribbon like layout (personally, we will
> NEVER reach consensus if there is no BRAND IDENTITY of what LibreOffice is
> and who its for...and lets not be cliche and say its for everyone because
> that can be interpreted so many different ways).
>
> We must come to a decision of what the GENERAL layout should be, then work
> on menu/icon placement, then work on functinality, and last but DEF NOT
> LEAST, visual appeal.

+1

> We will have to put time tables up, because we can never progress unless we
> all are on the same page regarding the need to progress and if a great idea
> can't be fit in the timeline set, then we wait to introduce it in the next
> clycle release. We can forgo all these great ideas that we have just because
> we have to iron out every single aspect of it.
>
> The tenets are great, but again, if we don't have a structure and not use
> the current infrastructure properly, we will do nothing more but right great
> emails about great ideas that never see the light of day. Im sorry if I
> sound a little over the top, I really care, like all of you, about the
> advancement of the value libreoffice can have on so many people.
>
> So, I decided to do something a little different and create this site for an
> alternative infrastructure that is meant to be smaller in scale, but faster
> in pace in some respects. If you are interested in experimenting with a
> different kind of infrastructure, and flesh out some experimental
> designs...I especially invite you (anyone really).
>
> Here is the link.
> http://libreofficedesign.weebly.com
>
> I look forward to seeing where this goes...

Looks promising... Thanks!
Cheers
Ricardo

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[RGB ES]

2011/6/19 Budislav Stepanov :
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/d/d0/New_libre_office_concept.png
> --

To incorporate app elements on the window decoration is something that
could start a bit of debate, I think. For my part, I'm against of this
"client side windows decoration" tendency that started a couple of
years ago, noisily voiced by some projects and quietly (but clearly)
rejected by others. But beside my opinions, the fact that several
players on the desktop "market" have different approaches (KDE
developers stated quite clearly they will never support it), I think
we need to let the desktop alone and concentrate on the app.
Also, for my part I consider that some degree of consistency with the
desktop is needed: if you will be in front of the computer several
hours each day using different applications you need to be comfortable
with your environment and that imply a minimum degree of consistency
between the tools you are using. Ideally, the widgets colours and
styles, file picker, etc. need to be set by the desktop, while less
used tools like print menu could be different. Obviously, there is
full freedom for specific tools like style editor or cross reference
menu.
After years of integration pain 3.4 visually integrates quite well on
my KDE desktop. I think this integration must be keep.
Just my 2¢
Cheers
Ricardo

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[Sean White]

The design itself is a good one, even if it is a little too close to that of
MSO for my liking.  When we do (finally) decide on a reformed interface,
then i think we should definitely incorporate features of this design into
it, but with all the other good designs floating about, we shouldn't just
pick one design but build one that has the best features of all of them.

On a related note, i think it may be time someone set up a special wiki page
detailing and showcasing all the interface designs that we have for
LibreOffice cause i think it would make the final reforming job a lot
easier.  Plus it would mean that ever designer can see other designers work
and possibly allow them to create a better idea using the other ideas as a
spring board.  Just my two cents

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Budislav Stepanov
wrote:

>
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/d/d0/New_libre_office_concept.png
> --
> Regards,
> Budislav
>
> --
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>
>


-- 
Sean White,
I've Seen the Cow Level

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[Budislav Stepanov]

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/d/d0/New_libre_office_concept.png
-- 
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Budislav

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[Budislav Stepanov]

I sorry for this, I forgot that for google need account ,I put on ubuntu,
please http://ubuntuone.com/p/zyq/  or http://www.sendspace.com/file/l6hs9m
If you talking abaut Libreoffice Wiki, "The action you have requested is
limited to users in one of the groups:
Administrators,
emailconfirmed" ;)


On 19 June 2011 09:24, Jean Hollis Weber  wrote:

> I have a google account, and I couldn't see the files. I got the message
> "Sorry, the page (or document) you have requested is not available."
>
> --Jean
>
> On Sun, 2011-06-19 at 08:56 +0200, Christopher Stark wrote:
> > Yes, you have to have a google account to view these files. I will
> > definitely not get a google account!
> >
> > There are so many free file hosters out there, so it shouldn't be a
> > problem to upload the screenshots there, or as Hillar says upload them
> > directly to the Libreoffice wiki...
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 19.06.2011 08:10, schrieb Hillar Liiv:
> > > hello,
> > >
> > > Google Docs link don't work for me. Can you please upload it to
> > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/
> > > You need to make account to there and then in left menu is "upload
> file".
> > > Or log in and then go to link
> > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Special:Upload
> > >
> > > Hillar
> > >
>
>
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-- 
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Budislav

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Complete redesign of the interface!

[Jean Hollis Weber]

I have a google account, and I couldn't see the files. I got the message
"Sorry, the page (or document) you have requested is not available."

--Jean

On Sun, 2011-06-19 at 08:56 +0200, Christopher Stark wrote:
> Yes, you have to have a google account to view these files. I will
> definitely not get a google account!
> 
> There are so many free file hosters out there, so it shouldn't be a
> problem to upload the screenshots there, or as Hillar says upload them
> directly to the Libreoffice wiki...
> 
> Christopher
> 
> 
> 
> Am 19.06.2011 08:10, schrieb Hillar Liiv:
> > hello,
> >
> > Google Docs link don't work for me. Can you please upload it to
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/
> > You need to make account to there and then in left menu is "upload file".
> > Or log in and then go to link
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Special:Upload
> >
> > Hillar
> >


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