Re: [libreoffice-design] The Start Center artwork

[Stefan Knorr (Astron)]

Hi Alex,

the problem with your icons is they're too large. They absolutely need
to be 24*24 or 32*32, respectively.
To recap:
* Folder icon, Templates icon: 32*32
* Download Templates, Download Extensions, Information icon: 22*22
(basically, but we'll add an additional 1px border to them)



> Actually, I didn't take the human theme folder Icon, but created a new one 
> based on an image I found. If this 
> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Human_icons) is the correct theme, then 
> its apparently licensed under Creative Commons Legal Code 
> Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5.

These are Share-Alike, so I don't think we can not take them, since we
need to re-license them under different licenses, namely LGPL3+/MPL.


> Extensions: http://ubuntuone.com/2pz9N2hXSbgxU1pEVcJFqR

Hm, I think the arrow is in the wrong position. It should be bottom
right, but it is on the bottom left. This probably relates to the way
we read, i. e. left to right (since overlaid icons are a bit like a
story: "There are extensions (main information). Download them from
here (follow-up information).")

I kind of like the way you attached the "nub" on top. That makes the
triangle more recognisable as the TDF triangle. My icon hides its
triangular shape a little, sadly:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Down-exten.svg (feel free to
tell if this doesn't work at all).
About the question of colour for this icon: I think Mozilla
established green extension icons, but I don't think we should go for
green for two reasons:
* the LibreOffice brand is green based and Tango's green clashes a bit with that
* and, more importantly, we already have a green arrow – unless we
want to change this now, using green for the extension icon would make
it unrecognisable.

Other colours: I could imagine purple would work, or maybe brown
(cardboard/wood) or grey (paper). I don't think red or orange make any
sense. So, do go ahead, if you want to go into any of these
directions.

> Folder 2: http://ubuntuone.com/2D7EO1xOczgvX414xmZi1G (Based on the tango one)

I don't quite like the perspective on this one (it's just broken). And
I was just starting to feel happy with mine.
I also put a document in mine, dammit:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Openfile2.svg

About the document in the folder:
* pro generic document:
+ we can open many different formats
+ there already is lots of TDF branding in the Start Center, we
shouldn't overdo it
+ TDF document might be overly complicated at small sizes

* pro TDF document:
+ might be a "nice" branding touch to complete our branding

I tend to go with argumentation #1, as you can see from my listing already.


> Info: http://ubuntuone.com/0n8CVcgXnNY8hYO1mIBRTX

Nice, scaled this down a little, otherwise unchanged. Not sure if
adding a drop shadow is necessary, since the perspective does meet the
definition of "on the shelf" better than "on the table", so not,
right? This is now here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:StartcInfo.svg .


> Templates: http://ubuntuone.com/3TODCaUqhlbHzv5CDOwodP

The arrow problem is now the same as with the the extensions icon.
Additionally something went wrong with spiral binding there... So, I
propose that we just take this:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templates-down.svg (maybe
change the arrow, but otherwise unchanged) and
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Templates.svg (just taken from
initial branding SVG, with some things deleted, otherwise unchanged).

(Please always click through to the actual SVG's as the wiki's
rendering is pretty awful.)

Astron.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?

[Sean White]

Which is all why I didn't propose that we do it straight away.  We all
agree that the UI needs an overhaul, and if there is a dedicated person/s
that work on a spec we can have a Citrus UI spec together relatively
quickly. the problem is that the majority of us have day jobs and other
aspects of lives to take care of to concentrate on writing such a broad
spec.   After the spec has been writen we would then need the devs to put
together a working prototype of the UI to test and then to modify and
re-implement the spec of.  All of which points back to my original plan of
having a crew of devs create the UI as a pre-/alpha version of LibO 4 while
LibO 3.x continues independently of those UI changes

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hello all
>
> I wanted to address two questions because I think they're important. One
> will make some grit their teeth and the other will hopefully help to
> understand how things work inside the LibreOffice project and in other FOSS
> projects as well.
>
> * The notion that somehow we should just "redesign" the whole suite and in
> two releases we would get a beta obviously shows that someone does not even
> take the time to read what others actually wrote on this list, and then
> asking what a specification is also tends to point out that while opinions
> can be shared, they won't all be helpful. In Free Software (but this could
> be applied to several other fields as well) people contribute their time
> according to their abilities and skills. Some are developers and develop
> code. Some others test the software through various processes for quality
> assurance. Some others work in the infrastructure (website mirrors, etc.)
> Some others write documentation, while others localize (translate) the
> software. For some projects (not all), there are marketing people who write
> press releases, do market research, etc.  And there are as well designers
> and User Experience people; the former contribtue designs (generally it's
> the logo, or help with the website, etc.) and when it comes to the User
> Experience (UX for short) they study the whole usability of the software
> and then propose changes. The way they propose changes is by describing in
> full detail the change in question in a document called a specification.
> The reason they do this is that they want to document what they actually
> want so that others -the developers, the localizers, the documentation
> writers, sometimes the QA people and even the marketing team- can
> understand what they mean. The people who will be the most interested by
> the document will be the developers because you can show lots of pictures
> to a developer he's going to need a heck of a guidance to assess what is to
> be exactly done.
> If you don't have a spec, your wishes simply will not even be ignored; it
> will be like talking a foreign language no one in the room is able to
> understand. Thus, anyone who thinks we "just have to do it instead of
> bickering" is not just wrong, he's also lacking respect to the actual UX
> people trying to write specifications and to the developers. Unless
> someone's here a genius who has gotten exactly what the two Alex, Mirek,
> Kevin and others want and is able to code these changes right away, things
> will  not be working "just like that". If you want to code, go ahead and
> pull the git. If you want to work on design, go ahead, join the team and
> work with us. If you're just here for the sake of voicing your opinion then
> please be aware that this is a specialized mailing list;
> discuss@documentfoundation is much better suited to your needs.
>
> * There was the question of volunteers/money. It's an important, yet a
> tricky one sometimes. It was pointed out before that we're all volunteers;
> that's for a great part true. Some of our most active developers are
> actually employed by various companies (check our sponsors)  for what they
> do. In any case, the need has been seen, in some cases, that having
> volunteers to work on specific tasks and projects might actually not be
> enough, as these volunteers also have a day job. If they're skilled and
> knowledgeable enough and that the task at hand is daunting, you want to get
> the job done in a consistent way; or to put it simply: "it'll go easier if
> some people just could stop wondering how to pay their bills and eat so
> that they can dedicate their full time to the job here".So sometimes, you
> can propose to raise funds for a specific task and pay a certain number of
> people (actually in FOSS projects it's developers 99% of the time) to
> complete one or several specific tasks. The whole point is that it's meant
> to be temporary and exceptional (otherwise it could be argued you simply
> need more volunteers).  I hope it's helpful...
>
> Best,
> Charles.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The Start Center artwork

[Charles-H.Schulz]

Le dimanche 11 décembre 2011 à 16:48 +0100, alexander.wilms a écrit :
> Hi, Charles and Stefan,
> 
> 
> Actually, I didn't take the human theme folder Icon, but created a new one 
> based on an image I found. If this 
> (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Human_icons) is the correct theme, then 
> its apparently licensed under Creative Commons Legal Code 
> Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5.
> 
> Here are the new icons:
> 
> Extensions: http://ubuntuone.com/2pz9N2hXSbgxU1pEVcJFqR
> 
> Folder 2: http://ubuntuone.com/2D7EO1xOczgvX414xmZi1G (Based on the tango one)
> 
> Info: http://ubuntuone.com/0n8CVcgXnNY8hYO1mIBRTX
> 
> Templates: http://ubuntuone.com/3TODCaUqhlbHzv5CDOwodP
> 
> Should I maybe use another color than blue for the extension icon? And 
> regarding the document within the folder: Should that be a LO document or a 
> generic one?

You're asking a good question, and one I don't have the answer for. It's
likely the extension icon has been somewhat "standardized" but then it
was a long time ago. We could indeed change the colour to something
greenier, on the other hand, LO extensions are used by other suites...
Christoph, what do you think? Should we discuss this with the marketing
list as well?

best,
Charles.

> 
> 
> Greetings
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
>  On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:45:55 +0100 Stefan Knorr (Astron) 
>  wrote  
> 
> 
> Hi Charles, Alex,
> 
> the good news is, it isn't too late for 3.5 until we get to RC1 –
> there are some relevant Steering Call notes here I think, but I don't
> have them at hand right now.
> 
> The other thing is, for something this high-profile, a review+ from
> Christoph is probably in order.
> 
> Then, there's the licensing question... Alex, you (apparently) used
> the folder icon from Ubuntu's human theme and modified its hue for one
> of the folder images. That in itself is great (we are an open-source
> project after all), but I assume that the source image you took is not
> available under LGPL3+/MPL (which we require for new inclusions in
> LibO) [1]. I haven't checked the license, though; so if it's made
> available under another license, that might make my concerns
> irrelevant.
> 
> So, I just spend some time editing your Open File icon ... learned a
> bit about Inkscape and then when I was finished I also learned that
> there's a Tango theme in the public domain [2], they are not the most
> attractive Tango icons, but anyway, it made me feel like I had spent
> this morning rather pointlessly. Anyway, the result from my edits in
> your Open File image is here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Openfile.svg
> It is not perfect (there are some jagged edges etc.), but given that I
> am not the most talented artist, I think it is okay. One thing I
> noticed is that in the PD Tango icons, there is always a little
> document coming out of the folder. Maybe this should be added.
> 
> I will try myself at the triangular puzzle piece next. Let's see.
> 
> In any case, it would be wonderful, Alex, if you could make single SVG
> files at the right size for each of your icons. Please also add a
> shadow to them. The workflow is explained quite well here:
> http://vector.tutsplus.com/tutorials/illustration/how-to-create-a-vector-light-bulb-icon-with-inkscape/
> .
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Astron.
> 
> 
> [1] I know, we do include a PNG version of this same icon in LibO, but
> I still don't think you can just use the differently licensed SVG
> version for these purposes.
> [2] 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20090321201509/http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The Start Center artwork

[alexander.wilms]

Hi, Charles and Stefan,


Actually, I didn't take the human theme folder Icon, but created a new one 
based on an image I found. If this 
(http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Human_icons) is the correct theme, then its 
apparently licensed under Creative Commons Legal Code Attribution-ShareAlike 
2.5.

Here are the new icons:

Extensions: http://ubuntuone.com/2pz9N2hXSbgxU1pEVcJFqR

Folder 2: http://ubuntuone.com/2D7EO1xOczgvX414xmZi1G (Based on the tango one)

Info: http://ubuntuone.com/0n8CVcgXnNY8hYO1mIBRTX

Templates: http://ubuntuone.com/3TODCaUqhlbHzv5CDOwodP

Should I maybe use another color than blue for the extension icon? And 
regarding the document within the folder: Should that be a LO document or a 
generic one?


Greetings

Alex


 On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:45:55 +0100 Stefan Knorr (Astron) 
 wrote  


Hi Charles, Alex,

the good news is, it isn't too late for 3.5 until we get to RC1 –
there are some relevant Steering Call notes here I think, but I don't
have them at hand right now.

The other thing is, for something this high-profile, a review+ from
Christoph is probably in order.

Then, there's the licensing question... Alex, you (apparently) used
the folder icon from Ubuntu's human theme and modified its hue for one
of the folder images. That in itself is great (we are an open-source
project after all), but I assume that the source image you took is not
available under LGPL3+/MPL (which we require for new inclusions in
LibO) [1]. I haven't checked the license, though; so if it's made
available under another license, that might make my concerns
irrelevant.

So, I just spend some time editing your Open File icon ... learned a
bit about Inkscape and then when I was finished I also learned that
there's a Tango theme in the public domain [2], they are not the most
attractive Tango icons, but anyway, it made me feel like I had spent
this morning rather pointlessly. Anyway, the result from my edits in
your Open File image is here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Openfile.svg
It is not perfect (there are some jagged edges etc.), but given that I
am not the most talented artist, I think it is okay. One thing I
noticed is that in the PD Tango icons, there is always a little
document coming out of the folder. Maybe this should be added.

I will try myself at the triangular puzzle piece next. Let's see.

In any case, it would be wonderful, Alex, if you could make single SVG
files at the right size for each of your icons. Please also add a
shadow to them. The workflow is explained quite well here:
http://vector.tutsplus.com/tutorials/illustration/how-to-create-a-vector-light-bulb-icon-with-inkscape/
.

Regards,

Astron.


[1] I know, we do include a PNG version of this same icon in LibO, but
I still don't think you can just use the differently licensed SVG
version for these purposes.
[2] 
http://web.archive.org/web/20090321201509/http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library

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Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello all

I wanted to address two questions because I think they're important. One
will make some grit their teeth and the other will hopefully help to
understand how things work inside the LibreOffice project and in other FOSS
projects as well.

* The notion that somehow we should just "redesign" the whole suite and in
two releases we would get a beta obviously shows that someone does not even
take the time to read what others actually wrote on this list, and then
asking what a specification is also tends to point out that while opinions
can be shared, they won't all be helpful. In Free Software (but this could
be applied to several other fields as well) people contribute their time
according to their abilities and skills. Some are developers and develop
code. Some others test the software through various processes for quality
assurance. Some others work in the infrastructure (website mirrors, etc.)
Some others write documentation, while others localize (translate) the
software. For some projects (not all), there are marketing people who write
press releases, do market research, etc.  And there are as well designers
and User Experience people; the former contribtue designs (generally it's
the logo, or help with the website, etc.) and when it comes to the User
Experience (UX for short) they study the whole usability of the software
and then propose changes. The way they propose changes is by describing in
full detail the change in question in a document called a specification.
The reason they do this is that they want to document what they actually
want so that others -the developers, the localizers, the documentation
writers, sometimes the QA people and even the marketing team- can
understand what they mean. The people who will be the most interested by
the document will be the developers because you can show lots of pictures
to a developer he's going to need a heck of a guidance to assess what is to
be exactly done.
If you don't have a spec, your wishes simply will not even be ignored; it
will be like talking a foreign language no one in the room is able to
understand. Thus, anyone who thinks we "just have to do it instead of
bickering" is not just wrong, he's also lacking respect to the actual UX
people trying to write specifications and to the developers. Unless
someone's here a genius who has gotten exactly what the two Alex, Mirek,
Kevin and others want and is able to code these changes right away, things
will  not be working "just like that". If you want to code, go ahead and
pull the git. If you want to work on design, go ahead, join the team and
work with us. If you're just here for the sake of voicing your opinion then
please be aware that this is a specialized mailing list;
discuss@documentfoundation is much better suited to your needs.

* There was the question of volunteers/money. It's an important, yet a
tricky one sometimes. It was pointed out before that we're all volunteers;
that's for a great part true. Some of our most active developers are
actually employed by various companies (check our sponsors)  for what they
do. In any case, the need has been seen, in some cases, that having
volunteers to work on specific tasks and projects might actually not be
enough, as these volunteers also have a day job. If they're skilled and
knowledgeable enough and that the task at hand is daunting, you want to get
the job done in a consistent way; or to put it simply: "it'll go easier if
some people just could stop wondering how to pay their bills and eat so
that they can dedicate their full time to the job here".So sometimes, you
can propose to raise funds for a specific task and pay a certain number of
people (actually in FOSS projects it's developers 99% of the time) to
complete one or several specific tasks. The whole point is that it's meant
to be temporary and exceptional (otherwise it could be argued you simply
need more volunteers).  I hope it's helpful...

Best,
Charles.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The Start Center artwork

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Stefan,


2011/12/11 Stefan Knorr (Astron) 

> Hi Charles, Alex,
>
> the good news is, it isn't too late for 3.5 until we get to RC1 –
> there are some relevant Steering Call notes here I think, but I don't
> have them at hand right now.
>


If it's possible then let's do it, yes, but I think we should not worry if
it only gets in for the 3.6.


>
> The other thing is, for something this high-profile, a review+ from
> Christoph is probably in order.
>

yup, put him in cc.


>
> Then, there's the licensing question... Alex, you (apparently) used
> the folder icon from Ubuntu's human theme and modified its hue for one
> of the folder images. That in itself is great (we are an open-source
> project after all), but I assume that the source image you took is not
> available under LGPL3+/MPL (which we require for new inclusions in
> LibO) [1]. I haven't checked the license, though; so if it's made
> available under another license, that might make my concerns
> irrelevant.
>
> So, I just spend some time editing your Open File icon ... learned a
> bit about Inkscape and then when I was finished I also learned that
> there's a Tango theme in the public domain [2], they are not the most
> attractive Tango icons, but anyway, it made me feel like I had spent
> this morning rather pointlessly. Anyway, the result from my edits in
> your Open File image is here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Openfile.svg
> It is not perfect (there are some jagged edges etc.), but given that I
> am not the most talented artist, I think it is okay. One thing I
> noticed is that in the PD Tango icons, there is always a little
> document coming out of the folder. Maybe this should be added.
>
> I will try myself at the triangular puzzle piece next. Let's see.
>
> In any case, it would be wonderful, Alex, if you could make single SVG
> files at the right size for each of your icons. Please also add a
> shadow to them. The workflow is explained quite well here:
>
> http://vector.tutsplus.com/tutorials/illustration/how-to-create-a-vector-light-bulb-icon-with-inkscape/
>

good catch Alex, thank you a lot for your help!

best,
Charles.


> .
>
> Regards,
>
> Astron.
>
>
> [1] I know, we do include a PNG version of this same icon in LibO, but
> I still don't think you can just use the differently licensed SVG
> version for these purposes.
> [2]
> http://web.archive.org/web/20090321201509/http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] New icon set

[Tobias Bernard]

i'm in.

regarding tools and formats, i think inkscape + svg is the best solution
for the reasons mentioned here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Collaboration

tobias


2011/12/11 Mirek M. 

> Hi everyone,
> I want to talk about making a new icon set, if people here are up for it.
> The icon set would be much simpler than the current one, all icons
> utilizing only two colors. I'm bringing up the idea because I'd like to
> modernize the icon set.
> Here's the whiteboard:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set .
> Tell me if you'd be interested in working on this. If so, we'll need to
> decide on how to proceed, what format to use, what resolutions to develop,
> how we could automate converstion of colors to get a light version of the
> set and high-contrast versions, etc.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] New icon set

[Mirek M.]

Hi Stefan, Kévin, others,

2011/12/11 Stefan Knorr (Astron) 

> Hi,
>
> A good start might be to ask the LibO Faenza creator if he wants to
> re-license his theme under LGPL3+/MPL (as we can't use his icons under
> CC-BY-SA). See here:
> http://kadu20es.deviantart.com/art/Faenza-4-LibreOffice-3-4-213121128
> . Anyone up for this?
>

The Faenza icon theme might serve as a good starting point, but I'd like to
draft up some specifications for the icons first. We need to agree on a
common look and discuss matters like, icon size, general line thickness,
and other design matters, plus the whole creation process in general.

@Kévin: Yes, I'd like the icons to be color-coded according to what they
apply to (the color codes are discussed on the wiki page I linked to), but,
ultimately, it's up to the community to decide.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The Start Center artwork

[Stefan Knorr (Astron)]

Hi Charles, Alex,

the good news is, it isn't too late for 3.5 until we get to RC1 –
there are some relevant Steering Call notes here I think, but I don't
have them at hand right now.

The other thing is, for something this high-profile, a review+ from
Christoph is probably in order.

Then, there's the licensing question... Alex, you (apparently) used
the folder icon from Ubuntu's human theme and modified its hue for one
of the folder images. That in itself is great (we are an open-source
project after all), but I assume that the source image you took is not
available under LGPL3+/MPL (which we require for new inclusions in
LibO) [1]. I haven't checked the license, though; so if it's made
available under another license, that might make my concerns
irrelevant.

So, I just spend some time editing your Open File icon ... learned a
bit about Inkscape and then when I was finished I also learned that
there's a Tango theme in the public domain [2], they are not the most
attractive Tango icons, but anyway, it made me feel like I had spent
this morning rather pointlessly. Anyway, the result from my edits in
your Open File image is here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Openfile.svg
It is not perfect (there are some jagged edges etc.), but given that I
am not the most talented artist, I think it is okay. One thing I
noticed is that in the PD Tango icons, there is always a little
document coming out of the folder. Maybe this should be added.

I will try myself at the triangular puzzle piece next. Let's see.

In any case, it would be wonderful, Alex, if you could make single SVG
files at the right size for each of your icons. Please also add a
shadow to them. The workflow is explained quite well here:
http://vector.tutsplus.com/tutorials/illustration/how-to-create-a-vector-light-bulb-icon-with-inkscape/
.

Regards,

Astron.


[1] I know, we do include a PNG version of this same icon in LibO, but
I still don't think you can just use the differently licensed SVG
version for these purposes.
[2] 
http://web.archive.org/web/20090321201509/http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library

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Re: [libreoffice-design] New icon set

[Stefan Knorr (Astron)]

Hi,

A good start might be to ask the LibO Faenza creator if he wants to
re-license his theme under LGPL3+/MPL (as we can't use his icons under
CC-BY-SA). See here:
http://kadu20es.deviantart.com/art/Faenza-4-LibreOffice-3-4-213121128
. Anyone up for this?

Astron.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Mobile icons

[Kévin PEIGNOT]

We should look too,at the faenza ones, they can be great too !

Kévin

2011/12/10 Andrew Pullins 

> Oh I forgot
>
> each of the icons in the SVG section are separate links, and I do not know
> why they look like they do one the wiki page
>
> cheers.
> andrew
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] New icon set

[Kévin PEIGNOT]

Hy !

I'm in ! Im not a good designer and I have not a lot of time but I hope I
could help to brainstorm, class icons  and other little tasks (even if I
have not a lot of time)

First question. Will we follow your citrus proposal (color depending on
what part the icon affects (texts, image, document ...)

Kévin
Le 11 déc. 2011 00:22, "Mirek M."  a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
> I want to talk about making a new icon set, if people here are up for it.
> The icon set would be much simpler than the current one, all icons
> utilizing only two colors. I'm bringing up the idea because I'd like to
> modernize the icon set.
> Here's the whiteboard:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Flat_icon_set .
> Tell me if you'd be interested in working on this. If so, we'll need to
> decide on how to proceed, what format to use, what resolutions to develop,
> how we could automate converstion of colors to get a light version of the
> set and high-contrast versions, etc.
>
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