Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hello Michel, I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much). Comments inline. Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200, Michel Renon a écrit : > Hi, > > This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months. > I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's > useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear > answer to K-J. > > Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback ! > But I see that there is no real reactions. > > Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit : > > Hi Kendy, Mirek, *, > > Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky: > > > > [...] > > > >> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) > >> > >> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the > >> 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better > >> first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... > >> > >> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( > > > > What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in > > discussion. > > > First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a > huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design > process : > - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, > validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to > present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do > more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) > are the same. It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has. > > - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX > > - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely > improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, > you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of > July, half time of GSOC. We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced a proper whiteboards-based process. Again: this is a community, you don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the blue. > > - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no > blueprint...) Yup, on the other it's called software freedom > > - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX > brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y. > > > > > > Do we > > - use the proposal Mateusz gave us? > > While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations. Why are they broken? > However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly > propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a > graphist (not a UX designer). True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not an UX designer? If you know about an UX designer who could contribute his/her time here, please bring him/her here. > > > - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"? > > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean . > If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), > then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless. Your judgement, not everyone's. > > > - announce it? > > No ! > > > - start other things? > > - left it all? > > I propose to mix those 2 points : > - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the > LO4.1 start center > - start a new process to design a new new start center : > - involve devs, QA team, a11y team The Design and UX team does involve developers already > - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3]) MIMO can join this mailing list at anytime. > - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ? This is a Free Software project. You can't really stop people from doing what they want and like, and we are a community. > - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by > every team No. It needs validation by the development team for feasibility, marketing; perhaps NLC if they find something problematic. But asking each and everyone will not work because you will never reach 100% agreement. And FWIW I had my share of disagreements with this team. > - only then, start to implement it > > It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical > product, a building...). We don't build a product, we build a community. If you want to build a product, please talk to MS Office, they're pretty good at that. > > The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot > himself in the foot : > - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4]) I don't think so, but I assume you know Henry Ford's famous sentence: "if I were to listen to my customers I'd still be selling horse carriages". > - no roadmap (Charles clearly
Re: [libreoffice-design] Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2
Hi, This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months. I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear answer to K-J. Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback ! But I see that there is no real reactions. Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit : Hi Kendy, Mirek, *, Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky: [...] Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-) I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'... Sorry for not being clear in my request :-( What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion. First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process : - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies, validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the same. - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of GSOC. - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...) - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y. Do we - use the proposal Mateusz gave us? While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations. However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a graphist (not a UX designer). - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean . If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless. - announce it? No ! - start other things? - left it all? I propose to mix those 2 points : - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1 start center - start a new process to design a new new start center : - involve devs, QA team, a11y team - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3]) - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ? - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by every team - only then, start to implement it It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical product, a building...). The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself in the foot : - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4]) - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5]) - incoherent UI/UX [6][7] - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8] - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and today the start center) All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts are here : http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one answer). Now back to my silence for a long time. Regards, Michel Renon [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/GSoC/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center [2] http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-July/002218.html [3] MIMO is related to some french administrations that are users of LO. You can ask Arnaud Versini (dev/qa team) who knows some of them. [4] http://www.dgsiegel.net/news/2013_07_27-on_why_removing_features_makes_people_unhappy The last paragraph is abysmal : "and since i understand why people react this way, i can smilingly fall back in my chair and enjoy reading mean comments with a bag of popcorn." [5] http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/06/03/making-sense-of-the-new-features-in-libreoffice-4-1/ : "When it comes to the reliance of Java, there does not seem to be a master plan either. To be honest, we at LibreOffice do not really like master plans. Why? Because we know that a true Free and Open Source Software project works through its community, and a diverse community of contributors simply has a diverse set of interests otherwise known as “itches to scratch”. Therefore we don’t tell contributors to develop this or that. Patches are submitted and unless they break stuff, do not work with the existing codebase or simply suck, we accept them. That’s
Re: [libreoffice-design] Default Writer Template
Hi Ahmad, On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Ahmad Hussein Al-Harthi < aalhar...@kacst.edu.sa> wrote: > Hi all, > > > From: *Nagy Ákos* > > > > I recomand to change the Footnote Charecters style too. > > Usualy users and publishers like that the Footnote Characters is in > > Superscript. For this you need to change the "Footnote Charecters" > > Character Style. > >Done, thanks for the comment :) > > > > > From: *Merik* > > > > Sorry for the late reply. > > So, my comments: > > I'd still like Headings to be Sans and the text Serif, or vice versa. > I'm not alone in this idea -- using a different font for headings and for > body text is a common practice. There are websites dedicated to font > pairings, and the use of these pairings is why OOXML themes let the user > choose a font for headings and a different font for body text. > >I'm not against the idea, but try it on low reselution screens. I > didn't like mixed Liberation sans and serif... > I am trying it on my netbook, with the resolution of 1024*576 -- not the worst of resolutions, but certainly could be better. We've been using the combination for quite some time and I haven't heard major complaints. I'd like to stick with it. >Anyway, I made your changes plus others, please let me know what you > think? > * Text body should be 12pt for better legibility. * Headings should be better differentiated. The size differences are obvious when compared near each other, but are easily lost in large bodies of text. I'd be happier if bold, italic, and color were used for differentiation. * As per http://practicaltypography.com/summary-of-key-rules.html, I'd say underlining should not be used in headings. > > > I'm a bit concerned about centering table contents. Centered text is > generally harder to read and can get in the way if you have to compare > data. I'd rather they were left-aligned (right-aligned for RTL languages, > of course). > >Yes, you're right. > Please update this in your proposal. :) > >> In general, I'd like styles to be relative, not hard-coded. That > means that the Heading style should hold the font family, for example, not > each individual heading. > >This needs some work, which I'll try to be involved in some time later. > The whole styling system needs a review and reorganizing. > Sounds good. > > > I now also realize why the LibreOffice styles used decimal point values > -- the headings were saved as percentages, which, come to think of it, > isn't a bad idea. > >Percentage is and ems are the future, since we're going to support web, > Android, and others. > What I meant was that substyles used percentage values of the parent style, which was still in points. In general, we should stick to points, at least with Writer, as it's tailored toward print. > > > I'm still not entirely happy with the headings. As I said earlier, I'd > prefer if superior headings weren't lighter than subordinate headings (i.e. > Heading 3 shouldn't be lighter than Heading 5) and I'd like there to be > some differentiation between heading 7-10. > >Done, but Isn't better we get rid of headings 7-10? > OK, I guess that sounds good. > > > I'd also like the subtitle to be lighter. > >Done. > > > > Here's something more along the lines of what I'd imagine: > http://ubuntuone.com/4Ng8kwHYlwY3Cs32cEr2y2 . (There are a few more > elements used in the document, remove them for a direct comparison.) > > Please let me know about this one > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d6/Template_mixed_fonts.odtI've > removed bold weights from all headings, sans vs serif should make > headers clear wihtout being bold. Notice the spaces around table elements. > > > >Ahmad > > *Warning: *This message and its attachment, if any, are confidential and > may contain information protected by law. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and > its attachment, if any. You should not copy the message and its attachment, > if any, or disclose its contents to any other person or use it for any > purpose. Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail and its > attachment, if any, are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect > those of King Abdulaziz city for Science and Technology (KACST) in the > Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. KACST accepts no liability for any damage caused > by this email. > > *تحذير:* هذه الرسالة وما تحويه من مرفقات (إن وجدت) تمثل وثيقة سرية قد > تحتوي على معلومات محمية بموجب القانون. إذا لم تكن الشخص المعني بهذه الرسالة > فيجب عليك تنبيه المُرسل بخطأ وصولها إليك، وحذف الرسالة ومرفقاتها (إن وجدت)، > ولا يجوز لك نسخ أو توزيع هذه الرسالة أو مرفقاتها (إن وجدت) أو أي جزء منها، > أو البوح بمحتوياتها للغير أو استعمالها لأي غرض. علماً بأن فحوى هذه الرسالة > ومرفقاتها (ان وجدت) تعبر عن رأي المُرسل وليس بالضرورة رأي مدينة الملك > عبدالعزيز للعلوم والتقنية بالمملكة العربية السعودية، ولا تتحمل المدينة أي > مسئولية عن الأضرار الناتجة عن ما ق
