Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[kainz.a]

the grid isn't really usefull in LibreOffice and the main reason is that
it's not really visible. I prefer the grid in Inkscape but in LibreOffice
it's not really useful.

cheers
Andreas

2018-05-31 14:41 GMT+02:00 Maarten Brouwers :

> Typically lurking here, but this touches an important issue.
>
> > If a sighted person report to us the contrast is not good we shouldn't
> think in term of number of people, IMO we should think in term of
> usability. Most of visual-impaired people I've met and also myself need
> contrasted stuff on their screen. It's also useful for elderly people and
> most of people we obtain a better UX on their computer.
>
> Made a similar comment in bugzilla: https://bugs.
> documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348#c23  documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348> …also you don’t turn on
> gridlines to be subtle, you turn them on to be useful. Perfectly sighted
> people can sometimes be "visually impaired" when working outside in the
> sun, have a low quality screen, etc. Pedro is right here.
>
> g.,
>
> Maarten
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[Maarten Brouwers]

Typically lurking here, but this touches an important issue.

> If a sighted person report to us the contrast is not good we shouldn't think 
> in term of number of people, IMO we should think in term of usability. Most 
> of visual-impaired people I've met and also myself need contrasted stuff on 
> their screen. It's also useful for elderly people and most of people we 
> obtain a better UX on their computer.

Made a similar comment in bugzilla: 
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348#c23 
 …also you don’t 
turn on gridlines to be subtle, you turn them on to be useful. Perfectly 
sighted people can sometimes be "visually impaired" when working outside in the 
sun, have a low quality screen, etc. Pedro is right here.

g.,

Maarten



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[Alex ARNAUD]

Le 31/05/2018 à 11:08, Heiko Tietze a écrit :

On 31.05.2018 10:58, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:

   * Gridlines on zoom
    +https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
    + different color (dark grey) (Pedro)
      + available as option (see c15) (Regina)
    + adjust dot's distance depending on zoom factor (Heiko)
    + dots should remain a reasonable size and shift in conjunction with 
zoom (Stuart)
    => change it similar to dashed line of text boxes; zoom in goes with 
smaller distance and larger dots

​Since I was traveling home and couldn't join:

As Regina said, it is possible to change color now (and I changed the color in 
my instalation) however LO needs sane defaults that make it usable by most 
people.
It's a bit silly to keep a default color for the dots with terrible contrast 
and visibility from the time of Open Office...
The grid is turned off by default already. Anyone that turns it on, is because 
it needs to use it as an auxiliary tool. If it's barely visible, because it is 
Light Gray on White Background then it becomes nearly useless.
Also the steps to change its color require the user to really dig deep into the 
options menu. Should we expect that from a novice user or even an intermediate 
user?

You are the only advocate of a darker color and we agreed in the meeting to 
keep the light grey. It works perfectly at 100% and just needs adjustment for 
other zoom levels.


I know I'm discussing after the meeting but you could add me in CC of 
such bugs if you want me to see them.


If a sighted person report to us the contrast is not good we shouldn't 
think in term of number of people, IMO we should think in term of 
usability. Most of visual-impaired people I've met and also myself need 
contrasted stuff on their screen. It's also useful for elderly people 
and most of people we obtain a better UX on their computer.


Pedro is fully right, PowerPoint is more contrasted than LibreOffice 
Impress in his screenshots. Why we shouldn't be as contrasted as 
PowerPoint ? It's not needed to have a dotted background but having 
black dot on rectangle box is, indeed, helpful.


The accessibility guidelines of the W3C WCAG 2.0 guidelines specify to 
use a contrast level of at least 4.5 : see 
https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-contrast.html


@Heiko: Hope my feedback could help to decide.

Best regards,
Alex.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It's a pity I wasn't present to make my case. :(

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:08 AM Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> On 31.05.2018 10:58, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >   * Gridlines on zoom
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
> >+ different color (dark grey) (Pedro)
> >  + available as option (see c15) (Regina)
> >+ adjust dot's distance depending on zoom factor (Heiko)
> >+ dots should remain a reasonable size and shift in conjunction
> with zoom (Stuart)
> >=> change it similar to dashed line of text boxes; zoom in goes
> with smaller distance and larger dots
> >
> > ​Since I was traveling home and couldn't join:
> >
> > As Regina said, it is possible to change color now (and I changed the
> color in my instalation) however LO needs sane defaults that make it usable
> by most people.
> > It's a bit silly to keep a default color for the dots with terrible
> contrast and visibility from the time of Open Office...
> > The grid is turned off by default already. Anyone that turns it on, is
> because it needs to use it as an auxiliary tool. If it's barely visible,
> because it is Light Gray on White Background then it becomes nearly useless.
> > Also the steps to change its color require the user to really dig deep
> into the options menu. Should we expect that from a novice user or even an
> intermediate user?
>
> You are the only advocate of a darker color and we agreed in the meeting
> to keep the light grey. It works perfectly at 100% and just needs
> adjustment for other zoom levels.
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[Heiko Tietze]

On 31.05.2018 10:58, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>   * Gridlines on zoom
>    + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
>    + different color (dark grey) (Pedro)
>      + available as option (see c15) (Regina)
>    + adjust dot's distance depending on zoom factor (Heiko)
>    + dots should remain a reasonable size and shift in conjunction with 
> zoom (Stuart)
>    => change it similar to dashed line of text boxes; zoom in goes with 
> smaller distance and larger dots
> 
> ​Since I was traveling home and couldn't join:
> 
> As Regina said, it is possible to change color now (and I changed the color 
> in my instalation) however LO needs sane defaults that make it usable by most 
> people.
> It's a bit silly to keep a default color for the dots with terrible contrast 
> and visibility from the time of Open Office...
> The grid is turned off by default already. Anyone that turns it on, is 
> because it needs to use it as an auxiliary tool. If it's barely visible, 
> because it is Light Gray on White Background then it becomes nearly useless.
> Also the steps to change its color require the user to really dig deep into 
> the options menu. Should we expect that from a novice user or even an 
> intermediate user?

You are the only advocate of a darker color and we agreed in the meeting to 
keep the light grey. It works perfectly at 100% and just needs adjustment for 
other zoom levels.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

  * Gridlines on zoom
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
>+ different color (dark grey) (Pedro)
>  + available as option (see c15) (Regina)
>+ adjust dot's distance depending on zoom factor (Heiko)
>+ dots should remain a reasonable size and shift in conjunction with
> zoom (Stuart)
>=> change it similar to dashed line of text boxes; zoom in goes with
> smaller distance and larger dots
>

​Since I was traveling home and couldn't join:

As Regina said, it is possible to change color now (and I changed the color
in my instalation) however LO needs sane defaults that make it usable by
most people.
It's a bit silly to keep a default color for the dots with terrible
contrast and visibility from the time of Open Office...
The grid is turned off by default already. Anyone that turns it on, is
because it needs to use it as an auxiliary tool. If it's barely visible,
because it is Light Gray on White Background then it becomes nearly
useless.
Also the steps to change its color require the user to really dig deep into
the options menu. Should we expect that from a novice user or even an
intermediate user?

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