Re: [libreoffice-design] export HTML
On 11/04/2012 04:14 PM, Rob Snelders wrote: But has this still any value? IMO not anymore. I'd rather see options such as HTML4, HTML5, or just drop these options and simply output the standard HTML4/5. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator
On 06/04/2012 08:54 AM, nick rundy wrote: But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show modification status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of this? Yes. For now it's the indicator in the status bar. And (as I understand it) folks here are discussing about moving it to somewhere else to places such as the title bar. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator
On 06/03/2012 11:25 AM, Mirek M. wrote: 2012/6/3 Jean-Francois Nifeneckerjean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net Le 31/05/2012 21:29, Kohei Yoshida a écrit : There is another reason for that. Document not only store its content but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't trigger a document modified status. Here, view properties include things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom level etc. But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've changed, and always enabling the save action allows this. Disabling the save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard. Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view change. I beg to differ. A document is either changed and needs saving or is not and... doesn't. Conversely, if changing a property needs saving, then the document *is* changed. +1 It's not a matter of opinion, but of technicality. Any software that deals with complex documents is designed this way, and that's not going to change it. Not to mention changing this principle would basically means that you are writing a new app from scratch, since everything else is built on this principle in our code base. I for one am not interested in such effort. That's all I have to say. If people still don't see my point after this, then I suggest we agree to disagree, and avoid further wasting time on this topic. Peace, Kohei Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator
On 06/03/2012 12:11 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote: Hi all, @Christoph: Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel safe. If that was the case, then it would have been a better idea to focus on the following things: * get document backup/restoration reliable enough for everyone (something like backup-as-you-type maybe) So, I agree with the idea itself. But for this to work comfortably the save operation must be fast enough (since backup just means saving the current document somewhere on disk), and that's the hard part. Actually calling this hard itself is a massive understatement, but I won't go into the details. Having said that, making the load/save operation faster is always our priority. It just takes a long time to achieve it (i.e. in units of years). * make sure, Ooo doesn't crash (and if it crashes, that it doesn't take all opened documents with it – for instance, similar to how Chrome separates tabs) So, the technical description of this is to put each application in a separate process, which Chrome does. This is one of the things I've been very much interested in personally, but comes with a steep technical hurdle as well. That said, someday I'd like us to give this a try, perhaps when all this effort to clean up the code base etc. settles down a bit. This would also solve many others issues that we currently have in our code base, not just the issue of crashes. So, to me, this is a goal worth chasing. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator
Hi there, Let me chime in since I'm the one who put that setting there. On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 21:04 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Mirek, all! Am Donnerstag, den 31.05.2012, 20:29 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.: 2012/5/31 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com Am Mittwoch, den 30.05.2012, 16:42 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms: actually, the save icon in the top toolbar should be enough, don't you think? It's greyed out if there's nothing to save and makes the indicator superfluous. Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel safe. There is another reason for that. Document not only store its content but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't trigger a document modified status. Here, view properties include things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom level etc. But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've changed, and always enabling the save action allows this. Disabling the save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard. Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view change. This is only a setting, and it's disabled by default (at least on my machine). Ah, didn't know that. Thanks! Do you know why this is a setting at all? Do we alter the behavior dependent on the platform? This is a setting because of the presence of those users who wish to use the save icon as an indication of document modified status. To me that's a mis-use of the icon but this practice is widespread in some circles. It's disabled by default only because we wanted to preserve the old OOo behavior. But I have been asked about enabling this by default several times in the past. Out of interest, could you point me to the feedback you mentioned? Nope, sorry. It was directly targeted at the OOo UX team (maybe even part of their usability studies). I had some private conversations where they mentioned it (if I remember well enough). I also had private conversations with folks who asked me about enabling the save at all times. In fact, I myself depend on this very functionality, in order to save the precise state of the view properties with a document. So, finally, if there is a need to further cleanup the status bar, then I'd propose to go with (unsaved) instead of the asterisk for the title bar. Example for unsaved changes: Strategy Document (unsaved) - LibreOffice Writer Fine with me, as long as it only happens if the allow to save document even when the document is not modified setting is on. Here I don't fully understand your rationale - I'd go for consistency similar to the document symbol in the status bar (always there). Of course there are plenty of alternatives - introducing stuff like a proxy icons (similar to Mac OS X), or extending the Save Icon by an own indicator. Or ... To be honest, I feel like this is too much complication to satisfy a very small fraction of the userbase, at a cost to the general userbase. Every other application I know disables Save when the file is saved, and there's not any consumer backlash there. IMO it's dangerous to assume that only a fraction of the user base needs this functionality. Again, I myself depend on this functionality, and I've got in touch with several other users who needed this as well. Given that I don't go out interacting with gazillions of users (I only interact with perhaps a dozen), this is quite significant. Also, the majority of applications that *I* personally touch always enable the save icon. Obviously there are some personal variations with experiences here. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 22:54 -0400, Jay Lozier wrote: The grayed out Save button in LO also indicates that the document in unchanged since the last change. This is a very handy at a glance feature to know the save status. *sigh* I guess the mis-use is very much prevalent. Since we are now going in circles, I'll resign myself from further discussion. Have a nice day. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Model View separation?
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 00:31 +, Greg wrote: How modular is the LibO code base? In other words, do we have separate * document model (Model) * page renderer | slide renderer | drawing renderer c. (View) * bunch of action modules (one for each user action), that can be rendered as menu/context items, toolbar items, or API calls (Controller) At the framework level this sort of model view separation is enforced, and each menu item, icon, context menu item etc is represented internally as a command, which is mapped to an event ID. Also these commands are what you see in the list of actions in the key bindings page. I suppose that answers your question. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 13:18 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: Any thoughts? Before we go overboard with this, I'd like to point out that a lot of us developers have already gone through quite a lot of brainstorming and trials and errors, and I don't want us to discuss this over here on the design list as if none of the prior discussions and prototypes ever happened. Plus, the input we get on this list from other stake holders and potential implementers are very limited. So, if you are interested in discussing what the implementation should be like, let's discuss this on the developer list. Kohei -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 18:11 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Kohei, hi Scott! Kohei, thanks for the helpful information here ... great that you're listening here (especially since I know your workload...)! No problem. I decided to jump in because we (the developers) have been discussing this matter to death. So, this is not just a concern for the UI designers alone. Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 10:25 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida: On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote: Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template? Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start... We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane approach. In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did use an XML-based UI definition format. Some of these files are still around in the code base though we are on their way out. So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely. As far as I know, there have been several attempts to solve this issue. For example, at the OOoCon 2010 I attended a presentation related to XML based UI declaration ... http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/199 (see also the presentation download) Sun/Oracle also thought about that ... during my visit in Hamburg early 2010, we discussed how e.g. toolpanes might ideally behave - some improvements about what we have today. Here, ideally mainly refers to its technical behavior to detach/attach them anywhere. In this discussion, XML based UI stuff was mentioned as well. Here is the blog post - no technical relevance, but maybe interesting: http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/01/ux-meeting-in-hamburg-day-two.html Thanks for the info. FYI we (the Go-OO team) had worked on introducing the new UI layout engine as well. Though that attempt didn't really materialize, we are very much interested in giving it another go. So this is very important to all of us, and many of us have been scratching our heads trying to figure out what best to do to bring it forward. We've looked through pretty much all existing frameworks but none of them fit our need without making major compromise somewhere. And to be honest replacing one cross-platform framework (VCL) with another one may not solve the issue, no matter how good some people believe the replacement is. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?)
On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 20:49 +0200, RGB ES wrote: Indeed. Correct me if I'm wrong (my technical background in not deep enough) but I think the problem is that OOo/LibO is using some archaic (and arcane) set of libraries to draw its UI called VCL, that no one else use. Yes. This is correct. Its design is so 20th century, to put it mildly. As a matter of fact, OOo/LibO is NOT a GTK app, but a VCL app that can connect to GTK or Qt libraries through VCL plugins.(1) Yup. The plugins do the actual drawing while VCL defines what to draw and where etc. But because Switching to a more modern set of libraries will easy the task of desktop integration preserving at the same time its own layout. But as always, writing the word switching is a lot easier that the switch itself. Yes. Different approaches are taken by different cross-platform apps, and there is no one best approach to this cross-platform GUI situation (as Christoph hinted earlier). (1) Chakra project recently published a LibO version 100% GTK free: http://chakra-project.org/news/index.php?/archives/175-LibreOffice-available-for-testing-Be-free.html Interesting. BTW, building LibO without GTK dependency should be possible by simply setting the right build option (in theory). So, anyone who can build it can try it. The core of LibO does not depend on the GTK libraries the last I checked. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for Saving Information icons on Status Bar
Hi Christoph, On Sat, 2011-03-12 at 13:23 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote: Kohei, would it make sense to turn this into an easy hack? Background: Improve the feedback for the user if a document has been saved recently. This feedback will be shown by extending the already available document symbol in the status bar. * Document Symbol Empty: Show if the document has been newly created, or the content is unchanged in comparison to the saved version. * Document Symbol Orange Star: Show if the document has been unsaved changes or a document saving process is still running. * Document Symbol Green Checkmark: Show for 3 seconds after a document saving process has been finished. Then switch to document symbol Empty (see above). Skills: ??? Contact: LibreOffice Design Team (Paulo) Resources: ??? exported document symbol files Yes. Feel free to put this into easy hack. I'll fill in the missing bits (Skills etc) later. But let's put this up on the page first. Thanks! Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc kyosh...@novell.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
