[libreoffice-design] Re: Offering fonts relevant to the user's chosen language - following UX/design meeting 2024-Sep-25
On Thu, 2024-09-26 at 00:28 +0300, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > In LibreOffice, we currently partition typefaces, like languages, > into three language-groups: Western, RTL-CTL, and CJK These categories of RTL+CTL/Complex and CJK/EastAsian are baked into the odf and open xml file formats, so whatever about how they are presented in the UI the categorization itself at an internal level is probably unavoidable. > Doing this is not just a UI challenge; it also involves a bit of a > technical challenge: We will have some not-entirely-trivial > heuristics for deciding whether a typeface passes muster as > "covering" a written language, or not. FWIW with fontconfig, you can see its estimate of language cover, e.g. $ fc-list -v "Carlito" ... lang: ... |ha|haw|ho| ... ... while for $ fc-list -v "David Libre" ... lang: ... |ha|he|ho| ... ... Which is presumably derived from the glyph coverage of the font. There are some existing efforts in svtools/source/misc/sampletext.cxx for determining script coverage for a font for the purposes of generating a relevant preview string. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Offering fonts relevant to the user's chosen language - following UX/design meeting 2024-Sep-25
Let me elaborate in a sentence on the importance, for non-Western-language speakers, of bug 151122; and possibly try convincing developers, UI/UX designers and even marketing people about its significance. In LibreOffice, we currently partition typefaces, like languages, into three language-groups: Western, RTL-CTL, and CJK [1]. When you choose a typeface, you only select from the typefaces associated with the relevant written language groups. [2] But - there are multiple languages in each group, using different alphabets. So when you want to select a typeface for your language - you are likely met with a long list of typefaces which _don't_ have the glyphs for your language - and you can't use them. And this happens each and every time. This is frustrating - especially since LO is aware of the language you're using. [3] So, the ongoing discussion is about how to arrange it for users to be able to select a typeface from language Foo from the list of typefaces which support Foo. This is actually an issue in multiple applications, not just ours; this is also a chance to be trailblazers UI-wise, and score a win over the alternative office suites as well (MSO, OnlyO etc. - I don't think any of them handles this well, correct me if I'm wrong). Note that this is relevant for the "Western" language group as well: Think of a document involving both Bulgarian and Turkish. Many typefaces designed for Latin alphabets (which would work for the latter two) simply don't have Cyrillic glyphs (which Bulgarian uses, as does Russian). For the Bulgarian text, you want to see the list of 20 fonts which cover the Cyrillic alphabet, not the 100 fonts which cover the Latin alphabet (and hopefully also Doing this is not just a UI challenge; it also involves a bit of a technical challenge: We will have some not-entirely-trivial heuristics for deciding whether a typeface passes muster as "covering" a written language, or not. We don't want to have to recompute this again and again, so there's the question of when and how much of it to precompute; whether to persist the precomputed information; when to update it etc. Eyal PS - Thanks Heiko for bringing it up for discussion and everyone who has commented already. Special thanks to Jonathan for helping me realize that "coverage" is a more complex question for CJK languages because of the situation with ideograms which I've not gotten into here. [1]: That is actually a problem in itself; see https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162331 and [2]: The same typeface can be associated with multiple language groups of course. [3]: LO's idea of what language you want to use is not always correct, but that's a different matter. Also, at least in Format > Character... you literally choose the language you're interested in. On 25/09/2024 22:46, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: Sahil, Lorenz, John, Heiko Comments: Regina, Stuart, Manu, Roman, Laurent, Regina Tickets/Topics * Want access from borders toolbar menubutton to Format > Cells... Borders pane + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162967 + valid request, similar to many other places (Regina, Stuart, Eyal) + toolbar buttons should be simple and provide quick and easy access (Heiko) + could be done similar to Underline (Sahil) + Ribbon always offer access to more properties (Eyal) => go it (consider Border Style as well) * Need way to avoid selecting fonts which don't cover the relevant language Unicode range + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151122 + comment 32: add a filter to the special character dialog + rather use/improve the Special Characters dialog or maybe extend the SCD with a font filter (Stuart) + such a filter could be added to the font tab (Heiko) + it is not the request; would not give an immediate understanding (Eyal) + unicode blocks not necessarily cover some font, eg. Farsi or diacritics in general (Eyal) + make live preview as known from Calc available in Writer (Manu) + could be done as a checkbox "[ ] Fonts covering the selection" in the character dialog (Heiko) + selection is not always present (Eyal) + would be actually against the use case of "I want to write a text in some language and don't know the right font" since text has been written in this case (Heiko) + proposing (Eyal) 1. map languages to glyphs like English A:Z, German A:Z,ß, Arabic 2. when a language is used (UI, document, etc) the list of fonts is tagged as appropriate; and fonts are indicated (could be done by dimming) or filtered (prefer a filter) 3. doubt hat filtering covers the use case (Heiko); corner cases such as multi-selections for later (Eyal) + expertise from local communities needed (John, Sahil, Lorenz) => continue the discussion on the ticket * Reworked localized Impress te
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Sep-25
Present: Sahil, Lorenz, John, Heiko Comments: Regina, Stuart, Manu, Roman, Laurent, Regina Tickets/Topics * Want access from borders toolbar menubutton to Format > Cells... Borders pane + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162967 + valid request, similar to many other places (Regina, Stuart, Eyal) + toolbar buttons should be simple and provide quick and easy access (Heiko) + could be done similar to Underline (Sahil) + Ribbon always offer access to more properties (Eyal) => go it (consider Border Style as well) * Need way to avoid selecting fonts which don't cover the relevant language Unicode range + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151122 + comment 32: add a filter to the special character dialog + rather use/improve the Special Characters dialog or maybe extend the SCD with a font filter (Stuart) + such a filter could be added to the font tab (Heiko) + it is not the request; would not give an immediate understanding (Eyal) + unicode blocks not necessarily cover some font, eg. Farsi or diacritics in general (Eyal) + make live preview as known from Calc available in Writer (Manu) + could be done as a checkbox "[ ] Fonts covering the selection" in the character dialog (Heiko) + selection is not always present (Eyal) + would be actually against the use case of "I want to write a text in some language and don't know the right font" since text has been written in this case (Heiko) + proposing (Eyal) 1. map languages to glyphs like English A:Z, German A:Z,ß, Arabic 2. when a language is used (UI, document, etc) the list of fonts is tagged as appropriate; and fonts are indicated (could be done by dimming) or filtered (prefer a filter) 3. doubt hat filtering covers the use case (Heiko); corner cases such as multi-selections for later (Eyal) + expertise from local communities needed (John, Sahil, Lorenz) => continue the discussion on the ticket * Reworked localized Impress templates look ugly in RU + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162878 -> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163116 + patches fix most issues except Freshes - c14, c16 (Roman, Laurent) + alternative could be some generic text like Alpha Beta... or we delete the example slide completely (Heiko) + but actually would keep it (Heiko) + localized "Some Text 1", "Some Text 2" (Sahil) or without the text (Lorenz) + localization to RTL would still be silly (Eyal) + some people may even not be able to read the letters (Eyal) + morse alphabet... ;-) (Sahil) + we could ship localized templates (Sahil) => keep as it is for now (aka WF) * New layouts for LO Impress + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93087 + Handout and Notes suggestions seem useful (Stuart) + rather make it customizable, bug 78156 (Regina) + customization on top would be great but some good defaults are needed anyway + before/after needed to decide (Eyal) + no harm in adding more layouts (John) => proposals are fine and implementation is welcome -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] No design/UX meeting until 2024-Oct-17 (THU)
Hello everyone, there will be no regular design/UX meeting until Oct/17. I try to announce the agenda as soon as possible but not before CW42. All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Sep/25. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00112.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Sep-19
Present: Sahil, Rafael, Heiko Comments: Stuart, Eyal, Cor, Regina Tickets/Topics * Sidebar panel character deck/tab doesn't allow switching / indicate language groups + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153991 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153992 + we should avoid bloating the sidebar (Heiko) + not against (Rafael) + most controls are in the toolbar as well, we probably need to implement it as a customizable UNO command (Sahil) + should be only available if CTL/CJK is checked (Rafael, Heiko) + could be realized per dropdown before the font listbox although it takes some space + unclear what switching could mean; isn't it recognized from the character language only? (Heiko) => go for it * Add "Source Sans Pro" to fallback font list for "Aptos" + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162872 + Source Sans Pro not bundled anymore, bug 136604, Metrics are nowhere near equivalent (Stuart) + bundling not needed (Regina) + decent similarity (Eyal, Cor, Regina) + not a good alternative yet we need some fallback (Rafael) => let's do it until we have a better alternative * UI : allow Alt + left / right to change width of panes as Navigator and Styles and formatting + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62954 + rather drop hard-coded resizing of splitter, see bug 146906 (Heiko) + not aware of any place where alt+arrow change the splitter; and alt+left/right and top/down changes cell size in Calc (although not when the Stylist/Navigator is in focus) (Heiko) + key sequence interaction would be nice; maybe as extension (Sahil) + no use case, maybe accessibility? (Heiko) => pass over to a11y * UI Field "Copy sort results to" in dialog Sort, tab options, missing button/does not allow shrinking + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113247 + Range dropdown not labelled (Eyal) + whether range or address, the target is filled with the source - changing this is not beneficial (Heiko) + going with a true range rather than a plain address opens Pandora's box (Rafael) + needs to be converted to a ref dialog; shrink button can be limited to single cells (Rafael) + keep range? some users might use it (Rafael, Heiko) + add label "Start cell: [ ] from: " + if too large, just "At" would be good (Heiko) + or without labels or in two lines (Rafael) => do it -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Sep-19 (THU)
Hi Heiko, *, Heiko Tietze wrote on 10/09/2024 16:07: on: Thursday, September/19, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Not available this afternoon - sorry. Commented on some of the reports. Have a good meeting, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member of The Document Foundation - director www.nouenoff.nl - initiator www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Sep-25 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, September/25, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Want access from borders toolbar menubutton to Format > Cells... Borders pane + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162967 * Need way to avoid selecting fonts which don't cover the relevant language Unicode range + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151122 + comment 32: add a filter to the special character dialog * Reworked localized Impress templates look ugly in RU + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162878 * New layouts for LO Impress + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93087 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, September/19. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00110.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Sep-11
Present: Sahil, Rafael, Heiko Comments: Stuart, Steve, Ady, Kenneth Tickets/Topics * The "Check for updates" dialog should provide links to release candidate wiki pages + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149400 + Wiki format is sufficient (Stuart) + No problem with a link to the point release in the updater (Rafael) + Not much beneficial since minor updates are (usually) just bug fixes (Rafael) + unclear why someone wants to learn about release candidates (Sahil) => keep with minor importance and add a link to the major and the minor release at the update info * Comment indicator size and color aesthetics and customization + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162660 + proposals in c16 + no need to fix, other app do the same (Rafael) + depending on the background? probably not; and makes the UI busy (Rafael) + if many users complain about the border we may add an advanced option (Sahil) + border was white in the past + using an icon could be a solution (Sahil) + but blocks changing the color, has issues with zooming, and RTL/LTR (Heiko) => resolve WF; we have no solution that makes everyone happy * make active cell highlight selection grid line a bright grey instead of white in dark mode or not use it at all? + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162759 + competitors also show a white inline rectangle (Rafael) + necessary to keep the focus rectangle visible even on a cell background close to the highlight/accent color (Ady) + unlikely use case (Steve) + a) use document background (not sure to provide good contrast; and looks ugly), b) merge the highlight color with the background and have less contrast, c) go with white (guarantees to be visible together with the focus color) + no user ever complained on other office suites about the color (Rafael) => WF * UI missing for nesting character styles + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311 + ability to nest CS is extremely important (Kenneth) + request is to apply more than one CS, eg. Emphasis+Strong Emphasis (Eyal) (and consequently to highlight both in the Stylist) + it is possible to inherit CS and Strong Emphasis can be moved under Emphasis which applies attributes from both styles; this nesting can also be done per Inherit From attribute (Heiko) + Style Inspector does not properly read the nested CS attributes + stacking is what Eyal suggests while nesting implies a hierarchy (Sahil) + similar discussion for PS where one style is wished to be available under different parents (Heiko) + we should not make the styles handling more complicated (Rafael) => comment and keep ticket for more wisdom -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Sep-19 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, September/19, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Sidebar panel character deck/tab doesn't allow switching / indicate language groups + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153991 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153992 * Add "Source Sans Pro" to fallback font list for "Aptos" + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162872 * UI : allow Alt + left / right to change width of panes as Navigator and Styles and formatting + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62954 * UI Field "Copy sort results to" in dialog Sort, tab options, missing button/does not allow shrinking + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113247 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Sep/11. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00108.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Sep-05
Present: Heiko Comments: Dieter, Regina, Cor, Eyal, Mathias, Ady, Ilmari Tickets/Topics * When a cell is protected and the language is changed for all text the language of that cell is changed too + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162028 + "Do you want to change language also for protected cells? (Yes / No)" (Dieter) + could be a convenience feature too (Heiko) => keep as bug with low priority * Add simple user name change to toolbar + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99698 + OO has a macro-tool (Regina); not working anymore (Cor) + reasonable request (Eyal) + use case to classify changes can be done per comment; in order to review/change a document using a pseudonym a second batch of user info is needed (Mathias) + still not convinced of identity change (Heiko) + if this is to be implemented it either could be done with a simple input field to change the name or multiple sets of user data and the UI to switch from one to another probably plus means to take over comments or TC (Heiko) => comment * Inserting new comment in Calc disables the "show all comments" setting + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161972 + View > Comments is applying an action rather to toggle a status; not convinced that changing the current behavior is beneficial (Ady) + agree with Ady (Heiko) => resolve NAB * Option to embed audio files tied to objects with right-click interaction + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118144 + Bug 81879 - Play sound should accept relative paths (Ilmari) + PowerPoint uses the element for media and does embed (Regina) + Insert > Audio or Video embed the media file but access via Interaction > Play Audio does not provide access to this object; "browse" opens the file picker, which inserts without any option to embed the object; we should use the same dialog, have an option to hide embedded media, and make it available for the play audio interaction => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Sep-11 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, September/11, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * The "Check for updates" dialog should provide links to release candidate wiki pages + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149400 * Comment indicator size and color aesthetics and customization + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162660 * make active cell highlight selection grid line a bright grey instead of white in dark mode or not use it at all? + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162759 * UI missing for nesting character styles + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, September/05 (!). The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00105.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Aug-28
Present: Sahil, John, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Regina, Jim, Ady, Robert Tickets/Topics * Feature Request: Ability to navigate using document page number if page 1 starts later in document + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147345 + special character before the number to go to a "logical" number (Regina) + use the title page feature and add a checkbox "Virtual page" (Jim) + rather label it "[ ] Include title pages" (Heiko) + don't go-to but search-for (Heiko) + page number can become more complex (Eyal) + PN can have an offset at any place, for example (Heiko) + relative/absolute sounds good (John) + could be solved per extension (Sahil) + though a fundamental feature and rather worth a core function (John) + take the "Virtual page" idea, make it a radio button "(o) Absolute page" and "( ) Relative page number", show next/prev interaction for the latter and go through the document to any page with the respective number => do it * Draw - no useful scaling factors for English units + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162501 + 1,2,10,12,16,100 (Heiko) + pwr(2), pwr(10), imperial, sqrt(2)... (Eyal) + locale dependent (Eyal) + sounds like over-engineering (OP) + stay away from imperial units (Sahil) + make it locale dependent (John) + quick solution would be 1,2,5,10,12,24,48,50,100 + but more flexible input with arbitrary values would be desirable (Eyal) => quick solution first, advanced later * PIVOTTABLE: Warning does not show range when overwriting destination range contents + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162417 + prevent growth of a pivot table by adding a "locked" attribute (OP) + why not just copy/paste the PT then (Ady) + when the PT is filtered new data items should be added as hidden (Ady) + same concept in case of autofilter but adding new data should show it in fact Excel and LibreOffice do show it but add the new value as disabled item to the AF + some users may expect the opposite, current behavior (Eyal) + add a compatibility option (Heiko) + use data field options (Heiko) + no proper solution (OP) + expanding into the next PT is a source of errors and should be totally blocked (Eyal, John, Heiko) => add option "[x] Enable new items in autofilter", defaulting to on, at the autofilter widget => consider to block PT expanding into other data (and make it possible per advanced option) * Improve UX for SQL dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140298 a) don’t make it a modal dialog b) save the list of previous commands at least for the entire session + save the commands in the Base file and allow to delete (Robert) c) for select statements, display the number of rows returned + fully agree to a) and b), with some privacy concerns to b1) (Heiko) + status may return the total number of rows, ie. c) + could be a nice sidebar (Sahil) + Base has no sidebar yet + mysql shows the number of rows (Eyal) + other tools return results in a way more convenient way (John) + https://global.discourse-cdn.com/quest/original/2X/c/ce7f3552d4db3d738f17105ad411338b84608553.png + https://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/images/chap3_9780134131856/elementLinks/03fig01_alt.jpg => remember the dialog per session and handle the persistent in the document another ticket => make the dialog amodal and do show the number of rows => fix colors on dark themes -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Aug-28 (WED)
Hi Heiko, Different obligations tonight; can't join; sorry. Commented on one bug; no strong ideas on the others (either). Enjoy ;) Cheers, Cor Heiko Tietze wrote on 20/08/2024 16:21: Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, August/28, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Feature Request: Ability to navigate using document page number if page 1 starts later in document + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147345 * Draw - no useful scaling factors for English units + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162501 * PIVOTTABLE: Warning does not show range when overwriting destination range contents + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162417 * Improve UX for SQL dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140298 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, August/22. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00100.html Cheers, Heiko -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member of The Document Foundation - director www.nouenoff.nl - initiator www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Aug-22
On 22/08/2024 22:11, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: Sahil, Rafael, Heiko Comments: Eyal, Tickets/Topics * Add deck with choice of slide layouts to the sidebar + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162420 For some historical context, let's remember the sidebar without the decks from 10 years ago... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B1TjAfRwQ4&pp=ygUZc2xpZGUgbGF5b3V0cyBsaWJyZW9mZmljZQ%3D%3D + always show master/layout options (Eyal) This mis-quotes me. + access together with master slides or remove from sidebar (Heiko) Re second option, of removing from sidebar: Then where is the user supposed to see the slide layouts? The sidebar is absolutely the right place for it. (By the way, if one uses the tabbed UI, there seems to be a dialog-button which does show you various slide layouts; but not with the menus.) + layout is not part of the master (though requested) (Regina) Yes, but that argument was made in favor of placing layouts on a different deck. IIANM. + no objection to layout with master but still need to have it at slide properties (Cor) + Layouts are not that much useful as they are not intelligent; 1. Layouts are quite useful, and people use them as much, and probably much more, than masters. 2. What are "intelligent layouts"? Not minuted... 3. Don't see any open bug regarding the removal or rework of layouts into something else. So, I don't believe an argument regarding how layouts could perhaps be improved or made more intelligent weighs against making them accessible on a separate deck. > precious space would be wasted (Rafael) What precious space would be wasted? On the contrary, we currently have empty space for sidebar decks, which we could use. That is, we are currently wasting space. > + proposal makes sense; pane could be collapsed to save space (Sahil)> + character, list, paragraph still visible when in slide context? (Heiko) + why show it if not applicable? (Sahil) + so what would be different from the current situation (Heiko) + should all the slide attributes be available too? + makes not too much sense since it's not a per-slide option (Sahil) + totally against bloating the sidebar (Heiko) + MSO allows to change the layout via context menu but also only if not in any other context than the slide Not sure what this discussion was about, but it's certainly not about my suggestion. > => WF You have not presented even a shred of an argument as to why it makes sense to have a sidebar deck for inter-slide transitions (without having selected multiple slides) - but not for slide layouts. (And of course, I did pose that challenge for whoever opposes confirming the request.) Quite annoying. > * Ability to assign comments / tracked changes to a different author> + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162424 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162423 + rather avoid changes to or at least clearly indicate authorship (Heiko) Clearly indicating the authorship - as the document editor wants it to be indicated - is exactly what this feature request facilitates. + reasonable use cases such as name not set (Eyal) + documents with comments are not legal binding (Rafael) + protecting TC and comments outweighs flexibility and convenience (Heiko, Rafael, Sahil) "Protecting comments" and changing author information don't contradict. You can make it more difficult to change comments; but once the user has clearly indicated they want to change comments, they should be able to change authorship as well as contents. + makes sense as extension and should list all comment authors allowing to take over one of those => do per extension To say that something "makes sense as an extension" one needs to establish (among other things) that: 1. use-cases are niche enough to not merit the app catering to them 2. functionality not required for comprehensive ability of editing ODT files 3. Possibility of implementation via extension In our case, point (3.) is probably valid, but points (1.) and (2.) do not. > * Ability to make multiple adjacent row or column cell merges> + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162333 + use case A1 = first name, B1 = second name => merge to combine (Eyal) + simply do =A1 & " " & B1 (Heiko) => WF Agreed (for a change...) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Aug-22
Present: Sahil, Rafael, Heiko Comments: Eyal, Tickets/Topics * Add deck with choice of slide layouts to the sidebar + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162420 + always show master/layout options (Eyal) + access together with master slides or remove from sidebar (Heiko) + layout is not part of the master (though requested) (Regina) + selection of the master-slides in the slide properties pane (Regina) + no objection to layout with master but still need to have it at slide properties (Cor) + Layouts are not that much useful as they are not intelligent; precious space would be wasted (Rafael) + proposal makes sense; pane could be collapsed to save space (Sahil) + character, list, paragraph still visible when in slide context? (Heiko) + why show it if not applicable? (Sahil) + so what would be different from the current situation (Heiko) + should all the slide attributes be available too? + makes not too much sense since it's not a per-slide option (Sahil) + totally against bloating the sidebar (Heiko) + MSO allows to change the layout via context menu but also only if not in any other context than the slide => WF * Ability to assign comments / tracked changes to a different author + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162424 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162423 + rather avoid changes to or at least clearly indicate authorship (Heiko) + reasonable use cases such as name not set (Eyal) + documents with comments are not legal binding (Rafael) + protecting TC and comments outweighs flexibility and convenience (Heiko, Rafael, Sahil) + makes sense as extension and should list all comment authors allowing to take over one of those => do per extension * Ability to make multiple adjacent row or column cell merges + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162333 + use case A1 = first name, B1 = second name => merge to combine (Eyal) + simply do =A1 & " " & B1 (Heiko) => WF * Simplify Address Book Data Source Wizard + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=133845 + not much benefit when all (variable number) intermediate steps become added (Heiko) + intention was to reuse existing dialogs (Rafael) + we should rather aim for a one-click integration and bring back TB integration, for example (Heiko) + if possible, this should be a standalone tool (Sahil) => WF -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Aug-28 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, August/28, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Feature Request: Ability to navigate using document page number if page 1 starts later in document + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147345 * Draw - no useful scaling factors for English units + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162501 * PIVOTTABLE: Warning does not show range when overwriting destination range contents + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162417 * Improve UX for SQL dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140298 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, August/22. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00100.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2024-Aug-14
Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Olivier, Miguel, Stuart, Rafael, Regina, Per, Ady Tickets/Topics * Enable 'Extended Tips' on Tools -> Options -> General by default + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162296 + agree in principle, suggest to add an entry in the Help menu to toggle extended tips more easily (Olivier) + could be some toggle menu item (Per) + KDE still has issues with long extended tips and looks ugly (Olivier) + good idea (Miguel, Stuart, Rafael) + bad idea (Regina) + yellow rectangles whatever you do + ordinary tooltips also have no proper hidedelay/pause/? (Heiko) + how about accelerator to add the extended tip (Sahil) + wouldn't be a benefit for newbies (Heiko) => do it * Possibility to Find and Replace on Validity Formulas + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160506 + functionality would not be clear (Ady) + preferably as another color for View > Value Highlighting (Heiko) + clashes with existing highlight, ie. blue numbers become red validations + niche request (Sahil) + indication could also be on the cell like for comments (Heiko) + F&R would require to turn validation into some kind of named object like styles and to replace one by another, as known from paragraph styles in Writer (Heiko) + OP has not responded suggest to set NEEDINFO flag (Eyal) => comment and set flag * Master document for Impress + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=142904 + links could be a solution (Regina) + mockup for Presentation Manager (PM) (Heiko) + wonder if OP really wants a Master Document and suggest to resolve this ticket and open another with a PM (Eyal) + could be done as extension or in a gsoc project (Eyal) + also possible as standalone tool and perhaps agnostic of any format (Sahil) => share the idea, seek for input -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Aug-22 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, August/22, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Add deck with choice of slide layouts to the sidebar + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162420 * Ability to assign comments / tracked changes to a different author + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162424 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162423 * Ability to make multiple adjacent row or column cell merges + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162333 * Simplify Address Book Data Source Wizard + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=133845 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Aug/14. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00094.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Aug-08
Hello Patrick :-) Since you replied rather passionately - let me add a few more words. I love LibreOffice! It's a great endeavor and massively useful suite of applications, and it's getting better (almost) every day. I try to convince more people to use it all the time, and wear the T-shirts a lot to attract more attention to it. And it is our wonderful developers, designers, and other content contributors - like yourself and like Heiko - who make this happen. I also think LibreOffice has all sorts of problems, failures and deficiencies. Or to put it more bluntly, if you will: LibreOffice "sucks" in some ways. That's also true for the processes of work on the project, and for our foundation as well: Some aspects of our collective conduct "suck" [1]. In fact, in 2010, the people around the project thought that things sucked so bad that they needed to fork it - and that's how LibreOffice was born from OpenOffice. Do you know, Patrick, why I joined the TDF? I actually was reluctant to do so, because I expected I would get into arguments because of my tendency to hold strong opinions and try to argue for them (stubbornly, one might say). So why get into this headache in the first place? In a project which isn't even one of those I contribute code to? Well, one reason is that Heiko strongly encouraged me to do it. I can't speak for him of course, but I'm sure he will tell you that design meetings are much more lively and interesting, and somewhat more likely to have useful insights, with participants who have strong intuitions about aspects of UI and UX; and try to play "devil's advocate" for less-eloquent bug posters (rather than just pushing my own suggestions). And you should also note the number of people present in design meetings: It's someone just two (or two-plus-me); and not all participants opine on any given issue. So, I guess he thought the benefits outweigh the detriments, and that other voices with other, let's say, "organizational personalities" are worth bringing in. I hope he still thinks so :-) Another reason has to do with my being from the RTL languages community [2]. There are very few of us RTL-writers using LO, relative to our numbers in the world! More importantly, there are extremely few active users who do RTL-related QA work. And that means, that to express our collective needs and grievances (to the extent that I can presume to do so) - it behooves us to be insistent, rather than wait for a bunch of other people to eventually, someday, make the same complaint and carry the argument. So expect insistence and push-back on RTL-related issues from me, in the future as well, and - in good faith. I also hope I'm offering an RTL-language-minded perspective as a trustee as well. Eyal PS - If you think I complain about everything than you have no idea of how many more things there are to complain about :-P [1] : And I don't mean the auditors' findings last year; although that's one criterion we could use. [2] : Admittedly, a particularly over-privileged part of that community. What's happening in Gaza is a terrible crime against all of humanity, and I'm trying to challenge it in the public sphere by helping to organize demonstrations, that get repeatedly suppressed by the Israeli police. On 09/08/2024 5:19, Patrick Luby wrote: Hi Eyal, I was wondering when you would turn your focus to the developer list. I have been watching your posts on the board discussion mailing list and, frankly, I still have no idea what you do except complain about literally everything. Look man, I’ve been working with the LibreOffice (and its predecessor OpenOffice) for 20+ years and I’ve seen a parade of pushy people like you swoop in, tell us we all suck, and then demand we all conform to your wishes. To quote Michael Meeks, you are good at identifying problems but very poor at resolving any of them. There are a thousand or more things I’d like to improve. But here’s the deal: TDF doesn’t actually have any developers. Heiko doesn’t have an army of developers waiting for your insight. He relies on volunteers like me to figure out what can change without pissing users off. Problem is that volunteers like me don’t really like dealing wth overbearing people like you. I admire Heiko’s patience and professionalism. He’s in a difficult spot with zero funding. I get it, shouting and belittling TDF staff is your way of trying t get people to do what you want. But, like most users, you provide absolutely nothing to hire the staff that you really want. I for one have decided that I just don’t like you and will ensure that I never work on your wants in the future. Patrick On Aug 8, 2024, at 5:42 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Come on, Heiko and Cor! Another example of not giving proper attention to the discussion on the bug page. On 08/08/2024 16:36, Heiko Tietze wrote: * "Text direction" in page style dialog, with both Asian and RTL-CTL, is inconsistent and confusing you left out
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Aug-08
Hi Eyal, I was wondering when you would turn your focus to the developer list. I have been watching your posts on the board discussion mailing list and, frankly, I still have no idea what you do except complain about literally everything. Look man, I’ve been working with the LibreOffice (and its predecessor OpenOffice) for 20+ years and I’ve seen a parade of pushy people like you swoop in, tell us we all suck, and then demand we all conform to your wishes. To quote Michael Meeks, you are good at identifying problems but very poor at resolving any of them. There are a thousand or more things I’d like to improve. But here’s the deal: TDF doesn’t actually have any developers. Heiko doesn’t have an army of developers waiting for your insight. He relies on volunteers like me to figure out what can change without pissing users off. Problem is that volunteers like me don’t really like dealing wth overbearing people like you. I admire Heiko’s patience and professionalism. He’s in a difficult spot with zero funding. I get it, shouting and belittling TDF staff is your way of trying t get people to do what you want. But, like most users, you provide absolutely nothing to hire the staff that you really want. I for one have decided that I just don’t like you and will ensure that I never work on your wants in the future. Patrick > On Aug 8, 2024, at 5:42 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > > Come on, Heiko and Cor! Another example of not giving proper attention > to the discussion on the bug page. > > On 08/08/2024 16:36, Heiko Tietze wrote: >> * "Text direction" in page style dialog, with both Asian and RTL-CTL, >> is inconsistent and confusing > > you left out a key part of the title: "doesn't always set the actual > direction". > >> + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162200 >> + agree with Regina on keep status but write better help (Cor) >> => WF >> * Table > Properties > Text Flow > Text Orientation is misphrased and >> confusing >>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162201 >>+ better "writing mode" (Regina) >> => follow the expert's advice > > First, let us return to a point that I thought was already settled: > Changes to help/documentation text are not a solution for problems with > the LibreOffice UI. If a control or a label is confusing or > inconsistent, that needs to be improved in the app itself, as best we > can; and whatever the UI has - the documentation is for elaboration in > greater detail, with more context and examples. > > Second, we're past confusion or poor wording: We have "Text Direction" > control, which, for vertical writing modes - does not set the text > direction (!) and - there isn't another control in the dialog which sets > it, either. (For horizontal writing modes, the control does set the > direction.) > > Finally - there are concrete suggestions for some improvements, and > they are not even all dependent on each other. The design meeting > minutes do not list any argument regarding why any of them are a bad > idea (and Regina's comments do not argue against these suggestions either). > > Let me rephrase the suggested changes briefly, here: > > * Split off writing mode control from direction control, using > consistent and clearly-phrased labels. > > * Improve the preview graph to illustrate how lines look and progress. > > > Eyal > > > >> >> * STYLES pane -- duplicate style (an additional option beside the >> existing >>new style from selection >>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162209 >>+ WF'ed before on bug 152189 >>+ duplication would be like new but on the same level in the hierarchy, >> support the request (Cor) >>=> do it >> >> * Terrible usability of AutoText dialog when creating new AutoText >>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52607 >>+ Source > Clipboard (added newly) should not be done as the AT >> needs to be verified in the context (Cor) >>+ preview window: zoom slider for preview (Gerry) >> + disagree; the actual issue should be fixed (Heiko) >>+ AutoText dialog should be amodal >> + agreed (Cor, Heiko) >>+ does it make sense to modify the category while creating a new AT >> (Cor) >> + we should carefully avoid mixing individual attributes from one AT >>with information on the list of ATs such as categories and path; >>therefore these are split out of the AT dialog/s (Heiko) >>+ is "Create AutoText out of selection" (directly) possible? (Gerry) >> + requires a category and unless we just add all new content to >>some "Standard" it needs this selection first (Heiko) >>=> wait for volunteers to implement >> -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Aug-08
On 2024-08-08 21:42, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: First, let us return to a point that I thought was already settled: Changes to help/documentation text are not a solution for problems with the LibreOffice UI. If a control or a label is confusing or inconsistent, that needs to be improved in the app itself, as best we can; and whatever the UI has - the documentation is for elaboration in greater detail, with more context and examples. Whilst good documentation is not a solution, it can describe workarounds for when things that the naive user does not expect to happen, do occur. For various reasons, the unexpected are more likely to be seen in CJKV, than other writing systems, but they do pop up elsewhere, with even more frustration in trying to figure out why things are not as expected. Let me rephrase the suggested changes briefly, here: * Split off writing mode control from direction control, using consistent and clearly-phrased labels. +1 Question: will rotation of glyphs be part of the writing mode control, or direction control, or independent of both? For some writing systems, glyph rotation has an impact on how to construct a document. For example, Boustrophedon Egyptian Hieroglyphics. jonathon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Aug-08
Come on, Heiko and Cor! Another example of not giving proper attention to the discussion on the bug page. On 08/08/2024 16:36, Heiko Tietze wrote: * "Text direction" in page style dialog, with both Asian and RTL-CTL, is inconsistent and confusing you left out a key part of the title: "doesn't always set the actual direction". + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162200 + agree with Regina on keep status but write better help (Cor) => WF * Table > Properties > Text Flow > Text Orientation is misphrased and confusing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162201 + better "writing mode" (Regina) => follow the expert's advice First, let us return to a point that I thought was already settled: Changes to help/documentation text are not a solution for problems with the LibreOffice UI. If a control or a label is confusing or inconsistent, that needs to be improved in the app itself, as best we can; and whatever the UI has - the documentation is for elaboration in greater detail, with more context and examples. Second, we're past confusion or poor wording: We have "Text Direction" control, which, for vertical writing modes - does not set the text direction (!) and - there isn't another control in the dialog which sets it, either. (For horizontal writing modes, the control does set the direction.) Finally - there are concrete suggestions for some improvements, and they are not even all dependent on each other. The design meeting minutes do not list any argument regarding why any of them are a bad idea (and Regina's comments do not argue against these suggestions either). Let me rephrase the suggested changes briefly, here: * Split off writing mode control from direction control, using consistent and clearly-phrased labels. * Improve the preview graph to illustrate how lines look and progress. Eyal * STYLES pane -- duplicate style (an additional option beside the existing new style from selection + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162209 + WF'ed before on bug 152189 + duplication would be like new but on the same level in the hierarchy, support the request (Cor) => do it * Terrible usability of AutoText dialog when creating new AutoText + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52607 + Source > Clipboard (added newly) should not be done as the AT needs to be verified in the context (Cor) + preview window: zoom slider for preview (Gerry) + disagree; the actual issue should be fixed (Heiko) + AutoText dialog should be amodal + agreed (Cor, Heiko) + does it make sense to modify the category while creating a new AT (Cor) + we should carefully avoid mixing individual attributes from one AT with information on the list of ATs such as categories and path; therefore these are split out of the AT dialog/s (Heiko) + is "Create AutoText out of selection" (directly) possible? (Gerry) + requires a category and unless we just add all new content to some "Standard" it needs this selection first (Heiko) => wait for volunteers to implement -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Aug-08
Present: Cor, Sahil, Heiko Comments: Regina, Gerry Tickets/Topics * "Text direction" in page style dialog, with both Asian and RTL-CTL, is inconsistent and confusing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162200 + agree with Regina on keep status but write better help (Cor) => WF * Table > Properties > Text Flow > Text Orientation is misphrased and confusing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162201 + better "writing mode" (Regina) => follow the expert's advice * STYLES pane -- duplicate style (an additional option beside the existing new style from selection + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162209 + WF'ed before on bug 152189 + duplication would be like new but on the same level in the hierarchy, support the request (Cor) => do it * Terrible usability of AutoText dialog when creating new AutoText + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52607 + Source > Clipboard (added newly) should not be done as the AT needs to be verified in the context (Cor) + preview window: zoom slider for preview (Gerry) + disagree; the actual issue should be fixed (Heiko) + AutoText dialog should be amodal + agreed (Cor, Heiko) + does it make sense to modify the category while creating a new AT (Cor) + we should carefully avoid mixing individual attributes from one AT with information on the list of ATs such as categories and path; therefore these are split out of the AT dialog/s (Heiko) + is "Create AutoText out of selection" (directly) possible? (Gerry) + requires a category and unless we just add all new content to some "Standard" it needs this selection first (Heiko) => wait for volunteers to implement -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31
Hi Paul It would be much appreciated if you could report the issue on our bug tracker, so we can hope to figure the issue out and eventually fix it: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/ These here lists are not for reporting bugs. Please include a sample document, and details about your LO version (copied from Help > About LibreOffice) and the View options you use (e.g., do you use dark mode?). Thank you. On 2 August 2024 12:53:20 am AEST, paul hofseth wrote: >sirs, > >I occasionally look at your dialogues and at times misguidedly complain about >program stability rather than lack of "bells and whistles" . > >I do realize that your task is dealing with the user interface and not with >the data mechanics, but do hope that you have communication lines that concern >program usefulness-. > >This time I am sorely tempted to comment on the disability of reading >monopolistic texts in docX format even if it lies outside your remit. > >When working with our new book i have discovered a msjor annoyance when my >co-authors use microsoft or apple. Black text on black background is not >enlightening in any sense of the word. > >p. > >Den 01-08-2024 16:33, skrev Csongor Halmai: >> Hi Heiko, >> >> you wrote this: >> >> + necessary if the app DPI differs from the screen DPI (Csongor) >> >> but I didn't say this. >> >> I meant in my comment that this feature would be useful when you want to see >> more information than the resolution of your screen (and your eyes) allows. >> You could magnify the region of interest (ROI) while you still can see the >> big picture as well. >> >> I created a mimicking screenshot in GIMP how I think it should look: >> https://i.ibb.co/WW0WsxC/magnifier-sample.png >> >> Disclaimer: for the screenshot, I used the Spherize filter of GIMP, which is >> geometrically not identical to a magnifier lens but shows well enough what I >> would like to see. >> >> In order to not hide anything from the underlying screen, it is essential >> that the center of the circle shows things larger than their original size >> but at the same time, around the edge, things look smaller. This way, the >> magnifier doesn't cover anything, just shows some distortion around the >> edges. >> >> A realistic lens effect can be seen here: https://youtu.be/XtCW-axRJV8?t=271 >> >> I think this would be such a useful feature that it should be supported at >> operating system level. >> >> Csongor >> >> >> >> >> On 1/08/2024 04:56, Heiko Tietze wrote: >>> Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko >>> Comments: Mike, Justin, Stephane, Stuart, Cor >>> >>> Tickets/Topics >>> >>> (Suggested bump-up (Eyal): >>> * Cell selecting fat border looks ugly especially if you selected some >>> cell range, it also can block content in other cells >>> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709 >>> + Rafael: Made commits to improve the cosmetic situation, consider >>> the bug fixed. >>> + Rafael: This was done to resolve 143733, which requested the >>> rectangle not cover the active cell >>> + Heiko: Suggest accepting the current situation for now >>> + Eyal: Serious degradation of UX - text in surrounding cells >>> partially hidden, can make one value appear as another due >>> to hiding. >>> + Eyal: Suggest back-out of changes to before 143733, for now, and >>> reconsideration. Must fix this for 24.8 release. >>> + Eyal, Mihai, Rafael, Roman, flm2: Excel active cell rectangle looks >>> nice >>> => please discuss at Bugzilla or the mailinglists (Heiko) >>> ) >>> >>> * No option to automatically indent multiline list entries to align >>> with numbering followed by space >>> + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156071 >>> + line up *subsequent lines* of each list entry, see c12 >>> + no good example for the necessity (Mike, Cor, Heiko) >>> + mandatory to have this as cross-platform feature (Justin, Cor) >>> + A tab is, in the general sense, an inherently flawed solution, >>> because once your number exceeds the tab width - you'll overflow >>> and the alignment will be messed up (Eyal) >>> + Request is reasonable (Eyal): >>> + Follows a different aesthetic principle: Fixed amount of space >>> between number and paragraph content v-start rather than uniform >>> content v-start across all paragraphs >>> + Should be implemented via a paragraph feature to move all lines >>> further in to respect the maximum constraints on each individual >>> line (e.g. numbering, wrapping around frames etc.), ensuring >>> that the paragraph's v-start is uniform across all lines, without >>> having to set it explicitly using indentation and/or tabs. >>> + Should be usable even without numbering being active (an aspect >>> of a paragraph's style) >>> + requires probably also to start a list from any number (Heiko) >>> + M
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31
I do apologize for chiming in at the inappropriate spot, it is only ss a long time profesional user of Libre office and its predecessors that I meddled in processes i have insufficient understanding of. As to the question of what i intented with my references to monopolistic organizations I did think of the loss of odf to docx in the competition for open standard canonization. In the future I will refarin from bothering you with my suggestions- p Den 01-08-2024 18:45, skrev John Kaufmann: Paul, I don't /think/ your post relates to either the comment from Csongor or to the LibO Design minutes to which Csongor was responding, so I hope you will forgive this attempt to separate it from the "Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31", in the interest of both solving your problem and maintaining clarity with respect to the minutes. [If I have misjudged that premise, please correct me.] I would suggest that this might be best addressed to the LibreOffice Users list (a good list for sharing common problems and solutions), with a Subject line something like: "DOCX files rendered as black text on black background". [However, I have not added that list to this distribution, as it seemed too much presumption on my part; that is your call. I have also not modified the Subject line, though I think it is appropriate to do so.] To be clear: Are you saying that, when you import a DOCX file, the text is rendered as black on a black background? (If so, let's begin by affirming that I never see that, so we can be pretty sure that this is not a LibreOffice design issue.) If that is not the issue, please clarify. Also, does the phrase "monopolistic texts" refer to proprietary (MS or Apple) formats? Again, if not, please clarify. Kind regards, John On 2024-08-01 10:53, paul hofseth wrote: sirs, I occasionally look at your dialogues and at times misguidedly complain about program stability rather than lack of "bells and whistles" . I do realize that your task is dealing with the user interface and not with the data mechanics, but do hope that you have communication lines that concern program usefulness-. This time I am sorely tempted to comment on the disability of reading monopolistic texts in docX format even if it lies outside your remit. When working with our new book i have discovered a msjor annoyance when my co-authors use microsoft or apple. Black text on black background is not enlightening in any sense of the word. p. Den 01-08-2024 16:33, skrev Csongor Halmai: Hi Heiko, you wrote this: + necessary if the app DPI differs from the screen DPI (Csongor) but I didn't say this. I meant in my comment that this feature would be useful when you want to see more information than the resolution of your screen (and your eyes) allows. You could magnify the region of interest (ROI) while you still can see the big picture as well. I created a mimicking screenshot in GIMP how I think it should look: https://i.ibb.co/WW0WsxC/magnifier-sample.png Disclaimer: for the screenshot, I used the Spherize filter of GIMP, which is geometrically not identical to a magnifier lens but shows well enough what I would like to see. In order to not hide anything from the underlying screen, it is essential that the center of the circle shows things larger than their original size but at the same time, around the edge, things look smaller. This way, the magnifier doesn't cover anything, just shows some distortion around the edges. A realistic lens effect can be seen here: https://youtu.be/XtCW-axRJV8?t=271 I think this would be such a useful feature that it should be supported at operating system level. Csongor On 1/08/2024 04:56, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Mike, Justin, Stephane, Stuart, Cor Tickets/Topics (Suggested bump-up (Eyal): * Cell selecting fat border looks ugly especially if you selected some cell range, it also can block content in other cells https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709 + Rafael: Made commits to improve the cosmetic situation, consider the bug fixed. + Rafael: This was done to resolve 143733, which requested the rectangle not cover the active cell + Heiko: Suggest accepting the current situation for now + Eyal: Serious degradation of UX - text in surrounding cells partially hidden, can make one value appear as another due to hiding. + Eyal: Suggest back-out of changes to before 143733, for now, and reconsideration. Must fix this for 24.8 release. + Eyal, Mihai, Rafael, Roman, flm2: Excel active cell rectangle looks nice => please discuss at Bugzilla or the mailinglists (Heiko) ) * No option to automatically indent multiline list entries to align with numbering followed by space + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31
Paul, I don't /think/ your post relates to either the comment from Csongor or to the LibO Design minutes to which Csongor was responding, so I hope you will forgive this attempt to separate it from the "Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31", in the interest of both solving your problem and maintaining clarity with respect to the minutes. [If I have misjudged that premise, please correct me.] I would suggest that this might be best addressed to the LibreOffice Users list (a good list for sharing common problems and solutions), with a Subject line something like: "DOCX files rendered as black text on black background". [However, I have not added that list to this distribution, as it seemed too much presumption on my part; that is your call. I have also not modified the Subject line, though I think it is appropriate to do so.] To be clear: Are you saying that, when you import a DOCX file, the text is rendered as black on a black background? (If so, let's begin by affirming that I never see that, so we can be pretty sure that this is not a LibreOffice design issue.) If that is not the issue, please clarify. Also, does the phrase "monopolistic texts" refer to proprietary (MS or Apple) formats? Again, if not, please clarify. Kind regards, John On 2024-08-01 10:53, paul hofseth wrote: sirs, I occasionally look at your dialogues and at times misguidedly complain about program stability rather than lack of "bells and whistles" . I do realize that your task is dealing with the user interface and not with the data mechanics, but do hope that you have communication lines that concern program usefulness-. This time I am sorely tempted to comment on the disability of reading monopolistic texts in docX format even if it lies outside your remit. When working with our new book i have discovered a msjor annoyance when my co-authors use microsoft or apple. Black text on black background is not enlightening in any sense of the word. p. Den 01-08-2024 16:33, skrev Csongor Halmai: Hi Heiko, you wrote this: + necessary if the app DPI differs from the screen DPI (Csongor) but I didn't say this. I meant in my comment that this feature would be useful when you want to see more information than the resolution of your screen (and your eyes) allows. You could magnify the region of interest (ROI) while you still can see the big picture as well. I created a mimicking screenshot in GIMP how I think it should look: https://i.ibb.co/WW0WsxC/magnifier-sample.png Disclaimer: for the screenshot, I used the Spherize filter of GIMP, which is geometrically not identical to a magnifier lens but shows well enough what I would like to see. In order to not hide anything from the underlying screen, it is essential that the center of the circle shows things larger than their original size but at the same time, around the edge, things look smaller. This way, the magnifier doesn't cover anything, just shows some distortion around the edges. A realistic lens effect can be seen here: https://youtu.be/XtCW-axRJV8?t=271 I think this would be such a useful feature that it should be supported at operating system level. Csongor On 1/08/2024 04:56, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Mike, Justin, Stephane, Stuart, Cor Tickets/Topics (Suggested bump-up (Eyal): * Cell selecting fat border looks ugly especially if you selected some cell range, it also can block content in other cells https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709 + Rafael: Made commits to improve the cosmetic situation, consider the bug fixed. + Rafael: This was done to resolve 143733, which requested the rectangle not cover the active cell + Heiko: Suggest accepting the current situation for now + Eyal: Serious degradation of UX - text in surrounding cells partially hidden, can make one value appear as another due to hiding. + Eyal: Suggest back-out of changes to before 143733, for now, and reconsideration. Must fix this for 24.8 release. + Eyal, Mihai, Rafael, Roman, flm2: Excel active cell rectangle looks nice => please discuss at Bugzilla or the mailinglists (Heiko) ) * No option to automatically indent multiline list entries to align with numbering followed by space + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156071 + line up *subsequent lines* of each list entry, see c12 + no good example for the necessity (Mike, Cor, Heiko) + mandatory to have this as cross-platform feature (Justin, Cor) + A tab is, in the general sense, an inherently flawed solution, because once your number exceeds the tab width - you'll overflow and the alignment will be messed up (Eyal) + Request is reasonable (Eyal): + Follows a different aesthetic principle: Fixed amount of space between number and paragraph co
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31
sirs, I occasionally look at your dialogues and at times misguidedly complain about program stability rather than lack of "bells and whistles" . I do realize that your task is dealing with the user interface and not with the data mechanics, but do hope that you have communication lines that concern program usefulness-. This time I am sorely tempted to comment on the disability of reading monopolistic texts in docX format even if it lies outside your remit. When working with our new book i have discovered a msjor annoyance when my co-authors use microsoft or apple. Black text on black background is not enlightening in any sense of the word. p. Den 01-08-2024 16:33, skrev Csongor Halmai: Hi Heiko, you wrote this: + necessary if the app DPI differs from the screen DPI (Csongor) but I didn't say this. I meant in my comment that this feature would be useful when you want to see more information than the resolution of your screen (and your eyes) allows. You could magnify the region of interest (ROI) while you still can see the big picture as well. I created a mimicking screenshot in GIMP how I think it should look: https://i.ibb.co/WW0WsxC/magnifier-sample.png Disclaimer: for the screenshot, I used the Spherize filter of GIMP, which is geometrically not identical to a magnifier lens but shows well enough what I would like to see. In order to not hide anything from the underlying screen, it is essential that the center of the circle shows things larger than their original size but at the same time, around the edge, things look smaller. This way, the magnifier doesn't cover anything, just shows some distortion around the edges. A realistic lens effect can be seen here: https://youtu.be/XtCW-axRJV8?t=271 I think this would be such a useful feature that it should be supported at operating system level. Csongor On 1/08/2024 04:56, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Mike, Justin, Stephane, Stuart, Cor Tickets/Topics (Suggested bump-up (Eyal): * Cell selecting fat border looks ugly especially if you selected some cell range, it also can block content in other cells https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709 + Rafael: Made commits to improve the cosmetic situation, consider the bug fixed. + Rafael: This was done to resolve 143733, which requested the rectangle not cover the active cell + Heiko: Suggest accepting the current situation for now + Eyal: Serious degradation of UX - text in surrounding cells partially hidden, can make one value appear as another due to hiding. + Eyal: Suggest back-out of changes to before 143733, for now, and reconsideration. Must fix this for 24.8 release. + Eyal, Mihai, Rafael, Roman, flm2: Excel active cell rectangle looks nice => please discuss at Bugzilla or the mailinglists (Heiko) ) * No option to automatically indent multiline list entries to align with numbering followed by space + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156071 + line up *subsequent lines* of each list entry, see c12 + no good example for the necessity (Mike, Cor, Heiko) + mandatory to have this as cross-platform feature (Justin, Cor) + A tab is, in the general sense, an inherently flawed solution, because once your number exceeds the tab width - you'll overflow and the alignment will be messed up (Eyal) + Request is reasonable (Eyal): + Follows a different aesthetic principle: Fixed amount of space between number and paragraph content v-start rather than uniform content v-start across all paragraphs + Should be implemented via a paragraph feature to move all lines further in to respect the maximum constraints on each individual line (e.g. numbering, wrapping around frames etc.), ensuring that the paragraph's v-start is uniform across all lines, without having to set it explicitly using indentation and/or tabs. + Should be usable even without numbering being active (an aspect of a paragraph's style) + requires probably also to start a list from any number (Heiko) + MSO does exactly the same as we do (Heiko) => comment * Tab stop of list contents increases then decreases in default Roman numeral list, looking messy + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162133 + Microsoft Office forces right alignment for Roman numerals, often with horrible results (Justin) + right-alignment is not the right solution => WF (Stephane, Cor) => solution follows bug 156071 * PIVOTTABLE: Formating Pivot Tables + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51732 + double-click brings up the Data Field dialog currently, add a context menu (Stephane. Cor) + perhaps more obvious via push button? (Sahil) => provide a context menu for the functions * Magnifier Tool
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31
Hi Heiko, you wrote this: + necessary if the app DPI differs from the screen DPI (Csongor) but I didn't say this. I meant in my comment that this feature would be useful when you want to see more information than the resolution of your screen (and your eyes) allows. You could magnify the region of interest (ROI) while you still can see the big picture as well. I created a mimicking screenshot in GIMP how I think it should look: https://i.ibb.co/WW0WsxC/magnifier-sample.png Disclaimer: for the screenshot, I used the Spherize filter of GIMP, which is geometrically not identical to a magnifier lens but shows well enough what I would like to see. In order to not hide anything from the underlying screen, it is essential that the center of the circle shows things larger than their original size but at the same time, around the edge, things look smaller. This way, the magnifier doesn't cover anything, just shows some distortion around the edges. A realistic lens effect can be seen here: https://youtu.be/XtCW-axRJV8?t=271 I think this would be such a useful feature that it should be supported at operating system level. Csongor On 1/08/2024 04:56, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Mike, Justin, Stephane, Stuart, Cor Tickets/Topics (Suggested bump-up (Eyal): * Cell selecting fat border looks ugly especially if you selected some cell range, it also can block content in other cells https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709 + Rafael: Made commits to improve the cosmetic situation, consider the bug fixed. + Rafael: This was done to resolve 143733, which requested the rectangle not cover the active cell + Heiko: Suggest accepting the current situation for now + Eyal: Serious degradation of UX - text in surrounding cells partially hidden, can make one value appear as another due to hiding. + Eyal: Suggest back-out of changes to before 143733, for now, and reconsideration. Must fix this for 24.8 release. + Eyal, Mihai, Rafael, Roman, flm2: Excel active cell rectangle looks nice => please discuss at Bugzilla or the mailinglists (Heiko) ) * No option to automatically indent multiline list entries to align with numbering followed by space + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156071 + line up *subsequent lines* of each list entry, see c12 + no good example for the necessity (Mike, Cor, Heiko) + mandatory to have this as cross-platform feature (Justin, Cor) + A tab is, in the general sense, an inherently flawed solution, because once your number exceeds the tab width - you'll overflow and the alignment will be messed up (Eyal) + Request is reasonable (Eyal): + Follows a different aesthetic principle: Fixed amount of space between number and paragraph content v-start rather than uniform content v-start across all paragraphs + Should be implemented via a paragraph feature to move all lines further in to respect the maximum constraints on each individual line (e.g. numbering, wrapping around frames etc.), ensuring that the paragraph's v-start is uniform across all lines, without having to set it explicitly using indentation and/or tabs. + Should be usable even without numbering being active (an aspect of a paragraph's style) + requires probably also to start a list from any number (Heiko) + MSO does exactly the same as we do (Heiko) => comment * Tab stop of list contents increases then decreases in default Roman numeral list, looking messy + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162133 + Microsoft Office forces right alignment for Roman numerals, often with horrible results (Justin) + right-alignment is not the right solution => WF (Stephane, Cor) => solution follows bug 156071 * PIVOTTABLE: Formating Pivot Tables + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51732 + double-click brings up the Data Field dialog currently, add a context menu (Stephane. Cor) + perhaps more obvious via push button? (Sahil) => provide a context menu for the functions * Magnifier Tool for a quick overview and spot zoom into a document in Multiple-page view + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162101 + magnifier is always just a click away, eg. Win + +/- on KDE + bug it does not render again with a higher resolution (Heiko) + "magnifier" would be an excellent feature *in general* (Stuart, Cor) + necessary if the app DPI differs from the screen DPI (Csongor) + duplicates / relates to bug 101646 "UI option "Scaling" was removed" with a lot duplicates itself + weird relation to multi-page view; suggest to do with low priority (Eyal) => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-
Re: [libreoffice-design] Term for "structured references"
On 01.08.24 12:17 PM, Eike Rathke wrote: I'd still go with Structured References though Me too Or maybe Table References... Easy to misunderstand, but GSheet calls the feature like this: https://support.google.com/docs/thread/274482551/google-sheets-new-feature-new-ways-to-quickly-format-and-organize-data-with-tables?hl=en Other names like "Named References" or "Heading References" are probably not better. -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Architect and UI-Designer Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Term for "structured references"
Hi Regina Draft Wiki Page created as work in progress https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/CalcTableRef Cheers Olivier On 7/31/24 10:57, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi all, Microsoft has for its "Excel table" a feature "structured references". https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/using-structured-references- with-excel-tables-f5ed2452-2337-4f71-bed3-c8ae6d2b276e When opening an xlsx-file, the "Excel table" is converted into a "Database range", see section "Data Ranges" in the Help. https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/scalc/guide/ database_define.html LibreOffice can use the "structured references" and they are retained if saving to xlsx-Format. They are converted to ordinary range addresses, when saving to ODF. Feature request for ODF is in bug 162088. But there exist no help on this feature, see bug 162275. I want to start a Wiki-page for it. For that I need a term for this kind of addressing parts of a database range. Suggestions? I hesitate to name it "structured references" because a "Excel table" is not the same as our "Database Range", there are some slight differences how they work and because I don't know whether we will get trouble with Microsoft, when we name it the same. Kind regards, Regina -- Olivier Hallot LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00 LibreOffice – free and open source office suite: https://www.libreoffice.org Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data http://tdf.io/joinus -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Term for "structured references"
Hi Regina, On Wednesday, 2024-07-31 15:57:01 +0200, Regina Henschel wrote: > Suggestions? I hesitate to name it > "structured references" because a "Excel table" is not the same as our > "Database Range", there are some slight differences how they work Minimal differences maybe, but none that would affect the references/addressing comes to my head ad-hoc. I'd still go with Structured References though, because that is what people would be looking for and it's all over the net. Or maybe Table References (for which TableRef internally is used in our code), but that's not as obvious for end users as we don't use the term Table (yet). > and > because I don't know whether we will get trouble with Microsoft, when we > name it the same. I don't see any indication that the term would be trademarked, but of course IANAL and I didn't do a research either. Eike -- GPG key 0x6A6CD5B765632D3A - 2265 D7F3 A7B0 95CC 3918 630B 6A6C D5B7 6563 2D3A -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Aug-08 (THU)
Stuart, bug 161709 should definitely not be closed - because its initial
scope, which was an aesthetic complaint ("it's ugly") was expanded to
discuss the more fundamental, and grave, problem with the new active
cell rectangle: The hiding of content:
https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=194910
(see the difference between 24.2 and 24.8)
that was initially filed as bug 161740, but by Rafael's suggestion and
your insistence, we merged that into 161709. This was not resolved;
there was some tweaking done, but the essential problem remains:
https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=195452
because of the degradation, the user cannot tell whether any of the two
(and in extreme cases 4) the adjacent cells are empty or not!
I don't understand how you can say that there is "NO UI/UX justification
to revert".
Eyal
On 31/07/2024 21:37, V Stuart Foote wrote:
On 2024-07-31 13:49, Eyal Rozenberg wrote:
Why is the active cell rectangle situation not on the agenda? Neither
for this week nor even for next? It wasn't backed out yet, and degrades
a version that is in RC state, in a highly conspicuous way. That's bad.
Eyal
On 30/07/2024 18:38, Heiko Tietze wrote:
Hello everyone,
That would be bug 161709, which frankly should be closed now!
Adjusting the UpdateCUrsorOverely() follow-ups to bug 161234 and bug 143733
I see *NO* UI/UX justification to revert implemented dev effort(s) which
on principle would be highly counter productive.
=-ref-=
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161234
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143733
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[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-31
Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Mike, Justin, Stephane, Stuart, Cor Tickets/Topics (Suggested bump-up (Eyal): * Cell selecting fat border looks ugly especially if you selected some cell range, it also can block content in other cells https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709 + Rafael: Made commits to improve the cosmetic situation, consider the bug fixed. + Rafael: This was done to resolve 143733, which requested the rectangle not cover the active cell + Heiko: Suggest accepting the current situation for now + Eyal: Serious degradation of UX - text in surrounding cells partially hidden, can make one value appear as another due to hiding. + Eyal: Suggest back-out of changes to before 143733, for now, and reconsideration. Must fix this for 24.8 release. + Eyal, Mihai, Rafael, Roman, flm2: Excel active cell rectangle looks nice => please discuss at Bugzilla or the mailinglists (Heiko) ) * No option to automatically indent multiline list entries to align with numbering followed by space + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156071 + line up *subsequent lines* of each list entry, see c12 + no good example for the necessity (Mike, Cor, Heiko) + mandatory to have this as cross-platform feature (Justin, Cor) + A tab is, in the general sense, an inherently flawed solution, because once your number exceeds the tab width - you'll overflow and the alignment will be messed up (Eyal) + Request is reasonable (Eyal): + Follows a different aesthetic principle: Fixed amount of space between number and paragraph content v-start rather than uniform content v-start across all paragraphs + Should be implemented via a paragraph feature to move all lines further in to respect the maximum constraints on each individual line (e.g. numbering, wrapping around frames etc.), ensuring that the paragraph's v-start is uniform across all lines, without having to set it explicitly using indentation and/or tabs. + Should be usable even without numbering being active (an aspect of a paragraph's style) + requires probably also to start a list from any number (Heiko) + MSO does exactly the same as we do (Heiko) => comment * Tab stop of list contents increases then decreases in default Roman numeral list, looking messy + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162133 + Microsoft Office forces right alignment for Roman numerals, often with horrible results (Justin) + right-alignment is not the right solution => WF (Stephane, Cor) => solution follows bug 156071 * PIVOTTABLE: Formating Pivot Tables + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51732 + double-click brings up the Data Field dialog currently, add a context menu (Stephane. Cor) + perhaps more obvious via push button? (Sahil) => provide a context menu for the functions * Magnifier Tool for a quick overview and spot zoom into a document in Multiple-page view + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162101 + magnifier is always just a click away, eg. Win + +/- on KDE + bug it does not render again with a higher resolution (Heiko) + "magnifier" would be an excellent feature *in general* (Stuart, Cor) + necessary if the app DPI differs from the screen DPI (Csongor) + duplicates / relates to bug 101646 "UI option "Scaling" was removed" with a lot duplicates itself + weird relation to multi-page view; suggest to do with low priority (Eyal) => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Aug-08 (THU)
On 2024-07-31 13:49, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Why is the active cell rectangle situation not on the agenda? Neither for this week nor even for next? It wasn't backed out yet, and degrades a version that is in RC state, in a highly conspicuous way. That's bad. Eyal On 30/07/2024 18:38, Heiko Tietze wrote: Hello everyone, That would be bug 161709, which frankly should be closed now! Adjusting the UpdateCUrsorOverely() follow-ups to bug 161234 and bug 143733 I see *NO* UI/UX justification to revert implemented dev effort(s) which on principle would be highly counter productive. =-ref-= https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161709 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161234 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143733 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Aug-08 (THU)
Why is the active cell rectangle situation not on the agenda? Neither for this week nor even for next? It wasn't backed out yet, and degrades a version that is in RC state, in a highly conspicuous way. That's bad. Eyal On 30/07/2024 18:38, Heiko Tietze wrote: Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, August/08, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * "Text direction" in page style dialog, with both Asian and RTL-CTL, is inconsistent and confusing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162200 * Table > Properties > Text Flow > Text Orientation is misphrased and confusing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162201 * STYLES pane -- duplicate style (an additional option beside the existing new style from selection + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162209 + WF'ed before on bug 152189 * Terrible usability of AutoText dialog when creating new AutoText + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52607 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Jul/31. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00067.html Cheers, Heiko -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Jul-30 (WED)
Hi Heiko, Again, I think I'm not going to make it to today's (31st) meeting :) Brief comments: Heiko Tietze wrote on 23/07/2024 14:35: + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156071 No doubt on what Justin and Mike comment. + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162133 Idem wrt comment Justin. + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51732 Supporting Stéphane's view. + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162101 Support the idea! Cheers, Cor -- -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member Board The Document Foundation - bizdev @CollaboraOffice - ceo www.nouenoff.nl - initiator www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Term for "structured references"
Hi all, Microsoft has for its "Excel table" a feature "structured references". https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/using-structured-references-with-excel-tables-f5ed2452-2337-4f71-bed3-c8ae6d2b276e When opening an xlsx-file, the "Excel table" is converted into a "Database range", see section "Data Ranges" in the Help. https://help.libreoffice.org/25.2/en-US/text/scalc/guide/database_define.html LibreOffice can use the "structured references" and they are retained if saving to xlsx-Format. They are converted to ordinary range addresses, when saving to ODF. Feature request for ODF is in bug 162088. But there exist no help on this feature, see bug 162275. I want to start a Wiki-page for it. For that I need a term for this kind of addressing parts of a database range. Suggestions? I hesitate to name it "structured references" because a "Excel table" is not the same as our "Database Range", there are some slight differences how they work and because I don't know whether we will get trouble with Microsoft, when we name it the same. Kind regards, Regina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Aug-08 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, August/08, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * "Text direction" in page style dialog, with both Asian and RTL-CTL, is inconsistent and confusing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162200 * Table > Properties > Text Flow > Text Orientation is misphrased and confusing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162201 * STYLES pane -- duplicate style (an additional option beside the existing new style from selection + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162209 + WF'ed before on bug 152189 * Terrible usability of AutoText dialog when creating new AutoText + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52607 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Jul/31. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00067.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
Let me start by pointing out that that was one out of 21 points I made. If there is disagreement about this being a requirement - ok. Anyway, my reason for suggesting that as a requirement was twofold: * The parallelism with tracking vs non-tracking of changes in single-user editing sessions (i.e. how LO works right now). * The sense that if we don't satisfy users of there being decent identity-scrubbing for collaborative editing, this will deter some people in some circumstances of utilizing this feature; for which reason it should be more than an afterthought and a consideration from the get-go. Remember that one of the benefits this approach will offer over centralized, third-party-server-based collaboration is exactly that of better privacy or anonymity. Michael Hawkins provided some additional scenarios from more corporate settings. Mine are more "personal", and are actually based in real life situations of people I know. Naturally, they were not doing collaborative on-line editing, but there was collaboration whose participants wanted to keep discreet. Eyal On 26/07/2024 14:20, Felix Queisler wrote: @Eyal: Is the scenario based in something other than fantasy? Right now it seems more like feature creep to me. If it can be validated, then it seems to me there could simply be an export flag to create a sanitized document. Like you can export photos in some software excluding metadata for privacy reasons. Best, Felix Am 25. Juli 2024, 18:11 +0200 schrieb Eyal Rozenberg : 1. Suppose Alice is working on a formal letter which she intends to send to scary company Bob Corporation. Charlie is helping Alice draft her letter, but Charlie has his own history with BobCo, and so does not want his name to be mentioned on the document in any way. Now, Alice can tell Bob: "Don't worry, I'll finalize the letter before sending it so that your name won't appear on it." but Charlie, who is not a techy person and is not experienced with "track changes" and such, is not easy with having to rely on her promise that "it will be ok". He sees his name all over the text: "Charlie wrote:", "Charlie says:" ... and is scared. 2. Similar scenario, but now it's a group of collaborators, and Charlie of them does not trust that everyone will be discreet enough to avoid sharing a link to the document, with the changes still tracked, with others. On 25/07/2024 18:54, Heiko Tietze wrote: On 25.07.24 1:34 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: * Some collaborators will want to avoid a record of their collaboration to be kept as part of the document... Sounds like a Schroedinger's argument. I just don't buy this use case. The P2P workflow would be the same as of today but synchronously. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
Many organizations have a strict policy regarding document attribution such that, for any document communicated to external parties, it shall have NO personal information contained within it whatsoever. Policies like that are intended to do two things. First, they reduce the opportunity for individuals to be found liable in civil cases brought against the organization. Second, by keeping employee names out of documents, it is hoped that the scope of discovery efforts will be reduced during civil cases. And another reason, is because organizations do not want their documents attributed to anyone except the organization itself. That is, publishing of documents/communications shall be entirely anonymous or shall be attributed to one and only one person. Think CEO, CFO, public relations office etc. And another reason, is that the organization wants to protect their intellectual property by ensuring that no individual within the organization can be attributed to organization documents or anything withing those documents. For example, this assists in patent protection litigation. For Microsoft 365 documents (word, excel, ppt, visio), a document inspector allows for the removal of personal information. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/remove-hidden-data-and-personal-information-by-inspecting-documents-presentations-or-workbooks-356b7b5d-77af-44fe-a07f-9aa4d085966f With more EU countries adopting LibreOffice as their official software, these legal and compliance type features are going to be percolating upward more often. Another important use case, it is very important to be able to remove personal/change/metadata information prior to exporting to HTML (before publishing to the Internet). -- Michael A Hawkins Stamford, CT 06902 USA On Fri, 2024-07-26 at 13:20 +0200, Felix Queisler wrote: > @Eyal: Is the scenario based in something other than fantasy? Right > now it seems more like feature creep to me. > > If it can be validated, then it seems to me there could simply be an > export flag to create a sanitized document. Like you can export > photos in some software excluding metadata for privacy reasons. > > Best, > Felix > Am 25. Juli 2024, 18:11 +0200 schrieb Eyal Rozenberg > : > > > > 1. > > > > Suppose Alice is working on a formal letter which she intends to > > send to > > scary company Bob Corporation. Charlie is helping Alice draft her > > letter, but Charlie has his own history with BobCo, and so does not > > want > > his name to be mentioned on the document in any way. > > > > Now, Alice can tell Bob: "Don't worry, I'll finalize the letter > > before > > sending it so that your name won't appear on it." but Charlie, who > > is > > not a techy person and is not experienced with "track changes" and > > such, > > is not easy with having to rely on her promise that "it will be > > ok". He > > sees his name all over the text: "Charlie wrote:", "Charlie says:" > > ... > > and is scared. > > > > 2. > > > > Similar scenario, but now it's a group of collaborators, and > > Charlie of > > them does not trust that everyone will be discreet enough to avoid > > sharing a link to the document, with the changes still tracked, > > with others. > > > > > > On 25/07/2024 18:54, Heiko Tietze wrote: > > > On 25.07.24 1:34 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > > > > * Some collaborators will want to avoid a record of their > > > > collaboration > > > > to be kept as part of the document... > > > Sounds like a Schroedinger's argument. I just don't buy this use > > > case. > > > The P2P workflow would be the same as of today but synchronously. > > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: > > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ > > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
@Eyal: Is the scenario based in something other than fantasy? Right now it seems more like feature creep to me. If it can be validated, then it seems to me there could simply be an export flag to create a sanitized document. Like you can export photos in some software excluding metadata for privacy reasons. Best, Felix Am 25. Juli 2024, 18:11 +0200 schrieb Eyal Rozenberg : > > 1. > > Suppose Alice is working on a formal letter which she intends to send to > scary company Bob Corporation. Charlie is helping Alice draft her > letter, but Charlie has his own history with BobCo, and so does not want > his name to be mentioned on the document in any way. > > Now, Alice can tell Bob: "Don't worry, I'll finalize the letter before > sending it so that your name won't appear on it." but Charlie, who is > not a techy person and is not experienced with "track changes" and such, > is not easy with having to rely on her promise that "it will be ok". He > sees his name all over the text: "Charlie wrote:", "Charlie says:" ... > and is scared. > > 2. > > Similar scenario, but now it's a group of collaborators, and Charlie of > them does not trust that everyone will be discreet enough to avoid > sharing a link to the document, with the changes still tracked, with others. > > > On 25/07/2024 18:54, Heiko Tietze wrote: > > On 25.07.24 1:34 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > > > * Some collaborators will want to avoid a record of their collaboration > > > to be kept as part of the document... > > Sounds like a Schroedinger's argument. I just don't buy this use case. > > The P2P workflow would be the same as of today but synchronously. > > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
1. Suppose Alice is working on a formal letter which she intends to send to scary company Bob Corporation. Charlie is helping Alice draft her letter, but Charlie has his own history with BobCo, and so does not want his name to be mentioned on the document in any way. Now, Alice can tell Bob: "Don't worry, I'll finalize the letter before sending it so that your name won't appear on it." but Charlie, who is not a techy person and is not experienced with "track changes" and such, is not easy with having to rely on her promise that "it will be ok". He sees his name all over the text: "Charlie wrote:", "Charlie says:" ... and is scared. 2. Similar scenario, but now it's a group of collaborators, and Charlie of them does not trust that everyone will be discreet enough to avoid sharing a link to the document, with the changes still tracked, with others. On 25/07/2024 18:54, Heiko Tietze wrote: On 25.07.24 1:34 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: * Some collaborators will want to avoid a record of their collaboration to be kept as part of the document... Sounds like a Schroedinger's argument. I just don't buy this use case. The P2P workflow would be the same as of today but synchronously. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
On 25.07.24 1:34 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: * Some collaborators will want to avoid a record of their collaboration to be kept as part of the document... Sounds like a Schroedinger's argument. I just don't buy this use case. The P2P workflow would be the same as of today but synchronously. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-25
On 26/7/24 00:23, Michael Hawkins wrote: Is there a way to get onto this UX design meeting (regarding comments) in the future? Everyone is welcome to join the team: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design I have some specific thoughts about comments in calc. When exporting calc to html, the comments become hover text, which is good. But I don't want to see anything but the comment itself in hover text. No authors, no timestamp, or anything else should be there. Just the comment text by itself. IMHO, there should be options available for comments. Such as toggle on/off showing data other than the comment data itself. Or, toggle on/off export of comment data types to html/pdf. And for compliance reasons, some users want docs/sheets to be scrubbed of all editing history, and that seems like a good toggle option too. Authorship was added to popup comments for https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73537 Ability to remove that data was added in follow-up for https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156336 And toggle to see or hide it is coming in 24.8 for follow-up https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156885 If an export still contains the authorship despite it being toggled off, please open a bug report. You can test a pre-release of 24.8: https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download-libreoffice/?version=24.8.0 Thank you! -- Stéphane Guillou Quality Assurance Analyst | The Document Foundation Email:stephane.guil...@libreoffice.org Matrix: @stragu:matrix.org Fediverse: @str...@mastodon.indie.host Web:https://stragu.gitlab.io/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-25
Is there a way to get onto this UX design meeting (regarding comments) in the future? I have some specific thoughts about comments in calc. When exporting calc to html, the comments become hover text, which is good. But I don't want to see anything but the comment itself in hover text. No authors, no timestamp, or anything else should be there. Just the comment text by itself. Bug https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62150 tangentially talks about it. IMHO, there should be options available for comments. Such as toggle on/off showing data other than the comment data itself. Or, toggle on/off export of comment data types to html/pdf. And for compliance reasons, some users want docs/sheets to be scrubbed of all editing history, and that seems like a good toggle option too. So there is wider discussion in which i would like to participate. -- Michael A Hawkins Stamford, CT 06902 USA Mobile: 203-550-5502 On Thu, 2024-07-25 at 15:18 +0200, Heiko Tietze wrote: > comments are nothing special (Felix) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-25
Present: Sahil, Rafael, Hossein, Heiko Comments: Stuart, Miguel, Felix, Eyal Tickets/Topics * LibreOffice shouldn't try to import the comment style from DOCX files + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161657 + define the attributes line spacing = single, indents = all 0, on the Comments PS (Heiko) + alignment = left might be needed since justified looks odd but works only for LTR + spacing, font color, highlight (Rafael) => do it * Duplicate Options Menu (“Field”) in Tabbed Interface + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161557 + no issue with the duplicated 'Field' button (Stuart, Rafael) + remove Fields from References (Sahil) + some users might be familiar with the current design (Hossein) + no urgent need to remove as long the space is sufficient (Hossein) + it is also available in the context menu at References (Rafael) => remove from the context menu but keep both at the tabs * Suppress editing of comments from other authors + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161978 + adding a remark with the last editor (Miguel) + comments are nothing special (Felix) + completely block editing; with means to override (Eyal) + user can change the name anyway; WF in the narrow sense (Rafael) + having too many information in the classic comments clutter the UI; perhaps have an editing history in the upcoming sidebar (Sahil) + annotation require storage properties; sounds like feature-creep (Hossein) + maybe use track changes; currently not tracked (Rafael) => TC sounds as a good solution * Add option to set default Wrap for inserted pictures + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157684 + idea is to introduce "Dynamic" image position depending on left|center|right alignment of paragraph + current default is Optimal placing the image left/right depending on the amount of text + previous discussion in bug 87720 c43/44 + using styles allows to change the default per document/template (Hossein) + if we decide to provide options for many/all options rather than forcing people to use templates, or vice versa, we should be consistent (Rafael) + we should go with a solution that users are familiar with / know from other office suites - and MSO has it under Options > Advanced > Cur, copy, and paste (Hossein) => introduce an option -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
Well, * Multiple untracked collaborators parallels the toggling of "Track Changes" for single-editor changes * Some collaborators will want to avoid a record of their collaboration to be kept as part of the document; and since we don't know when their collaboration ends, it stands to reason the document be made not to reflect it. That being said - One could argue this is more of an important feature than an absolute requirement. Eyal On 25/07/2024 9:58, Heiko Tietze wrote: On 24.07.24 10:29 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: - Support at least two modes: fully-tracked-changes mode and all-authors-are-as-one mode Why that? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
On 24.07.24 10:29 PM, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: - Support at least two modes: fully-tracked-changes mode and all-authors-are-as-one mode Why that? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration 2023-Jul-11
Comments following the UX/design meeting re P2P collaboration held on July 11th, 2023 https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00064.html (Numbering is for possible reference only and does not indicate importance) 1. I would not start off with the "business" scenario, nor one which is complex in terms of content. On the contrary, let's start with the second scenario, and simplify it further, to cater to even more novice users. 2. All the names are European, and three of them are religious. In fact, two of the names are practically "Christ". :-( 3. Let's simplify the second scenario: "Sathvik is working on a story he is writing as a school homework assignment, and wants to consult his friend Naya, who has more writing experience, about his work. He contacts her on an instant messaging app and invites her to join his editing session, to help him." Requirements 4. I strongly oppose the requirements: - "no need for additional conflict handling" - "you always see the current state of the document" just the opposite. Prefer simplicity and robustness of protocol and implementation, and do not require perfectly-synchronized state. Acknowledge that when two people are trying to edit the same place in the text - they may get in each other's way, and that is tolerable, even acceptable. 5. More generally, the "fast" requirement is desirable in some sense; but we must remember that LibreOffice is a slow application, and even more importantly: It is not engineered to be low-latency. This is easy to forget in these days of strong CPUs with many cores, but just start working on a weaker machine, with a large complex document, and you'll feel it. Or just think about the amount of time it takes to load, which in principle, could require almost no work before being able to take user input. So I would rather pose requirements regarding the added overhead, or added latency, of online interaction on top of LO's current behavior. 6. I would add the following requirements: - "Does not create nor induce its own separate network of users and connections" - "Does not require any central server for any kind of functionality, including the setting-up of sessions" - "Does not depend on the presence/availability of any particular one messaging, networking or communications app or platform" - "Usable with current _and future_ messaging, networking and communications apps and platforms" (and note I didn't say easily usable) - "Able to handle low-bandwidth communication settings" - "Able to handle high-latency communication settings, including complete interruptions" - Able to accept an offline "diff", i.e. an indication another collaborator has made certain changes, without establishing a connection, e.g. via a file, a single large message etc. - Support at least two modes: fully-tracked-changes mode and all-authors-are-as-one mode The mock-up --- 7. I like how it is based on "track changes" as it stands now. 8. I like how we do not see any chat functionality added to LibreOffice itself. 9. I'm not quite sure that a list of all is a tenable thing to maintain in the UI; or that it is useful enough to put on the sidebar. 10. We need to think about what happens when different people are looking at different parts of the document. Will the person looking at page 1 have no indication of what the person looking at page 2 is doing? 11. I'm wary of creating an address book / contact manager component that is part of LibreOffice. Can we / should we not use something else available on the machine? End-of-session questions 12. "How about special configurations like macros being disabled on one machine?" - The real question is what happens when one user runs a macro. Does this trigger something like a macro run for the other users? Or perhaps they can just see the changes resulting from running the macro? 13. "Relative links within the local file system wont work, and maybe need some additional work." <- Any links might fail to work. Absolute and relative, and even global web links don't necessarily resolve to the same thing: Different DNSes may resolve differently, servers may provide different response to different requests, firewalls and traffic analyzers different for each collaborator, etc. 14. "Have audio/video sharing additional to P2P collaboration?" <- I say: no! Let's not reinvent the wheel. People will do that using other apps - Matrix, Zoom, Jitsi, MS Teams, IRC, whatever. 15. "Can this communication be standardized so any office application could join?" <- This would be a very tall order, since that means the protocol would need to commit to a standard of what a document is, how it is represented, what an action on a document is, which may be no less of a challenge than standardizing ODF. In fact, I'm not sure we want to commit even to two different versions of LibreOffice being able t
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-17
Present: Eyal, Sahil, Rafael, John, Heiko
Comments: Regina, Tuomas, Stuart, Mike
Tickets/Topics
* Overhaul terminology on the "Text along Path" dialog
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161956
+ title without ellipsis, command should have ellipsis though (Heiko)
+ "Style" => "Type" (Regina)
+ "Character Orientation and Skew" (Tuomas)
+ "Orientation", "Positioning" ("Type" is too unspecific) (Eyal)
+ "Text Layouts" (Sahil)
=> Orientation
+ tooltip "Baseline Off" => "Off" (Regina)
+ disable controls for "Off" (Eyal)
=> move out of the toolbar and make it a checkbox "[x] Enable"
+ "Rotate" => "Characters Perpendicular to Path" (Tuomas)
+ "Follow Baseline" (Rafael)
+ "Follow Path" (if frame title becomes "Orientation") (Eyal)
=> ""Follow Path"
+ "Upright" => "Characters Upright" (Tuomas)
+ "Upright along path" (Rafael)
+ "Ignore Path" (Eyal)
+ disagreement for this
+ Interpretation may depend on user's frame of reference:
is it "upright relative to the path", or
"upright relative to the page"? May be confusing (Eyal)
=> no decision
+ "Orientation" => "Flip" (Tuomas)
+ disagree (Regina)
+ "Invert Orientation" (Tuomas)
+ "Reverse" (Eyal)
+ move into the to-be-renamed "Orientation" section, eg,
instead of the current "Baseline Off" item (Eyal)
=> "Inverse" (Orientation) and move to the other frame
+ Shadow Offset: tooltip "Distance X/Y" are unclear (Eyal)
=> comment
* Setting to add XY shift to pasted drawing etc. objects
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161950
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97993
+ see also https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100028
+ sometimes it has an advantage to place the copied object at the
exact position, for example when the user deletes the source or
if the target is some other document (Heiko, Eyal)
+ prefer a slight offset to give some feedback of the paste
option (John, Rafael)
+ moving an object is simple (Eyal) but shift+arrow for large movements
could place the object at the exact position again (Heiko)
+ cut objects likely not wanted to be offset (Heiko)
+ objects at the edge of the universe? would be placed at the
max position (Rafael)
+ introduce an option to toggle the offset on/off (Eyal)
=> do it
* When toggling an item in toolbar context menu > Visible Buttons
- keep the menu open
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161949
+ odd with all other menu selection actions (Stuart)
+ standard behavior (Heiko)
+ tools > customize offers a static dialog for this (Stuart)
=> WF
* Viewing: Feature request. Is it possible to add a horizontal
scroll search
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161862
+ only reasonable use case is probably to focus some column/cell
that is out of view so one can see the content from Z1:100 while
at the same time A1:100 is taken into the tooltip on scroll (Heiko)
+ freeze is a sufficient function for this (Rafael)
+ or hide columns (Heiko)
+ showing content from the sheet in a tooltip would be a
hack (Rafael, Heiko, Eyal)
+ wouldn't work on all OS/DE anyway (Rafael)
=> no compelling use case, hackish implementation => WF
* Implement Cyrillic Mongolian numbering for headings
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161744
+ add Mongolian for now and fix the lengthy list later (and
create an extra ticket for that) (Eyal)
+ make the alphanumeric letters depending on the language of
the character style per list style (Heiko)
+ have a "More..." option and show alternatives in an extra
dialog (Mike)
=> comment
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[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Jul-25 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, July/25, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * LibreOffice shouldn't try to import the comment style from DOCX files + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161657 * Duplicate Options Menu (“Field”) in Tabbed Interface + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161557 * Suppress editing of comments from other authors + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161978 * Add option to set default Wrap for inserted pictures + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157684 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Jul/17. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00063.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-11
Present: Sahil, Michael, Heiko Tickets/Topics *P2P collaboration* _User Stories_ * Simon wants to run a business meeting. He invites co-workers into the editing of a milestone document with text, numbers, and charts. After finalizing the content together, he as well as all colleagues add their signature so the document does not need to cycle through the company anymore. * Kryztina has to complete a form with a lot of bureaucratic text, and she struggles to understand all details as a person with migration background. She invites Christian into the editing to help her. * Maurizio works on a document with sensitive content. He needs help to accomplish a task but is not allowed to share the document publicly. So he invites Olivier to assist. * Eve has to insert some numbers in a spreadsheet but lacks on all data sources. She invites Benjamin to add his information while editing her own content. _Requirements_ * Easy to use: inviting a person is done as known from chat programs * Secure: privacy is always guaranteed * Fast: interaction feels never misplaced; no need for additional conflict handling as you always see the current state of the document * Reliability: everybody has a full copy of the document locally; and retrieves it when (re-)connecting; maybe it is necessary in some situations to protect the ownership and block storing the document on other participant's computer _Mockup_ * https://i.imgur.com/qywXe2t.png + (1) modifications are done likewise asynchronous tracked changes + (2) list of participants with an Add button to get the dialog (3) + (3) address book-like dialog to pick communication channels to invite people _Questions_ * How about special configurations like macros being disabled on one machine? * Relative links within the local file system wont work, and maybe need some additional work. * Have audio/video sharing additional to P2P collaboration? * Can this communication be standardized so any office application could join? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Jul-17 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, July/17, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Overhaul terminology on the "Text along Path" dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161956 * Setting to add XY shift to pasted drawing etc. objects + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161950 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97993 + see also https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100028 * When toggling an item in toolbar context menu > Visible Buttons - keep the menu open + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161949 * Viewing: Feature request. Is it possible to add a horizontal scroll search + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161862 * Implement Cyrillic Mongolian numbering for headings + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161744 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, June/13. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00060.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Jul-11 (THU)
Some rough examples what I have in mind with user stories: * Simon wants to run a business meeting. He invites co-workers into the editing of a milestone document with text, numbers, and charts. After finalizing the content together, he as well as all colleagues add their signature so the document does not need to cycle through the company anymore. * Kryztina has to complete a form with a lot of bureaucratic text, and she struggles to understand all details as a person with migration background. She invites Christian into the editing to help her. * Maurizio works on a document with sensitive content. He needs help to accomplish a task but is not allowed to share the document publicly. So he invites Olivier to assist. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_story Requirements would result and could be * Easy to use: inviting a person is just a click away * Secure: privacy is always guaranteed ... On 02.07.24 3:51 PM, Heiko Tietze wrote: Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, July/11, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Peer-to-peer collaboration tool + topic has been started at https://community.documentfoundation.org/t/budget-request-for-a-p2p-libreoffice-project/12016 and is widely appreciated + for a kick-off we need use cases, requirements, and perhaps a mockup The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Jul/03. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00059.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Architect and UI-Designer Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jul-03
Present: Eyal, Sahil, Rafael, Bogdan, John, Heiko Comments: Stuart, Cor, bdac Tickets/Topics * Extending safe mode + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161249 + request is to migrate some of the version 6 user settings to version 24 + rather restructure the user profile (Stuart) + would export/import a user profile apart from the safe mode dialog (Eyal) + safe mode dialog is hard to use (Rafael, Heiko) + proposal at https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/Zj8nsETFTyPgeEB + missing feature to load an archived profile (Rafael) + access to each and every setting is dangerous (Rafael) + rather worth an extension (Heiko) or a stand-alone tool (Eyal) => WF; the dialog needs to receive an overhaul and has to become easier to use * Unexpected Selecting when character is selected and use TAB to move to next cell + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161455 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118698 + not a bug (Cor, bdac, Stuart) + no good reason to not extend the selection beyond it's unusual (Heiko) + perhaps thinking about the moving concept (Eyal) + how about use shift+tab to extend selection and move with plain tab (Eyal) + downside is that we change established key combinations (Eyal) + afraid of conflicts with OS; "don't mess with tab" (Heiko) + shift+tab unselects backwards + feels like a bug, in particular after the end of the table is reached (Rafael) + happens also when the selection is done per shift+arrow (Heiko) + and that feels like a bug too (Eyal) + not really a convenience feature as the same might be achieved with shift+arrow + simply press esc and get the expected tab interaction (Sahil) => WF, or not * Functionality request for Writer: improve dialog "Insert index entry" + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43530 + META in bug 122497 (Stuart) + usual autocompletion of lists; IOW the dropdown has an entry starting with BAR (Heiko) + probably caused by unclear labels (Eyal) + maybe tooltips help (Eyal) or forward to documentation (Heiko) => resolve WF (with request to reopen with more details) * Improve/create visibility for font fallback lists in the UI + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161378 + no reason to adjust or expand usage (Stuart) + bug is about lists of font families (Eyal) + font families are unclear to me; sounds like a legacy (Heiko) => no expertise in the group, comments on final proposal might be possible -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Jul-11 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, July/11, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Peer-to-peer collaboration tool + topic has been started at https://community.documentfoundation.org/t/budget-request-for-a-p2p-libreoffice-project/12016 and is widely appreciated + for a kick-off we need use cases, requirements, and perhaps a mockup The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Jul/03. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00059.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jun-19
Present: Sahil, Rafael, Heiko Comments: Stephane, Stuart, Mike, Miguel, Ady, Eyal, Cor Tickets/Topics * Allow typing a date directly into the ad-hoc field when creating a custom date property + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161393 + allow both entering a date by hand, while switching between increasingly large time ranges like decades with the pointer (Stephane) + nice idea (Cor) + just direct editing with some validation on-the-fly (Rafael, Heiko) + date picker with a switch so up/down change the year (Sahil) => do it * Change any style from a single window + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160735 + implement an additional view mode 'Picked' (Stuart) + unclear request (Mike) + "Save as New" next to Reset, Apply..., which does not overwrites the currently edited style but creates a new children of it (Heiko) + likely detrimental to usability (Mike, Heiko) + offer a primary GUI to perform the style management (Stuart) + -1, changing styles is easy; mourning heading with percentage by default (Cor) + Stylist offers drag 'n drop so creating some style and moving it below another, which takes the attributes, is easy to do (Heiko) + see no obvious improvement in such a feature (Rafael) + create a dummy style, move the styles to change into this parent and change the property of the parent + to create a new children use New from the context menu + run into similar trouble with shapes (Rafael) + same procedure, create a new parent and move the styles into this + but it's moving not copying - we may use an accelerator like ctrl+drag to not move but copy + changing a style other than the current (and all other interactions) should be possible without the Stylist (Sahil) + would add a listview to the organizer tab that allows quick changes of the currently modified style (and maybe remove the name option and have some editing capability on this list) (Sahil) => introduce ctrl+drag to copy a style and make the style name a dropdown so changing any style is possible without the Stylist * Search in both values & formulae + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161364 + agree (Miguel, Stuart, Sahil) + if implemented it should be labeled and working as "Everything" (Ady) + while FR distinguishes between Values and Formulas the QFS finds Values; OP obviously has not updated for a while + QFS should return Everything => go for the "Everything" option * UI: Hard to tell which side of a shape being used for as reference for rotation + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161441 + rotation on plain shapes don't matter (Eyal) + leg/pointer extending in the vertical direction when created (Stuart) + reasonable request (Cor) + some kind of indicator on top left sounds good (Rafael) + flipping horizontally keeps the rotation while vertically changes it to 180° + a) always visible, b) optionally, c) only when selected, d) only when in rotation mode? -> c) (Rafael, Sahil) + symbol could be an angle or icon + or use a different color for the (green) dot (Rafael) + could also be a dedicated rotation "icon" like MSO does (Rafael) + show the actual degree of rotation with the cursor (Sahil) => idea accepted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] No design/UX meeting next week
Hello everyone, cancelling the design/UX meeting *next week* planned for June/27 due to a meeting. The meeting *this week* is today, Wednesday June/05. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00055.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jun-13
Present: Hossein, Sahil, Rafael, Heiko Comments: Michael, Mike, Khaled, Stephane, Daniel, Jonathan, Caolan, Gabor, Tuomas Tickets/Topics * Wrong editing languages offered + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95274 + c11: menu should list installed languages (Michael) + checkbox "Do not automatically detect my document language" + "rework document Language Setting into a dedicated dialog" requested in bug 103036 + c44, c45: languageguesser/libexttextcat, see bug 139185#c4 (Mike), some wisdom in c45 (Khaled) + c53: only show matches that have a dictionary installed, feedback if the entry is a suggestion (Stephane) + c55: some examples; suggestions should go into a special section (Daniel) + c58: 1.) document languages, 2) *explicitly* specified languages, 3,4) heuristics (default languages for documents, user interface language), (system configuration) (Johnathan) + c63: libexttextcat was meant for full paragraphs (Caolan) + language guessing is needed by many users and should be improved (Hossein) + drop library and add checkboxes to the language list under tools > options > locales so users can define manually what they speak (Heiko) + perhaps not drop but make it an experimental or optional feature + code likely cannot become better (Rafael) + other lib https://github.com/pemistahl/lingua-py (Hossein) => make suggestions optional by adding "[ ] Detect languages" (off by default), show document languages in the dropdown and require user to pick one from the character dialog (as today and like MSO does), sort results according c55; do not add recent languages (across sessions); in the long run it would be good to improve the detection * Chart Properties sidebar only accommodates 4 chart type previews, but the Pie category now has 6 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161093 + a) either add a second row or make the items smaller, or b) list it as an extra chart type, or c) don't treat it as extra chart type but an attribute of pie (on/off, pie/bar currently) (Heiko) + would go with a second row (Rafael) + prefer c) (Heiko) => comment * flag when paging through sheets & the first/last sheet is passed +pageUP/pageDOWN + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161155 + sheets may fill the space and a message similar to the quickfind toolbar does not fit anymore (Heiko) + infobar with "[x] Show this infobar" (Rafael) + different workflow and rather WF (Sahil) + add UNO commands "To First/Last Sheet" (Heiko) + might not help (Rafael) + add (advanced) option to not loop, off by default for compatibility (Hossein) => go with the option * UI Better wording for ASCII-only characters + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161411 + Basic Latin is equally difficult to understand as ASCII (Gabor) + tell the user what exact character is not accepted (Hossein) + and tell what is accepted in the help (Rafael) + "Only Unicode 'Basic Latin' characters can be entered" with tooltip "Characters in the Unicode 'Basic Latin' block (also known as ASCII) including the letters A-Z, a-z, numbers 0-9 and the most common punctuation marks." (Tuomas) + "Character not allowed. Read the help page for a list of allowed characters." (Rafael) + "Character not allowed, only basic Latin alphabets, numbers and punctuations can be used." (Hossein) + "Character is not accepted" (Heiko) => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Jun-19 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, June/19, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Allow typing a date directly into the ad-hoc field when creating a custom date property + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161393 * Change any style from a single window + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160735 * Search in both values & formulae + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161364 * UI: Hard to tell which side of a shape being used for as reference for rotation + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161441 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, June/13. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00053.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jun-05
Present: Sahil, Rafael, Eyal, Aditya, John, Heiko Comments: Eike, Ady, Justin, Cor Tickets/Topics * basic HTML cell render + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161223 + by no means into the formula expression engine (Eike) + another formatting layer might be possible (Eike) + also not working to concatenate cell content with formatting (Heiko) + over-complicate things (Rafael) + could be realized per extension (Sahil) => WF * RecalcOptimalRowHeightMode should be effective for CSV imports also + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160983 + line-breaking characters should not be modified by the import process (Ady) + request is to make RecalcOptimalRowHeightMode available for every import, maybe with a third state that asks on input; but still for WF (Justin) + makes the import dialog overly complex, WF (Heiko) + probably not so rarely needed (Eyal, John) + if done as Ask it should not be a dialog (Eyal) + RecalcOptimalHeight was recently introduced with yes,no,ask and might be sufficient for the user (Rafael) + though it's not working as expected => NEEDINFO, likely WFM * UI - dashed outline for active cell border + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161204 + active cell/range indicator is meanwhile shown outside the cell (Ady) + change selection color or line style (eg. dashed with document color) depending on cell background on/off (Heiko) + clashes with marching ants on copy (Eyal) + cells with dashed borders would be another issue (Eyal) + Excel does two lines, one with the selection color and another in white or the cell background; sounds like a good solution (Rafael) + might be ugly as with do draw the focus rectangle only around the focused cell and the selection receives a background too; making the background smaller would be not so nice + merge selection color with the cell and/or document background (Heiko) => assign to Rafael * Support showing combinations of (named) style + direct formatting in Stylist + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161251 + do not overload simple controls (Cor) + show only on the flat tree like Applied Styles (Eyal) + inspired by MSO's Styles widget which optionally merges all information (PS, CF, DF) into the list (Eyal) + Styles Inspector does the same (Rafael), Styles Highlighter too (Heiko) + reasonable request; feature parity is always good (John) + MSO is not a good example for styling documents (Rafael) + low impact on usability possible, eg. per additional filter that shows applied styles + DF (Heiko) => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-May-30
Present: Hossein, Sahil, Heiko Comments: Michael, Stuart, Eyal, Stephane Tickets/Topics * UNO Sidebar 'Hide' and 'Show' sidebar deck (splitwin) -- a new function (available for assigning a shortcut key to it) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161037 + switch/toggle tab with alt+ combinations (Michael) + provide a keyboard toggle for the splitwin to collapse (Stuart) + ctrl+f5 closes the sidebar, the close button (x) closes, the special sidebar button minimizes it + overly complex interaction, suggest to not change it (Heiko) + interaction is ambiguous, when the window width is smaller than the sidebar width, the sidebar disappears (Hossein, Sahil) => resolve NAB/WF * Special Find&Replace presets with regular expression + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161029 + sounds good but with limited features (Stuart) + good for an extension (Eyal) + https://extensions.libreoffice.org/en/extensions/show/70066 + no room for presets, dropdown fills with previous searches (Heiko) + regex is complex and a few presets wont help (Hossein) + MS Word has a special dropdown to search for a couple of most often used special characters such as page break or soft hyphen => examples are rather suited for documentation * Provide framework to suppress editing with direct formatting of a styled document, or template + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153309 + must not force people into styles, WF (Dieter) + Tools > Protect > [x] Allow Direct Formatting (Heiko) + rather per-document/template method (Stuart) + however, we provide all means to hide DF interactions and disable it globally might feel broken (Heiko) + it's possible with MSO (Hossein) => go for it * Print dialog: Put initial focus to "Printer" combobox + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161082 + change the dialog landing to the "Printer" (Stuart) + keep at copies as this is more frequently changed (Heiko) + similar to MSO, move "number of copies" to the top (Hossein) + switching to the number of copies is easy done per alt+n (Heiko) => follow a11y * Add "Apply" button to all tabs of Table Properties dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160858 + sidebar/toolbar offer relevant functions (Stephane) + immediate feedback from the apply button is important (Sahil) + consistency is prime, Apply is available for styles but not direct formatting (Hossein) + rather remove the Apply buttons than adding to more dialogs (Hossein) => comment with recommendation to resolve WF -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Jun-05 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, June/05, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * basic HTML cell render + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161223 * RecalcOptimalRowHeightMode should be effective for CSV imports also + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160983 * UI - dashed outline for active cell border + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161204 * Support showing combinations of (named) style + direct formatting in Stylist + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161251 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, May/30. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00049.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-May-22
Present: Eyal, Sahil, John, Heiko Comments: Aron, Jan Tickets/Topics * When you select part of a column with merged cells, all columns that are part of the merged cell are selected + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158288 + NAB (Aron), + selection should denote/depict the merged cells (Eyal) vs. selection starts on top-left to bottom-right + we are Excel compatible, and actually even better (Heiko) + is a range-selection (not to confuse with multiple cells) meant to include all from x1 to y2; if so the behavior is correct + merged cells take actually the content from the top-left cell + copying of multi-selections is not possible + unclear use case, potentially impacting the workflow of many users (John) => comment with needinfo * Want MS-Word like auto-formatting of beginning of list item + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158874 + cool stuff (John) + could it be done via extension (Sahil) => do it * Form creating is too niche to merit a main menu item visible by default + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161031 + rarely used; conditional logic tricky to maintain and test (Jan) + was done to align with other modules, IIRC (Heiko) + changing the main menu is a PITA for users, showing conditionally like "View > [ ] Show Forms Menu" and also "[ ] Show Shapes Menu" is possible but would be quite uncommon; = NAB/WF (Heiko) + no strong opinion (John, Sahil) => resolve WF to safe users from the annoyance of changing menus * FORMCONTROLS: Add ability to Find and Replace field names + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160938 + intention is to (batch) rename fields, which is not needed (Heiko) + finding controls might make sense for a huge number of items, which is not so likely; and the Navigator lists the content nicely plus will have different sort methods (Heiko, John) + being an ODF editor requires a place to find everything which is defined (Eyal) + F&R with RegEx works well and might be handy for object names in some cases (Eyal) => both points are valid, keep ticket -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-May-30 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, May/30, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * UNO Sidebar 'Hide' and 'Show' sidebar deck (splitwin) -- a new function (available for assigning a shortcut key to it) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161037 * Special Find&Replace presets with regular expression + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161029 * Provide framework to suppress editing with direct formatting of a styled document, or template + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153309 * Print dialog: Put initial focus to "Printer" combobox + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161082 * Add "Apply" button to all tabs of Table Properties dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160858 All topics being on the agenda are collected in this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday May/22. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00044.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-May-16
Present: Rafael, Sahil, Cor, Heiko, Hossein Comments: Stuart, Eyal, Ady Tickets/Topics * Add .uno:VRuler button to NB Tabbed/Tabbed Compact cutomize View list + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160694 + use main menu (Stuart) + suggest to split uno:Rulers into VRuler and HRuler and make the two individual settings in tools > options > view as well as a dropdown with both options in the tabbed NB (and the classic UI) (Rafael, Hossein) + If you click on the button, it enable/disable both. But it you choose dropdown, you should be able to select horizontal/vertical separately and check/uncheck them. + vertical ruler are rather a frequently changed option and don't deserve a main spot on the UI (Heiko) => majority for the dropdown solution * Quickfind sidebar: Make the sidebar the default for ctrl+F + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160544 + not replacement but supplement; unfinished and not appealing (Stuart, Eyal) + matter of how the state of the sidebar is preserved after using (Cor) + option to switch makes sense (Rafael, Cor) + unfinished, at least accessibility needs improvements (Rafael) => add the option but leave the current quickfind as default * Allow choosing the page style from the sheets tab + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160920 + simplifying not needed as this is an expert workflow (Stuart) + page style can be changed via status bar > page style dialog (Ady) + but not picked, which is the case in Writer (right click on status bar) (Cor) + Writer lists the available PgS per right click on the SB and allows to pick one; makes sense to add in Calc too (Rafael) + easy hackable (Sahil) + willing to look into this one (Cor) => do it * Right clicking on selected text unselects it if the cursor is on a misspelled word + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98902 + same workflow as LibO in MS Word (Hossein) + suggested selection of the misspelled word is superior (Hossein) + drawback is that we cannot check phrases anymore, or can we? (Heiko) + maybe ctrl + right click for spell checking (Sahil) + bug reporter was unhappy with Impress, which is wrong and WF (Rafael, Hossein) + but rather unhappy about the inconsistency, which is an issue (Sahil) + to remove the selection might be "surprising" to users and we could add some additional overlay color as MSO does (grey for select + red on hover for spellcheck issue) (Hossein) => needsDevAdvice -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: behavior of new functions XLOOKUP and XMATCH
Hi List, > Combining parameter values for wildcard mode and binary search is possible. But there exist no way to actually do it. Excel gives an error messages in such cases. LibreOffice silently switches to linear search. So the fix for the error is "do not to combine the parameters wildcard and binary search" and thus use linear search instead of binary? Or can the error be caused by the kind of data (so that the flag combination that fails in Excel makes sense with some data but not with other kinds of data?) If the error always has the same kind of fix (do not combine these parameters) no matter what data it works on, it seems that an error message makes a lot of sense. Jan Am 15.05.2024 um 02:03 schrieb Regina Henschel: Hi Heiko, I write to you directly too, because I don't know whether the design list allows attachments. Heiko Tietze schrieb am 14.05.2024 um 08:21: Correct me but =XLOOKUP(C3;A$1:A$3;B$1:B$3;"INV";_3_;1) returns #VALUE! (Excel) or The parameter Match_mode can only have the values 0 exact match =, 1 approximate match >=, -1 approximate match <= and 2 wildcard or regex match. Value 3 is invalid. Whether wildcard or regex is used, depends on the attributes table:use-regular-expressions and table:use-wildcards of the element. That are the radio buttons in Tools > Options > Calc > Calculate > Formulas Wildcards. Err:504 (LO) =_Y_LOOKUP(C4;A$1:A$3;B$1:B$3;"INV";0;1) returns #NAME? (both) There is no function YLOOKUP. The old versions are VLOOKUP and HLOOKUP. What exactly will change? I have attached the current state of the specification. XLOOKUP function has more values for Match_mode and Search_mode than VLOOKUP and HLOOKUP. XLOOKUP can work on separate arrays for LOOKUP and DATA, whereas VLOOKUP and HLOOKUP work on a rectangular range. ...and some more features. The Excel help has some examples: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/xlookup-function-b7fd680e-6d10-43e6-84f9-88eae8bf5929 The new function XLOOKUP has a parameter Search_mode. Its values can be 1 linear search from first item to last item -1 linear search from last item to first item 2 binary search on an ascended sorted array -2 binary search on an descended sorted array The problem is, what should be the output, when the user sets Match_mode 2 together with Search_mode 2 or -2. Kind regards, Regina PS: ux-advice@ is the forward mailing list from Bugzilla and I'm not sure how many people have registered. Rather use design@ for input from the UI/UX group. On 14.05.24 12:23 AM, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi UX-experts, the new function XLOOKUP and XMATCH have a Match_mode with values 0, 1, -1, 2 and a Search_mode with values 1, -1, 2, -2. The Match_mode 2 means wildcard mode, that is ? * search or regular expressions search. The Search_modes 2 and -2 mean binary search in a sorted array. Combining parameter values for wildcard mode and binary search is possible. But there exist no way to actually do it. Excel gives an error messages in such cases. LibreOffice silently switches to linear search. The ODF TC is currently working on the specification for these new functions. The TC could either follow Excel's way or LibreOffice's way. From a developer state of view it is no large effort to change the current behavior of LibreOffice. The TC does not know yet whether Microsoft would be willing to switch to LibreOffice's behavior. I write to you for to get your opinion what will be the best solution from a _user_ point of view. Some arguments so far: * No error message would make use of the functions in macros and forms easier. * No error message might be better for using the functions in automatically calculations without UI. * Using linear search can be unexpected slow on a huge Lookup_array. An error message makes the problem visible to the user. I would love to hear your opinion. Kind regards, Regina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: behavior of new functions XLOOKUP and XMATCH
Re-adding the dev ML; Regina's full reply at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00045.html On 15.05.24 2:03 AM, Regina Henschel wrote: The problem is, what should be the output, when the user sets Match_mode 2 together with Search_mode 2 or -2. Excel returns #VALUE! for the combination =XLOOKUP(C3;A$1:A$3;B$1:B$3;"INV";2;2) while we do some processing. On 14.05.24 5:04 AM, Mike Kaganski wrote: Emitting error is the only sane way here.Absolutely. It is not some kind of interruptive error box but a typical way to give feedback on typos or for unspecified content. Silently switching to some other way of processing is almost impossible to understand for users. And I cannot follow the arguments that no error message makes the handling easier. If you want, we can run a poll what users prefer. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: behavior of new functions XLOOKUP and XMATCH
Hi Heiko, I write to you directly too, because I don't know whether the design list allows attachments. Heiko Tietze schrieb am 14.05.2024 um 08:21: Correct me but =XLOOKUP(C3;A$1:A$3;B$1:B$3;"INV";_3_;1) returns #VALUE! (Excel) or The parameter Match_mode can only have the values 0 exact match =, 1 approximate match >=, -1 approximate match <= and 2 wildcard or regex match. Value 3 is invalid. Whether wildcard or regex is used, depends on the attributes table:use-regular-expressions and table:use-wildcards of the element. That are the radio buttons in Tools > Options > Calc > Calculate > Formulas Wildcards. Err:504 (LO) =_Y_LOOKUP(C4;A$1:A$3;B$1:B$3;"INV";0;1) returns #NAME? (both) There is no function YLOOKUP. The old versions are VLOOKUP and HLOOKUP. What exactly will change? I have attached the current state of the specification. XLOOKUP function has more values for Match_mode and Search_mode than VLOOKUP and HLOOKUP. XLOOKUP can work on separate arrays for LOOKUP and DATA, whereas VLOOKUP and HLOOKUP work on a rectangular range. ...and some more features. The Excel help has some examples: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/xlookup-function-b7fd680e-6d10-43e6-84f9-88eae8bf5929 The new function XLOOKUP has a parameter Search_mode. Its values can be 1 linear search from first item to last item -1 linear search from last item to first item 2 binary search on an ascended sorted array -2 binary search on an descended sorted array The problem is, what should be the output, when the user sets Match_mode 2 together with Search_mode 2 or -2. Kind regards, Regina PS: ux-advice@ is the forward mailing list from Bugzilla and I'm not sure how many people have registered. Rather use design@ for input from the UI/UX group. On 14.05.24 12:23 AM, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi UX-experts, the new function XLOOKUP and XMATCH have a Match_mode with values 0, 1, -1, 2 and a Search_mode with values 1, -1, 2, -2. The Match_mode 2 means wildcard mode, that is ? * search or regular expressions search. The Search_modes 2 and -2 mean binary search in a sorted array. Combining parameter values for wildcard mode and binary search is possible. But there exist no way to actually do it. Excel gives an error messages in such cases. LibreOffice silently switches to linear search. The ODF TC is currently working on the specification for these new functions. The TC could either follow Excel's way or LibreOffice's way. From a developer state of view it is no large effort to change the current behavior of LibreOffice. The TC does not know yet whether Microsoft would be willing to switch to LibreOffice's behavior. I write to you for to get your opinion what will be the best solution from a _user_ point of view. Some arguments so far: * No error message would make use of the functions in macros and forms easier. * No error message might be better for using the functions in automatically calculations without UI. * Using linear search can be unexpected slow on a huge Lookup_array. An error message makes the problem visible to the user. I would love to hear your opinion. Kind regards, Regina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: behavior of new functions XLOOKUP and XMATCH
Correct me but =XLOOKUP(C3;A$1:A$3;B$1:B$3;"INV";_3_;1) returns #VALUE! (Excel) or Err:504 (LO) =_Y_LOOKUP(C4;A$1:A$3;B$1:B$3;"INV";0;1) returns #NAME? (both) What exactly will change? PS: ux-advice@ is the forward mailing list from Bugzilla and I'm not sure how many people have registered. Rather use design@ for input from the UI/UX group. On 14.05.24 12:23 AM, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi UX-experts, the new function XLOOKUP and XMATCH have a Match_mode with values 0, 1, -1, 2 and a Search_mode with values 1, -1, 2, -2. The Match_mode 2 means wildcard mode, that is ? * search or regular expressions search. The Search_modes 2 and -2 mean binary search in a sorted array. Combining parameter values for wildcard mode and binary search is possible. But there exist no way to actually do it. Excel gives an error messages in such cases. LibreOffice silently switches to linear search. The ODF TC is currently working on the specification for these new functions. The TC could either follow Excel's way or LibreOffice's way. From a developer state of view it is no large effort to change the current behavior of LibreOffice. The TC does not know yet whether Microsoft would be willing to switch to LibreOffice's behavior. I write to you for to get your opinion what will be the best solution from a _user_ point of view. Some arguments so far: * No error message would make use of the functions in macros and forms easier. * No error message might be better for using the functions in automatically calculations without UI. * Using linear search can be unexpected slow on a huge Lookup_array. An error message makes the problem visible to the user. I would love to hear your opinion. Kind regards, Regina -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Architect and UI-Designer Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-May-08
Present: Sahil, John, Hossein, Cor, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Stuart, Stephane, Dieter Tickets/Topics * Major design changes ongoing for "Better handling for multiline tabs + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528 * List images in order of document appearance in Calc Navigator + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160353 + at least four different sort orders: row first, col first, alphabetically, by insertion time (Heiko) + limited use case (John) + Navigator lists objects from all sheets making the sort order problematic (John) + maybe reported somewhere; unclear if users accept when the Navigator restricts objects to the current sheet => keep with low priority * Icons for promote / demote outline level should be improved + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158932 + clear depiction of the action (Stuart) + there are issues with RTL UI (Hossein) + dup at https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154523 + see also https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70102 => duplicate * Print multiple non-contiguous print ranges on a single page in LibreOffice Calc + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160610 + prone to complications; (cumbersome) alternatives possible (Stephané) + hiding rows is possibly a proper workaround for the rare need (Cor) => suggest WF if there's no clear response * Print (or export) only tracked changes + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160497 + sidebar lists all TC (Dieter) + macro on ask.libo solves the use case (Heiko) + reasonable use case for some (Cor, John) + but macro is a good solution => resolve WF -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-May-02
Present: Sahil, Eyal, Cor, Heiko Comments: Seth, Stephane, Stuart, Jim Tickets/Topics * Rename "Navigation" toolbar to clarify its role, avoid confusion, and relate to "Recency" + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160732 + "Position History" (Seth, Stuart, Jim, Eyal) + also in the Navigator dropdown (Stephane, Jim, Stuart) => no concerns, do it * Implement "recency" navigation for Calc module and make available from TB or Sidebar Navigator + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160505 + limit to named ranges, objects, etc. but not every cell (Heiko) + request does not seem to have a significant/compelling use case (Cor) + Can identify a reasonable use case, not sure about how frequently it's encountered. Would like to have heard more from Petros (Eyal) + no harm in having such a feature though => keep it with low priority * Column resize handle touch-target too small + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160324 + it is about 3-4 px and should be larger (Miguel, Michael, Eyal) + perhaps make it zoom dependent (Heiko) + wonder if the hit-area is dpi-dependent (Heiko) + might be problematic for hidden or small columns (Heiko) + we should test it (Cor) => give it a try * Offer to download & install missing fonts from online sources + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159950 + TDF cannot host non-free fonts, cloud-sharing might work (Stuart) + unclear what 'relevant online sources' means (Cor) + ideally to be done per extension, either storing content on the TDF site or as forward request (Heiko) + font management is rather up to the OS/DE; we may support this (Heiko) + extension is not least not the solution therefore since we would download the ttf/otf and execute the system's installer (Eyal) + repository should allow downloading of plain font to make easy installation possible (Eyal) + topic has been discussed extensively before, eg in tdf#78186, 91886, 113496, or 146291 (Heiko) + see also https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/10/21/dealing-with-missing-fonts/ => feature is definitely desirable and ideally become combined with a previously filed ticket -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-May-08 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, May/08, 20:00 GMT+2 resp. 6pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * List images in order of document appearance in Calc Navigator + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160353 * Icons for promote / demote outline level should be improved + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158932 * Print multiple non-contiguous print ranges on a single page in LibreOffice Calc + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160610 * Print (or export) only tracked changes + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160497 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, May/02. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00036.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Apr-24
Sorry for missing a meeting with a few of "my own" bug reports... On 24/04/2024 21:58, Heiko Tietze wrote: * Want indication of whether a master slide is in use or not + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160403 + MSO Powerpoints shows the number of slides in a tooltip (Stephane) + additional boolean indication would be nice (Eyal) + tooltip sounds good and is not harmful (John) + not much useful since "Delete Master" is only available if the slide master is not in use (Cor) ... but you only see that if you right-click the master. The boolean indication suggestion would make you aware of this about all visible masters at once. But I agree with the low priority. => no objection, low priority * When right-clicking a font family combo-box, offer font meta-data + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152487 + unclear use case and much likely off-topic being available in font management tools (Heiko) I will have to make the use case clearer on the bug page. Again, sorry for not being around to make that case. + info dialog sounds good but rather via special characters or in the character properties dialog (Stuart) + only use case is compatibility with some other font (John) That's an interesting use case, but not what I had in mind. + likely not part of the meta data + the Internet returns all search results (Cor) The point is to help the user select an item on a list, while the list is open - so that the user doesn't have to search for information elsewhere (e.g. the Internet). > => idea does not find support; WF> * Make possible 2 or more impress in fullscreen each on a dedicated monitor AND each seekable independently with user-defined hotkeys per each file + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160242 First of all, I really think this bug report should have been split up into several ones - and the issues were sort of mapped on the bug page: A. run two presentations full-screen at same time (on two monitors) B. Keyboard-navigate in two running full-screen presentation (i.e. different shortcuts) C. Same as B, but arbitrary number of presentations D. Support per-presentation navigation shortcut choices, persisted in the ODP file > + start Impress twice (Stephane) When you start Impress twice you're still left with just the one instance running. I guess you can force a second instance (with a different profile folder perhaps?) but even then, IIANM, Impress is "imperialistic" when in Full-Screen mode. Op claimed this doesn't work right now. workflow is supported with a third monitor (John) 1. Is it? Can you elaborate on the bug page? 2. What about two monitors? > + too niche, better suited for an extension (Stephane, Sahil) I partially disagree, considering the breakdown above: A: Not so niche, in my opinion. Occasionally you want to show slides from different presentations on different monitors - without having combined them into a multi-monitor-targeting presentation (do we even have that?). Happened to me already. B: If Alt-Tab worked (which we can't know, since A is not possible yet), then this would be kind of niche. C, D: That's the niche part. > => WF Disagree! It looks like (some of) the ask changes app behavior rather than enhancing it. The per-file shortcuts sounds like extension material to me though. Suggest breakup instead then INVALID (or MOVED) on this one. I would say A - NEW B - UNCONFIRMED (or LATER?) C, D - WONTFIX -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Apr-24
Present: Cor, Sahil, John, Ring, Heiko Comments: Stephane, Eyal, Stuart Tickets/Topics * Bullets and Numbering dialog in Writer does not say it's about an implicit list style + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160629 + list styles created and applied via toolbar are hard to identify as such in the B&N dialog + no label substitutes the need to learn how this works; we may drop all shortcuts and ease functions but the cost is too high (Heiko, Cor) => suggest WF * Want indication of whether a master slide is in use or not + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160403 + MSO Powerpoints shows the number of slides in a tooltip (Stephane) + additional boolean indication would be nice (Eyal) + tooltip sounds good and is not harmful (John) + not much useful since "Delete Master" is only available if the slide master is not in use (Cor) => no objection, low priority * When right-clicking a font family combo-box, offer font meta-data + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152487 + unclear use case and much likely off-topic being available in font management tools (Heiko) + info dialog sounds good but rather via special characters or in the character properties dialog (Stuart) + only use case is compatibility with some other font (John) + likely not part of the meta data + the Internet returns all search results (Cor) => idea does not find support; WF * Make possible 2 or more impress in fullscreen each on a dedicated monitor AND each seekable independently with user-defined hotkeys per each file + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160242 + start Impress twice (Stephane), workflow is supported with a third monitor (John) + too niche, better suited for an extension (Stephane, Sahil) => WF -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-May-02 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, May/02, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Rename "Navigation" toolbar to clarify its role, avoid confusion, and relate to "Recency" + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160732 * Implement "recency" navigation for Calc module and make available from TB or Sidebar Navigator + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160505 * Column resize handle touch-target too small + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16032 * Offer to download & install missing fonts from online sources + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159950 All topics being on the agenda are collected in this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Wednesday Apr/24. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00033.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Apr-18
Present: Hossein, Sahil, ring, Heiko Comments: Ady, Brian, Cor, Eyal, Rafael, Jeff, Stephane Tickets/Topics * Calc: default anchor everything to CELL + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160452 + change default needs to have good reasons (Heiko) + add option to define the default is over-engineering (Heiko) + behavior my have changed in the past (Hossein) => resolve WF; suggest to change the topic into "remember last setting" * When opening Advanced filter dialog the "From" field should be filled with the address of current selection + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150937 + reasonable request (Ady) + confusing label "Read Filter Criteria From" (Ady) + more common label is possible, eg. "Select Range" but unlikely to be more clear (Heiko) + prefilling data does not harm (Hossein, Heiko) => go for it * Using clone formatting enables scrolling with the mouse -- but it shouldn't + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99608 + "issue" happens only when moving slowly from top, where moving the cursor on top makes sense + smooth scrolling rather than to jump to a certain position could be a solution (Hossein) => suggest to duplicate with 46988 * Turn on "Range contains column labels" by default + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150027 + different scenarios, requires more intelligent function (Brian) + remember last user choice for this option (Eyal) + controls got moved to the same tab for bug 131155 (Heiko) + option is checked if header-like data is detected (Cor) + apparently only on Windows, on Linux the last settings are remembered + the dialog has always stored the last settings, unclear report (Cor) => keep the smart functionality, resolve invalid * Add timer/clock to single-screen presentation + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160227 + makes sense (Rafael) + unclear why the timer needs to be shown for the audience + presenter console uses own class/control + neither available in Excel, feature would lack compatibility => resolve WF in favor of 3rd party extension/macro * Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290 + to hide the object first requires additional clicks (Ady) + it's not necessary to hide the comment, one can move it easily (Sahil) + right click to select is not common interaction (Heiko) + respect the z-order (Jeff, Stephane, Heiko, Hossein) => do as requested -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Apr-17 (THU)
Hi Heiko, For in case I can't join today: Heiko Tietze wrote on 09/04/2024 11:21: * Calc: default anchor everything to CELL + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160452 Not convinced, nor objecting. * When opening Advanced filter dialog the "From" field should be filled with the address of current selection + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150937 Support. * Using clone formatting enables scrolling with the mouse -- but it shouldn't + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99608 Not beautiful in some cases indeed - but how to really improve? * Turn on "Range contains column labels" by default + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150027 I'm not convinced there actually is a problem. Commented. * Add timer/clock to single-screen presentation + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160227 The use case needs clarification. Give that some time? If that doesn't happen: WFM.. * Right-clicking to select an always-shown comment in Calc "clicks through" and selects the cell behind it + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160290 Bit on the fence here. I think for the few cases the described issue happens, and given the easy way to get where one wants, a -1 from me. Enjoy, cheers, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member Board The Document Foundation - bizdev @CollaboraOffice - ceo www.nouenoff.nl - initiator www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Apr-04
Present: Felix, Cor, Hossein, Rafael, Heiko
Comments: Mike, Regina, Bogdan, Timur, Cor, Stephane
Tickets/Topics
* "Page number" automatic field stops counting before last page if offset >0
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35694
+ help is clear on the function (Regina)
+ just a wording issue but rather introduce another field "page reference",
which would have the offset attribute (Mike, Regina)
+ comment 70 and 78 are wisdom; missing a good proposal (Cor)
+ compatibility is prime (Hossein)
+ neither prev/next nor offset are stored with docx
+ MSO offsets per field code like "{={PAGE}-10} of {={NUMPAGES}*20}"
showing "-9 of 80" (not stored as a field on saving as ODT)
+ offset for pagee count is via set variable > page + x (Heiko)
=> comment on ticket
* Replies to comment are in reverse order
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160350
+ chat-like order D, C, B, A (latest on top) vs. book style
A, B, C, D (latest at bottom) (Bogdan)
+ latest on top makes sense (Heiko)
+ current implementation shows comments on the place where they
are made, i.e. below the comment where one chooses: reply,
which makes sense to me (Cor)
+ all other applications do it book-like (Timur, Bogdan, Felix)
=> do it (consider an expert option)
* Add toolbar icons to change UI and scheme to switch Light/Dark
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160349
+ useful for tester and user (Rafael)
+ switching only tools > application colors via the new control (Rafael)
+ fixes fallout from bug 160445
+ strongly against adding rarely used functions to the primary UI,
options would also be hard-coded and not easy to remove later (Heiko)
+ MS has a "Switch Modes" option in the View ribbon (Hossein, Felix)
=> majority are for the option
* Pressing Tab with partially selected numbered paragraphs deletes content
instead of changing level
+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160317
+ agree on the expectation (Stephane, Felix)
+ inconsistent with inserting a literal tab (Heiko)
+ compatibility is prime (Hossein)
+ tab overwrites in MSO; but tab on the first list item indents
the whole list anyway (only second increases the level we do)
+ literal tab is inserted on any position >0, ie. inside the text
+ otherwise the level for the whole selection is increased
+ always indent for selection over multiple paragraphs (Rafael, Felix)
+ current behavior depends on selection mode, ie. adding selection inserts
at the beginning while extend does on the end (Heiko)
=> majority agrees with the request
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[libreoffice-design] No meeting on 2024-Apr-10 (WED)
Hello all, cancelling the design/UX meeting *next week*. The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, Apr/04. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00028.html MIND THE DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME! Meeting starts at 12pm UTC / noon. Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Mar-27
Present: Sahil, Antonio, Cor, Bogdan, John, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Stephane, Stuart, Timur Tickets/Topics * A11Y sidebar: Too many issue reports about direct character formatting + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159906 + group by paragraph (+ 0.5 Stephane) + maybe list per paragraph under one root node (Heiko, Antonio) + offer an action button (+1 Stephane, Heiko, -1 Stuart) + action is not necessarily to remove DF; could also be "Dismiss" (Cor) + could be a more complex UI with more interactions, filters, batch operations etc. (Sahil, Antonio) + could be done in a later patch (Cor) => let's go with the extra tree node per paragraph and maybe page too and no action button for now * Add all 3 Spotlight commands (PS, CS, DF) to Style Inspector + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160194 + maybe per icon-only toggle button (Stephane) + agree with the proposal as it matches the workflow (Stuart) + clutters the UI and is not in scope of the workflow (Heiko) + it's not uncommon to have those buttons in the UIs (Cor, John) + neither a big improvement nor a huge impact on UX (John) + customization is sufficient (Antonio) => let's do it * Use "Delete unused master slides" independently from "Minimize Presentation" tool + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159860 + warn in case of an excessive number of master slides + rather fix bug 158773 than alert user on some high number (Heiko) + MSO is loading quickly but still warns (Timur) + warning could offer to delete unused master slides (Antonio) + warning should happen on load; covers also issues with import from other applications (Antonio) + realize per infobar to not block the workflow (user may click away the confirmation box), OTOH depending on severity it should interrupt + label could be "You have an unreasonable number of unused slide master. [Clean Up] [x]" (Heiko) + hesitate to delete a lot of content with just a click, so - suggest a confirmation dialog when pressing cleanup (Eyal) + add a button "Inspect" to the infobar (Cor) + strongly disagree with different actions on the infobar (Heiko) + add Help button to educate the user (Antonio) => do so * MRU Recent files list entries numbered, no need to be + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160230 + number seems to be useless (Bogdan) + actual date/time like MSO makes more sense (John) + handy for a11y resp. keyboard only access (Stuart,Antonio) + Alt+F + U + 1 opens the latest pinned item, for example + numbers above 10 take the first character from the filename + number indicates the recency (Eyal) + mnemonics inside the filename are hard to spot (Cor) + alternatively we could go with alphanumeric characters A..Z (Sahil) + this would require using different alphabeta in different localized UIs (Eyal) => no good argument to remove the numbers -> WF -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Apr-04 (THU)
+ MIND THE DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME + Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, Apr/04, 14:00 CEST resp. 12pm/noon UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * "Page number" automatic field stops counting before last page if offset >0 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35694 + potentially misleading label * Replies to comment are in reverse order + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160350 * Add toolbar icons to change UI and scheme to switch Light/Dark + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160349 * Pressing Tab with partially selected numbered paragraphs deletes content instead of changing level + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160317 All topics being on the agenda are collected in this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Mar/27. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00026.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Mar-21
Present: Sahil, Andres, Rhesa, Heiko Comments: Miguel, Ady, Eyal, Cor, Csongor, Eike, Laszlo Tickets/Topics * Hidden columns should not prevent text from preceding columns from overflowing over their cells + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160011 + potentially breaks current workflow (Miguel) + could be done as (compatibility) flag (Ady) + afraid of performance issues (Ady) + support the request (Eyal, Cor, Sahil) + make it the default, and revert optionally (Sahil) + might be not so easy to find as compatibility flag but clutters the lengthy list of options under view on the other hand (Heiko) => do it * FORMATTING create a means to represent an integer as an IP Address + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=148184 + implement per function (Csongor) + solutions are spread over the Internet, https://superuser.com/questions/1764387/how-do-i-convert-an-ip-address-to-binary-representation-in-excel + https://www.browserling.com/tools/ip-to-dec + already have some number formatting types and another one would fit well (Eyal) + not simply one for all option considering IPv4/v6 (Heiko) + has a solution, if needed we should invest in the user-defined formatting (Sahil, Heiko) => resolve WF * AutoCorrect: Many symbol replacements should be defined for [All], not language-by-language, and work in [None] + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153979 + extras/source/autocorr/*/DocumentList.xml entirely controlled by the local community (Heiko) + [None] means _no language tool processing at all_, [All] should be processed in all languages except [None] (Eike) + [All] would be useful, but only for a dozen of the replacements, but by moving we can lose educating the users (Laszlo) + adding a button to show only the items added by the user optionally (Laszlo) + adding some replacement to the [ALL] category makes it effective for paragraphs with language = None but not en_US, for example; apparently it's working for empty lists but not if the lang list has some content + if [All] items would be effective, users wont see those in their language depending list (Heiko) + if [All] has the same content as the actual language list it's unclear which one is used (eg. [All] --> = -> vs. [Hebrew] --> = <-) (Sahil) => remove [All] from the dropdown menu (at this tab), and make [None] none (Heiko) * personal / custom dictionaries should be easily portable + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157981 + allow a dictionary to be saved as /.dic (Cor) + placing a dictionary (*.dic/aff) in some folder which is added via options > path to the dictionary locations does not make it available as writing aid; apparently it needs some registration + export/import could be a nice task for a macro (Heiko) + it's a generic use case for the majority of users and adding this to the core makes sense (Sahil) + if so, we could add export/import buttons to the options dialog (Heiko) => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Mar-27 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, Mar/27, 20:00 CET+1 resp. 7pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * A11Y sidebar: Too many issue reports about direct character formatting + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159906 * Add all 3 Spotlight commands (PS, CS, DF) to Style Inspector + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160194 * Use "Delete unused master slides" independently from "Minimize Presentation" tool + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159860 + warn in case of an excessive number of master slides * MRU Recent files list entries numbered, no need to be + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160230 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, Mar/21. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00024.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Mar-13
Present: Sahil, Rafel, (John), Nameless, Heiko Comments: Bob, Cor, Mike, Eyal Tickets/Topics * Cannot resize graphical objects that overlap header/footer + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159543 + change drag handles (Bob, Cor) + UI should give proper feedback (Sahil) + could be done by disabling the vertical and diagonal resize capability (which hides the size cursor then) + people may complain handles disappear; suggest NAB/WF (Rafael) + rather than hiding the handles we should block resizing before drag happens so the lower edge remains at the bottom (Rafael) + looks like a bug to me; suggest to show an infobar when the mouse is released but resize not accepted (Sahil) + infobar is disruptive here (Rafael) + change the drag frame color if the new size is not accepted/possible (Rafael) => do this * Changing Macro Security level should warn about the need to reload the file to apply the settings + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159985 + Reload in the background for all documents is not possible since changes may have been made (Mike) + show infobar requesting the user to reload (Eyal) + show a label in the macros security option dialog (Rafael, Sahil) + could also be the restart now confirmation box (Heiko) => majority votes for the label * close all (documents / windows) Writer + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159380 + add new command but just for customization (Eyal, Rafael) + quit and restart (Cor) + close documents from all modules (Heiko) + alternatively show the start center while modules are open + closing all documents becomes more important if we have a tabbed UI (Sahil) => comment * Add max shrink and space width customization options to upcoming smart justification feature + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159923 + as a compatibility feature any customization would deviate from DOCX (Heiko, Rafael, Nameless) + control on the paragraph level makes sense (Mike) + over-engineering is seldom good usability; no use case and no user request (yet) (Heiko) => resolve WF -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Digression from [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Mar-07
sirs, Sorry for disturbing this august assembly. I repeat my resultless calling for concentration on overall function without crashing, rather than on small improvements to appearance and efficiency of use. -- In my case i have listed aimilar "hangs" on the bug report site and received helpful but ineffective advice ad fixing the user profile (Which is empty, and even emptier after having cleaned out all preexisting choices and trying once more) I made a few very brief test documents today rather than risking my work texts (choosing the Times new roman type i always use. but only typing "text nr.xx and xxx in the content ) libre office crashed when saving, even though all other progams on the machine (exept the usual windows junk) was turned off. Below is what the operating system had to say: "soffice.bin 7.6.5.2 22b4 01da716c7d500190 24 C:\Program Files\LibreOffice\program\soffice.bin 41d25edb-3128-4b92-b9b6-991947c70f40 Unknown 55006E006B006E006F0077006E00 " And when using the restore text option the program hung once moreuntil i killed it. - I do not expect any replies from this group, but please do create a "life vest"- rescue button mode: which will enable users to copy existing text while waiting to shut it down or for|he program hang to resolve itself (assuming that stability cannot be reached ) In the meantime for my book manuscripts i must use Apaches open office which is stable. yours paul hofseth Den 07-03-2024 15:39, skrev Heiko Tietze: Present: Cor, Sahil, Felix, Rafael, Hossein, Heiko Comments: Stephane, Ady, Stuart Tickets/Topics * Auto-size the "Search Results" dialog (after a find & replace across multiple sheets) to avoid scrolling + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157207 + use ellipsis too (Stephane) + emphasizing the text that is explicitly being searched (Ady) + bug 157227 + agree with the request to use more of the display (Stuart) + wrapping might be another idea (Rafael) + rather not because makes reading more difficult (Sahil) + ellipsis at start and end to bring the search term into the view (Felix) + simple solution covers most cases (and can be done as easyhack) (Cor) + ellipsis hinders reading the text, eg. if the search term is near end (Cor) + dialog is good as it, width should be adjusted carefully (Hossein) + With various scaling factors (2x, 3x, etc.) and different DPIs (HiDPI) these days, the issue of too big / too small dialogs and the need to add scrolling can also be seen elsewhere (Hossein) => resize the dialog if the content takes more space but only up to a reasonable width * CALC UI: Menu item "View headers" in menu "View" named wrong + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159738 + changed because of the Notebookbar a) have a dedicated NotebookbarLabel b) change back and accept the longer label + or hide the View Header command in the NB variant c) change the UI label to "View Headers" d) accept the situation, ie. NAB/WF + a) sounds good but c) could be a quick solution here (Rafael) + probably with some tooltip (Heiko) + a) is okay but prefer d) rather than c) (Cor) + nitpicking anyway; tooltip is good (Rafael) + icon on the command would be nice (Felix) => add a tooltip "Toggle row/column header on/off" to command and the tools > options dialog * UI: A button to expand the animation picker dialog to dedicated dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145038 + icons may help, even in the current form, in sidebar (Hossein) + icon view like at the transition deck sounds good (Rafael) + dedicated dialog needed for notebookbar-only variants (Sahil) + on the long run we should add some styles-like widget for animations as known from MSO (Hossein) => comment * Reworking of dialogues Organize macros (make from 5 existing only one) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120658 + Issue is worse than that considering Python, and APSO (Hossein) + Most things (editing, etc.) are not usable for Python, even with 5 dialogs (Hossein) + Every change should have in mind that it is about macro programming in general, and not only BASIC scripting (Hossein) + unified dialogs are not always easier to use (Cor) + suggested proposal is difficult to implement and suspect a lot of side effects (Rafael) + APSO is the way to go for Python at least (Rafael, Hossein) => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.docume
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Mar-07
Present: Cor, Sahil, Felix, Rafael, Hossein, Heiko Comments: Stephane, Ady, Stuart Tickets/Topics * Auto-size the "Search Results" dialog (after a find & replace across multiple sheets) to avoid scrolling + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157207 + use ellipsis too (Stephane) + emphasizing the text that is explicitly being searched (Ady) + bug 157227 + agree with the request to use more of the display (Stuart) + wrapping might be another idea (Rafael) + rather not because makes reading more difficult (Sahil) + ellipsis at start and end to bring the search term into the view (Felix) + simple solution covers most cases (and can be done as easyhack) (Cor) + ellipsis hinders reading the text, eg. if the search term is near end (Cor) + dialog is good as it, width should be adjusted carefully (Hossein) + With various scaling factors (2x, 3x, etc.) and different DPIs (HiDPI) these days, the issue of too big / too small dialogs and the need to add scrolling can also be seen elsewhere (Hossein) => resize the dialog if the content takes more space but only up to a reasonable width * CALC UI: Menu item "View headers" in menu "View" named wrong + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159738 + changed because of the Notebookbar a) have a dedicated NotebookbarLabel b) change back and accept the longer label + or hide the View Header command in the NB variant c) change the UI label to "View Headers" d) accept the situation, ie. NAB/WF + a) sounds good but c) could be a quick solution here (Rafael) + probably with some tooltip (Heiko) + a) is okay but prefer d) rather than c) (Cor) + nitpicking anyway; tooltip is good (Rafael) + icon on the command would be nice (Felix) => add a tooltip "Toggle row/column header on/off" to command and the tools > options dialog * UI: A button to expand the animation picker dialog to dedicated dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145038 + icons may help, even in the current form, in sidebar (Hossein) + icon view like at the transition deck sounds good (Rafael) + dedicated dialog needed for notebookbar-only variants (Sahil) + on the long run we should add some styles-like widget for animations as known from MSO (Hossein) => comment * Reworking of dialogues Organize macros (make from 5 existing only one) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120658 + Issue is worse than that considering Python, and APSO (Hossein) + Most things (editing, etc.) are not usable for Python, even with 5 dialogs (Hossein) + Every change should have in mind that it is about macro programming in general, and not only BASIC scripting (Hossein) + unified dialogs are not always easier to use (Cor) + suggested proposal is difficult to implement and suspect a lot of side effects (Rafael) + APSO is the way to go for Python at least (Rafael, Hossein) => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Mar-13 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, Mar/13, 20:00 CET+1 resp. 7pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Cannot resize graphical objects that overlap header/footer + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159543 * Changing Macro Security level should warn about the need to reload the file to apply the settings + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159985 * close all (documents / windows) Writer + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159380 * Add max shrink and space width customization options to upcoming smart justification feature + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159923 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, Mar/07. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00019.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-28
Present: Sahil, John, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Ady, Mike, Rainer, Timur, Stuart, Tomaz Tickets/Topics * Lowercase "a" and uppercase "A" wrongly shows as one "a" in Autofilter dropdown + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159737 + AutoFilter follows the setting in the Standard Filter (Ady) + a) WF/NAB, b) description, c) configuration (Mike) + not so clear whether case-sensitivity works (Rainer) + would expect case-sensitivity (John) + users might be not aware of uppercase character/word if we hide it; rather let the user uncheck (Heiko) + all options better go to the full filter dialog (Sahil) + Excel shows items case-sensitive (John) + make it independent from standard filter option (Heiko) => comment * UI: Cell protection dialog reference menu that don't exist + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159748 + remove this part from the string (Heiko, Timur) + menu does exists; against changing the string (Ady, Stuart) + point to the help page (Tomaz) + against this hint to "use the help content" (Ady) + link to the appropriate help pages is reasonable (Stuart) + idea was probably to have a hyperlink in the string + alternatively change the label depending on the UI mode, or amend the existing text with the Notebookbar solution (Eyal) + sheet/cell protection is not for beginners and we can expect users to learn the function (Sahil) => preferably use a more generic description * Manage changes dialog should allow action on all filtered changes + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115515 + WFM/INV, at least from the sidebar (Heiko) => resolve ticket * Consistent polygon tool behavior in Draw + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131758 + (1) how to finish the input: easy to miss and hard to undo (Eyal) + perhaps have some interaction to undo the last point + edit points allow to remove unwanted + (2) finishing methods: MSO ends polygon as well per double-click but also on escape + (3) close a polyline: by ctrl+click? in any case up to documentation + (4) how to enter PolyPoly-mode: same answer as above + (5) Is it really intended... obviously no user has joined the discussion + users tend to accept shortcomings and we might do better (Eyal) + would rather think of a list that takes all points and allows to edit independently from the interaction method (Heiko) + giving a hint on the interaction at the command label? not so good (John) + any change needs to be a convincing improvement (Eyal) + Inkscape behavior is similar to our workflow => comment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Mar-07 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, Mar/07, 14:00 CET resp. 1pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Auto-size the "Search Results" dialog (after a find & replace across multiple sheets) to avoid scrolling + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157207 * CALC UI: Menu item "View headers" in menu "View" named wrong + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159738 * UI: A button to expand the animation picker dialog to dedicated dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145038 * Reworking of dialogues Organize macros (make from 5 existing only one) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120658 All topics being on the agenda are collected in this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is tomorrow, Feb/28. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00016.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-22
On 22/02/2024 16:46, Heiko Tietze wrote: * Simplified options dialogs You seem to have ignored the basic problem with how this bug has been handled, which I pointed out in comment: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90989#c9 + name, icons, interface, colors, ui lang, locale, and recovery should be sufficient (Heiko) Sufficient for what? I don't know, that sounds fishy. + RTL/CTL/CJK is important (Hossein) but should follow the locale (Heiko), Nope, shouldn't follow the locale. And that's because: 1. Very often, RTL/CTL-focused language users use computers with a non-RTL/CTL locale - either on their own computers or others' computers. 2. People may be reading, or even writing, RTL/CTL content despite that not being their locale-relevant language (e.g. immigrants and the language of their country of origin). and if a more complex setup is needed the advanced mode is a click away I am wary that relegating settings to "advanced mode" is a way of avoiding the problem of dialog simplicity rather than actually tackling it. That's generally. For RTL/CTL specifically, I _know_ that this is the case - because all of those RTL/CTL(/CJK) users will need the "advanced" mode even when they don't want to "advanced" thing. + could be done conditionally depending on locale setting (Sahil) Again, not good enough. + more tabs might be required in future (Hossein); possibly easier to use than a scrolling window (Sahil) Let's start by separating out the app-wide & module-wide settings from the document-specific settings. And then, we should probably separate out the default-template-ish settings out of there too, like default fonts and stuff. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-22
Present: Sahil, Hossein, Heiko Tickets/Topics * STATUSBAR: Making the statusbar configurable in Writer + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92406 + tools > customize sounds like over-engineering, we should rather do something like toolbar > visible button on/off (Heiko) + would be cool to have the priority available, perhaps more fine-grained (Sahil) + statusbar should be available for extensions (Sahil) + if it is possible to add commands to the statusbar such enhancement (if not possible out of the box) would be granted (Heiko) => comment * Simplified options dialogs + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90989 + name, icons, interface, colors, ui lang, locale, and recovery should be sufficient (Heiko) + RTL/CTL/CJK is important (Hossein) but should follow the locale (Heiko), and if a more complex setup is needed the advanced mode is a click away + could be done conditionally depending on locale setting (Sahil) + more tabs might be required in future (Hossein); possibly easier to use than a scrolling window (Sahil) + as long the options fit on one page, which should be the goal for a simple dialog, no need to discuss this (Heiko) => waiting for volunteers -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Feb-28 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, Feb/28, 20:00 CET+1 resp. 7pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Lowercase "a" and uppercase "A" wrongly shows as one "a" in Autofilter dropdown + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159737 * UI: Cell protection dialog reference menu that don't exist + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159748 * Manage changes dialog should allow action on all filtered changes + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115515 * Consistent polygon tool behavior in Draw + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131758 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is on Thursday, Feb/22. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00014.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-14
Present: Sahil, Rafael, Hossein, Heiko Comments: Stuart, Jean-Francois, Eyal, Stephané, Ady Tickets/Topics * Freeze Zoom as a global LibreOffice preference + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159156 + assigning +0 to .uno:Zoom100Percent as fixed shortcut (Stuart) + though must not touch Ctrl+0 in Writer (Jean-Francois) + ignore zoom-in/-out via keyboard or lock zoom (Eyal) + could be an option "[ ] No zoom per touch pad" (Rafael) => add the option (perhaps macOS only) * Comment commands in Calc's menus need to be rearranged + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158653 + split of comment-related commands is not ideal (Stephané) + yet done intentionally for bug 91820 + not convinced that changing the menus is the best path forward, it's basically grouping by action vs object (Ady) + other applications go with action-focused menus too (Hossein) + no better place for comments than under Sheet (Heiko) + when coming from the Notebookbar it feels wrong (Rafael) => resolve NAB/WF * Dialog Properties bigger then screen + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159409 + not confirmed, dialog is ~637px in height on win (Stuart) + but there is a duplicate report; and report is from gtk3 + reduce the number of lines for the comments textbox (Hossein) + turning the wall of inputs into two columns (Rafael) + has the challenge to cover long labels (Heiko) + long term solution: add some mechanism to VCL/weld that restricts oversized dialogs and automatically adds scrolling (Hossein) => do it * Page direction not the same as sheet direction + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158601 + recent bug reports have proven that users do not agree (Ady) + if the request is to bind the UI-only setting Sheet > RTL to Page Style > Text Direction (the superordinate setting of the text direction in cells) the recommendation is to rather not do + Excel knows a "context" option for the cell direction meaning if the entered text is RTL the cell becomes RTL (Hossein) + The context option will handle the use case automatically, and also handles the situation with bilingual cells (Hossein) + problem accepted, solution rejected = WF -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Feb-22 (THU)
Hello everyone, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Thursday, Feb/22, 14:00 CET resp. 1pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Making the statusbar configurable in Writer + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92406 + define requirements, scribble mockup * Simplified options dialog + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90989 + scribble mockup All topics being on the agenda are collected in this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 The meeting *this week* is today, Feb/14. The agenda can be found at https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2024/msg00013.html Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2024-Feb-14 (WED)
Hello all, the design/UX meeting *next week* is on: Wednesday, Feb/14, 20:00 CET+1 resp. 7pm UTC at: https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design Here is the agenda: * Freeze Zoom as a global LibreOffice preference + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159156 + assign a default shortcut to 100% zoom? * Comment commands in Calc's menus need to be rearranged + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158653 * Page direction not the same as sheet direction + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158601 * Dialog Properties bigger then screen + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159409 All topics being on the agenda are collected at this list: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&namedcmd=meeting&remaction=run&sharer_id=32942 There will be no meeting *this week*. Cheers, Heiko -- Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org The Document Foundation, Winterfeldtstraße 52, 10781 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Join us at the first „FOSS Backstage Design“
Will sessions be recorded? Or even live-streamed? Eyal On 01/02/2024 18:32, Alexander Brateanu wrote: Dear LibreOffice design-team, we would be thrilled to welcome participants from LibreOffice design at our new event *FOSS Backstage Design* where we want to take a deep dive into UX Design in free and open source software. The one day event takes place on March 6th, the day after FOSS Backstage, in Berlin at the Wikimedia Germany office. _The program_ **The single track event features 13 sessions from 16 international speakers who will be presenting on topics such as: *design methods*, *user research*, how to incorporate *Design*into *product development*, writing good *documentation*, testing and measuring *usability*and even how to *design for XR*leveraging the power of OSS tools. We will kick off the event with a keynote by Aparna Sundar <https://program.foss-backstage.de/ux24/speaker/ZLPA38/> in which she will share her experience on how to increase the human element in open source software. Aparna willdiscuss the ways in which software engineers or developers, designers, community and product managers can adopt and incorporate research practices in software design. In addition to our amazing line-up of speakers and sessions there will be plenty of *space and opportunity to exchange ideas*, discuss challenges and meet other *people who care deeply about designing*for *great user experience* Checkout the full program on our website <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#schedule> and read what our design experts *Eriol Fox*and *Scott Jenson*have to say about why we <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#experts>should elevate design in FOSS <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#experts>. _FOSS Backstage D_*_esign Tickets_*** ** **Tickets for #fossdesign are now available <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#tickets>. *A Standard Ticket is 25€*but we also offer Reduced Tickets as well as Supporter Tickets. In case you also want to join the main conference on March 4-5 at bUm, you can *add a discounted FOSS Backstage Design Ticket to your FOSS Backstage ticket*order. We hope to welcome attendees from LibreOffice design at FOSS Backstage Design! best regards, The FOSS Backstage Design orga team – Anne, Sven, Paul & Alex PS: #fossback and #fossdesign wouldn’t be possible without the support of our partners. Learn more about sponsoring opportunities for both eventshere <https://24.foss-backstage.de/become-a-partner/> — We are also always happy to discuss options that are tailor made for your needs and budget! -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Join us at the first „FOSS Backstage Design“
Dear LibreOffice design-team, we would be thrilled to welcome participants from LibreOffice design at our new event *FOSS Backstage Design* where we want to take a deep dive into UX Design in free and open source software. The one day event takes place on March 6th, the day after FOSS Backstage, in Berlin at the Wikimedia Germany office. _The program_ **The single track event features 13 sessions from 16 international speakers who will be presenting on topics such as: *design methods*, *user research*, how to incorporate *Design*into *product development*, writing good *documentation*, testing and measuring *usability*and even how to *design for XR*leveraging the power of OSS tools. We will kick off the event with a keynote by Aparna Sundar <https://program.foss-backstage.de/ux24/speaker/ZLPA38/> in which she will share her experience on how to increase the human element in open source software. Aparna willdiscuss the ways in which software engineers or developers, designers, community and product managers can adopt and incorporate research practices in software design. In addition to our amazing line-up of speakers and sessions there will be plenty of *space and opportunity to exchange ideas*, discuss challenges and meet other *people who care deeply about designing*for *great user experience* Checkout the full program on our website <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#schedule> and read what our design experts *Eriol Fox*and *Scott Jenson*have to say about why we <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#experts>should elevate design in FOSS <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#experts>. _FOSS Backstage D_*_esign Tickets_*** ** **Tickets for #fossdesign are now available <https://24.foss-backstage.de/foss-backstage-design/#tickets>. *A Standard Ticket is 25€*but we also offer Reduced Tickets as well as Supporter Tickets. In case you also want to join the main conference on March 4-5 at bUm, you can *add a discounted FOSS Backstage Design Ticket to your FOSS Backstage ticket*order. We hope to welcome attendees from LibreOffice design at FOSS Backstage Design! best regards, The FOSS Backstage Design orga team – Anne, Sven, Paul & Alex PS: #fossback and #fossdesign wouldn’t be possible without the support of our partners. Learn more about sponsoring opportunities for both eventshere <https://24.foss-backstage.de/become-a-partner/> — We are also always happy to discuss options that are tailor made for your needs and budget! -- Alexander Brateanu (er/ihm; he/him) working days: Monday-Thursday Plain Schwarz UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Schönhauser Allee 6-7 10119 Berlin Geschäftsführer: Andreas Gebhard Handelsregister (HRB): 205726 B Amtsgericht Charlottenburg -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jan-31
Present: Sahil, JJ, John, Eyal, Rafael, Heiko Comments: Jan, Stuart Tickets/Topics * Autocorrect options are very confusing and difficult to use + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158876 + renaming some options might be beneficial (Jan) + Separate the list into two lists, textual replacements/corrections, and formatting/structural element (Eyal) + everything is formatting and replacement (Heiko) + splitting should support the perception (Eyal) + Change phrasing, eg "Replace dashes" could become "Replace dash sequence with En-Dash or Em-Dash" (Eyal) + sure but the function is more complex and requires the documentation + distinction would be artificial and orthogonal to the M/T option; rather than renaming we could add tooltips (Heiko) + tooltips could be a help (Heiko) + sounds good (Eyal) + requires coding though => comment and recommend to not change the list => renaming is good; AI Eyal: provide a complete list of better labels * Non-corrective Autoformat settings can't just be placed under AutoCorrect + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158877 + unclear request (John, Heiko) + formatting such as *bold* or apply styles is not really a correction (Eyal) + no good alternative, maybe "auto correction/formatting" + wonder if changing the semantics improve usability (John) + camel case label is bad; but familiar to users (Heiko) + no apparent issue; all auto-corrections are also formatting too (Heiko) => resolve NAB without better alternative * Use Noto family fonts as default fonts for all the LibreOffice tools + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159261 + Noto Sans is being used for Impress templates (Stuart) + smalls like personal preference; against Google fonts in principle (Eyal) + rather add metric compatible fonts for latest MSO (John) + to open legacy document with the same layout after years is our self-identity; which is not the discussion here since we would change the fonts for new documents (Heiko) + Liberation fonts is our trademark; and it's easy to change; not worth the effort (Rafael) + a lot of effort to make the QA tests happy (Heiko) + such a change should have much more backup (Eyal) => WF * provide easy UI to automatically apply digital signature when storing documents + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159040 + checkbox "[ ] Sign document" at the Save/As dialog; clumsy solution but maybe easy to use (Heiko) + similar workflow but signing comes before saving (Eyal) + alternative is to have a default signature defined in tools > options > security and just the option to apply or not; needs some interaction to change the default, maybe via the current workflow (Eyal) => comment * It would be nice to have an exclude file type option from Recent Files + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159277 + exclude per module using a string like "csv;xml;tab" (similar solution available in IDEs, for example) + MRU is a simple and established paradigm; WF (Jan) + very specific workflow (Eyal) + use CSV a lot and want to see it (Rafael) + solve per extension that clears the MRU list on startup (Heiko) + better keep the ticket, maybe as easyhack, with low priority (Eyal, Rafael) => go for it -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Jan-25
Present: Sahil, Eyal, Heiko Comments: Mike, Ady, Rafael Tickets/Topics * Remove status bar 'document modified' indicator + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159073 + status not shown in title for new documents (Eyal) + title does not show the status (anymore?) but the save icon + redundant information is not bad per se, the toolbar button is primarily meant to run an action but not to give feedback (users may not expect it there) + with the Notebookbar UI it's not guaranteed to see the toolbar info + and the statusbar icon looks pretty nice => WF * Comment indicator in Calc should be red, not magenta + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159096 + border uses now the grid line color (Heiko) + red would be a bad choice as it typically indicates errors (Mike) + yellow and red might be used for cell background (Ady) + orange (Rafael) + invert the cell background color (Ryal) + looses the customizability and becomes difficult on mid-bright colors + do it just when the picked color is close to the cell background + algorithm is tricky, and variable colors make the display busy + Magenta (a bit less glossy) is used on Excel + Light Magenta 3 is a bit too close with "Bad" cell style, Light Magenta 2 is fine (Eyal, Sahil) + works also well in dark mode => change the color * Double click on a comment in Navigator should open the cell for editing + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158707 + in 7.4 double click goes to cell + in 7.6 single click selects, double executes the default action- in this case go-to plus editing the comment + a) edit comment, cursor at the end?, b) edit cell, cursor at the end?, c) just go-to and toggle the comment visibility, d) just go-to cell + in most cases the comment text should be readable in the Navigator and double-click is likely intended to edit the comment (all) + expect double-click to toggle show/hide; directly going into edit mode feels dangerous but just showing makes editing difficult (ctrl+alt+c) and my muscle memory is F2 to edit; so ideally we select the comment frame in order to use F2 (all) + single click does not change the view but shows this comment temporarily (until clicking somewhere else), double-click navigates to the cell, make the comment permanently visible, and double-click again hides it; when showing the comment per double-click also selects the comment for easy accessed to edit (Eyal) + double-click surely should not edit the cell content (Eyal) + comments disappear unreliably (Sahil) + having comments in a dedicated sidebar allows more flexible solutions (Sahil) => comment in ticket * When search key is not found, search text seems to be selected but is not + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158742 + behavior has changed but still no selection is being made + changing the search term partially is more likely, ie. selection in order to overwrite completely is not intended (Heiko) + ctrl+f selects the search text in any case (Heiko) + clearly NAB/WF (Eyal) => resolve ticket -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
