[libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
FYI Meanwhile at the Apache development site... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2347109/AOO4_rev_1468069.png (screenshot by me, under Win XP SP3, using Industrial theme and after un-selecting the usual top toolbars, which duplicate most of the buttons showing on the new left panel) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Experimental-new-LibreOffice-UI-tp4048178p4050356.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
steveedmonds wrote > I assume the panel can be docked left or right. We were just discussing > at work yesterday how the MS ribbon wastes so much space and it should > be down the side. Indeed it can. You just need to drag it to the opposite side (as you can with all LO and AOO toolbars) I couldn't agree more about using the ribbon (or any horizontal space waster) when most monitors now have a 16:9 aspect ratio or similar (i.e. getting wider and shorter when compared to the old 4:3 format). This is particularly important in small monitors such as 10" netbooks where vertical space is absurdly limited (600 pixels!). I hope the screenshot in my previous post provides food for thought ;) Cheers, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Experimental-new-LibreOffice-UI-tp4048178p4050454.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
Hi, Le 06/04/2013 01:30, Keith Curtis a écrit : > Hi all; > > I've written a proposal for a new experimental UI for LibreOffice Writer: > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:KeithCu I am not sure to understand well, but it seems to me that you removed the Navigator, Styles and Formatting and the status bar. If I am not missing something, that is not only a new design, it is a new workflow for the end-users. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
I'm wondering if anyone has looked at the UI that Adobe uses for Buzzword? You have to go to Acrobat.com and login to "Workspaces": https://workspaces.acrobat.com/app.html#o Also, you must have an Adobe account. Buzzword was a great standalone tool until Adobe bought it, marginalized it and left it to rot, but the UI is still pretty good I think. I think Writer would look great with something lightweight akin to Buzzword. Joel -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Experimental-new-LibreOffice-UI-tp4048178p4057475.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
Hi. A question. Anyone know how to program with VLC? I wouldlearnto use the VCL libraries ( Visual Component Library ). You know of some website or manual to learn to program GUI with libraries VCL ? / I have some concepts see video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz5UnNLtDA8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckRn_sx8CE /// But i must write these concepts with the VCL libraries ( Visual Component Library ) . I would see . if i can create some conceptswith VCL . -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Experimental-new-LibreOffice-UI-tp4048178p4057722.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
On 2013-04-17 04:08, Pedro wrote: FYI Meanwhile at the Apache development site... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2347109/AOO4_rev_1468069.png (screenshot by me, under Win XP SP3, using Industrial theme and after un-selecting the usual top toolbars, which duplicate most of the buttons showing on the new left panel) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Experimental-new-LibreOffice-UI-tp4048178p4050356.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. I assume the panel can be docked left or right. We were just discussing at work yesterday how the MS ribbon wastes so much space and it should be down the side. Steve -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
Le 16/04/2013 18:08, Pedro a écrit : FYI Meanwhile at the Apache development site... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2347109/AOO4_rev_1468069.png (screenshot by me, under Win XP SP3, using Industrial theme and after un-selecting the usual top toolbars, which duplicate most of the buttons showing on the new left panel) This is the most clever way for advanced styles users [1] to get rid of all those clumsy toolbars at once. Well done. [1] anyone wanting to be efficient using a word processor should be taught about styles *only*. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
Hi guys, I find this discussion a bit misguided. The idea seems to be simply to do an all-encompassing, radical UI redesign without considering the pros and cons of the current one, platform and toolkit limitations, or a possible development plan. It seems as though you are trying to find solutions without first framing the problem(s). Right now, the plan is to do iterative improvements rather than a one-go radical redesign, as we don't have the development power for one (we don't even have enough interested devs to work on our proposed easy hacks right now [1]), we want to test and refine as we go, and we want the transition to be as smooth as possible. However, I don't mind considering the big picture. Given that most UI redesign proposals stem from Microsoft Office's UI redesign, let's compare our current UI to Office's. The advantages of Office's UI, as I see it, are: * A single place to access commands. The user doesn't have to hunt for commands across menus, toolbars, dialogs, and sidebar panes to find the desired command. * Context. Irrelevant disabled commands are inaccessible and the most relevant commands are brought to the forefront, thereby making it much easier to find the desired command. Commands that are not relevant to editing the current document, like New, Open, Templates, or Print, are hidden away. * No dialogs. There's very little need to use dialogs, which speeds up the editing process and keeps the user focused on the document. * Previews. Changes are previewed instantly in the document. Whereas dialogs tend to have a preview area showing only the selection, using the ribbon, the user can see what the changes look like inside the document. * Better categorization. LibreOffice uses different categorization systems for menus, toolbars, panes, and even the "Customize..." dialog. All of them are unsatisfactory, with vague categories and oddities. Office has a single categorization system and while it also has vagueness and inconsistencies, it's a bit more logical. * Visual design. The icon theme and the skin in Office seem much more modern than our current look. * Less customization. It's much harder to mess up your installation in MS Office than in LibO with bad choices. Also, the Office Options screen is much easier to go through and use. The disadvantages: * Readability. It's much harder to read through the ribbon than a standard toolbar, as there is no clear path for the eyes to follow. * Complexity. The ribbon is much more complex than a standard toolbar. Therefore, it's harder to maintain and to make it adapt to changes. * Touch-friendliness. The ribbon is not suited to a touch-environment. Even under "Touch mode", it can be hard to target the commands shown with smaller icons. * Nonconformity. The ribbon is alien to all platforms except Windows. Mac OS requires a menu bar for each application. * Space usage. The ribbon takes up a ton of space. (Some propose putting it on the side, yet that could be a problem for people who need to have two documents side-by-side, e.g. translators.) * Inconsistencies. While I argued above that the categorization is better, it certainly has its quirks. For example, some commands cannot be found within the ribbon and are instead presented in a "Quick Access" toolbar or are not presented at all. The "Home" category is too vague. Notice that the advantages listed above don't require a ribbon-like UI and can be accomplished using toolbars while retaining all of the advantages of LibreOffice's current UI. Focusing on toolbars also allows a smoother change and less development effort. The proposed EasyHacks are a first step. Whatever we do, though, I hope we don't make things even more complex than they are now. Feel free to add your own observations. [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Blueprints -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
Hi Mirek, Le 20/04/2013 17:15, Mirek M. a écrit : Hi guys, I find this discussion a bit misguided. The idea seems to be simply to do an all-encompassing, radical UI redesign without considering the pros and cons of the current one, platform and toolkit limitations, or a possible development plan. It seems as though you are trying to find solutions without first framing the problem(s). \o/ WRT usability, we should consider that there's more than one usage. I can see at least two: basic users (home users, newcomers) and advanced users. Home users mostly use the toolbuttons and menus. They hardly know about keyboard shortcuts and close to none have heard about styles. For this public, the UI -- as-is or ribonnized -- is certainly useful. Advanced users want their job done with efficiency. For this they have learnt about keyboard shortcuts and they use styles extensively. For this public, the toolbars are almost completely useless. They eat up screen space for no added value. Conversely, the Stylist and Navigator are the toolbars of choice. -> I think the UI should consider both of those people, who have many antagonist needs. My dream is a UI that would smoothly bring the low-knowledge user to advanced knowledge. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
Hi Mirek; On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Mirek M. wrote: > Hi guys, > I find this discussion a bit misguided. The idea seems to be simply to do > an all-encompassing, radical UI redesign without considering the pros and > cons of the current one, platform and toolkit limitations, or a possible > development plan. It seems as though you are trying to find solutions > without first framing the problem(s). > I'm not going to lead a pros and cons discussion of radical UIs. My idea is just that in Python we could very quickly prototype anything radical you could draw. What exactly is better is above my pay grade. I'm here asking if you've got anything. I'm not interested in finalizing toolkit discussions. That is a dev issue rather than a UX issue. I'm just going to document that there is no de facto Python widget library and let the dev team figure out which is the best for LibreOffice. I'm not here asking for a development plan. I've got the first step figured out which is just to create a totally empty Python toolbar / sidebar. After that, anyone with Python knowledge could be involved to fill it in. > Right now, the plan is to do iterative improvements rather than a one-go > radical redesign, as we don't have the development power for one (we don't > even have enough interested devs to work on our proposed easy hacks right > now [1]), we want to test and refine as we go, and we want the transition > to be as smooth as possible. > I think you should have plans for a radical redesign. Incremental improvements are important for today's customers but it is also good to think beyond that for excitement, strategic, and competitive reasons. I understand that given you find the incremental improvement slow you don't understand why it would make sense to spend any effort on anything very different. But a key point of this proposal is that we could prototype something radical in Python. It doesn't surprise me that you find it hard to get people to work on Easy Hacks, nearly all are C++, and require lots of knowledge beyond that. It is like looking for supermodels, when there are plenty of regular models (Python programmers) around. It is really not that hard to prototype anything you could draw for Writer in a few months of one person fulltime. Unless you know what you want, you don't know how smooth the transition will be. > However, I don't mind considering the big picture. > Given that most UI redesign proposals stem from Microsoft Office's UI > redesign, let's compare our current UI to Office's. > The advantages of Office's UI, as I see it, are: > * A single place to access commands. The user doesn't have to hunt for > commands across menus, toolbars, dialogs, and sidebar panes to find the > desired command. > * Context. Irrelevant disabled commands are inaccessible and the most > relevant commands are brought to the forefront, thereby making it much > easier to find the desired command. Commands that are not relevant to > editing the current document, like New, Open, Templates, or Print, are > hidden away. > * No dialogs. There's very little need to use dialogs, which speeds up the > editing process and keeps the user focused on the document. > * Previews. Changes are previewed instantly in the document. Whereas > dialogs tend to have a preview area showing only the selection, using the > ribbon, the user can see what the changes look like inside the document. > * Better categorization. LibreOffice uses different categorization systems > for menus, toolbars, panes, and even the "Customize..." dialog. All of them > are unsatisfactory, with vague categories and oddities. Office has a single > categorization system and while it also has vagueness and inconsistencies, > it's a bit more logical. > * Visual design. The icon theme and the skin in Office seem much more > modern than our current look. > * Less customization. It's much harder to mess up your installation in MS > Office than in LibO with bad choices. Also, the Office Options screen is > much easier to go through and use. > > The disadvantages: > * Readability. It's much harder to read through the ribbon than a standard > toolbar, as there is no clear path for the eyes to follow. > * Complexity. The ribbon is much more complex than a standard toolbar. > Therefore, it's harder to maintain and to make it adapt to changes. > * Touch-friendliness. The ribbon is not suited to a touch-environment. Even > under "Touch mode", it can be hard to target the commands shown with > smaller icons. > * Nonconformity. The ribbon is alien to all platforms except Windows. Mac > OS requires a menu bar for each application. > * Space usage. The ribbon takes up a ton of space. (Some propose putting it > on the side, yet that could be a problem for people who need to have two > documents side-by-side, e.g. translators.) > * Inconsistencies. While I argued above that the categorization is better, > it certainly has its quirks. For example, some commands cannot be f
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
Hi Keith, On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Keith Curtis wrote: > ... > > Notice that the advantages listed above don't require a ribbon-like UI > and > > can be accomplished using toolbars while retaining all of the advantages > of > > LibreOffice's current UI. Focusing on toolbars also allows a smoother > > change and less development effort. The proposed EasyHacks are a first > > step. > > > > You could quickly prototype any kind of toolbar or ribbon in Python. > > Do you have a better toolbar design? I'd update my wiki page with anything > radically better. For this task, I suggest you not worry about what is > doable and instead what you want. Alright, sure. (I just don't want you to get your hopes up that this will ever be implemented in LibreOffice. As I was told by several LibO devs, the chances for LibO changing toolkits is basically zero to none.) If you need a quality mockup to work from, spiceofdesign made an excellent one on deviantart: http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580?q=gallery%3Aspiceofdesign&qo=2. It's somewhat similar to my own vision for the UI, though I propose several changes: * Have the static toolbar on the same line as the contextual toolbar, as pictured on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Writer-appmenu1.png. This toolbar should only contain Undo, Redo, Save, and Tools items. It should not contain New, Open, Templates, Print, or Share, as those aren't relevant during editing. (In case this proves controversial, MS Office and iWork also hide these in order to keep a focused workflow.) * The mockups on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Toolbars#Mockupsdetail how the Tools menu could evolve. * Each toolbar should have a Hidden Items Menu (HIM) [1] containing the hidden commands of that toolbar (i.e. those set as "hidden" in "Customize..."). The dialog relevant to that toolbar should be among these commands, if it exists. * Dragging commands from the toolbar to the HIM should hide them. Doing the opposite should show them on the toolbar. * Pages should be selectable. [2] Selecting a page would trigger a toolbar with page-related commands. [3] [1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62079 [2] https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=60416 [3] https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=61080 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Mirek M. wrote: > Hi Keith, > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Keith Curtis wrote: > >> ... >> > Notice that the advantages listed above don't require a ribbon-like UI >> and >> > can be accomplished using toolbars while retaining all of the >> advantages of >> > LibreOffice's current UI. Focusing on toolbars also allows a smoother >> > change and less development effort. The proposed EasyHacks are a first >> > step. >> > >> >> You could quickly prototype any kind of toolbar or ribbon in Python. >> >> Do you have a better toolbar design? I'd update my wiki page with anything >> radically better. For this task, I suggest you not worry about what is >> doable and instead what you want. >> > > Alright, sure. (I just don't want you to get your hopes up that this will > ever be implemented in LibreOffice. As I was told by several LibO devs, the > chances for LibO changing toolkits is basically zero to none.) > Everything is a question of resources and efficiency. Anyone who says that there is no chance of LibreOffice changing toolkits are simply saying they can't imagine the resources for it would show up. But there is no need to change LibreOffice's widgets to build a prototype. It depends on what people mean by "implemented." I wouldn't worry about my hopes, I'm happy to get a blank Python toolbar. My biggest concern right now is whether the first tool panel will be able to dock only on the side or also on top. > If you need a quality mockup to work from, spiceofdesign made an excellent > one on deviantart: > http://spiceofdesign.deviantart.com/art/Writer-Concept-351501580?q=gallery%3Aspiceofdesign&qo=2. > It's somewhat similar to my own vision for the UI, though I propose > several changes: > * Have the static toolbar on the same line as the contextual toolbar, as > pictured on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Writer-appmenu1.png. > This toolbar should only contain Undo, Redo, Save, and Tools items. It > should not contain New, Open, Templates, Print, or Share, as those aren't > relevant during editing. (In case this proves controversial, MS Office and > iWork also hide these in order to keep a focused workflow.) > * The mockups on > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Toolbars#Mockupsdetail > how the Tools menu could evolve. > * Each toolbar should have a Hidden Items Menu (HIM) [1] containing the > hidden commands of that toolbar (i.e. those set as "hidden" in > "Customize..."). The dialog relevant to that toolbar should be among these > commands, if it exists. > * Dragging commands from the toolbar to the HIM should hide them. Doing > the opposite should show them on the toolbar. > * Pages should be selectable. [2] Selecting a page would trigger a toolbar > with page-related commands. [3] > > [1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62079 > [2] https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=60416 > [3] https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=61080 > Hmmm, looks different and interesting. It could also be done in Python, except possibly for the buttons on the title bar. However, you could temporarily put them into another toolbar below. If someone creates a new UI, and a way to save and restore the old menus and toolbars, then people could try it out and work through the issues, and just switch back to the old interface when needed. The more thorough and tested the UX proposal, the more likely it will get implemented. Furthermore, once you've got a prototype you like, you won't really care when that happens. I'll put this text on the wiki page as another design. -Keith -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
> I'm wondering if anyone has looked at the UI that Adobe uses for > Buzzword? Dysfunctional webcrap resembling that "Google Apps" garbage. Definitely the wrong way to go, especially in terms of functional concept, but also concerning the GUI. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Experimental new LibreOffice UI
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: > Dysfunctional webcrap resembling that "Google Apps" garbage. I woulnd’t expect to take your point seriously, because your short message only consisted of using harsh words to try to diminish that UI concept, instead of providing a solid rationale ;-) -- Adolfo -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
