Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
Hi Andrew, no offense, but please try to inform yourself before posting. It takes a few more minutes, but it's definitely worth that. There are UI guides for all major platforms, the Ooo wiki has put a good selection together: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/UI_Style_Guides *. So, yes, you can win. All you need is that behaviour differs a bit from platform to platform. Firefox and Thunderbird do this and they feel almost like native applications on Windows, Mac and Gnome (not really on KDE, unfortunately). Of course, Linux has no HIG for itself, but that's because Linux means only the OS kernel which doesn't provide any graphical applications by itself. Astron. * The KDE link there is out of date, it should be: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/HIG -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
There are UI guides for all major platforms, the Ooo wiki has put a good selection together: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/UI_Style_Guides *. So, yes, you can win. All you need is that behaviour differs a bit from platform to platform. thank you for this I think that I will use this when I make my programs. Of course, Linux has no HIG for itself, but that's because Linux means only the OS kernel which doesn't provide any graphical applications by itself. I know that Linux is the Kernal and not an OS by its self. I know all about GUN/Linux and that it is what you add to LInux that makes it an OS. its just a lot easier saying that Linux is an OS. On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:28 AM, Astron heinzless...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Andrew, no offense, but please try to inform yourself before posting. It takes a few more minutes, but it's definitely worth that. There are UI guides for all major platforms, the Ooo wiki has put a good selection together: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/UI_Style_Guides *. So, yes, you can win. All you need is that behaviour differs a bit from platform to platform. Firefox and Thunderbird do this and they feel almost like native applications on Windows, Mac and Gnome (not really on KDE, unfortunately). Of course, Linux has no HIG for itself, but that's because Linux means only the OS kernel which doesn't provide any graphical applications by itself. Astron. * The KDE link there is out of date, it should be: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/HIG -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
lol. Yes, no matter what you do, you can't win =) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 02:15:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout From: android2...@gmail.com To: design@global.libreoffice.org it just seems that you can not win no matter what we do. I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look under Edit when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under Tools. This is very, very annoying to me. when using Firefox depending on weather your using linux or windows the option button art in a different spot as well. it sounds like Linux needs to set some standards while the majority is still developers. for they will adapted more quickly and easily than general users. then again it took my mom for ever to understand that there was no difference between Firefox and IE that both took you to the same internet. I know that there is a big difference between the two but she though that you could only get to my school work through Firefox because thats what I use and deleted all icons of IE so people could not get on it. any way there needs to be a standard or maybe we choose a standard and stick with it. weather that is options in Edit or Tools, or save/discard/cancel, discard/save/cancel. ether way we need to decide and stick with that decision. On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Astron heinzless...@googlemail.comwrote: On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 4:31 PM, nick rundy nru...@hotmail.com wrote: @RGB ES: Yes, you are absolutely right, I was referring to GNOME. I apologize for my oversight. I point out the command button layout issue because of what I have seen, which has already been brought up in the discussion. People tend to develop a rote mentality of clicking an area. I often find myself (because I'm used to working on GNOME) moving to the right corner of dialog windows to click OK only to realize last second (while using LibreOffice) that OK is positioned like it is in KDE/Windows. Of course KDE and MS-Windows users automatically will move to the left to select OK because they are conditioned for it. I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look under Edit when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under Tools. This is very, very annoying to me. In this case, the KDE behaviour is to have a Settings (or Preferences) menu ... Because of that, if the placement of Options _in Linux builds_ were changed to be under Edit, it wouldn't even feel more alien to KDE users. If changing this layout is a complicated matter Coding-Wise or resources would be better allotted to working on other projects (e.g., I'd rather see bug 39080 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080 implemented than the command button layout issue I'm speaking of here), then I urge you guys to make that call. But if its not a big headache and other people feel it is important enough to work on, I think conforming the dialog boxes to the standard button layout of the desktop (i.e., KDE/Windows, Mac/GNOME) adds to the integration and seamlessness of the LibreOffice UI. Ultimately I just intended for my e-mail to bring this issue to people's attention so there's awareness of it and the powers that be can make a decision on it. :) I'd rather see button placement changed than the addition of a draft mode (I like the more physical feel of the standard mode), but that's me. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
On Sun, 2011-07-17 at 02:15 -0400, Andrew Pullins wrote: it just seems that you can not win no matter what we do. I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look under Edit when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under Tools. This is very, very annoying to me. when using Firefox depending on weather your using linux or windows the option button art in a different spot as well. it sounds like Linux needs to set some standards while the majority is still developers. for they will adapted more quickly and easily than general users. then again it took my mom for ever to understand that there was no difference between Firefox and IE that both took you to the same internet. The problem is that are true standards for a GUI. What we call standards are defacto ones based on earlier GUI's, experience, and personal preference. Linux developers are noted for trying different GUI ideas both with different GUI (Gnome, KDE, Unity, Enlightenment, etc.) and the GUI implementation, It is annoying to some and liberating to others because people are experimenting. I know that there is a big difference between the two but she though that you could only get to my school work through Firefox because thats what I use and deleted all icons of IE so people could not get on it. any way there needs to be a standard or maybe we choose a standard and stick with it. weather that is options in Edit or Tools, or save/discard/cancel, discard/save/cancel. ether way we need to decide and stick with that decision. On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Astron heinzless...@googlemail.comwrote: On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 4:31 PM, nick rundy nru...@hotmail.com wrote: @RGB ES: Yes, you are absolutely right, I was referring to GNOME. I apologize for my oversight. I point out the command button layout issue because of what I have seen, which has already been brought up in the discussion. People tend to develop a rote mentality of clicking an area. I often find myself (because I'm used to working on GNOME) moving to the right corner of dialog windows to click OK only to realize last second (while using LibreOffice) that OK is positioned like it is in KDE/Windows. Of course KDE and MS-Windows users automatically will move to the left to select OK because they are conditioned for it. I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look under Edit when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under Tools. This is very, very annoying to me. In this case, the KDE behaviour is to have a Settings (or Preferences) menu ... Because of that, if the placement of Options _in Linux builds_ were changed to be under Edit, it wouldn't even feel more alien to KDE users. If changing this layout is a complicated matter Coding-Wise or resources would be better allotted to working on other projects (e.g., I'd rather see bug 39080 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080 implemented than the command button layout issue I'm speaking of here), then I urge you guys to make that call. But if its not a big headache and other people feel it is important enough to work on, I think conforming the dialog boxes to the standard button layout of the desktop (i.e., KDE/Windows, Mac/GNOME) adds to the integration and seamlessness of the LibreOffice UI. Ultimately I just intended for my e-mail to bring this issue to people's attention so there's awareness of it and the powers that be can make a decision on it. :) I'd rather see button placement changed than the addition of a draft mode (I like the more physical feel of the standard mode), but that's me. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 00:02 -0400, Andrew Pullins wrote: im just saying that maybe there should be some standards. who besides that I do not know. maybe we can choose one of the options that people put in there programs for linux and keep the Widows or mac standards the same so that they do not get confused. or even choose one of theirs. I do not know. I think with Windows and Mac there are MS and Apple speicfications but with Linux we may best to set our standard, may be derived from Windows or Mac so the devs have less rework On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 12:44 PM, planas jsloz...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 2011-07-17 at 02:15 -0400, Andrew Pullins wrote: it just seems that you can not win no matter what we do. I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look under Edit when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under Tools. This is very, very annoying to me. when using Firefox depending on weather your using linux or windows the option button art in a different spot as well. it sounds like Linux needs to set some standards while the majority is still developers. for they will adapted more quickly and easily than general users. then again it took my mom for ever to understand that there was no difference between Firefox and IE that both took you to the same internet. The problem is that are true standards for a GUI. What we call standards are defacto ones based on earlier GUI's, experience, and personal preference. Linux developers are noted for trying different GUI ideas both with different GUI (Gnome, KDE, Unity, Enlightenment, etc.) and the GUI implementation, It is annoying to some and liberating to others because people are experimenting. I know that there is a big difference between the two but she though that you could only get to my school work through Firefox because thats what I use and deleted all icons of IE so people could not get on it. any way there needs to be a standard or maybe we choose a standard and stick with it. weather that is options in Edit or Tools, or save/discard/cancel, discard/save/cancel. ether way we need to decide and stick with that decision. On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Astron heinzless...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 4:31 PM, nick rundy nru...@hotmail.com wrote: @RGB ES: Yes, you are absolutely right, I was referring to GNOME. I apologize for my oversight. I point out the command button layout issue because of what I have seen, which has already been brought up in the discussion. People tend to develop a rote mentality of clicking an area. I often find myself (because I'm used to working on GNOME) moving to the right corner of dialog windows to click OK only to realize last second (while using LibreOffice) that OK is positioned like it is in KDE/Windows. Of course KDE and MS-Windows users automatically will move to the left to select OK because they are conditioned for it. I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look under Edit when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under Tools. This is very, very annoying to me. In this case, the KDE behaviour is to have a Settings (or Preferences) menu ... Because of that, if the placement of Options _in Linux builds_ were changed to be under Edit, it wouldn't even feel more alien to KDE users. If changing this layout is a complicated matter Coding-Wise or resources would be better allotted to working on other projects (e.g., I'd rather see bug 39080 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080 implemented than the command button layout issue I'm speaking of here), then I urge you guys to make that call. But if its not a big headache and other people feel it is important enough to work on, I think conforming the dialog boxes to the standard button layout of the desktop (i.e., KDE/Windows, Mac/GNOME) adds to the integration and seamlessness of the LibreOffice UI. Ultimately I just intended for my e-mail to bring this issue to people's attention so there's awareness of it and the powers that be can make a decision on it. :) I'd rather see button placement changed than the addition of a draft mode (I like the more physical feel of the standard mode), but that's me. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
I agree with what you're saying, but I think people tend to be at least somewhat more cautious in an office program and after one or two mishaps with the okay button (save all before closing, anyone?) people learn. We shouldn't really be trying to protect the user from themselves, and most seem to get along fine the way it is (verbs anyway, not that I disagree with this). On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Andrew Pullins android2...@gmail.comwrote: say what you want about what order of the buttons but the more important thing is weather the user understands what the buttons mean. Lukas Mathis writes an exigent blog(ignorethecode.net) about UI and UX (even though he does not call it UX) and what to and not to do when making your UI's. He wrote a blog post http://ignorethecode.net/blognobody-reads/ http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2008/10/31/nobody-reads/ about how people do not read dialog boxes. He says that most people just click ok because it what they always click and nothing bad happens. he says to use verbs instead of using ok and cancel use save and discard. Now I can see that we do this as nick has given the examples of what the order each OS. I just thought that this was a grate blog and that I would tell people about it. there are many other useful tips on there that would help with making LibreOffice. ignore the code On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Christopher Lee gunboatdeba...@gmail.comwrote: We shouldn't forget that LibreOffice is a cross-platform program and that we may also want to consider that people will expect similar behavior from the program no matter where they're running it. On the other hand, the order of the buttons really doesn't seem like it would be hard to implement. Maybe obey system defaults and have an option to rearrange? -- Christopher Lee Executive Director Champion Debate On Friday, July 15, 2011 at 9:03 PM, nick rundy wrote: LibreOffice presently uses a Microsoft Windows command button layout in its Dialog windows even when installed on a Linux distribution. Linux installations of LibreOffice should conform with the command button layout that is standard with virtually all other linux applications. For example, MS Windows displays OK Cancel. Linux displays Cancel OK. I've uploaded some screenshots to illustrate what I'm describing ( http://imgur.com/a/Tmmn1#X7ym4). Notice how the screen shots conform with how MS Windows lays out its command buttons instead of how Linux applications display them? MS Windows: Save Discard CancelGNU-Linux: Cancel Discard Save MS Windows: OK Cancel Help ResetGNU-Linux: Reset Help Cancel OK -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org (mailto: design+h...@global.libreoffice.org) Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Christopher Lee Executive Director Champion Debate Camp Co-Captain Thomas Jefferson Policy Debate Team --The Gunboat Debater-- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
Hi Christopher, hi Nick! Nick, thanks for your feedback - and I don't know whether this helps or not, but it is a known issue for some years now. Unfortunately, changing that (in a way that it makes real sense) requires to use something called Layout Manager, so that we can switch button orders depending on the platform. At least, I've documented that some time ago in the Design Team's What We Need list: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off/WhatWeNeed#LibreOffice_Technical_Basis The last time I talked about that with some developers was at the Fosdem in February - the work seems a bit stalled at the moment (or let's say: nobody actively picked that topic). So if anybody wants to work on / advertise that topic - highly appreciated. Am Freitag, den 15.07.2011, 21:06 -0400 schrieb Christopher Lee: We shouldn't forget that LibreOffice is a cross-platform program and that we may also want to consider that people will expect similar behavior from the program no matter where they're running it. On the other hand, the order of the buttons really doesn't seem like it would be hard to implement. Maybe obey system defaults and have an option to rearrange? Christopher, I noticed several times that you wrote something like doesn't seem ... hard to implement where it is - in fact - hard work. So although I don't know if you are a developer working on LibreOffice (by the way, I'm not a programmer), we should ask on the dev list for such effort estimations. I this recent case, it's almost no problem to change the button order for one dialog - but the issue is that we do have hundreds of them hard-coded. Cheers, Christoph -- Christopher Lee Executive Director Champion Debate On Friday, July 15, 2011 at 9:03 PM, nick rundy wrote: LibreOffice presently uses a Microsoft Windows command button layout in its Dialog windows even when installed on a Linux distribution. Linux installations of LibreOffice should conform with the command button layout that is standard with virtually all other linux applications. For example, MS Windows displays OK Cancel. Linux displays Cancel OK. I've uploaded some screenshots to illustrate what I'm describing (http://imgur.com/a/Tmmn1#X7ym4). Notice how the screen shots conform with how MS Windows lays out its command buttons instead of how Linux applications display them? MS Windows: Save Discard CancelGNU-Linux: Cancel Discard Save MS Windows: OK Cancel Help ResetGNU-Linux: Reset Help Cancel OK -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org (mailto:design+h...@global.libreoffice.org) Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout
@RGB ES: Yes, you are absolutely right, I was referring to GNOME. I apologize for my oversight. I point out the command button layout issue because of what I have seen, which has already been brought up in the discussion. People tend to develop a rote mentality of clicking an area. I often find myself (because I'm used to working on GNOME) moving to the right corner of dialog windows to click OK only to realize last second (while using LibreOffice) that OK is positioned like it is in KDE/Windows. Of course KDE and MS-Windows users automatically will move to the left to select OK because they are conditioned for it. If changing this layout is a complicated matter Coding-Wise or resources would be better allotted to working on other projects (e.g., I'd rather see bug 39080 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080 implemented than the command button layout issue I'm speaking of here), then I urge you guys to make that call. But if its not a big headache and other people feel it is important enough to work on, I think conforming the dialog boxes to the standard button layout of the desktop (i.e., KDE/Windows, Mac/GNOME) adds to the integration and seamlessness of the LibreOffice UI. Ultimately I just intended for my e-mail to bring this issue to people's attention so there's awareness of it and the powers that be can make a decision on it. :) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 13:27:59 +0200 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard Command Button Layout From: rgb.m...@gmail.com To: design@global.libreoffice.org 2011/7/16 nick rundy nru...@hotmail.com: LibreOffice presently uses a Microsoft Windows command button layout in its Dialog windows even when installed on a Linux distribution. Linux installations of LibreOffice should conform with the command button layout that is standard with virtually all other linux applications. For example, MS Windows displays OK Cancel. Linux displays Cancel OK. I've uploaded some screenshots to illustrate what I'm describing (http://imgur.com/a/Tmmn1#X7ym4). Notice how the screen shots conform with how MS Windows lays out its command buttons instead of how Linux applications display them? MS Windows:Save Discard CancelGNU-Linux: Cancel Discard Save MS Windows: OK Cancel Help ResetGNU-Linux:Reset Help Cancel OK You are talking about gnome, don't you? Other desktop environments have different layouts so there is no GNU/Linux standard. As an example, KDE config dialogues have: [Help], Predefined, [Undo], (space), Accept, Apply, Cancel (those between square brackets are not always present) Unless you build a specific UI for each DE available (gnome, kde, xfce, lxde, e17...), you will always annoy someone! ;) Please, remember that the Linux world do not end at Ubuntu's gnome version. Cheers Ricardo -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
