Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-15
Announcement 30 hours before the session is not announcement in advance. People - who do not work on LibreOffice on a daily basis and may have all sorts of things going on in their life - cannot be expected to reply, let alone make themselves available, at 30-hours' notice. If it were, say, a week - then you could say there's notice in advance. Also, again, there's a difference between one issue by a person coming up for discussion, and several, constituting most of the session. As for the two topics - the shorthand minutes entries about them suggest that the two issues were not discussed seriously, IMNSHO. At any rate, I commented on the bug pages to address both new comments and the relevant parts of the session minutes. Eyal On 16/02/2023 9:07, Heiko Tietze wrote: the meeting agenda is always announced in advance. This time it was on Wednesday what I assume to be possible for you. You could have sent a notice to postpone a topic. Flagging tickets as to-be-discussed sounds easy but adds noise to the report and wouldn't solve your problem. For the two topics from yesterday I think one was unanimously resolved/NAB and the other considered to not benefit the modification. Please don't understand input from UX as a gatekeeper to the development, you are free to reopen tickets and seek for response from other people. Cheers, Heiko On 15.02.23 22:41, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Heiko, you again scheduled bugs of mine for a discussion without taking a moment to check whether I can join the meeting. I asked you not to do that and I'm asking you again. This is unfair, especially after I've explicitly asked that you not do that. The treatment of these bugs is usually entirely different based on whether I attend the session or not. What seems to happen when I'm not there is that the case for the issue is not made seriously, and thus objections or claims which I would probably be able to convincingly rebut or disprove are stated and accepted with no retort or objection. Now, I won't deny that this is not something specific to bugs I file: A user who does not have design committee participant support from the get-go, and who does not attend a committee session, will often not have any participant serve as the advocate or champion for that bug / that user - and may not get a "fair shake" in the evaluation of their bug. The difference in my case that you know that I can occasionally - but not always nor most times - attend. And session agendae are announced just a single day in advance, and not on the relevant bug pages - so, not enough time for me to notice. Finally, it is usually the case that multiple bugs I have filed are placed on the agenda for the same session, i.e. there are "Eyal's filings sessions", which are scheduled without me being able to react. This is quite inappropriate and I again ask that you stop doing that. Either ping me before scheduling my filings, or make the announcement a good number of days in advance. Also, and for the benefit of other bug filers, it would not be a bad idea to post a comment on the pages of bugs which are about to come up in committee, about the upcoming committee session. Eyal On 15/02/2023 22:21, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: John, Cor, Heiko Comments: Stuart, John, Pedro, Rafael Tickets/Topics * Styles Preview should be able to show a grid of list styles (Tabbed UI) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153525 + a "More..." button could open the Stylist in the sidebar (Stuart, Heiko) + could be a small expander button on the lower right edge (Cor) + strong support for a Tabbed NB in general and completely implemented features in particular (John, Pedro, Rafael) + take the full space is easy to achieve, expanding into a list might a bit more difficult => do it * Most bundled page styles are nonsensical and/or redundant + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153534 + every single page style has a use case (Cor) + never had any problems with the list of page styles (John) + the (small) list can also be filtered (Heiko) => resolve WF/NAB * Style organizer's "Next style"'s function not clear to user + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153600 + label and help is clear (John) + labeling it "Next paragraph style" adds no information and it's reasonably clear what the dialog/label is talking about (Cor) => resolve WF/NAB * Editing:- Feature Request "go to - special" feature needed + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149933 + introduce function to search for special content like blanks, constants etc. sounds like a good idea (Cor) + would be a comfortable shortcut for many searches (Heiko) + alternatively we could have a special entry in the sidebar + would be inconsistent as blank evaluates data while the exis
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-15
Hi Eyal, the meeting agenda is always announced in advance. This time it was on Wednesday what I assume to be possible for you. You could have sent a notice to postpone a topic. Flagging tickets as to-be-discussed sounds easy but adds noise to the report and wouldn't solve your problem. For the two topics from yesterday I think one was unanimously resolved/NAB and the other considered to not benefit the modification. Please don't understand input from UX as a gatekeeper to the development, you are free to reopen tickets and seek for response from other people. Cheers, Heiko On 15.02.23 22:41, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Heiko, you again scheduled bugs of mine for a discussion without taking a moment to check whether I can join the meeting. I asked you not to do that and I'm asking you again. This is unfair, especially after I've explicitly asked that you not do that. The treatment of these bugs is usually entirely different based on whether I attend the session or not. What seems to happen when I'm not there is that the case for the issue is not made seriously, and thus objections or claims which I would probably be able to convincingly rebut or disprove are stated and accepted with no retort or objection. Now, I won't deny that this is not something specific to bugs I file: A user who does not have design committee participant support from the get-go, and who does not attend a committee session, will often not have any participant serve as the advocate or champion for that bug / that user - and may not get a "fair shake" in the evaluation of their bug. The difference in my case that you know that I can occasionally - but not always nor most times - attend. And session agendae are announced just a single day in advance, and not on the relevant bug pages - so, not enough time for me to notice. Finally, it is usually the case that multiple bugs I have filed are placed on the agenda for the same session, i.e. there are "Eyal's filings sessions", which are scheduled without me being able to react. This is quite inappropriate and I again ask that you stop doing that. Either ping me before scheduling my filings, or make the announcement a good number of days in advance. Also, and for the benefit of other bug filers, it would not be a bad idea to post a comment on the pages of bugs which are about to come up in committee, about the upcoming committee session. Eyal On 15/02/2023 22:21, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: John, Cor, Heiko Comments: Stuart, John, Pedro, Rafael Tickets/Topics * Styles Preview should be able to show a grid of list styles (Tabbed UI) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153525 + a "More..." button could open the Stylist in the sidebar (Stuart, Heiko) + could be a small expander button on the lower right edge (Cor) + strong support for a Tabbed NB in general and completely implemented features in particular (John, Pedro, Rafael) + take the full space is easy to achieve, expanding into a list might a bit more difficult => do it * Most bundled page styles are nonsensical and/or redundant + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153534 + every single page style has a use case (Cor) + never had any problems with the list of page styles (John) + the (small) list can also be filtered (Heiko) => resolve WF/NAB * Style organizer's "Next style"'s function not clear to user + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153600 + label and help is clear (John) + labeling it "Next paragraph style" adds no information and it's reasonably clear what the dialog/label is talking about (Cor) => resolve WF/NAB * Editing:- Feature Request "go to - special" feature needed + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149933 + introduce function to search for special content like blanks, constants etc. sounds like a good idea (Cor) + would be a comfortable shortcut for many searches (Heiko) + alternatively we could have a special entry in the sidebar + would be inconsistent as blank evaluates data while the existing Navigator options detect model content (Cor) => do it * Change "heading level" to "outline level" + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152605 + see comment 14 for (tentatively accepted) proposal + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153499 + use index level for index entry outlines + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153596 + see also ToC dialog => consistency in naming is good, go for it * Permit "No User Input" as a data validation which would then permit filter sorting + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149497 + reasonable request + (Standard/Auto-) Filter work on protected sheets + Sorting should work too, at least optional (Cor) +
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-15
I was making a point about procedure and conduct, but - I'll bite :-) * I use the term "bug" because we use "bugzilla" where everything is a "bug". I was referring to issues more generally - either bugs or RFEs. * The question whether something is a proper bug or an RFE is often up for debate (i.e. "does this _have_ to change or would it only be _better_if this changed"). * You're assuming that issues discussed in design committee sessions take into account what's said on the bug page. That is often not the case. Session participants often did not read the bug page when it comes up for discussion, or only skimmed it, or only read the first comment. That is how one often finds comments in the minutes which are, in fact, already addressed on the bug page. * When a bug/issue is missing a significant piece of information, say not addressing a major likely downside - that may be because of lack of rigor by the reporter; or because they had failed to notice such a downside; or possibly because the downside is actually unlikely (or not a downside), and was perceived only due to a misunderstanding / miscommunication. * Issue reporters should absolutely not be expected to demonstrate an understanding of how and why the current state of affairs exists. This typically (not always) helps when reporting a bug or RFE, but it perfectly acceptable to file issues based solely on user experience and/or common-sense reasoning, without getting inside the head of whoever set the current state of affairs. On 16/02/2023 1:39, toki wrote: On 15/02/2023 21:41, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: objections or claims which I would probably be able to convincingly rebut or disprove are stated and accepted with no retort or objection. An RFE masquerading as a bug report has to stand on its own merits. It has to provide a number of datapoints: * What the benefits of the enhancement are; * What the downsides of the enhancement are; * How to minimize the negative impact of those downsides; * How to minimize the negative impact of the enhancement; * Reasons why the enhancement would be declined; ** Explain why the reasons for declining the enhancement are insufficient to warrant doing so; * Present multiple use-cases showing how the enhancement aids usage; * Provide alternative choices of action to attain the desired outcome(s) that the RFE requests; * Demonstrate an understanding of how and why the current framework exists; jonathon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-15
On 15/02/2023 21:41, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: objections or claims which I would probably be able to convincingly rebut or disprove are stated and accepted with no retort or objection. An RFE masquerading as a bug report has to stand on its own merits. It has to provide a number of datapoints: * What the benefits of the enhancement are; * What the downsides of the enhancement are; * How to minimize the negative impact of those downsides; * How to minimize the negative impact of the enhancement; * Reasons why the enhancement would be declined; ** Explain why the reasons for declining the enhancement are insufficient to warrant doing so; * Present multiple use-cases showing how the enhancement aids usage; * Provide alternative choices of action to attain the desired outcome(s) that the RFE requests; * Demonstrate an understanding of how and why the current framework exists; jonathon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2023-Feb-15
Heiko, you again scheduled bugs of mine for a discussion without taking a moment to check whether I can join the meeting. I asked you not to do that and I'm asking you again. This is unfair, especially after I've explicitly asked that you not do that. The treatment of these bugs is usually entirely different based on whether I attend the session or not. What seems to happen when I'm not there is that the case for the issue is not made seriously, and thus objections or claims which I would probably be able to convincingly rebut or disprove are stated and accepted with no retort or objection. Now, I won't deny that this is not something specific to bugs I file: A user who does not have design committee participant support from the get-go, and who does not attend a committee session, will often not have any participant serve as the advocate or champion for that bug / that user - and may not get a "fair shake" in the evaluation of their bug. The difference in my case that you know that I can occasionally - but not always nor most times - attend. And session agendae are announced just a single day in advance, and not on the relevant bug pages - so, not enough time for me to notice. Finally, it is usually the case that multiple bugs I have filed are placed on the agenda for the same session, i.e. there are "Eyal's filings sessions", which are scheduled without me being able to react. This is quite inappropriate and I again ask that you stop doing that. Either ping me before scheduling my filings, or make the announcement a good number of days in advance. Also, and for the benefit of other bug filers, it would not be a bad idea to post a comment on the pages of bugs which are about to come up in committee, about the upcoming committee session. Eyal On 15/02/2023 22:21, Heiko Tietze wrote: Present: John, Cor, Heiko Comments: Stuart, John, Pedro, Rafael Tickets/Topics * Styles Preview should be able to show a grid of list styles (Tabbed UI) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153525 + a "More..." button could open the Stylist in the sidebar (Stuart, Heiko) + could be a small expander button on the lower right edge (Cor) + strong support for a Tabbed NB in general and completely implemented features in particular (John, Pedro, Rafael) + take the full space is easy to achieve, expanding into a list might a bit more difficult => do it * Most bundled page styles are nonsensical and/or redundant + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153534 + every single page style has a use case (Cor) + never had any problems with the list of page styles (John) + the (small) list can also be filtered (Heiko) => resolve WF/NAB * Style organizer's "Next style"'s function not clear to user + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153600 + label and help is clear (John) + labeling it "Next paragraph style" adds no information and it's reasonably clear what the dialog/label is talking about (Cor) => resolve WF/NAB * Editing:- Feature Request "go to - special" feature needed + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149933 + introduce function to search for special content like blanks, constants etc. sounds like a good idea (Cor) + would be a comfortable shortcut for many searches (Heiko) + alternatively we could have a special entry in the sidebar + would be inconsistent as blank evaluates data while the existing Navigator options detect model content (Cor) => do it * Change "heading level" to "outline level" + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152605 + see comment 14 for (tentatively accepted) proposal + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153499 + use index level for index entry outlines + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153596 + see also ToC dialog => consistency in naming is good, go for it * Permit "No User Input" as a data validation which would then permit filter sorting + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149497 + reasonable request + (Standard/Auto-) Filter work on protected sheets + Sorting should work too, at least optional (Cor) + afraid of data integrity issues aka references to a certain cell that changes after sorting (Heiko) + option should not be at data validation but at the protect sheet dialog among the other exceptions (Heiko) + has the drawback that it applies to the whole sheet (Cor) => allow users to permit sorting -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Polic
