[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@Michael... #609

That illustrates my point clearly on why this whole left-right thing
should be theme-driven. Thanks :D

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Michael Gilbert]

can we at least get some kind of confirmation that it is going to be
"easy" to switch the buttons back to normal?  gconf is great, but it
really isn't viable for most of ubuntu's users (the point-and-clickers).

also can we get a confirmation that the buttons will continue to look
professional on the right?  currently if you switch them to the right
and fix their order (min,max,close), most themes just look bad since the
button coloring and fading is designed for the expected order when on
the left.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pako]

Let's say that Ubuntu wants to attract some of the Mac users, not just
Windows users. In Ubuntu 10.04 they can find both themes that will match
their needs. These themes are: Light theme (Left Side) and Human and
Dust themes (Right Side) + thousands of themes on gnome-look.org. What
so unclear?

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

Taken from another website, this post below illustrates many of things
I've said; so while the words below are not mine, their sentiment most
certainly is...along with many, many, many other people's sentiment as
well.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/ubuntu-windo...
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23899/
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1422422
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1430585
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1439536
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light...
http://havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/
http://betterubuntu.org/
http://blog.daviey.com/blogroll/anything-but-th...
http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/its-...
http://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2010/03/03/the...
http://moonlitrants.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/he...
http://kyleabaker.com/2010/03/09/ubuntu-10-04s-...
http://piestar.net/2010/03/04/ubuntu-rebrand/
http://lifehacker.com/5500577/move-ubuntus-wind...

You're right, I'm the only one that disagrees with it.

All sarcasm aside, lets talk about community. You say the "vast
majority" has not voiced their opinion. So this is the only way things
get decided upon? We're waiting for this vast majority from the unknown
to vote in some unknown manner for it to be taken seriously? I guess the
community from the official ubuntu forums, brainstorm and launchpad
don't actually count then. Someone should have told us before we voiced
our opinion that our voice does not matter before asking us to voice our
opinion (which Mark did in the bug).

You say Canonical's target audience is the novice user who is new to
computers. Is this the vast majority you speak of? People who downloaded
and installed ubuntu on their computer but do not take part in the
forums or launchpad or brainstorm to voice their opinion? So the rest of
us are just free marketing and bug fixing but have no say in how the OS
develops?

I think something is missing here because it really doesn't make sense
to me. A company focus's on the user who takes no part in the community
while ignoring the active community.

moving on...

It's a bad decision because:

#1 Nobody but mac users are used to it. 90% of the rest of the world are
used to it being on the right.

#2 There has been ZERO explanations as to why this needs to be done.
There is no benefit. There is no advantage. There is only upset and
agnostic users. The only excuse has been "we might put something on the
right". PUT IT ON THE LEFT!

#3 LTS. We are stuck with this half-design for the next 3 years.

#4 Zero community input taken into consideration. I'll say zero, because
if I mention Mark asked for input from the community and the majority
(see above) yelled loud and clear that they were against it and the
decision was still made in favor, then that makes the decision look much
worse.

#5 major UI change 2 weeks after a UI freeze... in an LTS

I'm done with this issue. I'm really tired of trying to explain this on
deaf ears. The powers that be just don't understand what pissing off
your core users really means. Yes, WE are your core users. We are the
ones spending our time, money and energy using, advocating, fixing and
improving your OS just because we like it and the community. This "vast
majority" of users you speak of who do not participate who give nothing
back but arbitrary numbers should not take precedence over the
satisfaction of your core users.

This all said, I am a power user and will continue to configure the OS I
spend so much time, money and energy on improving upon to fit my needs.
I will continue more testing of my family and customers to see if I will
need to do further customizing for them as well. If it weren't for this
community I would jump ship. There is no other place like it.

Maybe Canonical should stop taking this for granted.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bernhard]

Yann, there was a post about this yesterday, check above. Dust buttons
are supposed to go back to right.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pako]

Pyramid, Piko? Do you mean Pico? Haha for the very first time you made
me LOL. Nothing scholli won, he loose the dust theme left layout, so
make a donation for developer who made this change especially for you.
;)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Omer Akram]

** Changed in: metacity (Ubuntu)
   Status: Confirmed => Invalid

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Michael Kofler]

Is it only me who finds the form of the minimize and maximize icons
irritating? The first thing I do after (re-)installing Ubuntu is
deleting the lower panel and adding the windows list to the upper panel.
Thus, the minimize button (arrow down) no longer points to the window
list. More than once I wrongly clicked on the maximize button (arrow up)
when I wanted to minimize the window.

Mac OS X uses the symbols - and +, which can't be confused.

Another option would be a small and a large rectangle.

(I won't discuss the stupidity of window button placement here, as this
already has been done in abundance here. The whole discussion is a clear
sign that fundamental GUI changes should be made much earlier in the
development process ...)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Yann]

@Mark:

For Ambiance/Radiance new themes... why not. But concerning other
themes, for instance Dust, what will be the final position?

When side have been made theme dependant a few days ago, old themes came
back to their right side origins... Only new defaults were left.

Yesterday, after updates, Dust become left sided... Maybe other themes
are also affected, I didn't try them all?

So my last questions:
-Is this an error for Dust that will be corrected?
-If this is not a mistake, will left side propagate to all themes before 
release? If a subset of proposed themes will go left, can we have a list?

IMO, old themes should remain right... new position should come with new
themes only: This would permit to those who prefer their current
environment to keep it unchanged if they find new defaults not
convenient.

Maybe Ubuntu is not a democraty... but to hurt users with no easy
alternative, this would be dictatorial: The problem you'll face is I
dont't think dictatorial attitude in a free software world can last for
long!?

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Z47isthenew42]

@ Mark.  Also, what are these ideas you have?  I find it hard to believe
you have ideas when you have not even named one.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Z47isthenew42]

@ Mark.  Ignoring your users is not the way to go.  Even when I'm on
Windows, I rarely use Microsoft Window after the ribbon was introduced
in 2007.  In fact, I came to Ubuntu after I got annoyed with Windows
Vista.  When the vast majority of users want the window control buttons
on the right, you should listen to them.  Looks like I'm going to have
to find a new distro.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Kyle Jones]

Well thanks. I've already experienced the reaction of a novice user who
had the window buttons unexpectedly switch around on them. They loved it
about as much as much as they would a hole in the head. Their annoyance
turned into my annoyance.

So thanks again. I'll be looking forward to hearing all of the
bellyaching and having to fix it for them.

Thanks for fixing what wasn't broken. Damnit.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[nomnex]

On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 23:14 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> I agree that having the "close" button inset was visually more
> interesting. But in the end, the view that carried the day was that
> having the close button in the place where it moves around the least
> (the corner) was most valuable. The rest followed from there.
> 
> Mark

I was a partisan of the "no change" along the thread (my English is
perfectible, e.g. some possible confusion between layout and l/r side of
the buttons in my previous posts).

Since the change is going to happen anyway, I would rather now lean
toward a *radical* change, as formally proposed by the UI team & Mark
(the very same I did not like in the current 10.04 beta1)

The way Mark is closing the bug is reasonable. he can make space on the
right without too much offending people's habits. The downside is the
loss of originality of the former (or current) theme.

This message might sound contradictory, but I was ready to "bit the
bullet" using the default theme for 6 months over. To see for myself if,
at last, I would not finally come to like the unusual buttons position?

In a way, Mark's final answer removes the emotional side I had for this
bug. It was nice reading so much feedback though (aside from the noise
of "Pako" and "Pyramid" along the thread)
nomnex

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[cornbread]

BUT... Apple's close button doesn't "close an application"


-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 1, 2010 2:07 PM, Jonathan Carter  wrote: 

@Dag (#569)


Well, as Mark pointed out before, we really need more data before any

real solid good choices can be made.


Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether buttons should be ordered

according to whether they are most desctructive, or most used.

Personally, I spend more clicks on closing windows than minimizing and

maximizing or restoring them. I'm willing to bet that if if do a study,

you'll find that:


a. Most people also close windows more than any of the other window
functions on the title bar

b. Most users would prefer having the most used actions from LTR if they
are a LTR user


Additionally, if a user clicks on the close button accidentally, most

software will confirm the closing of the window if it's a potentially

destructive close. If not, it's a bug in that software.


I think this is one of those cases where Apple got it right, and I'm

glad that Canonical decided to make this change before release.


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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

# 588 ... and it's not Piko, but Pako

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[running_rabbit07]

@ pyramid

F.U.D.?  Not.  Don't bend my words with your sarcasm. Trade Secrets are
ideas, not patents. Once their idea is out in the light, then anyone
will be able to copy it.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

@ pYramid:

I didn't win, so my argument about unique has gone. I liked the initial
'order' more, because IT was so unique and you had to think a little bit
before you want close the windows really! ... meanwhile you looked for
the red point.

Your last comment was "sweet". "Dude, what is written on my back?",
"Sweet". :-D

@ Mark:

Thank you for ALL. The opposite will always exist... but don't look
back, always forward, don't rest. This button-issue will clam with time
and this thematic will go to the forgotten.

Bye

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@running...

Stop with the F.U.D.

"trade secrets" in Open Source? If that's the case, boy does Debian have
a bone to pick.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[running_rabbit07]

I like it. I don't see why people flame such a small change.

@ Oli, umm he has plans for the right side. Ever heard of "trade
secrets"? Sounds logical enough to me.

@ Mark,

 "Thank you!"

Cheers,
Ronnie

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Appier]

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 17:18:05 -0400, Jeremy Bicha 
wrote:

> Aigars, the left-side change was not meant to affect the other themes,
> that was a bug which has since been fixed. You can keep using your
> right-side Human theme for Lucid.

Let me get this clear, the "move all the buttons to the left in all of the  
themes" was a different bug all along? I guess I missed that one... My  
principal objection all along was the "forced" move to the left--not a  
good idea.  However, if the right-hand themes are still available without  
work-arounds, this becomes even easier to fix for our less "tech savvy"  
users.  Just set to the old "Human" theme.  I like the option to have the  
left-handed themes, just not to have people I support be forced to use  
them or have to use the gconf-editor to make the other themes look OK.

Mark, I applaud the order for the left-handed buttons that you chose.  It  
makes support for the new configuration easier

Thank you for all you do for the community!

Mark Appier

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 01/04/10 22:20, Dag Odenhall wrote:
> @Jonathan You make a good argument. I eagerly await how it will look in
> action, as I thought the maximize,minimize,close setup looked quite
> nice. In my mind, close,minimize,maximize looks less nice, but I could
> be wrong.
>   

I agree that having the "close" button inset was visually more
interesting. But in the end, the view that carried the day was that
having the close button in the place where it moves around the least
(the corner) was most valuable. The rest followed from there.

Mark

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Frits Jalvingh]

Irritating your users with such a silly and currently /completely
useless/ change is not innovation- it is dumb. Not listening to your
users is not very bright either. Provide something useful together with
such a change, not long after.

By itself this is not a big problem - thank god we have a way to revert
this sillyness. It's just beyond pathetic that we have to do so under
the guise of "innovation".

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Oli]

@ Mark Shuttleworth

You sure that's not an April Fools joke wrapped in another one? I mean
it certain looks like an extended prank; switching the buttons around
and letting us think you'd leave it in an LTS just as the world was
starting to take Ubuntu and Linux seriously...

And I've still not seen a logical argument put forward for why the
buttons should be like this. Argl.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

http://havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@scholli

YEAH!! YOU WIN!!! *** YOU *** get a cookie...and tons of people leaving.
I've said my opinion. Others have said theirs, now time will indeed
tell. What will you say when the mass exodus AWAY from Ubuntu happens?
Ohh yes, you and Piko will say how wrong everyone else is.. and
you'll wonder why people left.

I'll give you a clue, while the buttons may be the final straw that
broke the camel's back, the elitist attitudes of Ubuntu developers is
the real cause.

You have fun with that now. ya hear ;)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Tiago Silva]

These guys don't know what they are doing. Usability experts... my ass.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Tom Jaeger]

Here's an idea:  Why not make the upper right hand corner of each window
an 'activity corner' in gnome 3?

On 04/01/2010 02:12 PM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the
> right of the window title bar. We have some ideas, and others are
> already springing up in the community. We welcome participation on the
> Ayatana list, where those can play out. This will be a fruitful topic
> for the design track at UDS in Brussels in May.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

@ Pyramid:

:-D Radical decisions from a heart-broken man. I look forward... send me
a postcard if I was right. Cheers

PD: Don't forget "sudo"; better is the partition-manager from the new
Live-CD. ;)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Aigars Mahinovs]

** Description changed:

  === Master Bug ===
  (As per the design team's request)
  All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
  All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
one.
  
  === Desire ===
  "Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
(menu - title - minimize, maximize close)."
  
   Workaround 
- To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
+ 1. Only new themes, such as Ambiance and Radiance will have buttons on the 
left by default. You can continue using old themes, such as Human, in Lucid and 
those themes will continue to have buttons on the right side (according to 
http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/577 ). It is even possible to 
switch to Human theme and then 'Customize' it to use all the elements from 
Radiance theme, but the button layout will stay on the right.
+ 
+ 2. To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
  $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
  
   Responses 
  Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17
  http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 ("Those pesky buttons")
  http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
interview starting at 39:10)
  
  Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 
onwards
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 ("Final decree"; 
close-min-max ordering)
  
  Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24
  http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24)
  
  === Code of Conduct ===
  To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@scholli, since you're a gambling person, I need to open a casino. Odds
are 100% in the house's favor (me) on not going back to Ubuntu.

You've never seen an rm -rf /* done so fast in your life.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Paul Sladen]

** Description changed:

  === Master Bug ===
  (As per the design team's request)
  All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
  All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
one.
  
  === Desire ===
  "Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
(menu - title - minimize, maximize close)."
  
   Workaround 
  To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
  $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
  
   Responses 
  Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17
  http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 ("Those pesky buttons")
  http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
interview starting at 39:10)
  
  Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 
onwards
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503
- https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 ("Final decree"; 
close-min-max ordering)
+ http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 ("Final decree"; 
close-min-max ordering)
  
  Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24
  http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24)
  
  === Code of Conduct ===
  To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Samuel Buffet]

To refuse change because "it's different" is BAD.
To change only because "it's different" is BAD.

Anyway, good decision comes from good rationale (except maybe in
casinos).

Where's the rationale here ? None is explained.
Where's the benefit here ? None is explained.

What's the risk ? The risk is to force a change in user's habits without
visible reasons. He should not appreciate even if he'll get use to with
time.

Even if it's far from being a big deal it really looks like a bad decision.
I love Ubuntu and its community and thank all the teams (devs, designers, 
managers ...) providing to the community this wonderful desktop.


So after all, the design team may really have a killer idea to use that vacuum 
on the right.

Time will say, but waiting for explanation/rationale on that subject it
will be (for me) nothing more than a bad decision.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Paul Sladen]

** Description changed:

  === Master Bug ===
  (As per the design team's request)
  All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug.
  All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a 
one.
  
  === Desire ===
  "Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also 
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side 
(menu - title - minimize, maximize close)."
  
   Workaround 
  To revert to old layout, run in a terminal:
  $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string 
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
  
   Responses 
  Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17
  http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 ("Those pesky buttons")
  http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute 
interview starting at 39:10)
  
  Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 
onwards
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469
  http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503
+ https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/564 ("Final decree"; 
close-min-max ordering)
  
  Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24
  http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24)
  
  === Code of Conduct ===
  To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code 
of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Rich Wales]

I still say that placement of the buttons on the left is wrong.

But if you absolutely insist on doing this, there needs to be a user-
visible option in the preferences GUI to allow someone to reposition the
buttons via a check-box.  Expecting people to launch gconf-editor from
the "Run Application" window and type an arcane configuration string is
not at all user-friendly.  Expecting people to find out that this is
what they need to do (such as by searching the bug reports or the online
help facility) is user-hostile.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[J . Ó Broin]

It's too bad, I was really liking the Maximize, Minimize, Close order. But I 
guess I was in the minority on that one.
Having the Close button farther in from the edge gave me that extra 
split-second to decide if I was really done using a window.
Ah well, at least it's easy to change. :)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

not a own face finally, but surely a good marketing-gag :)

The light-theme fits to the modern Icons very well and the hardest bugs
has gone...  now it's only fine-tuning. The new Indicators on Panel and
only the better Software-Center makes Ubuntu to the best choose for the
next generation-folks. For me it's a big step forward... gratulation.

But like always... time will tell...

@Pyramid: I am sure you will come back. Trust me.. all indicates for it.
;)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Dag Odenhall]

@Jonathan You make a good argument. I eagerly await how it will look in
action, as I thought the maximize,minimize,close setup looked quite
nice. In my mind, close,minimize,maximize looks less nice, but I could
be wrong.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Jeremy Bicha]

Aigars, the left-side change was not meant to affect the other themes,
that was a bug which has since been fixed. You can keep using your
right-side Human theme for Lucid.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Dmitrijs Ledkovs]

I've watched a screencast (long time ago sorry don't want to google it
up) from the guy who lead the design team behind Office 2007 ribbon
design. He showed a lot of data gathered from the Office 2003 "User
participation improvement programme", eye tracking and user test labs.

On particular aspect that applies to this situation was an example from
Outlook. The spreadsheet from a small subset (1 month of User
submissions) numbers were in about 200 000 range that Outlook users
click the toolbar button "detele" 7 times more often then the toolbar
button "send" (the data specifically was separating context menus, right
click menus and shortcuts).

So if we intrepolate "delete" -> "close window". And "send" -> "send to
taskbar / fullscreen" = close is a winner ;-)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Scott Todd]

Thanks Mark.

Personally, this is the second best solution, but a solution I can live
with.

And when trying to promote Ubuntu to others, at least I can say it is
like using a Mac, in this regard. I am hoping the upcoming changes which
make this necessary are worth it. I was waiting for LTS to give Ubuntu
to some people who don't like change, but the reasoning for this won't
become clear to them until they upgrade, in 2 years' time.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Colin D Bennett]

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:40:25 -
Dag Odenhall  wrote:

>  - the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise
> 
> Putting the most destructive action first. Wasn't the whole point to
> make it more sane for LTR reading?

Close may be ‘destructive’, but I would also say it is the most
frequently-used action.  I click the close button on nearly
every window I open, but I don't minimize or maximize every window.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Danimoth]

Just providing some data:
- I like the new positioning :). I fear i am the only one though.
- For the above reasons ( the 2nd part obviously) i think its a bad idea. 

Also, good thing there is an option to change it, but from my
experience, default dominates everything.

Now, for my personal note: just copying the "big mean closed-source OS" will 
lead linux to the top, but at a slow pace.
Risks like this might speed up or slow down the process. Time will tell... :)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Lasse Kärkkäinen]

The new order matches OS X, which is definitely a good thing (I wonder
why this wasn't stated as the reason).

While I highly dislike the decision, at least this order I can live
with. Otherwise it would had been distro or OS change time (not because
of the buttons alone, of course, but because the Ubuntu themes have been
getting uglier, every release after Hardy has been buggier than the one
before and because Ubuntu no longer is that dream distro that it used to
be).

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Jonathan Carter]

@Dag (#569)

Well, as Mark pointed out before, we really need more data before any
real solid good choices can be made.

Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether buttons should be ordered
according to whether they are most desctructive, or most used.
Personally, I spend more clicks on closing windows than minimizing and
maximizing or restoring them. I'm willing to bet that if if do a study,
you'll find that:

a. Most people also close windows more than any of the other window functions 
on the title bar
b. Most users would prefer having the most used actions from LTR if they are a 
LTR user

Additionally, if a user clicks on the close button accidentally, most
software will confirm the closing of the window if it's a potentially
destructive close. If not, it's a bug in that software.

I think this is one of those cases where Apple got it right, and I'm
glad that Canonical decided to make this change before release.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[hills]

Mark Shuttleworth:
> Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the right 
> of the window title bar.

Innovation at the cost of other very important features is wrong.
Whatever great innovation it is.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Dag Odenhall]

 - the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise

Putting the most destructive action first. Wasn't the whole point to
make it more sane for LTR reading?

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Aigars Mahinovs]

Just to clarify - on my current lucid system I can choose between human
theme that has buttons on the right and radiance theme with buttons on
the left.

Is the decision to switch all themes to left side buttons or will it
stay as it is now and this final part of the button order only applies
to the new themes (radiance and ambiance)?

I mean technically it looked like a great solution when old themes have
old button placement and the new themes have the new button placement
(whatever it may be) allowing people an easy choice.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[RagTimE]

very very bad idea this is it for me bye ubuntu

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[cornbread]

Gay


-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Apr 1, 2010 11:27 AM, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote: 

Thank you to everybody who has participated in this discussion.


The final decision on window controls for 10.04 LTS is as follows:


 - the window controls will remain on the left, however

 - the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise


The decision is based on the view that putting the close button in the

corner will be most familiar to many users, even if the particular

choice of corner is not.


For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a comment dependent on the date

:-)


Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the

right of the window title bar. We have some ideas, and others are

already springing up in the community. We welcome participation on the

Ayatana list, where those can play out. This will be a fruitful topic

for the design track at UDS in Brussels in May.


This bug is now marked wontfix. Please focus ongoing participation on

the opportunities for innovation that this opens up. The decision as to

the window controls location and order itself is now final, and as they

say in the old newspapers, no further correspondence will be entered

into.


** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)

   Status: Triaged => Won't Fix


** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)

 Assignee: (unassigned) => Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)


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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

Debian here I come.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Thank you to everybody who has participated in this discussion.

The final decision on window controls for 10.04 LTS is as follows:

 - the window controls will remain on the left, however
 - the order will change to be (from left) close, minimize, maximise

The decision is based on the view that putting the close button in the
corner will be most familiar to many users, even if the particular
choice of corner is not.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a comment dependent on the date
:-)

Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the
right of the window title bar. We have some ideas, and others are
already springing up in the community. We welcome participation on the
Ayatana list, where those can play out. This will be a fruitful topic
for the design track at UDS in Brussels in May.

This bug is now marked wontfix. Please focus ongoing participation on
the opportunities for innovation that this opens up. The decision as to
the window controls location and order itself is now final, and as they
say in the old newspapers, no further correspondence will be entered
into.

** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)
   Status: Triaged => Won't Fix

** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)
 Assignee: (unassigned) => Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Jef Spaleta]

Mark,
Have OEM customers given you valuable feedback on this specific design change? 

Can you sketch the process by which OEMs give you valuable feedback to
design decisions? Are OEM partners in the room while designers are
having private meetings? Do OEMs have a dedicated feedback mechanism
outside the publicly archived communication that external community use
to drive feedback?

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Anzan Hoshin]

Hi Mark,

Here's a thought: If the buttons are being moved and there is work going on
with notifications then what if the tootips that show for the buttons
included standard keybindings such as CTL+W?

It might help people to learn them and then not care where the buttons
are.

Anzan

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Oliver Joos]

@Mark: I just wrote a similar comment when I read yours - thank you.

I think Yann got the point. As I wrote in comment #514, the biggest
problem seems that button positions are a GLOBAL setting so that ALL
themes are affected. This takes away the freedom to choose. If the
button positions are set by a theme itself then the new themes could
have them left, and choosing other themes would put them right. Right?

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Bob Dole]

Pyramid, you should check out Fedora. I'm going to that on its next full
release, its design is more in line with what I'm looking for right out
the gate, this prevents me from having to change all the PC's I install
it on.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Please, Pako, and Pyramid, stop bickering in this bug. That is not
appropriate, nor constructive. You have different opinions, please leave
it at that.

Mark

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

"And here you breaking the policy of Ubuntu"

 Pot - kettle - black.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pako]

And here you breaking the policy of Ubuntu. And please stop saying that
will be hard for new users to adopt the layout or whatever the problem
they might have, that's why there are thousands of help channels,
forums, how to-s and even the help icon on panel. There is a wise
saying: Who want, will find a way. Who doesn't want, will find a reason.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

Pako Yes, I will hack my work PC that I don't own and I'm sure that
won't break corporate policy. Riiight.

No. The reason I don't want the menu button order and location changed
is because for the past 32 years (longer than many on here have been
alive I'm sure), I've used it the current way. As noted above by another
user, Gurkan said "Even I as an experienced computer user was annoyed."

You want them on the left? go left. I, and most people, want them on the
right.

Again, refer back to my idea of theme-driven.

Pako, you fail to realize that I am in the majority and you are treating
me with contempt and going on the offensive like I am doing something so
horribly wrong by wanting the same thing as the majority of users do. It
is the attitude like that, even more so than the button move, that will
drive users AWAY from Ubuntu.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pako]

Pyramid Technologies, You don't want to use Windows? The only reason
that you want buttons right was your Windows machine @ work. So you can
count on another alternative, simply revert the order of buttons on your
Windows machine to left and the problem is solved.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Gürkan Sengün]

The change of the buttons from the right to the left, with different order is a 
fatal change. 
Even I as an experienced computer user was annoyed. Having had a different 
them, where all
buttons look the same, even on mouse over. So it was unclar which button did 
close/maximize-minimize/hide...

Window Maker, having copied the design of NeXT/NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP (what Apple 
bought and made worse, design wise) was the best thing in my opinion. Having 
the close and hide buttons on the far right, far left,
so nobody could accidently slip and press the wrong button, saving the user 
from answering a stupid question like "are you sure you want to close the 
document without saving it"...

Please consider for the sake of consistent user experience keeping it as
it was.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Yann]

Well, after dailly updates, "dust" that was sticky to it's right buttons
origins is now left... Error or... will all default themes be now left,
not only new ones?

I think users may know about what's going on to make their decision to
continue or not: A lot of things already have to be setup by hand to
have a working machine: Codecs, libdvdcss, flash... but that's the
understandable country legislation dependant side of the customisation.

Concerning theses buttons, I'm really fed-up: So final decision welcome!

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Jef, it is certainly not the case that any OEM has directed these
changes. We do direct our original engineering to things that make
Ubuntu better for OEM customers, but we have complete independence as to
which way to lead Ubuntu. A lot of the OEM feedback is very valuable though.

Mark

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Jef Spaleta]

Mark,

It's not the case that such a hypothetical situation would be ironic? Or
are you saying that someone in this ticket is a paying support customer?
I'm not particular sure which of my sentences you are negating.

The intent was to get Pyramid to reassess the imprecise thinking about
whether the word "customer" actually applies in the way he intended it
implying that there are business market forces at work here in the
interaction between users and the design team.   There aren't.  And if
OEMs aren't paying for the changes, and end-users aren't paying for
it... then by process of elimination that makes you the customer who is
paying...and there is certainly no irony in that.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 31/03/10 19:07, Jefspa Leta wrote:
> Is anyone here... a customer? As in paying Canonical for anything? It
> would be very ironic if later it becomes known that these design changes
> were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners
> over the concerns of non-paying customers.
>   

That is quite definitely not the case.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pietro Battiston]

This is not a forum, guys. I humbly suggest opening a thread on Ubuntu
forums and stop spamming here.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@Jefspa

Is anyone a "customer" in the literal sense of money exchanging hands?
No, not to my knowledge. I guess I could have said "user", "customer"
"end-user", or "if A creates B and C uses it" ..it's all really
the same thing in the end. Rather than argue semantics, let's focus on
the points I made.

Yes, that would be actually ironic "if later it becomes known that these
design changes were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as
OEM partners over the concerns of non-paying customers." This is
diverting off-topic, but you bring up a point, so I'll respond to it

Microsoft and Yahoo partnered up with each other to form bing; and now
Canonical us changing the default search engine to Yahoo! because of
financial reasons. I get it. They need to make money to provide Ubuntu
for free. I have ZERO problem with them doing that because you can
easily change your default homepage, search engine, etc; but now if it
goes deeper than that, such as changes to the kernel, UI, we start
seeing ads popping up, I think that is a different animal. There isn't a
black and white absolute on what is acceptable and what is not, except
as each person decides for themselves what that is for them.

Again, off-topic, I apologize. I don't want to derail this, but you DO
and DID bring up a valid, possible point. There are most certainly
things going on behind the scenes of which we are not fully aware.
Perhaps this is why the uber-secret mystical "features" of 10.10 have
not (or cannot legally be) stated publicly.. or maybe it's just some
twist on E.E.E. or F.U.D. I don't know.

@scholli

Yes, we disagree. and that's ok. I welcome insights from all, even
if I don't agree with them. I do think the idea of making the buttons in
the current order on the right-hand side like they currently are; and
then have everything theme-driven with the option to change to left
(with the new button order) or to leave it "as is" in the current order
and location on the right; is really the best way to do things. gconf,
etc are just hacks that will break the UI.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Jefspa Leta]

Pyramid Technologies 545 :

Is anyone here... a customer? As in paying Canonical for anything? It
would be very ironic if later it becomes known that these design changes
were in fact prompted in part by paying customers such as OEM partners
over the concerns of non-paying customers.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

@ Piramid :)

I will link out here. I don't wont have here a only 3-man-threat. We
have a completely different way to see the stuff. I respect it, but it's
not mine. bye

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@piko

No mistreatment meant.

Demands? No. Not at all. You are free to code as you wish, but any
company or entity that ignores the majority of it's customer base, is
doomed to fail. I think the majority of users (based on my own data
gathering from view blog posts, websites, etc) is in favor of the way
things currently are. Proceed at your own peril, that's all. Code as you
will.

Yes, there is a "patch", but again, this does not change any button
effects such as drop shadow. Also, what will this do to applications and
themes? Break them or work flawlessly?

I know about Kubuntu. No, I don't want to use Windows. No, I don't want
to emulate Windows (nor do I wish to emulate Mac). I want the placements
to remain "as is" unless there is good cause and reason to change it
around otherwise. (Also, KDE uses more overhead than Gnome does.)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pako]

@Pyramid Technologies I have a feeling that you just started to mistreat
us and I think that your demands are immodest, because there is already
a patch that allows switching the buttons easily. Kubuntu would be ideal
distro for you, the GUI is almost identical with Windows.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@scholli

"Wrong Pyramid. Microsoft will include a new feature, because it's
really better and if they are unsure the will insert a option for redo
this change to old habits."

We shall see if Office 2010 has the ribbon UI, the old UI, or the ribbon
U with an option to revert, which Office 2007 does not have. MS
Implemented the ribbon UI without the option to revert and withouth
forethought on how it would affect the end-user...so it is the case with
10.04 and these stupid button's order/placement.

"The same happens here. We have a change, but you are always free to
redo it if you wish it.'

If I wanted to constantly have to tweak and "fix" my OS, I'd use
Windows, not Linux.

"The mistakes of Microsoft are that they made very complex changes ...
this isn't the case here."

I have a feeling that it will be very complex for the average user to
switch over easily from right to left, with the new order of the
buttons.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

@ Webster:

" + - X "  ...  " ^ v X "  ...  " [ ] _ X "  is obviously the same and
the most used symbols I saw over the last years in Windows-decorations
in gnome-look.org for example.

"^" means simply: up - bigger - grow
"v" means oviously: down - small - minimize

The next is the design-issue... put "v" and "^" together and you will
get a "X". It contains more consistency than " + - X "  ... " [ ] _ X "
if we look critical over it.

Last but not least ... Imagine that " [ ] _ X " in a round button. You
think it will looks fine?

But it's true. " ^ v X " is the first time I see in a default theme.
Peoples who aren't familiar in changing the default-look will have to
accustom to this new kind of symbols (for them), too.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Tim Webster]

Gui inconsistency bug. 

1) Notice the sub window tabs close on the right side and the main
window closes on the left side.

Either change all the sub window tabs or change the main window.

2) Icons must be intuitive

What does "^" represent?

 __
|__| is clearly maximize

What does "v" represent?

__ is clearly minimize

3) The size of the "^", "v", "x" is too small and only occupy a small
space within the circles.

This is critical usability bug!!

4) It is the standard across multiple OS to place the main window controls at 
the right. 
Please do NOT make this change if upstream window managers are unwilling to 
acept
window control icons move the the left.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

Wrong Pyramid. Microsoft will include a new feature, because it's really
better and if they are unsure the will insert a option for redo this
change to old habits. The same happens here. We have a change, but you
are always free to redo it if you wish it. The mistakes of Microsoft are
that they made very complex changes ... this isn't the case here. In
Germany we say: "don't convert a mosquito to a elephant!" ,)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

What do you think would happen if Microsoft said "We're doing away with
the Start Menu and Taskbar we've had since 1995. we're going to
implement the Ribbon interface instead."

I can guarantee that the corporate users would not deal with that change
at all. Companies would balk about the learning curve, how it breaks
this or that, etc. Home users would complain to the ends of the Earth,
switch to Mac, refuse to upgrade (like the last hardcore hold-outs for
XP are doing now), etc.

Livid Lynx...sorry... Lucid Lynx is fast becoming the "Vista with the
Ribbon UI" in the minds of many I believe.

Mar. Canonical. LEARN from Microsoft's mistakes.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

Work with Windows @ work and work with Ubuntu @ home it's not stringent 
necessary to put them on the right. I have to respect that it's confusing for 
some peoples, mostly for elder persons, okay. At other side there are many 
peoples in the world who can handle it easily. They say maybe, like me: "hey 
Windows is this kind, Ubuntu is that kind - Finish." The most important reason 
is that Ubuntu get something different and gains a new own identity at the 
first sight. The next, I am curios, is what the new feature will be in 10.10. 
For this it's necessary to put them left as default and let peoples change it 
easily to right if they prefer that more.
First step for accustom ... Right as default in Lucid, what you prefer, isn't a 
enough clear message for the folk outside. And we have to begin with the 
training now ... ,)

@ Mike:

No frustrating... said this from James, it will come. Wait... I am
updating right now. Maybe it's inside?!

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Mike Rushton]

@dashua There is no option to "reverse the button layout" in the
appearance settings off the bat. The only time I have seen this option
come up is if you pick either of the two new themes and then manually
edit the gconf settings to change the buttons to be on the right side.
At this point if you go back into the appearance settings and pick the
other of the two new themes it will put the icons back on the
wrong(left) side, tell you that the theme was made for buttons to be on
the wrong(left) side and THEN give you the option to revert the buttons
back to the way you had previously set them up using gconf.

It would be nice if they gave us the option to move the icons to either
side regardless of where they are set currently and regardless of what
theme has been selected.

It would be even nicer if they would just concentrate on improving user
experience instead of frustrating it for no valid reason.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pako]

scholli, you'll answer the question that Mr. above ask, or you let me do
that?

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

Addendum: By default, everything should be on the right and in the
normal order. As for the ambiguous never-clarified-changes Mark has
mentioned for 10.010, those should move with the theme selected as well.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@scholli Perhaps you have hit on it right there. Make every theme work
either with the wacked out max,min,close now on the left OR the proper
min,max,close on the right like 95% of the World's computer users are
used to.

I know about the "Dust" theme, but I don't care fo it and I don't want
to be locked into one theme or a limited number of it.

That being said, how would something like this affect applications?
Would changing the theme also change button order/location for each
application on the PC as well? IF so, then that would be wonderful
because then no hacks would be needed and it could be theme-driven and
the user could choose.

For those of us who use Ubuntu @ home as our only OS, but must work on
Windows @ work, we could have it as max,min,close now on the right.

For those who use Macs and Ubuntu, they can have it the other way on the
left.

Now like I said, if it's a global-theme-based change that affects all
applications etc, that'd be cool, and in that way, I CAN support such a
change. I believe that the current way of gconf editing may break
things, or at least cause wacked out drop shadow effects, etc.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[James Schriver]

On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 20:23 +, scholli wrote:
> @ last inscribers:
> 
> right click on screen - click on "change appearance and background" -
> choose the theme-tab - choose a theme like "Dust" ... have fun with
> right.
> 
> 
> Ambiance and Radiance have a unique good look with left. I am associating 
> Ubuntu with left - max,min,close now. Would be sad to lose this WIN ...
> Make perhaps a right-buttons version of the light-themes (no default) and 
> everybody will be happy. Peoples can accustom for 10.10, 11.04, ... ,)
> 

@scholli

There is now an option in gnome-appearance-properties to "Reverse The
Button Layout" is specified by the theme.  Simply clicking on that will
send the maximize, minimize, and close icons to the right.  The button
layouts are now specified in the index theme.  The new themes will work
flawlessly with custom layouts (trough corruption) as soon as the
metacity patch lands and compiz is rebuilt.  Dust was just updated to
support this as well along with many other nice tweaks. 

Regards,

dashua

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

@ last inscribers:

right click on screen - click on "change appearance and background" -
choose the theme-tab - choose a theme like "Dust" ... have fun with
right.


Ambiance and Radiance have a unique good look with left. I am associating 
Ubuntu with left - max,min,close now. Would be sad to lose this WIN ...
Make perhaps a right-buttons version of the light-themes (no default) and 
everybody will be happy. Peoples can accustom for 10.10, 11.04, ... ,)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

Mark, clearly there MUST be enough data here by now, on the Internet in
general, etc, to make a sound decision and back it up with clear and
concise data. Right now this is taking a play right out of ex-president
Bush's playbook... "Stay the course". If we see a "Mission Accomplished"
sigh unveiled before the release, we know the boat is sunk.

I won't request to get any data from you or the UI team as to what
changes (exactly or conceptually) are in mind for the right-hand space,
I've given up on that. I'm trying really hard to not give up on Ubuntu
as I've been a loyal user for years. I'll stick around until the release
and see what transpires; but I'm not going to hack gconf and other
things to try and counter what is done by default for such a major thing
such as the button order and location. I spent way too many years
fighting Microsoft and Windows, I'm just too tired of it all.

I've been working with computers since age 11 in 1978 -  (32 years and
counting now at age 43), and I'm perhaps a bit on the lazy and jaded
side. I'm too used to things the way they are to switch. I'm pretty open
to change, but some things that are and have been the core foundation of
many OSes and GUIs, yeah... I'm not going to change that in myself. I'm
too used to it the way it is and I LIKE it there anyway.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Otto Kekäläinen]

The post #71 by Matthias Klumpp has many valid points. I really hope you
could at least postpone this design change to Lucid+1, otherwise there
is a great risk that we'll be stuck with a big annoyance in a LTS
release.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Flabdablet]

You're a smart man, Mark, but this decision is wrong. Moving standard
controls around without an obviously compelling reason to do so is
madness, as is encouraging your design team to ignore overwhelming user
dissatisfaction. A spiffy aubergine paint job won't sell cars whose
clutch, brake and accelerator pedals have been shuffled about and
mounted in the passenger-side footwell.

This is Linux for Marketroids, not human beings.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[CinCout]

The new design will annoy new users who want to move from Windows to
Ubuntu, which is the best GNU/Linux distro to recommend to partially
tech users, even if it is not ready for mass consumption yet.

gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string
":minimize,maximize,close"

This command is cited as an "easy workaround" to the design. Sure
copying and pasting commands is the easiest way to do complicated things
for proficient computer users, but most people are scared of the 'black'
screen. And the method that Google suggests also would put most people
off (using gconf-editor). It should be really easy to change to the way
most people want (are used to). Unfortunately the people who will be
stuck with this design are the helpless non-tech people who you are
trying to reach out to.

It's true that it's hard to accidentally close the window in its new
position, but sometimes you have to close a lot of windows and the
corner is easiest, like in KDE where if you click  in that region the
window closes. I think, the corner that you normally don't click near is
best. I sometimes click File >> Quit to exit an application because I
have a widescreen, and the X button, is way too far over sometimes,
however File >> Quit is the best way (except for CTRL + Q) to close all
the windows of the same application, so the X on the left doesn't help.
However it is impossible to close the window when the mouse is over on
the right with your design. When I read an article I move the mouse over
to the right to get it out of the way, as it is more likely to annoy me
on the left where I know the text is. It is easier for right-handers to
swoop their hand to the right, than to the left when using a touchpad on
a laptop. In Amarok, my mouse is always on the right when I'm about to
close it. With small windows, it doesn't matter where the _+X buttons
are, except for the fact that the window has no icon in the new design.

The reason that this works on the Mac is because the File Menu is
separated from the window when not maximized. Here is the situation when
it is maximized:

 @ Finder File Edit
X - +

 + - X
File Edit

As you can see, there is a good chance that when you click edit that you
will close the window; the worst that will happen in Mac is that you
will click @.

Also you could move the the min/max buttons away from the X like in KDE,
I have on occasion closed a window when meaning to maximize it.


I commend you trying to innovate and trying to move the computing paradigm 
forward, but all your going to get is a lot of complaints. This is going to be 
a huge talking point when it comes to Ubuntu, and it won't be positive. It's 
not worth it for something so trivial.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Greg Merchan]

Thank you, Ludwik, for recognizing that students are supposed to be
learning new things. This is too often forgotten and in fact there are
university classes in the US devoted to slavish memorization of
Microsoft applications. I would say that teachers and administrators
should be even more adaptable than the students and that computers are
tools of their professions which they should learn to use well. I've
observed many of my colleagues treat computers as annoying conveniences
(an oxymoron, eh?) instead of tools - or perhaps they like to blame
their tools?

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Ludwik Trammer]

I hope my post doesn't violate Mark's suggestion to "only add comments
to this bug if they are adding data that could guide a decision".

I just wanted to say that I work as the IT person in High School in
Warsaw, Poland, which uses Ubuntu on it's computers exclusively. I just
learned about this proposed change and all I know is that it would make
my life much more difficult.

We've got three primary groups of users:

1. Teachers. They use school computers for printing learning materials
and for last-minute research during the breaks. While teaching classes
they use our laptops for presentations and showing things of the
Internet. Most of them work in more then one school and use Windows at
home. Time is crucial for them - not being able to  accomplish a task in
time might mean being late for their own class, not brining in the
materials or wasting time during the class. Most of them already hate
the fact that our computers don't always respond the way they expect
them to, and that things are in different places they are used to. I
think often they just feel lost. I can only imagine what would happen if
some day the close button "disappeared". I expect having to talk to lots
of annoyed people who "can't close the window".

2. School administration. There will be a lot of confusion at the
beginning, and additional work for me, especially since some people
working in administrative positions are on the older side, but after
couple of weeks it should stabilize. Those people work with Ubuntu full
time, so it's easier to change their habits.

3. Students. They are supposed to learn new things, so in their case I
don't feel as bad. On the other hand I want them to have good feelings
about Ubuntu, and I don't want them to be annoyed by it. Beides computer
labs lessons they use school computer in a very similar fashion as
teachers - they print their home-works, do some research, and menage to
squeeze some Facebook in between. They also sometimes seems to feel lost
in the Ubuntu interface (there are some very clear pain points, but it's
a topic for another post). I have to answer the "Why don't we use
Windows, like all other schools?" question couple of times a year.

For those reasons I'm very excited about usability improvements promised
by Ubuntu. Unfortunately this particular change seems to go in the
oposite direction I personally envisioned. I guess the main premise of
my post is "Ubuntu shouldn't be only for people who installed in on
their main machine, feel passionate about it and are willing to change
their habits. There are also people who come to work and just want to
print a school test for their students".

Some people might want to ask me: "why don't you just modify your custom
install script to change this particular Ubuntu behavior?". That's a
very valid question. Maybe I will. I will have to think about it if this
change remains in 10.04. My previous policy was not to modify Ubuntu's
UI and it's behavior. The premise was to teach students the real,
original Ubuntu, to make the learning curve for people who might want to
use it on their personal computers as smooth as possible.

PS: We are looking for somebody who could give or sell cheaply 9
computers and monitors to a NGO-run civic High School in Poland, for our
computer lab ;) They can be second-hand, just need to run current Ubuntu
smoothly. Sorry for that, but those days I tend to ask most people I
meet ;) Some of our current hardware is very outdated and not in a very
good shape.

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Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Anzan Hoshin]

On 30 March 2010 11:57, Pyramid Technologies  wrote:

> Secret Future Ubuntu User Interface Plans Revealed!
> http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/44121
>
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>


Actually, this is interesting:

Workflow and Upload: two new button concepts for Lucid
http://www.design-by-izo.com/2010/03/29/workflow-and-upload-two-new-button-concepts-for-lucid/comment-page-1/#comment-307

Sincerely etc,
Anzan

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

Secret Future Ubuntu User Interface Plans Revealed!
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/44121

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[scholli]

Steve it's a nice work you did. But is IOGraphica do the same with the
heats, is more exactly (continuous and not every 5 seconds) and show the
ways you did with the mouse. But in the end it's maybe a good script for
a long time data collect. So I think it's great, too. Thanks.

Maybe a notice with the attached picture like: "buttons left, heats 5
hours, left since 1 week." would be nice for a complete data-collecting.
More details ... more datas you win from it. ,)

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pyramid Technologies]

@scholli Sorry. I must not be a "key person" aka Developer God, so my
opinion doesn't count I guess. I tried Lucid at an early stage, waited,
then downloaded the latest one like I said. I only use Linux every day,
install it on people's machines for my friends and business customers,
support and promote it (by the way, I said "Linux".. not JUST "Ubuntu".)

@jefspa "Have you been running Karmic?"

No. Karmic was bad for me. I had 9.04 on my laptop, upgraded, and then
neither video or compiz would work, so I reformatted it, installed 9.10
without upgrading it, and whle that fixed the video, compiz still didn't
work. I reformatted once again, put 9.04 back on it and everything works
great. I left my desktop alone because I will only use LTS+1 on that, so
it won't be upgraded until 10.04.1LTS or if things don't change, I'll
just go straight Debian.

"My understanding that the GDM customization issue you refer to was
introduced when moving to GDM 2.26 from 2.20 because of the refactoring
of upstream GDM the original gdmconfig no longer works. Ubuntu skipped
several upstream releases of GDM to avoid regressions due to the
refactoring...but you can't wait forever and GDM was finally updated
again in the run up to Karmic's released introducing the configuration
regression."

So how then does one use GDM themes / login screens in 10.x?

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Steven]

** Attachment added: "My heat map"
   http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42498130/heat.jpg

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Steven]

** Attachment added: "Mouse data collected using previous script"
   http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42498092/mousepos.txt

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Steven]

** Attachment added: "Script for generating the "heat-map" from collected data"
   http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42498022/heatmap.py

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Steven]

Hi, after Mark's comment I "wrote" a two (quite brutal) python scripts
that:

1) prints the mouse position to a file every 5 seconds (the output can the be 
redirected to a file)
2) generates an "heat mat" (a sort of, actually only red is used) from the 
previous file

I used the first script for about two hours and half, while using
firefox, pigin and gedit to write the second script.

I'm attaching all the work, the two scripts, the data collected and the
"heat map".

Maybe someone else may be interested in collecting some other data.


For script 1:
be sure to install python and python-xlib
I ran it using: ./mousepos.py | tee -a mousepos.txt 
(remember to chmod +x) 

For script 2:
You should set your resolution and file name on the first lines.
Then just run ./heatmap.py and heat.jpg will be produced

HTH

** Attachment added: "Script for collecting mouse position over time"
   http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42497925/heatmap.py

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Jan Nekvasil]

If this can be considered as a valid data, I for myself _strongly_
disliked the change at first, but gave it a try (that's what the
development version is for). After few days I get pretty used to it, and
now I can't imagine having the buttons on the right (pun, pun) side. The
key benefits for me are:

* less mouse movement indeed
* better orientation - all control elements AND the title are nicely grouped 
together
* much cleaner look (that's totally the matter of personal taste)

Nevertheless, I will keep the old button layout on my mom's laptop in
the future, unless she ask me to do otherwise (I'm a good son, You
know).

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Pako]

@Josh Vermaas But surely he will want you to show them the possibilities
Ubuntu can do, in that moment when he find out that the sides are
alterable and he can choose any of them, he would never return to
Windows.

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[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment

[Yann]

@Jefspa Leta:

Thanks for the underlying information... It's right that having
background from default theme is not so nice to see when you don't want
mauve colors on your desk and have removed default background, even if
this no more a fundamental deal-breaker for ubuntu choice.

I read some would like to make this configurable using an interface... But 
maybe something more simple could be done:
-Configure gdm login background according to proposed (or last) login user 
theme background... because these are usually synchronised by users so we could 
imo avoid creating another config and do this automatically.
-Use a default neutral login theme, black or grey colors for instance, that 
will be convenient whatever user theme will be.

But that's no more usability concerns, just fine cosmetics ;o)

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