Re: Request for removing clutter in current form
Don't forget that the composited desktop itself on Linux still has some inherent flaws. Like that whole video garbage thing, that still shows glitches in OpenOffice even on Fedora 11 on an Intel 965, and leaves KDE out in the cold. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/254468 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170462 Or that you run into problems on some intel cards with 3D composited desktops and multimonitor setups. (Due to the 2048x2048 problem). Or glitches in TV output. Or that UXA is still undergoing stabilization. There are many potential hurdles besides mere drivers with a composited desktop on Linux. I will enjoy trying the composited GNOME Shell myself. But I'm expecting the first real release that hits users (in Ubuntu and Fedora) to have all the polish of a KDE 4.0.x. There's no way the myriad plethora of subtle Linux bugs in desktop composition can be fixed in time. As an aside, can accelerated Clutter UI still work outside of a composited X server? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for removing clutter in current form
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Jason D. Clintonm...@jasonclinton.com wrote: This has been fixed for quite some time including on KDE so out in the cold would be false hyperbole. I apologize. Referring to the video garbage issue, by reading the two bug reports I linked I can still see people who respond saying the issue isn't fixed on their cards. I still notice the video garbage issue with OpenOffice myself under Fedora 11/GNOME. I'm using UXA with an Intel 965. Or that you run into problems on some intel cards with 3D composited desktops and multimonitor setups. (Due to the 2048x2048 problem). Or glitches in TV output. Compiz locks up my screen whenever I use the Magnifier plugin with a TV output source enabled (though that one probably needs a bug filed). I still get strange video garbage in gtk-window-decorate and Firefox at times, when resuming from standby. It's such a transient bug that I never even think of helping to track it down (Who'd believe me, anyway?) but it's a bother too. Or that UXA is still undergoing stabilization. UXA has been considered stable since at least Intel 2.5.0. There have been three point releases since then. There have been other issues but 2.8.0 is rock-solid. As for UXA, perhaps a better term would have been optimization. Keith Packard says in his blog (Sharpening the Intel Driver Focus) that the recent advent of UXA and kernel modesetting has led to some performance regressions in X, and I believe him even without various posts and anecdoctes on the planet blogs about driver slowdown compared to XAA. I consider Fedora to be pretty up with the times, so I imagine my laptop is a representation of the near-current state of X. His post is from April, so perhaps I'm behind the times. I am curious where you got all your mis-information. If you could, could you pass along these answers to wherever it is that you heard all of this incorrect information? Doing so will help us nip some of this hysteria in the bud. Pardon my nitpicking, but you dismantled my post point-by-point, so I felt compelled to respond in turn. I don't mean for it to be hysteria, but I sympathize with anyone who says this stuff isn't great. My personal Linux graphics experience is improving, but to say it's great right now is a bit of a long shot. Pretty darn good compared to what it used to be, certainly. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for removing clutter in current form
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Jud Craft craft...@gmail.com wrote: Don't forget that the composited desktop itself on Linux still has some inherent flaws. Like that whole video garbage thing, that still shows glitches in OpenOffice even on Fedora 11 on an Intel 965, and leaves KDE out in the cold. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/254468 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170462 This has been fixed for quite some time including on KDE so out in the cold would be false hyperbole. Or that you run into problems on some intel cards with 3D composited desktops and multimonitor setups. (Due to the 2048x2048 problem). Or glitches in TV output. I believe that Owen Taylor, the lead developer of GNOME Shell, is doing his development on an older Intel card with exactly this texture size limitation without any issues. Or that UXA is still undergoing stabilization. UXA has been considered stable since at least Intel 2.5.0. There have been three point releases since then. There have been other issues but 2.8.0 is rock-solid. There are many potential hurdles besides mere drivers with a composited desktop on Linux. What are they? Drivers and LTSP are the only two that have been raised and both have been addressed in previous discussions on d-d-l. I will enjoy trying the composited GNOME Shell myself. But I'm expecting the first real release that hits users (in Ubuntu and Fedora) to have all the polish of a KDE 4.0.x. There's no way the myriad plethora of subtle Linux bugs in desktop composition can be fixed in time. As an aside, can accelerated Clutter UI still work outside of a composited X server? Yes, Gnometris in GNOME Games 2.27.92 and libchamplain (contacts on a map) in Empathy 2.27.92, both of which use a Clutter UI, work just fine outside of a compositor. GNOME Shell+mutter *is* a compositor, though. I am curious where you got all your mis-information. If you could, could you pass along these answers to wherever it is that you heard all of this incorrect information? Doing so will help us nip some of this hysteria in the bud. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for removing clutter in current form
On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 11:24 -0500, Jason D. Clinton wrote: Or that you run into problems on some intel cards with 3D composited desktops and multimonitor setups. (Due to the 2048x2048 problem). Or glitches in TV output. I believe that Owen Taylor, the lead developer of GNOME Shell, is doing his development on an older Intel card with exactly this texture size limitation without any issues. if not Owen, I am definitely using a 915 with that limitation (and others). :-) we do have a performance drop when compositing a GL application within a GL-based compositor under DRI2; driver developers, X developers, Clutter developers and Mutter/GNOME Shell developers are aware of this - and we are working towards fixing the issue - as Moblin (another user of Mutter and much more relying on compositing Clutter-based applications) as well as GNOME Shell will benefit from the fix. obviously, on top of this, performance work on Clutter never stops. ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for removing clutter in current form
On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 11:36 -0400, Jud Craft wrote: Or that you run into problems on some intel cards with 3D composited desktops and multimonitor setups. (Due to the 2048x2048 problem). Or glitches in TV output. Wasn't this limitation bumped to 4096x4096 on i915 (newer hardware have double that IIRC)? [0] There's still a limit, but I think shatter [1] is planned to resolve this. 0. http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21190 1. http://www.mail-archive.com/x...@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01772.html -- Cheers, Sven Arvidsson http://www.whiz.se PGP Key ID 760BDD22 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Request for removing clutter in current form
On the topic of visual garbage, I've read over all of the relevant Qt posts again for 4.6, and I do admit that it certainly seems fixed upstream [1]. My mistake for being underinformed, although the comments on bugs.kde.org and Ubuntu launchpad means that I suppose it hasn't trickled down yet, or perhaps there are other redrawing issues. I will say, however - and this is not really relating to GTK or Qt - that OpenOffice still suffers on my PC. Maybe they could use a bug report... And sincerely, excellent luck. I am looking forward to new GNOME development. [1] http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/06/10/smooth-and-solid-resizing-on-x11/ The same fix for window resizing glitches and window repainting should also work for -opening- windows, so I guess that's it. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
